Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on August 14, 2005, 11:38:36 pm
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Uhm, yeah. Israel's disengagement from the Palestinians in Gaza is beginning today, basically. Officers are handing out evacuation orders to the residents of Gush Katif, etc. Evacuation proper begins Wednesday from what I recall.
There are more reporters here for this thing than there ever were for any of Israel's wars - something on the order of four thousand foreign reporters.
This has the potential to break out into civil war, something that we've been praying against no matter what else happens.
Anyway, there wasn't a thread on it yet, so here you go. Let the news links begin.
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Now lets watch the Gaza Strip Fall to pieces and reach a new level of absolute poverty. And My Prediction: They[Palestinians], will blame the jews and not their own leadership.
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It's already fallen into pieces and abolute poverty.
I guess we'll see what the "new" Palestinian government is made of........
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Originally posted by Kosh
It's already fallen into pieces and abolute poverty.
I guess we'll see what the "new" Palestinian government is made of........
I know, but I am saying that it will only get worse.
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I guess we'll find out soon enough.
And I thought I was pessimistic.......
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Obviously you know the situation better than me Sandwich, but I don't think civil war is too likely. Despite dissenters among the army and police, the impression that I get is that the majority, both among the security services and the population in general support the disengagement, while those who oppose it are unwilling to physically attack their fellow Jews over the matter. They may be very vocal, but they are still a minority. My predicition that Sharon will go ahead with the plan, no matter what. The settlers don't seem to have any really big ace up their sleeve (Netanyahu resigned and Sharon barely even flinched) so the best (worst) they can do is hold rallies and get soldiers to disobey. That only delays the inevitable, it doesn't reverse the situation.
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Besides, if they want to rebel over being ordered to leave land they never should have settled, tough. They knew the stakes when they joined the game.
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Well, it's all part of the Biblical Jewish homeland to them, so somehow I doubt the word of politicians, whether Israeli or otherwise, would be held in higher regard than the directives of God.
Which, I must admit, is a very seductive point of view. The legitimacy of this and that can be debated ad nasueum. But you can't very well second-guess the Big G.
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all they need to do is say, in 48 hours we won't protect you anymore, you will officaly be liveing in palistine and subject to there laws government and police/military/ect. we won't protect you and we won't avenge you cause we told you to get the hell out, but no, you knew better.
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Well, for that they would need to revoke their citizenship and whatnot. And it would still be complicity in murder, which is something few Israelis would be willing to stand by.
Still, I hear that some settlers have actually taken out Palestinian passports and have sought the help of the Palestinian Authority, just so they can stay put.
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Originally posted by Kosh
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
And I thought I was pessimistic.......
I think this way because I have listened to people that know and have been there and the whole Palestinia Authority structure, down to the gaurds at border crossings, are absolutly corrupt. The whole area under the PA has been described as a giant prison. Hamas, the terrorist organizations, is more honest and trustworthy than the PA.
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Originally posted by redmenace
I think this way because I have listened to people that know and have been there and the whole Palestinia Authority structure, down to the gaurds at border crossings, are absolutly corrupt. The whole area under the PA has been described as a giant prison. Hamas, the terrorist organizations, is more honest and trustworthy than the PA.
Well that's what you get. In France, during the Nazi occupation, who were more trustworthy - the resistance, or the compliers? Same situation.
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I think, because of Arafats death and the new PA leadership seeming a bit more willing to negotiate this is slightly less likely to go tits up than I had feared, as there's been indications of some sort of co-ordination between the Israeli army and PA security forces.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Obviously you know the situation better than me Sandwich, but I don't think civil war is too likely. Despite dissenters among the army and police, the impression that I get is that the majority, both among the security services and the population in general support the disengagement, while those who oppose it are unwilling to physically attack their fellow Jews over the matter.
I'm not too sure they are the minority, although it hardly matters what opinion holds majority - there was no democratic process involving the people in this decision.
But majority or minority, you don't need 50/50 to have a civil war. :-/
However, your last point there is the strongest argument against the possibility of civil war; in all the demonstrations against the pullout, there has been an overriding directive from the leaders of the demonstrations to refrain from any violence whatsoever, a directive which - by and large - has been heeded. From what I hear, the soldiers blocking the marchers' progress towards Gush Katif a few weeks ago were very... impressed? touched? by the peaceful nature of the demonstrators.
