Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shrike on May 09, 2001, 04:23:00 pm
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Today's topic is our favorite supership, the GTVA Colossus.
The general sentiment is that the Colossus was a big waste of time, energy and money. Now, was it really? Note that this discussion is not about the tactis of the GTVA or their competence, and also assumes the Colossus is fully operational at the time of it's deployment.
Firstly, we'll look at the cost of the Colossus and compare it to other GTVA ships. As an example, the cost of constructing an Orion 'far outweighs the cost of paying its crew for 3 years.' This was during the T-V war, so obviously advances such as beam cannons haven't been factored in. However, there's no mention of how big the crew of an Orion is. For arguments sake, I am going to assume that the newer Hecate, with it's crew complement of 10,000 is roughly of the same cost relative to it's crew.
So for some low/medium/high values with wages arbitrarily set at 25k per person, we come out with:
3.5 years worth - 0.875 billion credits
5 years worth - 1.25 billion credits
10 years worth - 2.5 billion credits
For the purposes of this debate I am going to use the median value of 1.25 billion credits
Now, if we go and look at the Colossus we get a couple different values that we can use to attempt to get a rough cost.
- HP = 10x Hecate
- Hull volume > 12 Lucifer destroyers
- Firepower > 5 Orions
- General FRED 'impression' of size relative to the Hecate.
So after looking at this, I'm going to provide three possible values, knowing that generally speaking, weaponry and electronics contribute a greater proportion of the final cost than does structure. However, the Colossus, due to it's sheer size, likely has a bit of a 'cost multiplier' if you will.
Low: 8x cost = 10 billion credits
Medium: 12x cost = 15 billion credits
High: 15x cost = 18.75 billion credits
Now, it must be remembered that this is just cost to construct a Colossus class ship. It does not cover R&D, something which is even harder to pin down, and is also rarely for just one specific purpose. In all likelyhood, R&D done for the Colossus was later applied in the Hecates as well. So for these purposes it will be ignored.
Now, even 10 billion may seem like a lot, however, simply as a fighter carrier the Colossus carries 4x the fighter complement of a Hecate.
Therefore, it starts to look like this:
4 Hecates = 5 billion credits
1 Colossus = 15 billion credits
Still 3x the cost but not so bad. Then we can start to factor crew in.
4 Hecates = 4x 10,000 crew -> 1 billion per year
1 Colossus = 30,000 crew -> 0.75 billion per year
At 20 years, it looks like this:
4 Hecates = 25 billion credits
1 Colossus = 30 billion credits
Much closer, in fact. Obviously, if the cost of a Hecate is higher/lower compared to a Colossus and also relative to their crew salaries, it'd grossly throw this out.
Now, you might be saying "well 4 Hecates are still cheaper."
A Colossus in a fleet engagement is 2.5 times as survivable as all 4 Hecates put together, and is effectively invulnerable to fighter strikes, and nearly immune to all but the largest fleets. It can also increase it's firepower to incredibly high level (High Noon) at the cost of significant component damage. However, even at default the Colossus design can more than fend for itself even against an entire enemy fleet. Tactically, the Colossus is more efficient, but is also less flexible on a strategic level, due to it's size. It can also only be present in one system, while 4 Hecates can cover 4 seperate systems. Thus Colossus deployment necessitates a different set of tactical and strategic conditions than one/several Hecates.
So there you have it. Over the short term, constructing a Colossus is very expensive, however, that can also be spread out over at least 10 fiscal years. When in actual service, it is essentially unkillable except due to extenuating circumstances.
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My personal belief is they should have used the Collossus to blockade the unclosed jump node instead of sending it in as a distraction. It's a good ship in the right circumstances but against a Sathanas multiple stikes simultaneously by destroyers would make more sense. As it's been said many times before, th Collossus was designed for fighting many smaller ships/Lucifer not a ship that's an equal in size.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
When in actual service, it is essentially unkillable except due to extenuating circumstances.
read --> Shivans (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Temporal Mechanics ("http://www.fs2temp-mech.co.uk")
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Sathanas: See Outside Context Problem
Outside Context Problem: Something that most civilizations encounter only once, in the same way a sentence encounters a period.
And there you have it....NOTHING could have stopped a fully operational Sathanas.
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Alpha 1 did (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Temporal Mechanics ("http://www.fs2temp-mech.co.uk")
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with the help of the Colossus...
