Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Starks on August 18, 2005, 10:06:57 am
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It seems that certain modlers are trying to redefine what makes a ship Shivan. With the rush to HTL and hi-poly, a lot ships are getting much needed makeovers. But somewhere along the line, Shivan design is losing its meaning.
To me, Shivan design is defined as:
Red and black (Asmodeus and Mephisto being the most prominent exceptions, there are others)
Spikey protrusions and radical angles
Insectoid shapes
What's your definition of Shivan?
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Deadly?
Large?
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Evil.
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Constant. And sistent.
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To me, Shivan design is defined as:
Red and black (Asmodeus and Mephisto being the most prominent exceptions, there are others)
Spikey protrusions and radical angles
Insectoid shapes
I basically agree with all that. I think the Asmodeus may actually have been an oversight on Volition part. IIRC the Shivan ships were all green at some point in FS1's development, but they changed everything to red for the final release, so they may just have forgotten about that one.
The Mephisto on the other hand looks more like a big missile than a ship. :D
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if you had to pick one word, it would have to be evil
spikes, sharp angles and assymetrical design also work well
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To paraphrase Adams:
"The designer of the [Shivan ships] had clearly not been instructed to beat around the bush. 'Make [them] evil,' he'd been told. 'Make it totally clear that [these ships have] a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. [These are not ships for taking cruises with or going fishing, these are ships] for going out and making people miserable with.'"
:D
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I think they should look like their names sujest, a Demon should look like well a demon. Grimloq had a great idea on how they should look, with bones and stuff sticking out, making them look like a skeletal monster from a nightmare.
Thats how they should look, something to send chills down your spine when you see them.;)
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I always thought the Shivan homeworld/hive was Candy Land...
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Originally posted by Jal-18
To paraphrase Adams:
"The designer of the [Shivan ships] had clearly not been instructed to beat around the bush. 'Make [them] evil,' he'd been told. 'Make it totally clear that [these ships have] a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. [These are not ships for taking cruises with or going fishing, these are ships] for going out and making people miserable with.'"
:D
That is one of most fitting descriptions of the Sathanas.
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For all we know, the Sathanas can be a pleasure boat...
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an evil pleasure boat. with a right and a wrong end and spiky bits
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A right and a wrong end? I like that. :D
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Originally posted by Turambar
an evil pleasure boat. with a right and a wrong end and spiky bits
my right end is the one with the spikes.
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Hmmm...
SFr Dis: Hey Sath... You have bent spikes...
SJ Sath: Mine are bigger though, it's also how you use them...
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I'm not much of a fan of the Sath, to be honest. It's big and scary, but I much prefer the FS1 ships. More of a "metal insect" look, rather than the spike-fest the FS2 Shivans are...
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FS1 shivans FTW!!!
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FS1 shivans rock
Teh Demon is the best shivan desing ...EVAR...
Every seen one looming over you in a nebula? Scary..
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You can clearly see that, in the Freespace1 incursion, the Shivan armada was at that time undergoing a generational advance technologically, and by that i mean;
You'll notice that the FS1 Shivan Capital Ships, namely the Cain/Lilith, and the Lucy, all exhibit very similar componenets. The underside of the vessels are essentially the same, and the presence of 'Prongs' on both models further indicates similarity. Now, in terms of fighters and bombers, the SF Scorpion and SB Shaitan in particular exhibit the same blocky-style contruction visible in both the Cain/Lilith and Lucy models.
Looking at the rest of the fleet, the Demon stands out as quite a different design style aesthetically speaking. The spikes/spines along the ventral port & starboard edges do not appear on any other ship in the Shivan Fleet, prompting the idea that said Fleet was - at the time - undergoing a generational shift technologically speaking; moving from, say, 1st Generation Shivan Technology, to a spikier, meaner-looking 2nd Generation Shivan Technology.
This '2nd Generation' of technology is shown all but fully implemented in the FS2 incursion. Under the assumption that these are indeed the exact same Shivans as in FS1, thereby barring any arguement of different tribes/species/regional blocs of Shivans, it is clear that Shivan Technology by 2367 has almost completed its 'update' if you will to their next Generation of technology.