Currently, the most active method of resistance I've heard about is that the settlers plan on shaming the soldiers by taking pictures with them, pictures they say they will show to their children and grandchildren, saying, "These are the people who kicked us out of our homes." Kinda underhanded, but at least it's peaceful.
Originally posted by mikhael
Besides, if they want to rebel over being ordered to leave land they never should have settled, tough. They knew the stakes when they joined the game.
The ironic thing is that it was Sharon himself who urged on the whole settlement process, and who told the settlers never to leave no matter what happens. Which explains why so many hold him to be a traitor.
Originally posted by Bobboau
all they need to do is say, in 48 hours we won't protect you anymore, you will officaly be liveing in palistine and subject to there laws government and police/military/ect. we won't protect you and we won't avenge you cause we told you to get the hell out, but no, you knew better.
I actually saw on the local news a report of a guy and his family who plan on staying in their home, and have applied for Palestinian citizenship. They say that if their country is willing to forsake them, they're willing to forsake their country.
Originally posted by Rictor
Still, I hear that some settlers have actually taken out Palestinian passports and have sought the help of the Palestinian Authority, just so they can stay put.
Oh, hey, yeah, that. :p
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Originally posted by Sandwich
The ironic thing is that it was Sharon himself who urged on the whole settlement process, and who told the settlers never to leave no matter what happens. Which explains why so many hold him to be a traitor.
Yeah, but I've always said Sharon is an ass. He's just shown himself to be a politician.
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The ironic thing is that it was Sharon himself who urged on the whole settlement process, and who told the settlers never to leave no matter what happens. Which explains why so many hold him to be a traitor.
Those people never thought that politicians flip-flop a lot. :p
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Flip flop? (http://www.shoptybee.com/images/very-jeri/green-flip-flop-lrg.jpg)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I think, because of Arafats death and the new PA leadership seeming a bit more willing to negotiate this is slightly less likely to go tits up than I had feared, as there's been indications of some sort of co-ordination between the Israeli army and PA security forces.
A different leadership isn't going to automatically change the atmosphere of the PA. They have to clean house of the corruption.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Besides, if they want to rebel over being ordered to leave land they never should have settled, tough. They knew the stakes when they joined the game.
Pretty much my view on the matter. And if they trusted a two-faced war crime committing bastard like Sharon in the first place then that only makes them even more stupid.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Flip flop?
http://www.shoptybee.com/images/very-jeri/green-flip-flop-lrg.jpg
:no: Thongs.
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Thong. (http://www.transport.polymtl.ca/civ3601/Hiv2003/Ly_Hieu-Thong.jpg)
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When I stepped downstairs for lunch today, the cafeiteria (sp?) had the daily paper lying out, as usual. As I glanced through it while waiting for my food, I noticed that many of the pullout pictures were of settlers and soldiers, crying into each other's shoulders, standing arm-in-arm, etc. So far, very little of the savage resistance I'm sure the foreign media would be pleased to be able to cover.
Anyway, I couldn't find those exact pictures to show you guys, but I did find a little gallery (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=87796) with a few of those kinds of pictures on it.
Also, what else did you expect (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3128119,00.html)? :rolleyes:
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You really couldn't expect anything else. They're morons, Sandwich. Moron's with ideas every bit as foolish as those of the settlers who chose to settle in the occupied territories, and the politicians that encouraged the settlers. Neither group seems to believe that there's any room for compromise.
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http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=152891360&p=y5z89zx66&n=152892120
A pretty comprehensive article about the situation in Gaza at the moment.
You know, I think these Jewish terrorists are even more insane than the Islamic ones; at least the Muslims have some sort of religious backing to their actions.
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Seems odd so much bloodshed & grief over what is essentially a fairly small chunk of desert.........(yes, I know it's more complicated than that, I was trying to be ironic)
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Don't want to seem assholistic, but they ARE religious extremist also, who are battling fot the Great Isreal. Not to say they're right, but simply as dumb as their palestinian counterpart.
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Originally posted by Genryu
Don't want to seem assholistic, but they ARE religious extremist also, who are battling fot the Great Isreal. Not to say they're right, but simply as dumb as their palestinian counterpart.
IIRC they reckon there are 5000 "jewish extremeists".
Also, the BBC (again, IIRC) reported Jews on opposite sides were calling each other Nazis.
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As terrible as it is to see anybody forced out of their home, this is something that really did have to be done and I'm quite happy that it's gone pretty smoothly so far... with a bit of luck and a bit of help from God, it'll stay that way.
