Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: ZmaN on September 06, 2005, 08:14:46 pm
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Well, since my video card blew and all, I was thinking about a new computer in about 1 month or 2. so heres what I need. This time I have the community to help me with my second build.... I need to know the following:
What Are?
Good motherboard brands
best type of (SATA) hard drive
what cases you guys prefer
Good budget sound card (between 30-50 bucks)
The Processors you guys prefer (I'm lookin at AMD Athlon 64 3500+ and 3700+, Socket 939)
Best DVD Burner brands
What video cards u people use (juss out of curiosity... I'm gettin my good old X800GT!!! :))
A Good sized power supply
and anything else I may or should consider looking into...
Thanks sooo much for helpin me, ZmaN
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As someone on this board said "Asus boards are practically bulletproof." Seriously, Asus mobos are extremely stable you'd have to try to break it.
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Motherboard Brand: MSI
SATA drive: I've been doing good with a 250GB Hitachi
Case: Antec, or Lian-li if you have the money
Budget Sound Card: Try finding an old Audigy or something. If you're running Windows and you have no plans of running Linux ever, the Audigy 2 Value is quite nice.
Processor: A64 3500+ (specifically the Venice core [revison E]) is nice, though you may want to look into the A64 X2 3800+ for future proofing)
DVD Burner: I've had good experiences with Lite-On
Video Card: MSI NX6800GT-TD256 (nVidia 6800GT, 256MB RAM, AGP 8x)
PSU: My Antec Truepower 430w is holding up nicely, though the Antec NeoPower 480w is really quite nice
Cooling: If you don't care about the warranty on your CPU (it's only valid with the stock cooling), then go for either a Thermalright or a Zalman. Also want to have at least 3 80mm fans or 2 120mm fans.
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ATI Radeon 9700Pro...serves me well. Waiting to see what the next gen of ATI cards is in a month or two.
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From the early indications, they don't seem to be that great. They're going for the limited run at high speeds over higher yields with better tech.
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf
From the early indications, they don't seem to be that great. They're going for the limited run at high speeds over higher yields with better tech.
I wasn't aware that much info had been released. I'm sort of waiting to see what happens.
I'd really like to see ATI square up with nVidia again. The 7X00 series has been a real kick in the pants and the 6X00 series was dead even if not a shade better.
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Originally posted by ZmaN
Good motherboard brands
best type of (SATA) hard drive
what cases you guys prefer
Good budget sound card (between 30-50 bucks)
The Processors you guys prefer (I'm lookin at AMD Athlon 64 3500+ and 3700+, Socket 939)
Best DVD Burner brands
What video cards u people use (juss out of curiosity... I'm gettin my good old X800GT!!! :))
A Good sized power supply
and anything else I may or should consider looking into...
Well, what I have, which has worked well for a year or so, more or less:
MSI K8MM-ILSR (As it was the only mATX board for AMD64
250 GB Western Digital works
I've heard good things about Lian Li; but I like my SimpleMax 101.
Audigy 2 NX; 24-bit/96khz sound (although Linux doesn't really support it), and you don't have problems with noise from stuff inside the case. Still runs about $100 though.
AMD64 3000+ 754-pin, but get 939-pin
Never heard of anyone getting a DVD burner working that I know. I don't think anyone's tried the HP Lightscribe
GeForce 6600 GT
Mmm, I love my Athena AP-MP4ATX45 PSU.
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My new comp: (I will have it in about 2 weeks)
4400+ AMD X2 @ 2.2GHz 2mb cache
2048 MB RAM
DFI board
XFX 7800 GT (450 mhz)
I cant wait, ive been saving for it for so long. Its gonna kick so much ass.
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Good motherboard brands
best type of (SATA) hard drive
what cases you guys prefer
Good budget sound card (between 30-50 bucks)
The Processors you guys prefer (I'm lookin at AMD Athlon 64 3500+ and 3700+, Socket 939)
Best DVD Burner brands
What video cards u people use (juss out of curiosity... I'm gettin my good old X800GT!!! )
A Good sized power supply
and anything else I may or should consider looking into... :)
In the order you listed...
I've always used Asus boards (A7M266, then A7N8X and now A8V deluxe), but they happened to be the optimal ones when I was buying; they are generally stable and reliable, but expensive and only average overclockers. I would say get a DFI board for maximum OC performance or an Epox board for great performance for a cheap price.