And if that Sathanas had really been escorted properly (I didn't really want to discuss tactics but...) he wouldn't have gotten close enough.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
Sathanas: See Outside Context Problem
Outside Context Problem: Something that most civilizations encounter only once, in the same way a sentence encounters a period.
And there you have it....NOTHING could have stopped a fully operational Sathanas.
Did you mean Sathanas or Colossus couldn't be stopped when fully operational?
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If you take anything else than a sathanas, I stay assured that nothing can stop the colossus. You would require a huge fleet, with multiple very big capships (Orions), and it's hardly possible to deploy such a fleet. And then don't forget that the Colossus should not be deployed on it's own ( I always found that weird that it did not have a proper escort). And when you have all your big fleet deployed to take one a single one, prepare yourself to be severly outflanked by other ships...
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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You must also remember one of the most significant factors on the approval of the Colossus Project: the economical repercussions. Though the project was classified, it involves several contractors, who obviously subcontracted other companies and individuals, generating astounding amounts of revenue and financial movement on an economy that was on the verge of collapse - right after it's two main centers had been "removed": Earth and Vasuda Prime.
It played a major role on the reconstruction of the Terran and Vasudan societies, and served as motivation and proving ground for the development of new technologies - beyond already working as a huge motivator for the general people of the GTVA. Knowing that you have a six kilometer long ship armed to the teeth ready to defend you in case of a threat can surely boost morale. And in comparison, it was way more powerful than anything the GTVA had ever seen up to it's concept. It wasn't designed just to defeat the Lucifer - it was designed to do way more than that. The problem was just that the Shivans already had something better than it.
And on another note, who knows if, had the GTVA built something bigger and better than the Colossus, the Shivans would have deployed better weapons to counteract it?
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Yeah....but remember the project was classified level Rho. So there was the economic benefit of building the infrastructure, etc, but at the same token, before it was built, people didn't know it was under construction.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
Sathanas: See Outside Context Problem
Outside Context Problem: Something that most civilizations encounter only once, in the same way a sentence encounters a period.
I think we've been reading the same books by Ian Banks =)
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So you recognize my title, hmmmm?
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If the shivans can make a fleet of 80 or so sathanas (and I doubt all sath were here, why would they risk to sacrify all their juggernauts?), I bet shivans can (and have) make things you don't even imagine, otherwise, they just have countless sathanas (one or the other, please choose (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) )
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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Actually, the Colossus was not classified in the sense that you're assuming here.
Khonsu II created a proclamation to the entire GTVA over the creation of the Colossus.
Every man, woman, and child in the alliance knew of the vessel since many primary spaceyard systems *literally* became workhorses for the Colossus project. (Vasuda, Antares, Beta Aquilae)
What *was* classified level Rho was the state of completion of the project, the spaceyard locations, component devices, etc.
Everyone knew there was a Colossus, they knew the billions of credits poured into it, they didn't know where it was being built. (it could have been one of dozens of spaceyards in Vasuda, Antares, Beta Aquilae, Alpha Centuari, etc.)
The Colossus more than likely was transferred between spaceyards often to ensure it's safety from sabotauge, terrorism, and in the final months of it's spaceborne testing, the NTF.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Could the Colossus be able to punch though lucy shielding? I've been wondering that for a while and decided to ask that. What happens if it doesn't?
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It's toast!...
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Originally posted by Shrike:
So you recognize my title, hmmmm?
Maybe I should start building models for Culture ships... > (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) A GCU would easily be a match for a Sathanas, or even a few. Especially since they have shields. Effector Arrays, CAM dusting, my my. =)
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Pah.....A GCU would walk through everything that the FS universe could throw at it, never mind sending a ROU or militarized GSV.
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I have no idea of what you're talking about...
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Originally posted by Shrike:
Pah.....A GCU would walk through everything that the FS universe could throw at it, never mind sending a ROU or militarized GSV.
Yeah.. but watching the Sleeper Service deploy its instant fleet (just add water) in FS2 would be pretty awesome =)
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Thank you Shrike for making a realistic look at the Colossus!
I look at it three ways:
1) The Colossus was a symbol of Terran/Vasudan Accomplishment. The ship helped win the NTF rebellion by demoralizing the enemy, and boosting allied moral.
