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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grey Wolf on September 11, 2005, 04:33:55 pm

Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Grey Wolf on September 11, 2005, 04:33:55 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4235278.stm
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: aldo_14 on September 11, 2005, 04:41:14 pm
Aye.  Shower of ****e.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: karajorma on September 11, 2005, 04:48:10 pm
Every F**king year. :rolleyes:
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Rictor on September 11, 2005, 04:50:04 pm
Oi lads, let's 'ave at it!
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 11, 2005, 04:51:33 pm
That's what happens when you try and tell people they can't walk down a street in a free country.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: karajorma on September 11, 2005, 05:02:20 pm
Problem is that the police keep breaking things up. I say that every year we simply let everyone into a big arena and natural selection the stupid out of NI but letting them fight for as long as they wish.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Martinus on September 11, 2005, 05:21:03 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Problem is that the police keep breaking things up. I say that every year we simply let everyone into a big arena and natural selection the stupid out of NI but letting them fight for as long as they wish.

[color=66ff00]It doesn't work that way, the people that are doing this are fundamentally cowards, they attack from behind a crowd and use uneducated youths to do their dirty work.

They get them to shine lasers at the police and army to instill fear of snipers, they're told to attack homes on opposite sides of the community as reprisal.

If you placed these people in an arena they'd not do anything to each other. Terrorism doesn't work that way.
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Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: aldo_14 on September 11, 2005, 05:27:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
That's what happens when you try and tell people they can't walk down a street in a free country.


I presume you'd feel the same about a BNP march through Sighthill, then?
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 11, 2005, 05:47:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


I presume you'd feel the same about a BNP march through Sighthill, then?


Yes I would. And the same if a human rights or other liberal group wanted to march past the BNP offices.

Democracy works both ways.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: aldo_14 on September 11, 2005, 05:47:48 pm
Interesting.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 11, 2005, 05:58:37 pm
I assume you wouldn't be happy with such a situation?
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: aldo_14 on September 11, 2005, 06:09:18 pm
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for civil liberties & free speech, but I don't see an inherent benefit in behaviour calculated simply for the purpose of causing offence.  If there's some valid message, sure, but not when it's simply racism or bigotry.

Because if the OO didn't simply want to piss off (or worse) the Catholics, they wouldn't riot when asked to take a different route.  And soforth.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Col. Fishguts on September 11, 2005, 06:22:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
... let everyone into a big arena and natural selection the stupid out of NI but letting them fight for as long as they wish.


That sounds almost exactly like my Plan™ for the Israel/Palestine conflict.... which will come into action as soon as I'm supreme overloard of the planet.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Mongoose on September 11, 2005, 06:51:56 pm
As an outsider, I have to ask those of you more knowledgable about the situation:  are riots like these even remotely about religious issues anymore?  Or do they happen pretty much because both sides have been at odds for so long?
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Martinus on September 11, 2005, 06:52:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for civil liberties & free speech, but I don't see an inherent benefit in behaviour calculated simply for the purpose of causing offence.  If there's some valid message, sure, but not when it's simply racism or bigotry.

Because if the OO didn't simply want to piss off (or worse) the Catholics, they wouldn't riot when asked to take a different route.  And soforth.

[color=66ff00]:yes:

Marching down a street grasping a hand-grenade above your head has nothing to do with free speech, neither does endorsing riotious behaviour and shutting down power stations and public amenities.

I'd also like to point out that some OO marches are pretty peaceable and cause no offence, they're just seen as a bit of a community event. In my town in the 80's the catholic churches invited the protestant community to take part in the Saint Patricks day parade (which moves around nationalist areas). Pressure from the hardliners in the protestant community quashed the effort.
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Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Martinus on September 11, 2005, 06:53:10 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
As an outsider, I have to ask those of you more knowledgable about the situation:  are riots like these even remotely about religious issues anymore?  Or do they happen pretty much because both sides have been at odds for so long?

[color=66ff00]There's no religious issue at all, it's pure, in-bred hate and fear.
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Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Rand al Thor on September 12, 2005, 07:38:01 am
Democracy has nothing to do with it, unless you're looking at from the point of protecting civil liberties and equal rights.