Maxtor DiamondMax 10 300GB. Performance is fairly close to a Raptor and has much higher capacity/price ratio.
I like the Cooler Master Centurion 5 (what I have) and Stacker cases. Great cases overall especially for the prices, aside from CM's embarrassing engrish on the boxes. Cases are really a subjective thing though. Just get whatever looks good to you and has at least one 120mm fan port.
Audigy 2 value OEM. I have one - it was $47 back in February - and it has all of the features of the more expensive models except for the extra stuff (firewire, remote control, external header box). Only the OEM ones have an internal pin header for front ports on them.
I would say get a Venice 3200 or X2 3800 and overclock it. The 3700 is kind of right between them, but the 3200 overclocks just as well and the extra cache on the 3700 isn't really worth the additional $100 or so in most cases. The 3000 is about as good too, but the 9 multiplier may in some cases slightly limit you.
The BenQ DW1640 seems to be the top one at the moment. I have the older 1620 model and it works great, both as a reader and a writer.
I have a BFG 6800GT. It has a pathetic custom heatsink, but overclocks well nonetheless. Fantastic in older games, but limited to 1280x960 without AA in most newer ones. I guess it has after all been over a year since I got it. I want something better to drive this monitor, but I don't think it's worth upgrading just yet since that would mean also mean a motherboard change just for PCIE and I won't have a lot of time for heavy gaming until the winter anyway.
I have a OCZ Modstream 520W and it's excellent. The OCZ Powerstream 520W has come down in price though and may be a slightly better buy overall. Enermax also makes great PSUs that have beefy 12V rails too; last I checked, there was a 465W one on Newegg that looked very good for its price.
As for the poll, nvidia for the reasons I gave in your other thread. Only a slight preference though.
From the early indications, they don't seem to be that great. They're going for the limited run at high speeds over higher yields with better tech.
Check this out: http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2647&s=1
I wonder how much money those 10 fully enabled ones will fetch... :D
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While we're on the subject, can someone explain what exactly "dual core" is? Is it like having two CPUs as the same speed as the listed speed? (eg an AMD64 X2 3500 would be like having a dual-processor AMD64 3500)
Also, is it a good idea to invest to pay more for dual-core processors, and what is the benefit over dual processor support?
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AFAIK, Dual Core is the next big marketing ploy more than anything else. The fundamental difference between dual core and dual processor is that there is better inter-processor communication in the instances where it's actually used, but I haven't seen any specs on how the cache size has been impacted by splitting the chip.
EDIT: actually, it's a rather good way of increasing production yield too. If one core has a defect, they just turn it off and ship the chip as a single core.
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I don't think that makes any difference. The performance is basically the same as two CPUs with that speed. Each core has its own cache (basically equal to the cache on the equivalent single core), although they both share the memory.
As for whether a dual core is worth it or not, I think it really depends on what you will use it for and how long you will be keeping it. Games right now don't benefit from them at all and probably won't for at least another year. If you tend to run a lot of programs at the same time though then they can make a big difference. Many people who have them say that Windows feels quicker and more responsive, although it's hard to say if that's really the case or they just have too much junk running in the background. Also, 3D rendering and mathematical computation programs can take full advantage of them, so if you use things like that a lot then they are basically a no brainer.
I personally wouldn't get one at this point though. Doesn't justify the price premium over an equivalent single core to me and I upgrade about once a year anyway.
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Dual Core = two Processor cores on a single package.
AMDs dual core processor ratings are not equivalent to single core. An X2 3800+ for instance, is essentially two single core venice 3200+s. The 4800+ is two San Diego 4000+s on one die.
Aside from the better communication (well, in AMD's case, Intel is still using the old FSB) the big difference is motherboard selection. Dual CPU mobo's are almost always server board, which just aren't set up for home use.
AMD dual cores each have thier own dedicated caches. How much depends on the exact model - some have 512kb per core, others have 1mb.
Last I checked, games that use dual cores are pretty far in between. Doom 3, iirc, is multithreaded, and FEAR is going to be. Don't know about the rest.
I'm fairly certain there are a number of multithreaded encoders around for the video people.
For the original Question:
DFI or MSI motherboards. DFI is top dog for nForce 4 overclocking. If you're not gonna overclock, go cheap.
I've got an NEC-3520 and I think it's grand. The 3540s are dirt cheap too now.