2) It boosted the economies of both species and provided jobs for all of those unemployed after The Great War.
3) It was a viable warship that fell only to the largest of the Shivan vessels that obviously outclassed it. Most of the Shivan vessels outclass their GTVA counterparts anyways (except the Moloch) so the Lucifer performed to design specfications and even surpassed them.
Not a blunder. A good move.
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Now that we have that out of the way, we can follow it along to the logical conclusion; Should the GTVA build one or more replacement vessels?
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Since they already know about the multiple Saths, I don't think they'd be willing to throw money at another Colossus.
Probably build a lot of smaller ships instead.
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Or just have a gun platform like the Golgotha in BWO which is much less expensive than the Collosus, and have a smaller crew. Also, it would hopefully be less expensive. It would have a large support fleet, perhaps made up of only cruisers and corvettes, as the weapons platform would be able to take care of larger threats.
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- Arnav Manchanda
ICQ: 6228797
Creator of Technological Superiority: http://jupiterhq.tripod.com ("http://jupiterhq.tripod.com")
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The problem is, anything smaller than a Colossus would get eaten alive by a Ravana.
If you assume that they're not going to develop the kind of obscenely powerful weapon that is the meson cannon, something the size of the Colossus is the only thing that could take on Shivan fleets and survive intact.
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Well, then the escort fleet should go into position first, take out the defenders, and then sortie the big gun. Risky, yes, but bang for buck. The ship shouldn't be a stick-around type, hit and run.
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- Arnav Manchanda
ICQ: 6228797
Creator of Technological Superiority: http://www.3dap.com/hlp/techsup ("http://jupiterhq.tripod.com")
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In my own opinion, I think the GTVA should not spend more credits on another Colossus or some other giant capital ship. They should instead spend it on building more smaller ships like Hecate destroyers, Deimos corvettes and Aeolus cruisers.
With more smaller ships, the fleets of the GTVA would be more flexible.
Also, more ships means more weapons and more targets for the enemy to hit, not just one single target.
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Golgotha is not at all a ship like the Colossus although the firepower that it weilds makes it a significant threat.
The Golgotha can take on a Ravana class destroyer, but probably not two. The reinforced armor plating gives it twice the strength that a normal GTVA destroyer has so its well armored, but its still a percentage of the Colossus' hitpoints.
In BWO you will see just how powerful the Golgotha is, but also its weaknesses. If it gets caught off guard, the Golgotha is in serious trouble since its main beam cannon can only shoot forward.
On the upside, it can take out a ship such as a Sathanas in a well co-ordinated strike, but like the Colossus, it must be a strategic assault...it cannot fight it toe to toe.
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I don't think the GTVA needs bigger weapons. Knowing the Shivan threat after two wars, they should have noticed that brute force is NOT the way against them.
A new breed of smaller and faster destroyers (yet with as much firepower as the current ones or more) would be the perfect solution - allowing rapid deployment of large fighter/bomber strikes, which can exploit the main weaknesses of most Shivan vessels and pave the way for a heavier strike by the destroyer's own main weapons.
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The GTVA needs to make the BFGreen and LRBGreen's recharge rate faster,the it can destroye the sathans just as fast (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Shrike:
The problem is, anything smaller than a Colossus would get eaten alive by a Ravana.
Only if you fight it toe to toe. I mentioned this in another thread, but most shivan warships, and the ravana especially, have their firepower very focused to the front. If you stay out of its frontal arc, it can't do diddly.
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larger warships are not the answer. what would bring down a Ravana are several smaller destroyers with large bomber wings, and several fighter wings to engage the enemy.
A Sathanas can be brought down easily- have a couple bomber wings take out the arms and bring a couple hash- hath- hath- vaccuum cleaners to pull in the rear. It has one of the largest blind spots I've ever seen.
Either that or put a fully operational hades in there.
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the solution? for me, that's a node blockade.put mots of sentry turrets, mjolnirs, and you're done. I bet 12 mjolnir ar less expensive than a hecate. put that, plus lots of small sentry guns/missiles to protect them from fighters, and you can wacth everything from cains to ravanas going down in flames. I don't know how many big hammers you need to take down a Sathanas with low risk... need a try.