This shift is shown by the new, unique designs of Shivan Ships that pour out of the Nebula, exhibiting far more spine-like constructs on the outer hull, and an overall more juxtapositioned design. This is especially visible on the SD Ravana, which is nothing at all like the designs of the FS1-era ships; all semblance of the styles seen on the Lucy are gone, leaving instead a seemingly random assortment of large Spikes, an irregular engine design, and a non-symmetrical hull, something that really stands out in the FS Universe. It is obvious that Shivan Technology had undergone a complete restructuring of not only their technological style, but also a complete overhaul of their capital ship aesthetics.
Even the fighters of this re-designed armada exhibit this advance. The clunkiest fighters and bombers of the FS1-era Shivan, ie. the SF Scorpion & SB Shaitan, are no longer present, replaced by the sleeker, meaner looking SF Mara, and SB Nahema, both of which show considerable use of the Spine/Spike design, further emphasising the prospect of a complete Generational Overhaul of their fleet that was already underway when they stumbled across Ross 128 in 2335.
Indeed, this process to a new Generation of Technology is obviously incomplete, evidenced by the continued use of the old Cain and Lilith designs. But the sudden upsurgeance of this new, Chaotic Insectoid (possibly even Arachnid) build-style demonstrates that the Shivans as a species can alter the aesthetic qualities of their ships somewhat quickly.
As such, I personally implore model-makers to break free of the clichéd Insectoid/Arachnoid-From-Hell look, and instead come up with your own ideas of what Shivan Technology would look like in your own mind, based on the entire spectrum of Shivan Ships aesthetically...rather than simply churn out the Spiny, insect-like abominations i've seen multiplying as of late...
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Put simply - this is everything Shivan.
(http://www.penguinbomb.com/lightspeed/screenshots/shinemaps/release9.jpg)
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On the Asmodeus...Volition's early FS1 beta and alpha screen shots showed the Shivans with a grey and green set of profiles. Later shots showed a shift to the red and near black colors. I think they were looking too "Borgish" so they changed them. Good call I think.
All of the new Shivan vessels in FS2 were red. Stay with the red...although green might be useful in some instances. A bit of diversity in technology isn't bad.
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There is always a perfect balance in Shivan ships between "flat edged techie parts" (like Shivan engine systems) and "extremely spiky deformed thing".
Shivan ships look like normal ships, only half of the entire ship or more is deformed into spiky protrusions and sharp angles. Think evil organic, but with metal technologies obviously THROWN on top of it. That's what Shivan is. Look at the Lucifer's armor plates, on the top of it...
Incidentally, the FS1 style of Shivan spacecraft definitely had a better balance between technological and "organic" design than the FS2 style did. So maybe we should be looking at FS1 ships for inspiration moreso than the FS2 ones.
When was the last time we all saw a custom Shivan warship based on the old SC Cain and Lilith classes' designs? Or The Lucy? A shivan warship exuding "Classic Shivan"?
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Scorpio's FTW.
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i thought that FS2 Shivans were more of a seamless integration of the evil spikies and the techy stuff. the FS1 Shivans were the semi-clunky frankensteinish conflabulations of technology and shivan stuff, the FS2 Shivans like the Mara and Astaroth are more blended, and we kinda saw it a little in FS1, remember the best shivan fighter (hardest to kill) was the dragon, and that looked pretty smoothly integrated to me
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yeah, i think that's what i was trying to say. and IMHO,
"semi-clunky frankensteinish conflabulations of technology and shivan stuff"
make THE BEST shivan warships.
(I liked the Cain/Lilith design, lol)
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My favorite Shivan ship is the Ravana. Really has a fierce, alien look to it. It is more in the FS1 style than most other FS2 Shivan ships though.
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Eva FTW of shivan destroyers tbh (aka Demon).
Though not many things can match teh Lucy. She was just the pinnacle and epitome of PWNZAGE.
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I'll take that one Shivan bomber... Sepharim? and the Mara. Those are the two best canon Shivan designs. The best though, is the Naga, if I do say so myself. ;)
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Originally posted by CP5670
My favorite Shivan ship is the Ravana. Really has a fierce, alien look to it. It is more in the FS1 style than most other FS2 Shivan ships though.