If you're going to overclock, either get the 3700+ or a 3000/3200+. The 3500+ is not a great deal.
My vid card is an AGP XFX 6800GT. Bought it partly because it was the best performer in my price range when I bought it, and partly because it's not made by ATi.
My PSU is an antec true 480. Hasn't given me any trouble. Hear good things about Seasonic and PC Power and Cooling too.
Sound Card....y'know, somehow I suspect getting a card that's really a signifigant improvement over on-board for $50 is gonna be tricky, though the Audigy 2 value above sounds like it might be.
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The only reason I bring up cache is because it is, by far, the largest element on a processor die. As large as the processor itself, if not larger. (The last two or three years have really only seen Moore's law go toward making them bigger.) So while duplicating the processor on-chip makes sense, I don't think doubling the area available for cache is necessarily a given and so the relative cache of each core will probably shrink when compared to a single-core processor made with the same technology.
For future-proofing though, it's probably a good idea to at least look at dual processors in some form or fashion. Sure, not many things now run multithreaded, but that's going to start changing fairly soon.
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Originally posted by IceFire
I wasn't aware that much info had been released. I'm sort of waiting to see what happens.
I'd really like to see ATI square up with nVidia again. The 7X00 series has been a real kick in the pants and the 6X00 series was dead even if not a shade better.
Originally posted by CP5670
Check this out: http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2647&s=1
I wonder how much money those 10 fully enabled ones will fetch... :D
Everything I've seen basically says the VR-Zone thing is wrong, or possibly just a bit too optimistic. Everything out there is saying this is basically going to be a very high frequency 16 pipeline part, as opposed to the earlier rumours of it being a 24 pipeline card. Possibly could have been lowered to 16 due to horrible yields, but I doubt it if it had 32 built in.
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Sound Card....y'know, somehow I suspect getting a card that's really a signifigant improvement over on-board for $50 is gonna be tricky, though the Audigy 2 value above sounds like it might be.
The card sounds ten times better the onboard ALC850 crap to me and has much lower CPU utilization, one of the best purchases I have made, but I think you need headphones or high end speakers to really tell the difference. The only problem I have with it is that the internal front port connector is designed for Dell cases and the pins are too short for the pin headers on a standard case. They normally just fall out, but I have taped them in place and it works fine.
Some of the NF4 motherboards have custom audio chips though, which are reportedly quite a bit better than the standard ALC850. The MSI one in particular has a very good one, although the board itself is apparently buggy and unreliable.
The only reason I bring up cache is because it is, by far, the largest element on a processor die. As large as the processor itself, if not larger. (The last two or three years have really only seen Moore's law go toward making them bigger.) So while duplicating the processor on-chip makes sense, I don't think doubling the area available for cache is necessarily a given and so the relative cache of each core will probably shrink when compared to a single-core processor made with the same technology.
The cache sizes have stayed the same, at the moment at least. I think the only CPU right now with a decreased cache (per core) over the comparable single core version is the Pentium EE 840, with 2x 1MB instead of 2MB, but it's a total ripoff anyway.
Everything I've seen basically says the VR-Zone thing is wrong, or possibly just a bit too optimistic. Everything out there is saying this is basically going to be a very high frequency 16 pipeline part, as opposed to the earlier rumours of it being a 24 pipeline card. Possibly could have been lowered to 16 due to horrible yields, but I doubt it if it had 32 built in.
That's what I have been hearing too actually, but these 10 chips may be from their original manufacturing runs. There have been reports of several retapes, so they may have just cut down on the design at some point.
By the way, I suppose you have heard all the talk of "extreme" pipes. What exactly does that mean? :wtf:
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Thanks guys. :) I've wondered, for a while, but the wikipedia and such are a bit vague about such things.
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One thing that impressed me to no end about the Gigabyte motherboard I have at work is that the integrated sound card ports were monitored by a sensor of some sort. Whenever you plug or unplug something, a dialog box would pop up showing all the audio ports, indicating which one you just plugged something into, and providing you with a pull-down menu where you could choose what you wanted that port to be: front L/R, rear L/R, sub+center, etc. Really nifty. :yes:
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Reminds me of something you didn't mention - RAM.
My friend has a dual-channel Gigabyte motherboard, and found that 1x512 chip and 2x256 sticks wouldn't work; he only saw 768 MB of memory, no matter what he did.