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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Specially if you have some new (and very nasty) AAA RBCs... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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I get the hint. I'll work on it. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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* whistles and walks away... * (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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I agree...smaller and more deadly destroyers are definately the answers against the largest of Shivan vessels, especially with the weakness in Shivan weapon placements.
This IS something the Golgotha was designed in mind.
We've got a great mission in the works (Kellan made it) where the Golgotha lays waste to a small fleet of warships. I won't give much away, and there are reasons why the Golgotha wins so one handedly (the player is always important) but its definately alot of firepower in a smaller, more mobile package than the Colossus.
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I agree the GTVA needs faster ships, if they're fast enuf, when the sathanas fires it could already be out of the way cuz the sathanas don't got slashers, they can't adjust the angle of the beam while its firing, and the GTVA vessel could fly in behind it and just start firing BFGreens at it. And also Cloaking technology would be of an incredible advantage too. Plus a fleet of these such vessels would IMO would mean the defeat of the Shivans, but as history shows, they always have something up their sleeves... if they have sleeves, then again the Human species is incredibly resilient.
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Cat - "Quick, lets get out of here before they bring him back!"
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Since the Shivans are pretty much immune to any intimidation tactics, which the Colossus was, smaller, practical, flexible destroyers would probably work better.
What the GTVA really needs is better tactics, not better weapons.
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Like surrounding a Sathanas with 30 bombers loaded with Helios bombs, and then launching them.
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- Arnav Manchanda
ICQ: 6228797
Creator of Technological Superiority: http://www.3dap.com/hlp/techsup ("http://www.3dap.com/hlp/techsup")
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I can think of a potentially viable method of destroying Sathanas sized ships. Mjolnirs are a reasonably sound concept but the method of deployment and design have flaws, when they are deployed around the circumference of the node "event horizon" (can't think of a better description) they have a higher chance of hitting incoming ships but if the ship moves at high velocity out of the node the guns have little time to fire upon the target. The amount of damage they could do to a sathanas is pretty low not to mention that they are basically sitting ducks if they don't destroy the target before it leaves their firing range.
A better solution would be a space station with a concentrated beam array directly pointing into the node, the array would have enough firepower to at least render enough damage for bombers or larger ships to finish it off. Since it fires directly into the exit point of the node a large ship would take a considerable amount of time to maneuver out of the firing path.
It would act as sentry and be a strategic refueling point for ships entering and leaving the system. Also there would be fighter support without the need for a carrier or destroyer.
So to sum up you've got:
Strategic launching/resupplying/refuelling point for ships.
Sentry protecting said system from potential invasion by large hostiles.
Reasonably self sufficient base of operations.
Considerable working lifetime.
Can anyone think of any flaws, there's always something.
Sorry to go a little off topic but I was interested in wheter or not you guys thought the idea was viable.
[This message has been edited by Maeglamor (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Here's something I always wondered about node defense. What determines what direction a ship comes out of a node in? do ships coming through a node always come out on the same vector, or do they keep the same vector they had when they went through the node on the other side? If nodes are linear, you can only come out of them in one direction, It seems to me that the best defense would be to put a barrier minefield with some mjolnirs in front of the exit path, and a beam station behind the node so its firing on the rear of the ship. Ships coming through the node would have to stop or get fragged by the mines, and while they were manouvering out of the minefield the Mjolnirs and station would have plenty of time to toast whatever it is. Putting the station behind the node instead of in front if it also keeps the station safer from heavy enemy fire.
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Good point but I wouldn't like to speculate what effect firing into the event horizon of the node would have, bear in mind that you might not actually be hitting the back end of the ship but the node exit as the ship is leaving.
I think (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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I think that everyone the most important thing to remember here is that the Shivans outnumber the GTVA by who knows how much. Better tactics is the way to go, but in a pinch, something with powerful weaponery and armor could mean the difference between victory and defeat.
The GTVA should keep engagements with the Shivans to an absolute minimum, if possible. And more small covert ops forces to find their weaknesses and (possibly) origins (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Yeah! And for 80 Sathanas, you need 2400 bombers! There's something wrong here... Shivan are building their fleet for at least 8000 years now... Even with huge tech improvments, I think the GTVA is doomed if the shivan decided to really wipe it out (they had sent the sathanas fleet, that was enough... Well 10 sathanas plus a ravana escort would be enough in fact...
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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i seriously don't beleive the sathanas is the final word in shivan superdestroyers.