:yes: :nod:
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Shivans demonstrate great variety of design, all things considered. The Manticore and Scorpion could have passed for Terran with the right texturing.
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The Lucy has got to be one of, if not THE coolest Shivan ship there is. I mean come on, it looks like some kind of giant sea creature except with lots of red glowing stuff and spiky bits; it just rocks.
wtf does FTW mean?
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For The Win. The origin is a television game show called Hollywood Squares, a sort of "Do you trust the [usually B-list] celebrity to answer the question?"game meets Tic-Tac-Toe/Noughts-and-Crosses. Often, players would say something like, "Burt Reynolds for the win!" or "Sandy Duncan for the block!"
Internet slang (by way of SomethingAwful, I expect) has shortened this to "FTW", usually meaning that whatever preceded it is inarguably correct and should terminate all discussion.
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All shivan designs are pretty damn scary - the Lucifer would rank first, but most of it's fear came from the fact that it was invulnerable in FS1 - when you compare it to the sheer evilness of a six kilometer long Sathanas that can actually bend it's arms together and then set off one of the most powerfull reactions known to man.......that fear, that evilness sorts of fades away.
But even the Sathanas doesn't take the cake....it's those damn Liliths....
Imagine this scenario: you're flying along, all happy and what-not. You see a Cain class cruiser and go "ha! PWNED!" after you killed it, but suffer a little sensor damage. Then a Lilith pops up but you mistake it for a Cain and start attacking it......and a big fat beam pops out from the rear and cuts your hull to 20% before hte missiles hit and at the last second you see you've done less than 2% damage to it's hull.
Yes. The Lilith is simply pure, complete and utter evil.
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The Lucifer reminds me of a puppy.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The Lucifer reminds me of a puppy.
:wtf: say what ?!
Originally posted by CP5670
My favorite Shivan ship is the Ravana. Really has a fierce, alien look to it. It is more in the FS1 style than most other FS2 Shivan ships though.
Loved that bit in the Bosch monologue when it appeared to be shadowing the Iceni in the nebula.
I reckon the Rakshasa is my personal favourite. Has just enough "insect-meets-somethin'-freaky". And when all it's forward beams open up at once it looks ace, though not incrdibley powerful.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
The Lucifer reminds me of a puppy.
The Hecate reminds me of a puppy.
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As much as I hate to say it, the Lucifer doesn't look Shivan to me. It has too much unbroken metal plating.
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Originally posted by Roanoke
:wtf: say what ?!
It's the snout and the 2 wee arms. Like a nose & forelegs.
I never found it particularly intimidating looking, anyways.
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That must be one f'ed up evil puppy.
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I liked the fanmade SCa Shiamak. It had a weird - looking design unlike any other Shivan ship but it still looked Shivan.
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Yes, it's also one of the most phallus-live ships ever to grace FS2...:nervous:
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You just have a dirty mind
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The Shiamak isn't phallic, and if it is to you I urge you to see a doctor now. It's...y'know, bent. Though now that you mention it, the Lucifer is phallic.
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Of course, that's hypocritical considering my name
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Though now that you mention it, the Lucifer is phallic.
Now that is reason to see a doctor! But seriously, I saw one of those stupid 'crazy TV shows from other countries' things on TV (I believe it was Channel 4) while I was in England a few years ago, and they showed this news-report from Paraguay, or Venezuala or some dang place where a guy did have a...wing-dang-doodle...that apparently resembled Lucy somewhat...and by that i mean, he literally needed two hands to take a piss...:nervous:
...now, enough doodle-talk, back to...uh...what were we talking about again...?
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I feel that the Lucifer expresses the "Shivan" identity better than any other ship. Think about it. A ship the size of an Orion, yet, it can tear a planet too pieces. It was the pinnacle of shivan design, and a key figure of FS1. As such, I feel that it is the most credible design on which to base analysis of shivan ship design.
@Singh: lol I can top that!
Officer on Orion destroyer: Enemy cain destroyed, wait, another jumped in!