The solution was to switch the 512 for two more 256 MB sticks. Something you might want to keep in mind for expandability purposes.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Reminds me of something you didn't mention - RAM.
My friend has a dual-channel Gigabyte motherboard, and found that 1x512 chip and 2x256 sticks wouldn't work; he only saw 768 MB of memory, no matter what he did.
The solution was to switch the 512 for two more 256 MB sticks. Something you might want to keep in mind for expandability purposes.
best to use twin sticks of ram, and leave the other slot open (varies from board to board which slot you leave unoccupied)..
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I'm not sure if that's the case of dual channel capable P4s, but it certainly is on A64s. 4 sticks always requires slower 2T Ram timings, and on older A64s, bumps you down to DDR333 too.
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Originally posted by CP5670
By the way, I suppose you have heard all the talk of "extreme" pipes. What exactly does that mean? :wtf:
It's marketing speak. Ignore it.
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ignore the word "extreme" in any kind of form, it's marketing speak designed to draw people in.. look at the numbers, do your research, and make your judgement based on a broad view.
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Originally posted by CP5670
The card sounds ten times better the onboard ALC850 crap to me and has much lower CPU utilization, one of the best purchases I have made, but I think you need headphones or high end speakers to really tell the difference.
Yea i got some Logitech X-230's
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well.... Ive nly worked with Intel boards, and this crappy company called albatron..... suckiest company!!! anyway, I have little experience with specific brand names. I've used Biostar, Albatron, Intel, Asus, and MAYBE a few others, but I'm goin on memory right now. Im gunna go with what other people think is the best performence board for gaming, so start yellin it to me already!!!!
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
While we're on the subject, can someone explain what exactly "dual core" is? Is it like having two CPUs as the same speed as the listed speed? (eg an AMD64 X2 3500 would be like having a dual-processor AMD64 3500)
Also, is it a good idea to invest to pay more for dual-core processors, and what is the benefit over dual processor support?
The only benefit from dual copre is yes... what sumn1 else said it only provides speed when you run multiple programs at once, no affect on gaming..
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OKAY heres my spec sheet so far
Processor: AMD Athlon 3700+ Socket 939, San diego core
Hard Drives: Any good SATA II Drive
Sound Card: Either my old Sound Blaster Live!, or a New Audigy 2 Value card
RAM: 768 MB of DDR (from my old PC, Speed is PC-2700 casue of one lousy RAM Stick)
Video Card: My Powercolor Radeon X800GT
Cooling: I'll settle for stock until I get some extra cash
Not Sure yet:
Motherboard Brand
Power Supply Brand and wattage
DVD Burner brand
Case (for design and performance(e.g. cooling, space, wireing room, etc)
Okay so now recommend to me what is in the "Not Sure" list
Thanks so much, ZmaN
P.S. The Motherboard Chipset MUST BE A NVIDIA NFORCE 4 ULTRA!!! PLEASE REMEMBER THAT.
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San Diego is basically pointless. Winchester 3200+ if you want to overclock, and either the Winchester 3500+ or Manchester 3800+ if you don't.
Case: Don't go for silly looking cases. Go for a nice solid case with big fans. You'll be happier in the long run.
PSU: Antec is dependable, and I've heard fairly good things about Cooler Master and Fortron.
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lemme ask u guys suttin, I was looking into crossfire technology, but in order to have crossfire, I need to have a radeon xpress 200 chipset thats crossfire ready. 2 ?'s
1. Can I do crossfire without an Xpress chipset (as in just on a board with 2 pci-e x16 slots on it)
2. Whats a better chipset, Nvidia Nforce4 Ultra or the Ati Radeon Xpress 200P?
ALSO!!!
check this link Explanation of AMD Cores (http://www.techspot.com/vb/topic29369.html)
San Diego is Identical to Venice, the only difference is the cache, which is bigger so its better, and its the high end core for gamers...
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The extra 512kb of cache does basically nothing except cost more (this has been backed by benchmarks).
The nForce 4 is better, even though I prefer VIA myself.
Don't use Crossfire, as it's still an immature technology, even worse off than SLI. ATi basically panicked when nVidia came out with SLI, and Crossfire is their half-baked solution.
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WTF...
Which benchmarks? Which applications? What other equipment?
Not that it matters, since benchmarks don't actually mean anything anyway.
