Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: redmenace on August 31, 2005, 09:30:36 am
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http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4be.htm
Why the hell is he releasing oil from the strategic oil reserves? They are meant to be used in absolute dire situations. Not to gain browny points. ****. This is almost as bad as when clinton did it prior to the election to help Al Gore. What a bunch of ****ing morons.
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becasue this is the first time that the oil co could feel the affects of diminshed supply. until now they've just been charging us more to offset the costs of highly priced oil. After Katrina there will be refineries not running at full capacity becasue they are damaged or can't get the oil they need, therefore losing money. and Bush can't stand to see the oil companies lose money.
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Just let the market work. The reduced supply will cause the price to go up, the increased price will cause people to cut down on their use of oil, and the reduced usage will offset the reduced supply. Subsidizing the oil supply is price controlling in reverse, and it masks the underlying problem.
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That's all fine and well Goob, but bear in mind that what's considered "expensive" in america would be dirt cheap when compared with our prices in the UK right now. That means as the US suffers increased oil costs, we suffer even more and we don't have the buffer zone of additional income relative to previous prices to absorb it.
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Indeed, according to the Globe and Mail the hit to oil supplies taken is equivalent to losing an entire Canada's worth of crude.
Simply put, it's enough to hurt a lot more than just the oil companies in the US and despite what people wish for, the US economy is still intricately tied into the global one.
Speaking as a Canadian, our gas prices jumped up to 20 cents Canadian per liter this weekend. That's about 75 cents US per gallon.
In any case, the reserves were set up for if oil shortages would have large economic ramifications and I think that applies to the current situation (albeit it's too early since not all the damage reports have come in and been reported).
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you have 20 cents/litre gas over there!? how?
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Originally posted by vyper
That's all fine and well Goob, but bear in mind that what's considered "expensive" in america would be dirt cheap when compared with our prices in the UK right now. That means as the US suffers increased oil costs, we suffer even more and we don't have the buffer zone of additional income relative to previous prices to absorb it.
Maybe you ought to talk to the gov't about lowering taxes on gas. Nah, never mind, enviromental extremists would ***** and mone.
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Originally posted by MicroPsycho
you have 20 cents/litre gas over there!? how?
I mean that it jumped up 20 cents in some places.
Where I am it's $1.11.7 (yes they actualy include the fractional cents) per litre.
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All American gas prices have fractions too.. here in Oregon, gas costs $2.65.9 a gallon. Prices shift nearly every day from $2.55.9 to $2.69.9. And yes, the fraction is always 9/10.
Well at least Bush is doing something to help with the hurricane. *shrugs*
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Originally posted by vyper
That's all fine and well Goob, but bear in mind that what's considered "expensive" in america would be dirt cheap when compared with our prices in the UK right now. That means as the US suffers increased oil costs, we suffer even more and we don't have the buffer zone of additional income relative to previous prices to absorb it.
That's because your price consists of 90% taxes.
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Consider yourself lucky. Here in France, the litre is between 1.1 and 1.4 euros depending on the kind and where you fill your tank.
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But you guys in Europe drive cars, not tanks like here in the US.
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:lol:
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Originally posted by Ford Prefect
But you guys in Europe drive cars, not tanks like here in the US.
It's almost 200 meters to nearest grocery store -> I need a Hummer 3.
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Silly. Rather than allow the market to reach new equilibria as the supply situation changes, Americans are going to see a sharp rise as soon as the reserves are depleted. It's really short-sighted, and he doesn't really need it for political capital seeing as he's in his final term anyway. If anything he's damaging the prospects of his successor.
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President Bush doesn't make mistakes, traitor. :p
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Oh nos....I am being unpatriotic
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*SWAT tems storm is and takes SadisticSid captive*
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It went up for a bit to like $3.20 over here...
Gas is freaking crazy right now.
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IT HAS BEGUN! REPENT YOUR EVIL WAYS AND CRAY FOR FORGIVNESS! THE END HAS COME!
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Hmm before now I wasn't aware how significant NO was to the oil market in the US. But, as Goober said, the market will take care of it. The disaster should be by no means long-term for the oil business and draining the reserves is unnecessary from that perspective. Instead consumers and business should be persuaded to cut back on their consumption by rising prices.
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Just a neat picture.
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"Still undecided is whether or not to call for a nationwide effort to reduce energy consumption during this emergency," a top Bush source explains. "It is seriously being considered."