The Orange order is an organisation setup specifically for one reason; to subjugate Catholics and block them from gaining power. Plain and simple. Catholics in the N.Ireland don't try and march through loyalist areas to celebrate 1916, 1921 or 1949 (although those dates had alot less effect for them than the Republic).

I've no problem with them marching, IF they march through an area that will appreciate it and can cheer them on or whatever it is they do. But why don't they? Because THIS is what the OO is for.

Thing I can't understand is that there seemed to be no inflamation from the Republican or Catholic sides, and still this chaos happens. I guess there's still alot of unhappy people up there.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 12, 2005, 07:48:17 am
That's it, I'm going back to my tank philosophy for Ireland...
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Rand al Thor on September 12, 2005, 07:59:16 am
Eh?
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 12, 2005, 08:00:40 am
We send every tank division we have and roll over everything. Then turn it into the world's biggest beer garden. Or possibly a new Rangers training camp, just to make a point.

:p
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Grey Wolf on September 12, 2005, 09:08:21 am
So... Why would you roll over the Republic of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland? Last time I checked they didn't have quite as many problems.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Grey Wolf on September 12, 2005, 09:12:43 am
Quote
"As far as I'm concerned the people to blame for that are the secretary of state, the chief constable and the Parades Commission, fairly and squarely." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4236208.stm)

Sure. It's not the rioters' fault, it's the police and government :doubt:
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Martinus on September 12, 2005, 09:53:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
We send every tank division we have and roll over everything. Then turn it into the world's biggest beer garden. Or possibly a new Rangers training camp, just to make a point.

:p

[color=66ff00]Given the sectarian following of Celtic/Rangers that might not go down so well.

What point?
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Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Roanoke on September 12, 2005, 11:31:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
As an outsider, I have to ask those of you more knowledgable about the situation:  are riots like these even remotely about religious issues anymore?  Or do they happen pretty much because both sides have been at odds for so long?



It dates back to a battle sometime in the 14th century IIRC. That's how ridiculous it is
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Rand al Thor on September 12, 2005, 11:43:30 am
Well, yeah, they still trumpet that alot. Ol' Willie Orange. Funny that seeing as he wasn't even British. Which I think makes it a religious thing more than anything.

But it is essentially the fact that James was Catholic, fled to Ireland after trying for the British throne, rallied a rag tag army which was scuppered by the professional British one. And all the Planters (i.e. forced English settlers in mainly Ulster) latched on to it. But in fairness it was really only resurected in 1910->14ish(?) when Home Rule for the entire island of Ireland was being considered by the British Parliament.

Correct me if I'm wrong; its been a while since I actually studied any of that.

I take it Vyper, that you see things from the other side?
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Rand al Thor on September 12, 2005, 11:45:44 am
Oh and sorry, not trying to drive a point home, I forgot, but it was ressurected by the newly reinvigorated Orange Order.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 12, 2005, 12:22:44 pm
That in a heartbeat the British could settle it once and for all, and it's only our good grace that's stopped us from turning Northen Ireland into a wasteland for the past 60 years. Both sides are equally bad, and both sides need a spanking from the nanny.

[q]
Given the sectarian following of Celtic/Rangers that might not go down so well.[/q]

That's part of the psy-ops warfare. ;)
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 12, 2005, 12:25:36 pm
[q]
I take it Vyper, that you see things from the other side?[/q]

I see things from the British mainland side. I don't care whose cause you're fighting for - the IRA blew up British civilians many times, and the loyalists blew each other / the republicans up (and thus British civilians) too.

You don't get to do that.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Martinus on September 12, 2005, 06:48:03 pm
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]
I take it Vyper, that you see things from the other side?[/q]

I see things from the British mainland side. I don't care whose cause you're fighting for - the IRA blew up British civilians many times, and the loyalists blew each other / the republicans up (and thus British civilians) too.

You don't get to do that.

[color=66ff00]I guess you're right.