With slower RAM, that extra cache is VERY valuable.
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One thing that impressed me to no end about the Gigabyte motherboard I have at work is that the integrated sound card ports were monitored by a sensor of some sort. Whenever you plug or unplug something, a dialog box would pop up showing all the audio ports, indicating which one you just plugged something into, and providing you with a pull-down menu where you could choose what you wanted that port to be: front L/R, rear L/R, sub+center, etc. Really nifty.
I have that feature too on this A8V board. It's not very useful since the onboard sound sucks anyway.
My friend has a dual-channel Gigabyte motherboard, and found that 1x512 chip and 2x256 sticks wouldn't work; he only saw 768 MB of memory, no matter what he did.
The old nforce2 boards supported 3 sticks and they even worked perfectly in dual channel as long as both channels had the same amount of memory. But it seems that all the A64 boards only work with 1, 2 or 4 sticks.
ignore the word "extreme" in any kind of form, it's marketing speak designed to draw people in.. look at the numbers, do your research, and make your judgement based on a broad view.
That was my impression too. Every extreme product I have seen has been anything but. :D But a lot of people on hardware forums are throwing around "extreme pipes" like it's an official term and is somehow fundamentally different from normal pipes. :p
Which benchmarks? Which applications? What other equipment?
Not that it matters, since benchmarks don't actually mean anything anyway.
With slower RAM, that extra cache is VERY valuable.
The difference in price can be used to get a 1GB PC3200 memory pack though, which will be a much better buy.
I have seen basically one program, Mathematica, that gets major (15%) boosts with the extra cache, but the gains everything else are quite small on an A64.
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Originally posted by Grey Wolf
The extra 512kb of cache does basically nothing except cost more (this has been backed by benchmarks).
The nForce 4 is better, even though I prefer VIA myself.
Don't use Crossfire, as it's still an immature technology, even worse off than SLI. ATi basically panicked when nVidia came out with SLI, and Crossfire is their half-baked solution.
Yea right, like ill buy that, check this: Crossfire vs. SLI (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=14474&PageId=6)
Also, check the rest of that review, and you'll see PERFECTLY that Crossfire is WAYYYY better than SLI... SLI is gay!! You can also do a google search Crossfire Versus SLI and thats what ull get.
EDIT: ALSO!!! Check this out: Nvidia Vs. ATI, who'll be next? (http://hardware.earthweb.com/chips/print.php/3532016)
That explains why ATI is having trouble with the PC Market right now, DID ANYONE REMEMBER ABOUT THE XBOX 360???? according to that link above, ATI's chips are being used in Xbox 360's, PS3 is going to be using Geforce 7 Series chips....... Now do you get my picture, why ATI isnt a sucky company??
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And nobody answered my question: Can I use Crossfire without an Xpress 200 motherboard?
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Abit makes very good motherboards, that are designed to handel over-clocking of cpu. An Abit with an Athalon Processor, I think are a good mix for a seroius gamer.
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Originally posted by ZmaN
Yea right, like ill buy that, check this: Crossfire vs. SLI (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=14474&PageId=6)
Also, check the rest of that review, and you'll see PERFECTLY that Crossfire is WAYYYY better than SLI... SLI is gay!! You can also do a google search Crossfire Versus SLI and thats what ull get.
EDIT: ALSO!!! Check this out: Nvidia Vs. ATI, who'll be next? (http://hardware.earthweb.com/chips/print.php/3532016)
That explains why ATI is having trouble with the PC Market right now, DID ANYONE REMEMBER ABOUT THE XBOX 360???? according to that link above, ATI's chips are being used in Xbox 360's, PS3 is going to be using Geforce 7 Series chips....... Now do you get my picture, why ATI isnt a sucky company??
It's not performance. It's the very design. ATi, with their R4xx cores and the R5xx cores, requires a fairly rare card to successfully pull off Crossfire. Specifically, a Master Card, with a normal card functioning as a Slave. If you can find a Master Card, more power to you. Good luck with that though.
As for the Xbox360 and the PS3, I honestly don't care about consoles that much, as they're not very good measures of the actual power of the parts.
Finally, I never accused ATi of being a "sucky company". What I did claim to be was decently informed on the current status of the computer industry. Hell, my major in college is the manufacturing of microchips. I hope you appreciate the hazardous chemicals manufacturing your processor involves, including hydroflouric acid. Also, use proper grammar. Typing in all capital letters weakens your point, and destroys any point you might have had.