It's just got too many flaws. Sure it's lethal from the front but a couple of orions and covettes appearing behind it with a fighter escort to neutralise bombers and cruisers would really give it a what-for.
To think of the size of the colossus...where does the GTVA obtain raw materials?
asteroids shunted into orbit and mined out as biosphere caverns?
if so, the colossus alone would have "eaten" at least 3-6 asteroids' worth or material.
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Originally posted by wEvil:
i seriously don't beleive the sathanas is the final word in shivan superdestroyers.
It's just got too many flaws. Sure it's lethal from the front but a couple of orions and covettes appearing behind it with a fighter escort to neutralise bombers and cruisers would really give it a what-for.
To think of the size of the colossus...where does the GTVA obtain raw materials?
asteroids shunted into orbit and mined out as biosphere caverns?
if so, the colossus alone would have "eaten" at least 3-6 asteroids' worth or material.
Speaking on a galactic scale, that's less than chicken feed (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Co-Creator, Project Omega18 ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
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I think node exit direction is the same as node enter direction, as if the nodes were the same point in space. Simplest explanation. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Here's one thing about FS2 that bugs me: Why do ships ever travel by anything other than Subspace? For example, in High Noon, why didn't the Colossus just go do a really short intrasystem jump to right behind the Sathanas? Why do ships always have to crawl the last 10000 meters to a node, instead of just jumping to it?
As for what the GTVA needs, I agree, more light corvettes would be perfect. Especially fast ones, that can outmanouver other Capships easily- if the Shivans can't point their primary beams at you because you're always behind them, they're messed.
Developing a good Meson Warhead wouldn't hurt either...can you say Nuclear Cruise Missile? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
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Put some meson bombs near each jump nodes. If shivan comes out: BOUM!
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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Yes, I'm actually going to post! *gasp*
I highly disagree with the idea of having more smaller ships. Think of it this way. Smaller ships may have a bit more firepower, more manueverable, but they are weak in defense compared to the "super" ship.
Let's look in our own history for examples, shall we? The Hood & The Prince of Wales vs. The Bismark. The Hood was a Battlecruiser by definition. She sacraficed deck armor for speed and maneuverability, but she got taken out easily. Her guns were about the same power as the Bismark's, but here armor sucked.
That's like sending two Orions or Hecates vs 1 Colossus. The Colossus would destroy the other ships, while taking damage, heavy most likely, but she would live to fight again. Why? If she targeted all of her guns on 1 ship, she could destroy it, and vastly improve her odds. You guys just think more guns are better, but they aren't. You're ship that holds the guns, must be able to survive.
Basically, you need a Capital ship in a fleet, or it's pathetic. Would a fleet comprised of mainly Frigates attack a fleet with only a handful of Ships of the Line and the same number of frigates?
But the other thing you must have is balance. You cannot have a fleet comprised of all Destroyers or all super ships, you must have a combined group. Just like a pyramid, more weaker ships, fewer stronger ships. Look at a modern task force and you'll see what I'm talking about.
So you should have a couple fleets comprised of 1-2 Collosi, 4 Destroyers, 6-8 Corvettes, and then cruisers. The thing FS lacked was FLEET engagements. It had ship to ship, but never massive battles, and that is usually what occurs.
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"I am about to drop the hammer and dispense some indiscriminant justice!" -Starcraft
"First rule of government spending, why build one for the price of one, when you can have two for twice the price." - S.R. Hadden (Contact)
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I agrre with you, and I would live fleet battles, the pb is that FS handles only about 70 ships, and that is wrong (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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Nobody is doubting that the smaller ships will lose to heavier ships more often. The question is, for the same amount of GTVA time & money, would it be better to have one Colossus or twenty Corvettes? I vote the latter. Or, for the same cost, you could have hundreds of fighters and bombers. Either way, smaller wins.
As for historic battles, remember that in WW2, fighters/bombers sunk a pretty respectable number of ships.
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
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also.....would you want to write the thousands of letters to spouses, parents and family when a couple corvettes go up, from an engagement the Colossus would have easily survived? There's a human cost too.
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Make them radio-controlled. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Gah, put a Duracel into a cap ship and it lasts, lasts and lasts... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Didn't the Duracell bunny get sued in America? By the Energizer bunny?
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Yes and the legal proceedings went on and on and on...