Baby steps. It's the way to go.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
Also, the BBC (again, IIRC) reported Jews on opposite sides were calling each other Nazis.
:lol:
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I smell another Yitzhak Rabin. Hopefully not. Looking on from the outside, it seems to me that alot of people are very, very pissed. Or at least they're being very vocal about it.
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Some pictures:
(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5871/mdf274081vm.jpg)
(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3083/mdf278171er.jpg)
(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2332/r5063585626xm.jpg)
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3981/mdf269445ln.jpg)
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6010/r23811076517am.jpg)
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I'm still gobsmacked by that stupid bastard who decided to hold his baby son out the window and threaten to drop him rather than move. I mean, have some priorities, eh?
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"arg! there going to make us move a mile to the northeast!"
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In a way it's insidious what Sharon is doing.
Leaving Gaza is hardly going to damage Israel (afaik) but it might utterly destroy what is left of "Palestine" from within as they'll have to decide what they want to be now.
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Originally posted by Rictor
(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2332/r5063585626xm.jpg)
Ooh, thanks for those, man - that's almost exactly the picture I saw in the paper at the cafiteria; it's the same people, at least, just a different angle.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Some pictures:
(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2332/r5063585626xm.jpg)
"Dude, I'm, like, mad drunk, dude! wtf you ****ing ****"
"Why did she leave me bwaaaaaaa"
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Not funny
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I have to disagree. :lol:
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[religousrant] I think "WTF YOU DUMB ASSES!" @ Israle. Dammit Israle! Its YOUR land, keep it. I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them. The two disputed strips\peices of land (the west bank and gaza strip) ISRALE should take over and keep.
God gave them the land, its practially their birthright, and they give it up for peace? There will be no peace! They have given them permission to stay less then a mile away from them and bomb them when they feel like it, from now on.
Dispite that, i wonder what God is going to do about this, about Israle. Once again they disobeyed God. *Sigh*
Way back when, before they settled in israle, God said to destroy a bunch of groups of people, they did most but left some alive. Thus the palistinions. And they have plauged them ever after. Dumbasses'.[religousrant]
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<----- Backs away from ticking thread.....
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I'm not even going to respond to Charasmatic. That post reeks with idiocy.
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some times I think he's got to be pulling my leg, but then I remember, no, he's genuine. :eek2:
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We've got a live one, folks.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/Mistah_Kurtz/radioactive.gif)
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B0rked Arrow!
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[religiousrant]you frighten me[/religiousrant]
:rolleyes:
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Israel, not Israle.
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Originally posted by Charismatic
[religousrant] I think "WTF YOU DUMB ASSES!" @ Israle. Dammit Israle! Its YOUR land, keep it. I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them. The two disputed strips\peices of land (the west bank and gaza strip) ISRALE should take over and keep.
God gave them the land, its practially their birthright, and they give it up for peace? There will be no peace! They have given them permission to stay less then a mile away from them and bomb them when they feel like it, from now on.
Dispite that, i wonder what God is going to do about this, about Israle. Once again they disobeyed God. *Sigh*
Way back when, before they settled in israle, God said to destroy a bunch of groups of people, they did most but left some alive. Thus the palistinions. And they have plauged them ever after. Dumbasses'.[religousrant]
Wow...just, wow.
You go there. On you go. Just go. Go. Please go. Please go?
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Originally posted by Charismatic
[religousrant] I think "WTF YOU DUMB ASSES!" @ Israle. Dammit Israle! Its YOUR land, keep it. I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them. The two disputed strips\peices of land (the west bank and gaza strip) ISRALE should take over and keep.
God gave them the land, its practially their birthright, and they give it up for peace? There will be no peace! They have given them permission to stay less then a mile away from them and bomb them when they feel like it, from now on.
Dispite that, i wonder what God is going to do about this, about Israle. Once again they disobeyed God. *Sigh*
Way back when, before they settled in israle, God said to destroy a bunch of groups of people, they did most but left some alive. Thus the palistinions. And they have plauged them ever after. Dumbasses'.[religousrant]
Wow.
You're an idiot.
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According to the Old Testament, everything he said is true. The nation of Israel has a long history of fall away from God, being punished and then repenting. The Jews were also there for 1000s of years before being carried off by the romans and babylonians. I am not saying Israel is disobeying God or in line for a smitting or anything but a little of the Religious POV.