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X360 ISN'T affecting ATi in any way other then paying them royalities. MS bought the design, and are producing it. ATi isn't responsible for actually making the ATi processors.
While there is speculation that ATi may at some point enable crossfire on nForce 4 boards, as it stands it's gonna require an ATi mobo.
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Speaking of ATI, here are some more R520 pictures and info:
http://www.techpowerup.com/index.php?5127
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How trustworthy is that site? there's plenty of rumours going around.
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Who knows? But it has the first actual R520 pictures that I know of.
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Originally posted by phatosealpha
X360 ISN'T affecting ATi in any way other then paying them royalities. MS bought the design, and are producing it. ATi isn't responsible for actually making the ATi processors.
While there is speculation that ATi may at some point enable crossfire on nForce 4 boards, as it stands it's gonna require an ATi mobo.
ok, i figured that...
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How much is the R520 going to start for? I may jjust wait for that to come out, and get that, but then again, its probably going to be in the 7800 gt range, so i probably cant afford it.
oh, and well, after doing some research for dual core processors, people are starting to review them, and recommending that we get them. considering the AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103562) has dropped to about $375, I am considering gettin one, the gaming performence is as good as a Regular Single Core 3800+, but it works better under more circumstances, (e.g. running windows with many applications open, or doing anti spyware and antivirus scans while playing games), it might be worht the extra money. Whats your opinions??
Here is the review I read for the X2 3800+: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+, Let the Upgrades Begin! (http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q3/athlon64-x2-3800/index.x?pg=1)
P.S. Notice that on games, the X2 3800+ does a LITTLE worse than the Single core 3800+, but in everything else, it whoops its butt!
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Originally posted by ZmaN
SLI is gay!!
I just love these technical arguements. So full of relevant, useful information. Who'd have thought video cards could have predilictions towards the same sex? Who'd have imagined they even had sexes? I'm certainly going to listen a lot closer to the contented hum my videocard makes when I insert it (wahey!) into the motherboard.
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SLI > Crossfire, for the simple fact that you can buy an SLI setup right now and Crossfire Master cards are still nowhere to be seen. Also, you see Crossfire outperforming SLI in benchmarks because the X850XTPE is simply a faster card than the 6800 Ultra, not because Crossfire itself is somehow better.
How much is the R520 going to start for? I may jjust wait for that to come out, and get that, but then again, its probably going to be in the 7800 gt range, so i probably cant afford it.
At this point, I don't have much hope for the top end R520 XT. Even it's officially released soon, it's probably going to be in short supply for a long time so prices will be sky high, and I doubt it will be all that much faster than a 7800 GTX, especially given that the GTX has a lot of clockspeed headroom and several companies have released signficantly overclocked 490/1300mhz versions. The lesser R520 cards may be more interesting though.
P.S. Notice that on games, the X2 3800+ does a LITTLE worse than the Single core 3800+, but in everything else, it whoops its butt!
That's because the X2 manchester 3800 is clocked a good 400mhz lower than the normal venice 3800. There is hardly any difference in games beyond 2200mhz on an A64 though, as long as you play at a decent resolution. If you are going to run stuff in the background while playing games, the X2 will be much better.
I just love these technical arguements. So full of relevant, useful information. Who'd have thought video cards could have predilictions towards the same sex? Who'd have imagined they even had sexes? I'm certainly going to listen a lot closer to the contented hum my videocard makes when I insert it (wahey!) into the motherboard.
I go to the Anandtech video forum pretty regularly for reading exactly stuff like that. :D Apart from the usual nvidia and ATI diehard supporters, there are also PCI express fanboys and CRT and LCD fanboys. There is a even thread there with two old timers arguing about image quality differences with AF on four year old video cards. It's been going on for like two weeks.
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wait, isnt the core in the dual core athlon X2 3800+ the same as the single core 3800+? if yes, cant it be overclocked to about 2.2 ghz, instead of 2.0 ghz, with stock cooling?
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and I wrote this baby up on another forum in reference to ATI Versus Nvidia, both SLI/Crossfire and Non SLI/Crossfire
I actually read a review that sum1 posted on the HLP forums and the RAdeon 9800XT (No, not the X800, the 9800XT) was BEATING the Geforce 6800 GT!!! its pretty amazing, of course at this point, the drivers are better, so they are probably the same going speed right now.