*Maeglamor dodges a quick left hook from the rest of the posters on this thread*
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RE: Mjolnirs
Maybe if you had a set of RBCs' surrounding the node, pointing AWAY from it, and focused at some point in the distance from the exit, maybe you could hit the nose first, and cut right down the sides as it moved forwards, cutting any capship to shreds. With enough RBC's, you would have a kind of 'cage' effect, so even if a ship moved away form the 'focus' popint, it would still have to go through a beam (and get hit). (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/ninja.gif)
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That could work, Aldo, but only if you know the direction the enemy will exit, and I don't think there is any way to determine that for sure, unless it's Knossos-controlled.
I agree that the best way to defend a node is to put a powerful space station nearby, with lots of fighters.
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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nah... just build a cage like thingy around the entire node, when they warp in, they die, real simple.
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(http://www.warpstorm.com/ubb/image_uploads/space_cowboy_hat.gif)
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United Space ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/us/")
Newsie, Modder, Slave to Asta
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hem, then the GTVA couldn't use it too, could as well collapse the node then...
Anyway, I think that technically the ships that comes out fr'om a node all goes in the same direction after all, it's just a kind of tunnel exit. So making a "Mjolnir tunnel" next to the node should work.
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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If you can enter a node from any direction, and you can, you can exit a node from any direction. I personally think that you exit in the same absolute spatial orientation you enter, so if you're facing the center of the galaxy as you go in you face the center of the galaxy as you come out. This would explain why ships coming from the same place exit the same way- it's not random. But exit direction can be controlled.
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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Well, I think we can enter from any direction for only a single reason: because otherwise it would be **** to jump out, to make missions and so on. it's just a question of game play. look at Xwing alliance. In all previous games, the fighter had to point where it was supposed to go before entering hyperspace. So you could die while it was doing that (and in these games, it's easy to die). And in the movie, Ian Solo says cleraly that it must be very accurate if you don't want to hit "a super nova". In XWA, all that is gone. you can enter in hypersapce from any direction. Just because of gameplay. Well, that's the same thing with Freespace I think, and Nodes are holes in reality, so there must be a side where you have to enter.
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venom2506
Member of the Robotech mod for FS2 ("http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/")
and of Hidden Terror, the Shivan campaign ("http://shivancampaign.homestead.com/index.html")
and My own page ("http://www.geocities.com/venom250681/Venom2506.html")
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I'm surprised we haven't got a 'node blocker' in FS2 yet, a la the IW1 intro. That would be pretty neat. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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RBC are pretty damn expensive, which is why they aren't in wider deployment.
the cage idea is a good one, but who could afford to basically surround a node with a bunch of hydrogen Peta-electron-volt particle accelerators?
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Originally posted by Sushi:
Nobody is doubting that the smaller ships will lose to heavier ships more often. The question is, for the same amount of GTVA time & money, would it be better to have one Colossus or twenty Corvettes? I vote the latter. Or, for the same cost, you could have hundreds of fighters and bombers. Either way, smaller wins.
As for historic battles, remember that in WW2, fighters/bombers sunk a pretty respectable number of ships.
Would you prefer 10 firgates or a battleship/heavy cruiser? I'd take the battleship. How about this, remember how easily the corvettes got wiped by the Destroyer? All corvettes are is cannon fodder. You need to have a bigger class of ships to trump the other guy's huge ship.
Just remember how easily smaller ships get waxed. When they go, so do does their guns. But with a larger ship, it takes a lot more to destroy them.
Way you're talking, we wouldn't have built battleships or cruisers, just have tons of destroyers. That's what China has and they don't pose a threat to us.
Yes the smaller would win, but at a greater cost and greater risk. Imagine the number of lives you are talking about, not just cost. Also, the bigger the ship, the bigger the guns. And the bigger the ship the more fighters it can hold.
My money is that compared to cap ships, fighters are incredibly cheap.
Yes in WWII many ships were sunk by fighters, but air power is better, but you need big ships to carry those planes and big ships to guard those ships. Because what happens if your planes get waxed and you don't have big ships and the enemy does?
Oh and the turpitz was a sitting duck. And the shot on the Bismark was a lucky shot.
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I wouldn't really compare WWII fighters to FS fighters. FS fighters can do very little damage to large ships, whereas the WWII fighters had some offensive power.
Bombers are a different matter.