That said, Israel is not doing anyone any favors by pulling out from the "occupied territories."
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[q] I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them.[/q]
He's a tw@. Don't dignify that with excuses.
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lol,
accidentally looked over that sentance. And my post wasn't so much as a excuse but an observation.
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Definition of something being "apt":
I open this thread, and just then a familiar guitar solo starts in winamp.
It was Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms.
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What, the 'Brothers in Arms' or 'Dire Straights' part?
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Originally posted by Charismatic
God gave them the land, its practially their birthright, and they give it up for peace?
I thought it was the post war British Authority ?
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[color=66ff00]I have to say kudos guys, it's nice to see an incendiary post ignored. :yes:
[/color]
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Originally posted by Charismatic
[religousrant] I think "WTF YOU DUMB ASSES!" @ Israle. Dammit Israle! Its YOUR land, keep it. I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them. The two disputed strips\peices of land (the west bank and gaza strip) ISRALE should take over and keep.
God gave them the land, its practially their birthright, and they give it up for peace? There will be no peace! They have given them permission to stay less then a mile away from them and bomb them when they feel like it, from now on.
Dispite that, i wonder what God is going to do about this, about Israle. Once again they disobeyed God. *Sigh*
Way back when, before they settled in israle, God said to destroy a bunch of groups of people, they did most but left some alive. Thus the palistinions. And they have plauged them ever after. Dumbasses'.[religousrant]
Wow..Not really theirs.
In the bible palestina is mentioned before israel, so it was there before. Just becoause a buch of asses sit on a table and decide to take a piece of someone elses land and give it to someone else, that doesn't make it theirs by some magic.
And I recall from the bible that when Moses lead his people to forge Isreal tehy killed everyone - man, women, childern.
So you are wrong on practicly all accounts....
Now back to our regular program:
Heard they are allmsot trough with the evacuation! Pause becouse of sabbot.
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And now we have the definition of irony.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Wow..Not really theirs.God said so, thus, yes, it was theirs.
In the bible palestina is mentioned before israel, so it was there before. Just becoause a buch of asses sit on a table and decide to take a piece of someone elses land and give it to someone else, that doesn't make it theirs by some magic.
It was theirs because they fought for it and won it. Would not have won it without Gods help.
And I recall from the bible that when Moses lead his people to forge Isreal tehy killed everyone - man, women, childern.
Yeah. Thus killing off the people. Your point is? They killed the people as a whole, for most of the peoples they ran into. The few they let remain, in disobediance, turned into Palistinons and the Eastern peoplez. IIRC, Muslim.
So you are wrong on practicly all accounts....
No.
Now back to our regular program:
Heard they are allmsot trough with the evacuation! Pause becouse of sabbot.
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Jesus said it was alright for me to make fun of other people's spiritual convictions, so....
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/Mistah_Kurtz/buddy_christ.jpg)
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Charismatic, tell me, and I mean this on all posable levels, is it truely as blissfull as they say?
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I doubt it. Look how angry people get.
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Originally posted by Charismatic
I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them.
Wow. Just wow. I do hope that you never ever command anything more military than an RTS game.
That said, I would like to know exactly why you think that killing Arabs is the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Think about it: if Israel did kill the Palestinians, and even if Iran doesn't have a fully-functional nuclear program, that one spark would send the Arab world down on Israel.
So, what is it, mass slaughter of both Jews and Arabs, or even the slightest hope of peace? Bear in mind that I support Israel all the way and am slightly shaken up by the withdrawal, but I'm not nearly as fanatical as... no, just no. As long as our Mr. Sandwich and his people exist, all I can do is hope for the best.
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Actually not all of the peoples of the land were killed. Israel, IIRC, accidentally made a peace treaty with some of them.
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The Bedouins for example, who IIRC have quite an examplary record of service in the IDF.
Just ignore the "God said so" arguements, for obvious reasons.
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Originally posted by Charismatic
........
Where do you get all this stuff from? Do you actually believe all this non-sense?
Wow..Not really theirs.God said so, thus, yes, it was theirs.
Whoa, so you consider the UN to be God? Scary. :nervous:
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It was theirs because they fought for it and won it. Would not have won it without Gods help.
So by similar logic if they were to lose a war or get kicked off of their land that would be cause God willed it too right?
Didn't see God helping much when the romans invaded.
