Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on August 16, 2005, 02:11:43 am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4145356.stm
I found this to be a good summary of drama that is going on in Asia about Japan's past war crimes.
I have a feeling that this issue is not going away for a very long time......
What do you guys think about this?
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Japanese textbooks should be revised and schools should teach the history better. I know from experience that Japanese people often downplay their country's war crimes and yet continually ***** about the atomic bomb. I've also noticed the "blame the US" talk too. In fact, I've even heard an opinion that Japan was "freeing" Asia from European oppression. Uhh, not quite...
However, I don't see anything wrong with the Yasukuni shrine. Whatever they did in their life, those people are dead now. The Japanese are big on paying their respects to the dead and I don't see any reason for other countries with different cultures to keep *****ing about it.
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By the way, I hate the word censor. It makes my post seem more offensive than it really is.
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However, I don't see anything wrong with the Yasukuni shrine. Whatever they did in their life, those people are dead now. The Japanese are big on paying their respects to the dead and I don't see any reason for other countries with different cultures to keep *****ing about it.
The problem is that the shrine contains many war crimminals. Most people wouldn't like it very much if people in Germany honored the tomb of Hitler, Goebbles, and other Nazi war crimminals. It has nothing to do with the culture, it is about who is being remembered.
In fact, I've even heard an opinion that Japan was "freeing" Asia from European oppression. Uhh, not quite...
You're right. It was just replacing European oppression and racism with Japanese oppression and racism.
I've also noticed the "blame the US" talk too.
Then again there is a lot of "blame the US" talk everywhere except the US. :p
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[q]
You're right. It was just replacing European oppression and racism with Japanese oppression and racism.[/q]
Now just a damned minute, all we ever did was sell the Chinese drugs... :p
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Originally posted by Kosh
The problem is that the shrine contains many war crimminals. Most people wouldn't like it very much if people in Germany honored the tomb of Hitler, Goebbles, and other Nazi war crimminals. It has nothing to do with the culture, it is about who is being remembered.
Uhh, it has everything to do with culture.
From Wikipedia:
Many Japanese see a cultural difference involved. The Chinese, unlike the Japanese, do not believe that a person's crimes are absolved after death. While China and Korea criticize Koizumi's actions, the prime minister has said: "Why keep blaming the dead for the crimes they committed when they were alive?" But many criticize this remark by saying although the dead is the cause, it's obviously the living officials China and Korea are blaming the most and this remark is meant to distract attention.
Now I've read that there's a pamphlet distributed at the shrine which is quite biased towards the Japanese. That should be changed if the shrine wants to be taken seriously.
Ultimately though, the shrine is independent and not affiliated with the government. They're free to do as they like.
You're right. It was just replacing European oppression and racism with Japanese oppression and racism.
The point is it was portrayed in a positive light as if the Japanese were heroes, and they were not.
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No culture wants its past decision potrayed in a negative light. That said, the Chinese need to let up: learn from the past, don't wallow in it. On the other hand, the Japanese need to let up: learn from the past, don't ignore the facts for a happy reinterpretation.
Its like what get's taught in American high schools as "American History". Half of its wrong, and the other half is highly distorted propaganda. When people get to university and take proper history classes, they're all screwed up, because they've been taught fable and myth, not history. If they Japanese continue in that vein ("freeing Asian from... oppression" my ass: Nanjing and the Phillipines put the lie to that), they're going to end up as bad as us.
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Apparently in a survey less than 50% (43%) of Japanese blamed Japan for starting the Pacific war. I don't think you can hold the past against the present 60 years on (so the Chinese are getting a bit too antsy IMO), but you still have a duty to recognise it (say, like the Germans have; although the swastika ban on even historically based games and literature seems a bit OTT). From what I can tell, the Japanese education system has never really recognised th extent war crimes committed by Japan in WW2; I think the Rape of Nanking, for example, is heavily underplayed.