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Alright, time to defend my positions... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Star Wars physics and FS physics work differently. The way I see it, jump nodes are essentially the same point in real space existing in two places at once. The subspace nodes are where reality folds in on itself.
Subspace just allows you to cross the fold. Star Wars just involves faster-than-light travel, nothing like FS's model.
Imagine the way two spheres overlap. Where they overlap would be the node, the skin of the sphere 3D space.
Now, back to to the large vs. small debate:
I'd still take the 10 frigates- but I would have to attack your battleship with all of them at once. The large ship works best by cornering the small ones individually, where they are no match. However, if the smaller ships stay together, they can put up quite a fight, and if they get seriously damaged, they can retreat without giving up the fight completely. Yes, the big guy will usually win in an all-out grudge match, but the smaller ships will win if they are careful and patient. You all know that with enough time and patience, you could single handedly take out any capship in the game with a single bomber. You've probably even done it. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Anyways, the big ship will win in the classic showdown-battle, but in the long run, smaller ships make much more sense.
Finally, WW2 fighters are the closest comparison with FS2 fighters really availible. The only flaw is that there weren't really any light bombers in WW2, mostly just big fat ones. And when I say FS fighters, I include bombers in that category.
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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The biggest advantage air power has over naval power is speed and mobility. In space, that's mostly nullified. Capships with Big Guns are the way to go. You can splash bombers easily with fighters, but even a cruiser like the Aeolus takes some killing.
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Another advantage that fighters and bombers have is in speed of construction. A new fighter can roll off the assembly line in a couple months, or less, but a capital ship, especially a large one, requires a huge investment of time not only in construction but also in crew training. Additionally, because of the shorter construction time fighters and bombers can take advantage of new technology much more rapidly. Mounting a new weapons system on an old fighter can be accomplished incredibly quickly, but refitting weapons on a capitol ship requires weeks, if not months in drydock.
Finally, the problem with capitol ships is that it can only be in one place. If you have a choice between a cruiser or ten fighters, that cruiser can only be in one spot, which may be right in front of a BFRed =P Those ten fighters can undertake a much more flexible array of tasks and missions. You don't really need a cruiser to scout an asteroid field, and you don't want to have that much investment in material jumping through an uncharted node to see what's on the other side.
It all depends on what you need done and how soon. There's no one solution to all problems =)
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on the other hand, fighters are nullified over a distance because the amount of deuterium/He3 fuel they can carry must be very limited.
I would imagine capships would be back to flying fueltanks considering the amount of energy the weapons and shields eat up.
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Originally posted by morris13:
What determines what direction a ship comes out of a node in?
i think the orientation for the transition is simple, the way you enter is the way you emerge... Once in the conduit, you can manuever... once you make the exit jump, the same rules apply...
Originally posted by Sushi:
Here's one thing about FS2 that bugs me: Why do ships ever travel by anything other than Subspace? For example, in High Noon, why didn't the Colossus just go do a really short intrasystem jump to right behind the Sathanas? Why do ships always have to crawl the last 10000 meters to a node, instead of just jumping to it?
the drives have to charge... the larger the ship, the more power needed to vibrate the ship at the right frequency to force the warp-hole open...
if a ship did an intrasystem jump to the node, it would suck the juice from the motivator and would be stranded at the node until it recharged... at least when a ship is moving it is more tactically-able than if it was stationary...
if say, the Aquitaine jumped to the node in Argonautica, it would be stranded at the node...
lets also assume that to overcharge the motivator to make an emergency jump would take even more energy...
that probably means taking beams, plasma turrets & flak offline, and if the ship is extremely large, say, in the Aquitaines case, a Hecate, life-support & other serious systems may also be dropped...
its not damn worth it (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Temporal Mechanics ("http://www.fs2temp-mech.co.uk")
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That's what you need good recon for. Instead of having the C jump in, and then not be able to jump to a better position behind the Sathanas, get good co-ordinates from your sentry vessels or fighters and have the C come in behind the Sathanas in the first place.
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then your heavy strike force would already have to be in-system.
there is only one way in and out of interstellar subspace - the jump nodes.
Unless you happen to be shivan or Ancient.