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Not to derail this thread any more than it already has been, but to address that "God's will" issue from a purely Christian perspective... and hopefully I'll keep it nice and short. ;)
God's loves every man, woman, and child on the planet (yes, and even those crazy astro/cosmonaughts off the planet!), and does not want even one to perish (2 Peter 3:9). So I can say with assurance that the Holocaust, for example, was not God's will.
However, He also has granted us free will, even when we choose things in opposition to His will. This shouldn't be that hard to comprehend, as many families operate this way. "Son, I'd really prefer if you'd stop hanging out with that gang - they're just trouble. But I'm not gonna force you; you're old enough to make your own decisions." So just because something's not His will, doesn't mean He's gonna force the issue.
There is also the matter of things that God allows to happen, in opposition to His will, things which He then turns around for good. In our example, out of the ashes of the Holocaust, the state of Israel was born.
Anyway, I hope that helps some of you understand these things. :) Now, back to your regularly scheduled bickering.
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Originally posted by karajorma
So by similar logic if they were to lose a war or get kicked off of their land that would be cause God willed it too right?
Didn't see God helping much when the romans invaded.
Really? In a way he did, according to the bible,
Luke 2:4 (New International Version)
4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.
They went there because of the census that was taken by the romans so that the prophecy would be fullfilled. So in a way, God never forsaked his people.
As per the the invasions, the book of judges illustrates a pattern, of Israel falling away from God, repenting, and being restored. See sometimes, we all need to hit rock bottum before we start to sail straight. Frankly as children, the beast thing my parents did for me was to allow me to make mistakes and use my freewill to learn.
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In which case who's to say taking Gaza away from the Jewish settlers isn't more of the same then?
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You mean God turning his back on them?
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Or doing it for the good of the settlers. That's why the romans kicked them out according to you. Why isn't this more of the same then?
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Originally posted by Sandwich
There is also the matter of things that God allows to happen, in opposition to His will, things which He then turns around for good. In our example, out of the ashes of the Holocaust, the state of Israel was born.
No offence mate but if it was God's will that created Israel, and I was Jewish, I'd be pretty pissed off at Him right now. I mean, a patch of desert surrounded by hostile countries. Not much really is it ?
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I never said the romans kicked them out for their own good. The romans carried them off for their own reasons, of which I don't know. After the cruxifiction of christ, it is considered that the old covenant that god had with israel was over. It can also be argued that the diaspera served a greated purpose, particularly the Romans sacking Jeruselem, which in fact fullfilled another prophecy, served to disperse christianity. However, I do not know how the Jewish faith views all of this or how they explain how God had seemingly forsaken them.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
No offence mate but if it was God's will that created Israel, and I was Jewish, I'd be pretty pissed off at Him right now. I mean, a patch of desert surrounded by hostile countries. Not much really is it ?
Well, turn the tables. If you are God and time after time you have rescued these people, how would you feel. Point is that the Jews turned their back on God and in anger God allowed all of that to happen.
Deuteronomy 29:23
The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger.
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So we're admitting God can get pissed and throw a tantrum? Pretty low brow for an omnipotent being...
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Originally posted by redmenace
I never said the romans kicked them out for their own good.
Never said you did. Lets look at it in simple terms though.
Despite prophesy Jews believe that God hasn't sent them the Messiah yet. So the time when God will give them back the land of Israel hasn't come to pass yet. For all we know the Messiah is due in only another 4,000 years and this is just yet another one of those Jews control Israel/Jews don't control Israel deals.
So all this "God has given us back Israel and we must keep it forever" stuff is premature. Maybe he has. Maybe he wants to wait a few more years. Till the Messiah appears the Jews can't make any claims on the land cause maybe God does want them to get kicked out again.
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Did you know that during the Crusdades, when the Crusaders couldn't find any Muslims to slaughter, would perfectly happily go and attack Jewish settlements instead?
Like most religious things, its convenient for people, if they think no-ones looking and keeping score, it tends to just go straight out the window. That's why I hate religion, it's no less 2-faced than politics.
Edit : And if they believe no-one is looking, it doesn't say much for their strength of faith either. ;)
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Originally posted by Flipside
Did you know that during the Crusdades, when the Crusaders couldn't find any Muslims to slaughter, would perfectly happily go and attack Jewish settlements instead?
I still find it amusing that the Crusaders decided to attack Conastantinople (Then a christian city) on the way to the Crusades :D
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It strikes me that the common justification tends to be - good things for the person = Gods will, bad things for the person = consequence of God giving free will.