A second White House source says there are no plans for the president to address the country on gas.
Dunno the verifiability of this news source, but that sounds very, very bad.
IMHO what they should be doing is investing some money into methods of manufacturing and refueling that involve less oil. Not sitting on their hands, occassionally chatting about asking people to use less. Maybe people would listen if they did and do something about it...buy more fuel efficient cars or something.
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Here's something to chew on.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050829/wl_afp/usweathervenezuelaoil_050829235602
"We place at the disposition of the people of the United States in the event of shortages -- we have drinking water, food, we can provide fuel," Chavez told reporters.
Venezuela, a constant target for US attacks, is offering oil to the US to make up for the Gulf of Mexico fields that have been hit by Katrina. That dastardly Chavez, does his evil know no bounds!
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I thought he was only offering it to the working class and poor?
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No, that's a different initiative (I think). Venezuela offered that a week or so before Katrina hit.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Just let the market work. The reduced supply will cause the price to go up, the increased price will cause people to cut down on their use of oil, and the reduced usage will offset the reduced supply. Subsidizing the oil supply is price controlling in reverse, and it masks the underlying problem.
Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. America is so heavily dependant on oil for even everyday life that another crisis like the 70's could probably cripple the economy.
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Well, dunno if they're having this problem elsewhere, but here in Nashville gas stations are starting to run out of gasoline period. It's not a matter of keeping prices down, it's a matter of having something to sell. They want to keep stocking the stations if possible, because if people start panicking that there's no gas, they'll run out and buy a bunch as fast as possible which will make the situation worse.
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Well, dunno if they're having this problem elsewhere, but here in Nashville gas stations are starting to run out of gasoline period.
Interesting, that happened in Guangdong a month ago. I remember seeing pictures on the net of of very long lines of cars. Reminded me of seeing pictures in my history textbook of the 70's oil crisis.
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w00t gas prices jumped about 50 cents in 8 hours 2.50 to 3.00. Looks like i should start biking 10 miles to school with 40 pounds of books :\
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Do you think gas prices will go down after the US makes Iraq the 51st state? :D
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Bush needs to sign an executive order temporarily halting all gas tax. I think that would lower the price faster than the federal reserve being released.
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yeah dropping the 5 cent gas tax will realy help with the 50 cent hicke in prices, this is unfortunately what I think these reserves were made for, to keep the oil suply going durring a temporary peroid of crisis, hopefully they'll be able to get the oil flowing again (at least to the extent posable) before we run out
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Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Bush needs to sign an executive order temporarily halting all gas tax. I think that would lower the price faster than the federal reserve being released.
In certain areas...namely my house, the price isn't the problem (it is A problem). The bigger problem is that there is NO gas to sell at overinflated prices. Doesn't matter if it's cheap, if there isn't any to sell to the gas stations around here, it won't make much difference.
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All this gas nonsence just as I'm about to get my first car...yeesh...at least I live next to a refinery.
Hopefully this will provide some initiative for people to care whether or not their cars are fuel efficient. With enough luck, they'll pressure their representitives, who will pressure Bush, and we'll get some progress.
*Laughs at all the suburbanites who bought Hummer H1,2,3s*
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Originally posted by redmenace
Maybe you ought to talk to the gov't about lowering taxes on gas. Nah, never mind, enviromental extremists would ***** and mone.
I don't mind disincentive taxes to a degree. I certainly think the US needs them more than us given your typical engine size and consumption, which is beyond the realms of rediculous. The problem is that people in the UK drive cars you lot think of as small, and we can weather fairly sharp tax hikes in prices as a result. What we cannot weather is sharp increases in the market price on top of current taxes - something you can absorb much easier due to your already low prices in the first place.
Until a few months ago my fuel costs were managable, even with the tax you mention - but then the market shifted rediculously and now the effect is to alter my mileage (that would be 40 quid a month btw - about $80, compared to what's now looking like £60-80 quid depending on how often I go out - all this on a 1.6 Rover Saloon). My father is spending approximately $80 a week on petrol (2.0L Ford Mondeo).
My original point stands: you are going to get an increase in price that's managable. We are going to get an increase that's not despite the fact it should realistically be the other way around.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
All this gas nonsence just as I'm about to get my first car...yeesh...at least I live next to a refinery.
Hopefully this will provide some initiative for people to care whether or not their cars are fuel efficient. With enough luck, they'll pressure their representitives, who will pressure Bush, and we'll get some progress.