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All right, Griffon, I'll buy that. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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Lol, I've read in the database (FS1 ot 2, don't remember), that only fighters can do intrasystem jumps, the capships can't because they need more gravitational nergy or something like this, and that is obnly provided by nodes. I don't remeber quite well, but the important fact is that capships can't do that, here is your answer (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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What are you talking about? Capships can do intrasystem. Nearly every FS and FS2 mission involves a capship doing an intrasystem jump.
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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I said what I've read. they can't make jumps without a jumpnode, if you don't believe me, just check in the game
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Fighters are limited to using jump nodes for inter-system jumps as well.
Anything can make an intra-system jump as a gravity well stretches spacetime allowing a ship to drop into subspace more easily.
The only way to make an inter-system jump without a node is to create one (somehow) or stabilise a micro-node (unstable node) with a knossos device.
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It wouldn't be too hard to defeat if someone constructed a homing meson bomb.
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Wow, this one's an oldie, but worth rediscussion (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
A homing meson would be quite expensive - a reactor would have to be fit on it to power the engine, as well as guidance systems - and a malfunction in the reactor core might just blow the whole damn thing.
On that note, if a homing meson were produced, it would naturally require a plethora of escort ships, which would be in perilous danger, as they will have to be 3 clicks away when it blows. That alone would make it very dangerous. On that note, a similar effect could probably be produced by a decommisioned cruiser (can anyone say 'Fenris' or 'Aten'?) loaded with explosives. It would also mean a new chassis would not have to be developed.
However, meson bombs have so far only been used in destroying jump nodes (or attempting to - the first Knossos and the nodes leading to Capella). In this light, very precise conditions will be needed for it, and hence its probably not worth sticking an engine onto it to propel it to ground zero. And for anti-capship attacks, it is probably just as effective and much less dangerous for friendly craft to use the money and instead have several wings of bombers attack with Cyclops and Helios warheads, which prove highly lethal.
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I'm surprised we haven't got a 'node blocker' in FS2 yet, a la the IW1 intro. That would be pretty neat.
I Already got that covered (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
As for Meson based weaponry, the alliance more then likely constructed a decent allotment of them at the same time as the Nereid and Bastion were being prepared for their missions.
Now command would clearly classify the data, but I'd assume that a good stockpile was created.
After all: "Why have one when you can have two for twice the price!" (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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to blockade a node, I suggest you put hundreds of nukes around it. If it's shivan: Kaboom!!! should be enough to wipe a whole fleet out without damaging the node (just move them away enough)
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Hundreds of nukes? I suppose so, but once one went off it would trigger all the others - and in addition, Harbingers are made up of 3 salted fission bombs plus one fusion. And you need a fair few of those suckers to take down a destroyer.
But the catch is, once one ship goes through and triggers off a few, it will basically trigger off the rest, right? And the residual shockwave probably will not last long enough to take out another ship that comes in afterwards. So they'd have to be constantly replaced and positioned, and that would take time, lots of effort and money too.
However if you did have lots of spare warheads lying around, why not? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Setekh:
Hundreds of nukes? I suppose so, but once one went off it would trigger all the others - and in addition, Harbingers are made up of 3 salted fission bombs plus one fusion. And you need a fair few of those suckers to take down a destroyer.
But the catch is, once one ship goes through and triggers off a few, it will basically trigger off the rest, right? And the residual shockwave probably will not last long enough to take out another ship that comes in afterwards. So they'd have to be constantly replaced and positioned, and that would take time, lots of effort and money too.
However if you did have lots of spare warheads lying around, why not? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Nah, it would be remote controlled. the nukes are blown up when all the fleet enters the "mine field".
Plus when you shoot a bomb, the one next to it don't blow up because of the shockwave (always found that lame but...)
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Ah yes, that makes more sense (I thought they were proximity-type mines before). And they don't explode upon the shockwave? Oh well, I guess it would probably be like that in game. That's odd, because the player can get killed by being too close to their warhead when it explodes (can anyone say 'dive bombing'!). (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Setekh:
Ah yes, that makes more sense (I thought they were proximity-type mines before). And they don't explode upon the shockwave? Oh well, I guess it would probably be like that in game. That's odd, because the player can get killed by being too close to their warhead when it explodes (can anyone say 'dive bombing'!). (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
well, ingame they are usually dual fired, and when you shoot one, the other one remains intact, but yeah the player is knocked out.
Bah, anyway, I think my nuke mine field would make pretty fireworks (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)