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Originally posted by redmenace
Well, turn the tables. If you are God and time after time you have rescued these people, how would you feel. Point is that the Jews turned their back on God and in anger God allowed all of that to happen.
Deuteronomy 29:23
The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger.
That sounds like something an overbearing, jealous human might do. Doesn't exactly sound like a "higher" being.
Originally posted by karajorma
I still find it amusing that the Crusaders decided to attack Conastantinople (Then a christian city) on the way to the Crusades :D
probably just needed to warm up a bit Lol
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However, He also has granted us free will, even when we choose things in opposition to His will. This shouldn't be that hard to comprehend, as many families operate this way. "Son, I'd really prefer if you'd stop hanging out with that gang - they're just trouble. But I'm not gonna force you; you're old enough to make your own decisions." So just because something's not His will, doesn't mean He's gonna force the issue.
That's like saying to a 5 year old "Drugs are bad for you, but we're going to let you do it anyway".
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Originally posted by aldo_14
It strikes me that the common justification tends to be - good things for the person = Gods will, bad things for the person = consequence of God giving free will.
Of course it is. When did you last hear an athlete blame God for losing a game?
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Poor word choice, what I really mean is they forced God's hand. It is also worth saying that God, in the old testament, did send prophets to warn them of their impeeding peril. As per the overbearing, God, offered them a binding contract which was the attoinment of sins through the shedding of blood since no one person could follow the law perfectly. Is it overbearing to be concerned for ones people? I don't think it is overbearing when there is one human means of attonement for sin according to the Old Covenant. See, it is my personal belief, that God has a inate sense of order. In other words doing things according to a system. Sort of like Physics.
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Originally posted by Kosh
That's like saying to a 5 year old "Drugs are bad for you, but we're going to let you do it anyway".
And if God says I am going to intervene and keep you from doing drugs what, then do you say about God? See freewill is part of his creation. An example, the Shadows and Vorlons acted like Gods forcing people to take sides, influencing their evolutionary paths. Were they right to interfere in the younger races in such a way? True they did not create these younger races, however.
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If people want to believe in an interventionist God that supports or is responsible for their actions, IMO it is hypocritical and assumptive to assume that they're the only ones being 'guided' or supported. Whether or not God - in any diety form - exists, IMO it's foolish to believe that personal or religious interpretation of what is and what is not a 'blessing' upon actions can be used as justification for anything.
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Or is it that God is an illusion?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
If people want to believe in an interventionist God that supports or is responsible for their actions, IMO it is hypocritical and assumptive to assume that they're the only ones being 'guided' or supported. Whether or not God - in any diety form - exists, IMO it's foolish to believe that personal or religious interpretation of what is and what is not a 'blessing' upon actions can be used as justification for anything.
In English?
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You can't justify anything with God if it affects people who don't think God justifies it.
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...in plain English? :p
Sorry, I'm tired. Don't mind me. :p
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Originally posted by redmenace
Poor word choice, what I really mean is they forced God's hand. It is also worth saying that God, in the old testament, did send prophets to warn them of their impeeding peril.
Still hasn't sent the messiah though. At least not any messiah the Jews believe in.
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"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"
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Pretty much sums up the Jewish view of Jesus :D
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....The thing about taking any reference and particularly any statement from God in there is that it is way too easy to twist it's meaning to a particular situation and for one's own ends. I seriously doubt that those phrases have any comprehensible meaning today, since they are taken entirely out of context and age.
Comprehending them would require interpretation, which mostly means only the interpretation with the most appeal to the masses will 'survive' so to speak, but it might not necessarily be hte right one. but then the correct one might not be any of the minority groups either, since we are unable to think in the same way as the person who wrote down the information or read what he was trying to intent (again, its just an interpretation) rendering such information nearly useless.
........Just a minor thought.
jumps back out of thread before he's hit with Grenade and Rocket Launchers
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Dammit, he's fast.
*reload*
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Originally posted by karajorma
Still hasn't sent the messiah though. At least not any messiah the Jews believe in.
I am not sure quite what messiah they are waiting for. What I mean is that the old testament prophecies were fullfilled, assuming the new testament account of Christ was correct. What I mean is, the jews rejected jesus because, partly because of the religous leaders, but also because they were looking for a warrior to defeat the Romans and restore Israel to its former glory etc. I am just wondering to my self, what do they expect from a Messiah in the modern era. That said, this all has nothing to do with the pull out of Gaza (however a very interesting conversation indeed).