*Laughs at all the suburbanites who bought Hummer H1,2,3s*
See that's better thinking.
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It went up 50 cents here overnight to $3.00.
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were at $2.99
it cost me $30 this morning to fill my tank, thank god I got a efficent car recently (40mpg)
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Originally posted by Kosh
Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. America is so heavily dependant on oil for even everyday life that another crisis like the 70's could probably cripple the economy.
Capitalist economies naturally follow a cycle of boom and recession. Once the economy balances out it will start growing again.
The problem is that artificially extending the boom makes the recession worse.
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The rules of Supply and Demand only apply during normal market conditions.
It is also known that normal capitalistic markets work... to a certain point. It tends to break down when something extreme starts to occur (like a monopoly) which is why there's government intervention and regulations.
In this situation, it's not so much trying make economy boom but keeping it from collapsing. The oil reserves were created for this very purpose: in case oil supplies are catastrophically diminished, the economy won't be hit so hard that a heavy recession appears.
Despite all the oil use for cars, more significant is the use in the industries and for power. The nature of it means that it isn't as simple as just reducing oil usage. At least not immediately without heavy ramifications.
In any case, it would be good if this serves as impetus to start to reduce dependency on oil; something that could only be done gradually.
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I find it kind of amusing everyone's arguing market economics here, when the whole reason the reserve was released was because, with New Orleans gone, much of the South will shortly be without gas. Argue the market all you want. You're entirely missing the point. The fact remains that New Orleans being underwater, and with it the main point of entry for fuels into that section of the United States, is not an occurance that has anything to do with the market, and the actions to combat it have nothing to do with the market either.
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I was trying to say that but it's been proven how ineloquent I am =)
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A second White House source says there are no plans for the president to address the country on gas.
'Hi there guys! Wheeee! Y'Know, I haven't felt this high since my army days....why do you keep poking me Colin?....'
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Prices here keep going up. Now upto $1.15 or $1.30 in some places per liter. I remember when gas prices were $0.40 and $0.60.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Prices here keep going up. Now upto $1.15 or $1.30 in some places per liter. I remember when gas prices were $0.40 and $0.60.
What the Christ, that's almost, but not nearly, as expensive as in this socialistic Fennoscandian social experiment called Finland. Our gasoline prize jumped to 1,30e/l and has now gotten "back" to 1,26e/l.
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Huh?
Isn't it running at like $6.00 in Holland and a few other Scandinavian countries? That's what I read in the paper a while ago.
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Originally posted by Janos
What the Christ, that's almost, but not nearly, as expensive as in this socialistic Fennoscandian social experiment called Finland. Our gasoline prize jumped to 1,30e/l and has now gotten "back" to 1,26e/l.
Yeah...we used to have it good. Not nearly as good as the Americans but still pretty good.
Its downhill all the way. I can see us adopting alternative fuel options before they do. Seems to be the way of things. Us northern nations are a little more practical :)
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Tapping the SPR is going to do jack ****ing **** because IT'S CRUDE OIL -- it has to be refined - the problem isn't crude supplies, it's REFINED because 8 refiners are down
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Originally posted by Kazan
Tapping the SPR is going to do jack ****ing **** because IT'S CRUDE OIL -- it has to be refined - the problem isn't crude supplies, it's REFINED because 8 refiners are down
While you're right about the refineries out of commission, there were also a lot of Gulf oil rigs either temporarily or permanently knocked out because of Katrina. From what I've heard, even without the New Orleans area, there are some refineries in other parts of the country that aren't operating at full capacity right now. If that is the case, then I think using the SPR is a good decision. After all, it's intended to be used in times of emergency. Like anything else, if you keep putting off using it, thinking that there will be a worse emergency in the future, you'll never end up using it. I don't think we should drain the thing dry, but releasing some of it may help the rest of the refineries stay at full capacity.
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Agreeing with Kazan here. The problem isn't the supply of crude oil, but refining. (in fact most oil supply problems in the US are due to this)
Different state standards on fuel, etc. means that any disruption in refining is going to hurt.
The fact that the administration seems to think that they can solve the problem by injecting more crude into the market as opposed to announcing that the Army Corps of Engineers are building new refineries to solve the South's demand shows a lack of situational awareness. (common with all politicians in my experience in meeting with some)
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You know, the release of reserves is (and traditionally has been) done as a loan to producers, not a gift or grant. In other words, it suppliments the supply in the real shortages, but in times of relative plenty the reserves are refilled by those that took from them in the first place. Though Kazan and Ace are correct, the larger problem is the refining capacity, not the oil supply.