As for Nvidia getting better speeds by linking two cards together, yea thats how they got away with it, and well if you'll notice, SLI is not that great of a contender. Considering that you need TWO IDENTICAL CARDS (Im emphasizing here, not exclaiming), with TWO IDENTICAL BIOSES, and the cards CANNOT be MIXED AND MATCHED, they must be the SAME EXACT CARD from the SAME MANUFACTURER. Crossfire screwed that and now any card thats an X800/X850 Series works with crossfire, regardless of manufacturer.... Crossfire is also better than SLI, considering it works with ALL games, SLI Doesnt support all games. It costs about 800 bucks, to build a pretty killer gaming machine with a 6800 (and I dont like Nvidia) for 800 bucks.... NOW, lets look deeper. TO BUY (and yes this is how Nvidia is where its at right now in the market) TWO, not one but TWO Geforce 7800GT's would cost you, 800 bucks, buying from Newegg JUST FOR VIDEO CARDS. Now lets see, two Geforce 7800GTX's would cost you 1,000 dollars for SLI, again JUST FOR VIDEO CARDS. COULD YOU IMAGINE spending that much money on just TWO video cards? I cant... thats pretty insane. I mean at its cheapest, ATI can crossfire you for about 300 to 400 dollars, (two X800GT's, or an X800GT and an X800 Pro). If you ask me, for the performance-to-dollar ratio your getting, i dont think that SLI is well worth it. Heres some crossfire versus SLI reviews
Link: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=14474
SO read that and tell me what u think!
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No, the 3800 is 2Ghz at stock, like the 3200. As for overclocking, all the single core revision E processors apart from the FXs generally top out at about the same level, in the 2.7-2.8Ghz range, and the stock cooler can get you pretty far unless you need to increase the voltage significantly. The X2s can generally go up to 2.4-2.6Ghz, but you may need something better than the stock cooler since they run quite a bit hotter than the single cores.
The information you're getting on SLI and Crossfire is either outdated or simply wrong. You don't need the exact same card or BIOS anymore in the 80 series drivers for SLI. Crossfire allows you to use two slightly different cards, but it just downclocks the faster card to match the speed of the slower one, so what's the point? ATI claims better game compatibility with Crossfire, but of course they would say that. Nobody knows if it's actually true at this point.
As for the price, of course SLI is wildly expensive and not worth it for most people (I personally would never buy it given that there are still compatibility issues), but your comparison is ridiculous. The most expensive SLI setup possible versus the cheapest Crossfire setup? The dual GTX setup is obviously more expensive because it's like three times as fast. Two X800 GTs (one a master card) will probably cost the same as a single X850XTPE or 7800 GT, which will both likely outperform them if the two 6600 GTs / one 6800 GT comparisons are anything to go by.
Crossfire's biggest problem at the moment is that it doesn't exist in the market. You simply cannot buy a Master card of any kind right now. Even when these do finally come out, they're going to price gouged by vendors because the only people buying them will be Crossfire users who the vendors know are willing to spend the extra money.
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sorry, i admit that was a bad comparison..... I was trying to show that Nvidias Cheapest SLi Soulution is a Little more xpensive than ATI's Crossfire solution.
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No. SLI has the advantage because it actually exists on the market. They are both virtually useless however. The latency between the cards is too high for any proper benefit, and most of the cards they use it on are overkill anyway. Just get a single card, and when it's too slow to do what you want to do, replace it. Notice I say "what you want to do", as opposed to "cannot run the newest games". Only buy what you will actually use.
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Whatever you do, don't copy this guy (http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTEyNjExMzE1M25saG1RZG1RZW9fMV8xX2wuanBn)
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Some people are too stupid to own a computer.
Others are merely too stupid to own a good graphics card.
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I've seen that posted like 20 times in various places. :p It's almost certainly a fake though; check the JPG image information.
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wait, *feels completly retarted*, what exactly did he do. What 'lines' did he cut?
And nobody is answering my question of dual core processors. Should I get the dual core X2 3800+ for 50 bucks more then the single core 3800+, or should I stick with the 3800+ Single Core?
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He sliced off half the PCI Express connector.
As for processors, the X2 will be more future-proof, so go for that.