But like I said before, this is not simply some people invading anothers country. The jews had lived in the area for 1000s of years before being removed in the diasperas. And to make things even more awefull, these settlers have to leave their lives, homes, businesses etc. And not only that, but people, some of which would like to see the entire Jewish race wiped out, not get to take your homes, your businesses, and left over property to be claimed as their own. Personally my heart goes out to those that are being evicted.
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Originally posted by Charismatic
[religousrant] I think "WTF YOU DUMB ASSES!" @ Israle. Dammit Israle! Its YOUR land, keep it. I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them. The two disputed strips\peices of land (the west bank and gaza strip) ISRALE should take over and keep.
God gave them the land, its practially their birthright, and they give it up for peace? There will be no peace! They have given them permission to stay less then a mile away from them and bomb them when they feel like it, from now on.
Dispite that, i wonder what God is going to do about this, about Israle. Once again they disobeyed God. *Sigh*
Way back when, before they settled in israle, God said to destroy a bunch of groups of people, they did most but left some alive. Thus the palistinions. And they have plauged them ever after. Dumbasses'.[religousrant]
Hmmmm... I'm on the Palistineans (sp?) side when it comes to middle east stuff.... I mean, they were there first. They had the land for thousands of years. The jews just poured in during the last century. The Jews have no right to just come barging in and demand their holy land back, disturbing the already-settled palistineans. I think it's simply a matter of who was there first.[/IMHO]
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Jews will make the same argument, with a six thousand year precedent, KappaWing. That's why you can't use it as a justification for either side.
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Tru be dat, Mik.
But that doesent change the fact that the Jews INVADED Palestine with little/no palestinian provoking. A few thousand years should have solidified permanent Palestinian presence, but religion is a timeless thing, and people think they own something if it was theirs thousands of years ago. I can understand the Jews being fed up with the Holocaust and whatnot but that doesent give them the right to exert their unprovoked wrath on the Palestinians who have been living there for thousands of years IMO.
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In defense of Israel, that's a rather uninformed description of how the modern nation of Israel was founded.
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Some people are just so unforgiveably stupid.
*Looks at Charasmatic*
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Originally posted by Singh
....The thing about taking any reference and particularly any statement from God in there is that it is way too easy to twist it's meaning to a particular situation and for one's own ends. I seriously doubt that those phrases have any comprehensible meaning today, since they are taken entirely out of context and age.
Comprehending them would require interpretation, which mostly means only the interpretation with the most appeal to the masses will 'survive' so to speak, but it might not necessarily be hte right one. but then the correct one might not be any of the minority groups either, since we are unable to think in the same way as the person who wrote down the information or read what he was trying to intent (again, its just an interpretation) rendering such information nearly useless.
All quite true. My only response would be that when in doubt, K.I.S.S. Although there are some things we can be sure are an improvement in accuracy (see the King James' popular error in translating the "Thou shall not kill/murder" commandment), there are many others where, as you say, we simply lack the cultural and historical understanding to completely undestand the motives behind people's actions. This does not mean that we cannot glean anything out of such instances, however, it merely means that we should read as little as possible into them, and trust in God to help us with the rest.
At least, that's how I believe we should deal with things... most people - especially public figures in the church - probably aren't that careful to temper their interpretation of the Bible with the "we aren't the author" clause. :doubt:
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Originally posted by redmenace
I am not sure quite what messiah they are waiting for.
No idea either but they've rejected Jesus as being him so obviously they're still waiting. :)
Originally posted by redmenace
What I mean is that the old testament prophecies were fullfilled, assuming the new testament account of Christ was correct. What I mean is, the jews rejected jesus because, partly because of the religous leaders, but also because they were looking for a warrior to defeat the Romans and restore Israel to its former glory etc.
From the point of view of a christian the prophecies were fullfilled. I'm not disputing that or why the Jews rejected Jesus as being their messiah. From the point of view of a Jew however they haven't been. Which means that they are still waiting for the prophesy to be fullfilled. So it looks like they're waiting for a prophet to lead them.
5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
Doesn't sound much like Jesus to me but christians can believe whatever you want. I'm talking about the Jews. They're still waiting for this guy to turn up.