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Originally posted by Kazan
Tapping the SPR is going to do jack ****ing **** because IT'S CRUDE OIL -- it has to be refined - the problem isn't crude supplies, it's REFINED because 8 refiners are down
And the port of New Orleans serves something like 12. Next BS, please.
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um ngtm1r.. are you stupid or misinformed... 8 refineries are down in that region due to power outages and damage - the supply of CRUDE is fine - they've had MANAGERS FROM THE REFINERIES AND OIL RIGS on goddamn NPR talking about this.
inform yourself before you tell someone else is full of bull****.
[i'm on a kick about being pissy with arrogant ignorami this week]
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Since when do you trust the energy industry?
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In any case, it would be good if this serves as impetus to start to reduce dependency on oil; something that could only be done gradually.
It should have been done a long time ago, the US is the only rich country in the world to have its average fuel efficiency go DOWN. You can thank the glut of SUV buying for that.
I was reading that about 95% of the oil rigs in the Gulf are either down or completely destroyed. Those things take a long time to build, and the Gulf was an important source of oil.
Lowering the gas tax will do pretty much nothing for gas prices. The gas tax is only about $.05 or $.06 per gallon. It won't make a difference.
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Originally posted by Kosh
It should have been done a long time ago, the US is the only rich country in the world to have its average fuel efficiency go DOWN. You can thank the glut of SUV buying for that.
I did said impetus. Unfortunately Corporate America and the American Wallet needs things like these to make them do things like reducing dependency on oil.
Not disagreeing, but just observing.
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Hopefully, this crisis'll give certain leaders a ****ing reality check and remember that Oil, Coal, and most other Fossil Fuels are quite, quite limited, and as such it might just be a good damn idea to shift to another, more efficient Fuel Source. It can be done, and rather quickly at that, for example; just recently, I heard of plans that the entirety of New South Wales (...yay!) could be made to be run completely on Wind Power in just over 5 Years, which is just unreal! Although the plan might not go through, as many (very Ignorant) people ***** about the Sound said Windmills make, and Bird Watchers/Researchers/Lovers complain that Birds are killed by these Windmills regulary...other than those *****ing little wieners, it's a really great plan, so why can't the US do it? Because the Oil & Coal type companies are up there with the Cigarette companies in ruling the world and making sure the planet, and humanity, gets ****ed up so they can make a quick buck...:hopping:
On a side note; anyone think that this whole damn crisis is going to be used as a scape-goat to haul ass outta Iraq and scimp on the bill over there...? :nervous:
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redmenace the average joe in the oil company isn't the PR person or board of directors
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the average manager isn't exactly going to be unbiased and are going to be worried about keeping their job. So they will put the rosiest face on the situation from the position of the oil companies.
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Originally posted by Mefustae
Hopefully, this crisis'll give certain leaders a ****ing reality check and remember that Oil, Coal, and most other Fossil Fuels are quite, quite limited, and as such it might just be a good damn idea to shift to another, more efficient Fuel Source. It can be done, and rather quickly at that, for example; just recently, I heard of plans that the entirety of New South Wales (...yay!) could be made to be run completely on Wind Power in just over 5 Years, which is just unreal! Although the plan might not go through, as many (very Ignorant) people ***** about the Sound said Windmills make, and Bird Watchers/Researchers/Lovers complain that Birds are killed by these Windmills regulary...other than those *****ing little wieners, it's a really great plan, so why can't the US do it? Because the Oil & Coal type companies are up there with the Cigarette companies in ruling the world and making sure the planet, and humanity, gets ****ed up so they can make a quick buck...:hopping:
On a side note; anyone think that this whole damn crisis is going to be used as a scape-goat to haul ass outta Iraq and scimp on the bill over there...? :nervous:
The bird guys had a point. But its an outdated one. The older wind power generators were spinning very small blades very fast and birds were getting whacked. The new ones move much slower but are more efficient and larger. So the birds aren't being killed as often. The new ones are about as dangerous as windows on a house.
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Originally posted by Rictor
Here's something to chew on.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050829/wl_afp/usweathervenezuelaoil_050829235602
Venezuela, a constant target for US attacks, is offering oil to the US to make up for the Gulf of Mexico fields that have been hit by Katrina. That dastardly Chavez, does his evil know no bounds!
How much is he charging?