I'll call all of my catholic friends and have them accept responsibility for the actions of a few people, you can plot the destruction of their homes soon after that.

Of course I'm pretty sure that sometime after they'll be expecting you to take responsibility for all of the horrific things that British people have done over here and Britan can be raised to the ground.

No room for leeway in extremeism afterall.
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Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Rand al Thor on September 12, 2005, 09:13:35 pm
Fair enough. You see things from the British side, I see things from the Republic side. Obviously I don't support republican violence; that, like unionist paramilitaries, is only going to keep the two communities at each others throats for generations. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anyone here from N.I. to say whether we're close so all we've got are opinions.

Obviously you feel an afilliation with fellow British citizens but how can you, at least in this instance, take the side of people who are attacking your own defense forces? People who have threatened in the past to take up arms against the British nation if the majority will of their nation (i.e. N.I.) is followed (and I freely admit its not the majority yet) for independence or reunification? And who currently seem to be doing so?

Lets face it; the creation of the country itself is an aboration. In 1923/4 county boundries for Down and Fermanagh were changed before the hand over to the free state to exclude catholic area's, thus making them Protestant majorities and a part of the new country. It shouldn't even exist!

And while I'll never agree with terrorism targetting civilian targets, it can be argued that without the horrific 70's campaign there wouldn't have been nearly so much effort put into forging the current peace process. Probably alot less barriers to demolish now because of it though.

Basically, from what I see there just seems to be an attitude or desire form a definate portion of the Protestant community that they want things to stay as they are, or as they were a few decades ago when they were an undisputed superior class, no matter that it made Catholics very much second class citizens.

But in fairness Vyper; if it's really you view to just roll in the tank divisions as a solution then I can't expect you to even consider any of that.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: karajorma on September 13, 2005, 02:57:59 am
I think you've missed Vyper's point Rand. He was going for a solution tantamount to to flattening both sides and writing "Too Stupid To Live" in words that could be seen from space.

Excessive yes but at least its equally unfair to both sides :p
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Rand al Thor on September 13, 2005, 05:41:59 am
Yeah that could well be the case. I tend to get focused on my own desire to rant on the issue.
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2005, 05:52:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by Rand al'Thor
Yeah that could well be the case. I tend to get focused on my own desire to rant on the issue.

[color=66ff00]I'm from the north dude.

I tend not to talk too much about it though as I have friends 'on both sides of the community' (what a stupid term) who are affected. My friend Kate had to move home to Newry because of the trouble near her house on the Donegal road in Belfast. The loyalists effectively shut down Belfast, all shops were closed at 4pm and the motorway and railways were either subject to bomb scares or barricaded off.

No fun for those stuck in the middle.
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Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 13, 2005, 06:23:55 am
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
I think you've missed Vyper's point Rand. He was going for a solution tantamount to to flattening both sides and writing "Too Stupid To Live" in words that could be seen from space.

Excessive yes but at least its equally unfair to both sides :p


kara has hit the nail on the head.

[q]Of course I'm pretty sure that sometime after they'll be expecting you to take responsibility for all of the horrific things that British people have done over here and Britan can be raised to the ground.[/q]

I don't want to get into semantics since as I said, kara just clarified my position - but... You're missing the fact that Ireland hasn't got the military capability for mass genocide/mass-destruction. We do. :arr:
Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: Martinus on September 13, 2005, 07:01:45 am
Quote
Originally posted by vyper


kara has hit the nail on the head.

[q][color=66ff00]Of course I'm pretty sure that sometime after they'll be expecting you to take responsibility for all of the horrific things that British people have done over here and Britan can be raised to the ground.[/color][/q]

I don't want to get into semantics since as I said, kara just clarified my position - but... You're missing the fact that Ireland hasn't got the military capability for mass genocide/mass-destruction. We do. :arr:

[color=66ff00]That's just anti-semantic dude.

Anyhow I was just being facetious when talking about raising the mainland, it was more a point about seeing things from the other perspective.
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Title: Riots in Belfast
Post by: vyper on September 13, 2005, 07:20:38 am
Again, the irony is missed. :p

Alright alright, I'll stop now.