Originally posted by redmenace
I am just wondering to my self, what do they expect from a Messiah in the modern era. That said, this all has nothing to do with the pull out of Gaza (however a very interesting conversation indeed).
Actually it does. My point was pretty simple. The Jews can't claim that the land of Israel is being given back to them by God until he sends them the messiah to throw the Assyrians out. Then and only then do they have proof that God wants them to have the land back. Till then it's just guesswork whether he wants them to have the land back or if he wants them to eventually be thrown out a second time and spend another thousand years without a homeland.
Originally posted by redmenace
But like I said before, this is not simply some people invading anothers country. The jews had lived in the area for 1000s of years before being removed in the diasperas.
So? The Palestinians have lived there for 1000s of years after the jews were removed in the dispora. Quite frankly I'd say they have the better claim. If you're going to use prior ownership as a claim you might as well all pack up the whole of America and give it back to the native americans. Surely they have an even better claim than the one the Jews have on Israel. They were there for 10s of thousands of years after all and were never actually kicked out of the country.
Hell for that matter the Welsh could knock on my door and demand their country back too. If you start making claims on what happened hundreds and thousands of years ago it ends up getting stupid. Quite frankly the Spanish have the best claim to Israel if you start doing that. They're partly the descendants of the carthaginians who are the desendants of the phoenicians who were the people the Jews turfed out to make their homeland in the first place.
Originally posted by redmenace
And to make things even more awefull, these settlers have to leave their lives, homes, businesses etc. And not only that, but people, some of which would like to see the entire Jewish race wiped out, not get to take your homes, your businesses, and left over property to be claimed as their own. Personally my heart goes out to those that are being evicted.
Their own stupid fault really. Who told them to go settle on stolen land? If they believed that God had given them land and would let them keep it forever (Despite the precidents in the bible) then they were fools.
If they believed that politicians could be trusted (especially a wanker like Sharon) then again they are fools.
I said the first time that I heard of the settlements that these people were f**king idiots for settling in the middle of a potential warzone and that sooner or later the land would have to be given back to the palestinians. In fact pretty much the whole world said that.
I don't bother to feel sympathy for someone who is suffering the consequences of doing something incredibly stupid after being warned several times that it was incredibly stupid. They brought it on themselves plain and simple.
EDIT : Tell a lie. I feel sorry for the kids involved. They weren't responsible for their parents stupidity. That said if their parents weren't being such dicks about leaving the settlements this would be no more traumatic to them than moving house usually is.
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One strange this I recall for the bible is that it sez Israel will be formed AFTER the Messiahs arrival.
Israel as a state was formed a long time ago. Doesn't that mean the messiah was allready here? Who are they waiting for then?
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Don't ask me, you know what I believe.
Anyway, as usual, Joseph Farah cuts right to the point in his editorials:
[q]Who's victimizing whom in Mideast?
For a moment, just put aside all of your preconceived ideas about the Middle East.
The conventional wisdom of the U.S. State Department, the European Union, the United Nations, the international media and, of course, the Arab oil potentates suggests the root problem is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
It is suggested that Israel is not doing enough to help the poor, homeless Palestinian Arabs.
Read more... (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45686)
[/q]
[q]Ariel Sharon's logic
In forcibly removing thousands of Jews from their homes and businesses in Gaza, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon came up with yet another justification for this illegal, immoral and strategically illogical move.
In a televised speech this week on the eve of the unilateral surrender of Jewish communities to terrorists, Sharon praised Gaza's settlers as "pioneers," but insisted that it is time for Israel to leave the area after 38 years.
"We cannot hold Gaza for good," he said. "More than a million Palestinians live there, doubling their numbers every generation."
Now that may sound like sensible pragmatism. Jews are outnumbered and the demographics are getting worse.
But, in reality, it makes no sense. It is nothing more than excuse-making for irresponsible, shortsighted and outrageous actions.
If this is strictly a numbers game, Israel ought to consider packing up and leaving the Middle East altogether right now. Because the fact of the matter is that Jews are vastly outnumbered in their neighborhood. Period. End of story. There are 300 million Arabs in the Middle East and fewer than 5 million Jews.
Read more... (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45831)
[/q]
And out of curiosity, I used Google Earth to measure the distance between Gaza City, Gush Katif, and Ashkelon. The distance between Gaza City and Gush Katif is ~11.5 miles; the distance between Gaza City and Ashkelon is ~9 miles. Oh, and Gaza City to Jerusalem? ~47 miles.