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Originally posted by ZmaN
wait, *feels completly retarted*, what exactly did he do. What 'lines' did he cut?
And nobody is answering my question of dual core processors. Should I get the dual core X2 3800+ for 50 bucks more then the single core 3800+, or should I stick with the 3800+ Single Core?
Well, I just basically asked that a page back, it's really your decision.
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I say if ur gona go X2 get at least the 4400+ because its the same as 2 3800+s. If you get the X2 3800+ you are essentially getting 2 3200+s and single thread performace might not be what you want it to be although its still not bad.
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They should overclock about the same though as long as you have decent cooling.
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Originally posted by MatthewPapa
I say if ur gona go X2 get at least the 4400+ because its the same as 2 3800+s. If you get the X2 3800+ you are essentially getting 2 3200+s and single thread performace might not be what you want it to be although its still not bad.
Cost may be a fairly important factor, in which case he may want to go for the 3800+.
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HEY HEY HEY!! I chose the 3800 cause I cant afford a 580 dollar X2 4400+... Yes precisly why i chose the X2 3800+ dual core instead for a mere 375 dollars.... See the review at the bottom, and yes... if you overclock a Dual Core X2 3800+ to 2.4 ghz from 2.0 ghz, you can actually get performance equal to the FX-55/57 Single Core. It performs better than the X2 4200+ when overclocked, and almost as good as the X2 4800+ when overclocked, but its like what CP5670 said, get decent cooling and you can overclock it to that level...
As for the pic, I see what he did (cut the ending conector off of the PCI-E connector, but how is this verified as fake? I checked the JPEG Picture Information but I dont see anything saying or indicating its fake... As for gray wolfs post above this, exactly why I am going for the 3800+ X2...
AMD X2 3800+ Processor Overclock Benchmarks (http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q3/athlon64-x2-3800/index.x?pg=14)
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one more question. I went to AMD's Site outta curiosity, and well it list 2 separate models under the Athlon 64 X2 3800+
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Comparison (http://www.amdcompare.com/us-en/desktop/SideBySide.aspx?opn=ADA3800DKA5BV&opn=ADA3800DAA5CD)
What is the stepping?
The specs of both processors are exactly the same, so which one is the right one?
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I'm not entirely sure. I am hearing different things about the single core and dual core E6s. The single core E6s apparently use some different material to comply with European regulations and have some really minor memory controller improvements, but people on xtremesystems have been reporting lower overclocks with them, so I would avoid them for now and go with an E3 or E4. The dual core E6s on the other hand are the 1024k cache Toledo cores, so if you find an X2 3800 that's an E6 then it's probably a 4400 with half the cache disabled and speed binned to a 3800. Not sure how it might affect overclocking, if at all, although it seems the E6 3800s are rare anyway.
Maybe it's not the exact same picture. This has circulated and been copied around the internet many times now. The one in the original post said "Adobe Photoshop CS2" or something like that in it. Besides, let's face it, you're going to have to apply some serious force to break it off that cleanly. Would require a chainsaw or something. :p
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I'd say a hacksaw would be able to do it.
Also, my honest suggestion: Don't overclock. The only rational reason to overclock is when a part starts reaching the end of its usable life expectancy, to pull off an extra game or two before obsolescence. Overclocking at the beginning is usually rather pointless.
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I don't know much about CPU overclocks since mine sucks (2ghz rev D engineering sample that tops out around 2.2ghz), but a video card overclock can make a considerable difference. You won't see it quite as much in benchmarks, which almost always just show the average framerates (a useless stat IMO), but the minimum framerates can get a better boost. I can effectively go up one resolution setting in some current games because of a 6800 GT overclock.
It's free performance and a significant amount of it, so the only real reason not to overclock is if you don't have time to do all the research and run the stability tests. If you are well informed about everything in advance and are careful and systematic, there is very little chance of any problems.
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Most people who try overclocking do not do the research properly. Then they'll come back on and start going like this:
OMG MY COMPUTER IS DYING!!1! I OVERCLOCKED IT FROM 1.8GHZ TO 3.4GHZ AND NOW IT WON"T BOOT! I THINK ITS ON FIRE TOO!!!!!!
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so wait, e4 or e6?
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Doesn't matter. You probably won't know until you get it and look at the chip, as most sites let you choose the core, but they won't let you choose the stepping.
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prices have spiked this week
dont buy now
wait until the prices fall back down