Captain: Another? Jesus, I hate these things not worth the()*_*
*Blasted to smithereens by Lilith LRed
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What would be seriously cool is if someone made a Lucifer style Shivan ship segmented in a way that it could separate Star Trek style and have the individual pieces chase after you >;]
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@Gregster: Use multi-docking + some SEXPs??? Nice idea. :)
(I once thought of an advanced version of the Mara that could separate some of it's spikes like that and use them as drones, but it'd loose some maneuverability/speed without them)
Personally, I too think there are two kinds of Shivan designs, though both of them seem to share the "insect"-look - Scorpion and Lucy included. The Dragon looks nearly Terran, I'd say though.
I much prefer the "evil high-tech"-look from FS1 (Basilisk, Lilith, Lucy, Dragon, Nephilim and some others). :D
And if you like the Lucy, try LS' "green Lucifer"-glowmaps - they're absolutely stunning! :yes: :yes: :mad2: :yes: :yes: :yes: ( <- this is supposed to be a happy Shivan... ;) )
And speaking of creating ships based off the Lilith/Cain - I have one WIP of a fighter somewhere... sadly my mods are only evolving very slowly.
Just a few days ago I started working again on a Shivan bomber model which I could'nt make heads or tails of for a while (started it somewhere in late 2001 or early 2002 I think... and it went comatous some months after :( ).
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The Shivan ships are very Dante-esque to my mind, theres a lot of beetle in there, but with strange asymetrical 'lumps' that make them look malformed. Some of them give a Skeletal feel to them as well, which adds to the eerieness.
I still think the Shivans could be made a lot more eerie feeling by looking at their sound effects etc, I'm not too fond of their current 'Knight Industries 2000' engine noise :(
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The SB Vindychaal is the most evil craft to fly against.
I was stupid enough to attack it from the front.
The beam tore up my hull bad!
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You searched for an 8 month old thread to post that?
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*golf clap*
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lol, you made it send me an email alert
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I don't think I ever got around to reading this thread before.
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Least now it got my attention.... :D
@Gregster2k, damn it... Now you inspired me for a "Battle of the Planets" style monster (for FS2 Robot Wars) Like a chinese dragon with like 20 figher segments as main body, a tail ship and a head mothership... - Roar...
Now just need someone to actually make it... :nervous:
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:bump:
You can clearly see that, in the Freespace1 incursion, the Shivan armada was at that time undergoing a generational advance technologically, and by that i mean:
I'd have to disagree with that, there simply isn't enough information to prove the Shivans have more adanced technology now than they used to. I personally always figured the "first generation designs" were subspace-worthy enough to get through some of the unstable jump nodes and Ross 128 and Ikeya, while the "generation 2 designs" required a stable node- such as the Knossos jump node, to get through, and that most beam cannons interfere with subspace.
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I think that's the best excuse that I've heard of for why the Shivans didn't have beam cannons (except on the Lucifer) in FS1.
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Why thank ya. :cool:
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(http://www.game-warden.com/nukemod-cos/Images/sideshot1qh.png)
shivan enough for you :D
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Ah, the Dante. One of my faves. :cool:
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and now that the glowpoint bug in pcs is fixed i can finish her off :D
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Shivan = FSAA TO THE EXTREME
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Shivan ships need to look 'injuman', barbs and spikes where you'd expect smooth planes, and eerie shapes on the hull that cannot be defined in purpose. If anything, I'd say that FS1 Vasudan ships don't look Alien enough. I liked the FS1 shivan ships, they had a real aura of menace, Much like the crew of Shivan ships, the ships are 'Insectoid' in form but not in purpose.
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Another important aspect is 3-fold (120 deg.) symmetry and triangles, or occasionally 4-fold like the sathanas. Except 4-fold is pretty terran.
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From original FS2 i liked Ravana very much. First time when i saw it in my FRED2, i thought it's prototype Shivan warship with uber beam in front. I was disappointed when i've discovered it's real use, but still model is very good.
From mods i like Diablo, Vindychal and Chimera.
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Not nice. please somebody hand me a bug smacker ;)