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It's like i always say; Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out...now, let's see how many people are offended by that
...but really, not all the blame should rest on Japan; I'm not argueing against the facts, Japan all but began the war herself, but there were many factors at play in the region at the time, as well as the global region, that contributed to Japan's descision to vie for Pacific Superiority. I think we all remember the last time War Guilt was all shovelled upon a single country...and we all know how that turned out...
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Originally posted by Kosh
The problem is that the shrine contains many war crimminals. Most people wouldn't like it very much if people in Germany honored the tomb of Hitler, Goebbles, and other Nazi war crimminals. It has nothing to do with the culture, it is about who is being remembered.
One thing to note: behind those war criminals, are the shrines of many other Japanese that died in the war, not just them. These people, much like any other, had families too, and it is for these people that the shrine is actually intended.
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Originally posted by Singh
One thing to note: behind those war criminals, are the shrines of many other Japanese that died in the war, not just them. These people, much like any other, had families too, and it is for these people that the shrine is actually intended.
Thing is, if Germany had a war memorial that had Hitler, Goebbels, etc named together with the ordinary soldiers, you'd expect people to get a bit annoyed about it.
When you have a situation that war criminals - responsible for thousands of deaths - are being placed in a shrine of worship, it's understandable people will be pissed off about it.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Thing is, if Germany had a war memorial that had Hitler, Goebbels, etc named together with the ordinary soldiers, you'd expect people to get a bit annoyed about it.
When you have a situation that war criminals - responsible for thousands of deaths - are being placed in a shrine of worship, it's understandable people will be pissed off about it.
I'm not denying that they'd be pissed off; just wanted to point out that if you look past that issue, you realize that it's not just for them at all.
Other than that though, my viewpoint on this is decidedly nuetral.
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Originally posted by Singh
I'm not denying that they'd be pissed off; just wanted to point out that if you look past that issue, you realize that it's not just for them at all.
I think that is the issue, though.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I think that is the issue, though.
Really? from the news reports here, it seems the issue and controversy is more of the Japanese PM's visit and homage to the shrine as opposed to the Shrine itself.
Must be mistaken then.
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That said, the Chinese need to let up: learn from the past, don't wallow in it. On the other hand, the Japanese need to let up: learn from the past, don't ignore the facts for a happy reinterpretation.
It seems perfectly obvious, but then you have the nationalism factor on both sides and that complicates things REAL fast.
And with talk of Japanese re-armament (US is putting a lot of pressure on them), that has the Chinese a bit on edge for obvious reasons.
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Originally posted by Kosh
Then again there is a lot of "blame the US" talk everywhere except the US. :p
Yeah, cause in the US it's "blame Bush." :nervous: :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Singh
Really? from the news reports here, it seems the issue and controversy is more of the Japanese PM's visit and homage to the shrine as opposed to the Shrine itself.
Must be mistaken then.
It's because the Shrine is a place of worship (of the dead remembered therein). So, yeah, it's about the PMs visit, but it's also about the very nature of the place.
Both, really, then.
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The problem is a cultural one, I think. The Japanese, more so than many, have a culture where honour and shame are very important. For the Japanese, saying that they were responsible for all the horrendous actions that were carried out would be a major blow to national pride.
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This is why history classes are so pointless.
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Meh, like the winners didn't do freaky ****. It's just that nobody talks about that, because they write history. Sure, some are worse than other, and I believe people should answer for their crimes, but since we know that the privilidged ones won't, what's the point?
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
The problem is a cultural one, I think. The Japanese, more so than many, have a culture where honour and shame are very important. For the Japanese, saying that they were responsible for all the horrendous actions that were carried out would be a major blow to national pride.
Actually, that is a common Asian cultural value, to have your family's name stained is the ultimate insult, and we're talking about this on a national level here.
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Originally posted by BlackDove
Meh, like the winners didn't do freaky ****. It's just that nobody talks about that, because they write history. Sure, some are worse than other, and I believe people should answer for their crimes, but since we know that the privilidged ones won't, what's the point?
That's true, although it's not an arguement to ignore war crimes.