Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on September 12, 2005, 05:31:38 pm
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/12/AR2005091200670.html
One thing I don't understand:
[q]Men and women, young and old, rushed the settlements soon after the last Israeli soldier passed through the Kissufim Crossing a little before 7 a.m., locking the gate behind them. Israel will maintain control over its border with Gaza, a fact Palestinian officials say means the occupation has not yet ended here.[/q]
So would this equate to the US occupying Canada because it controls its northern border? I mean, borders are a mutual thing, right? Each nation controls its own side? Isn't that how it's supposed to work? Tell me I am missing something, because this just seems stupid, and yet I've seen this claim of continued Israeli "occupation" regarding the border in many, many places.
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It's the fact that they control Gaza's border with Egypt that they have a problem with.
Washington Post simply didn't clarify it enough
And the fact that they still control Gaza's airspace too for that matter.
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Never look a gift horse in the mouth...
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I wouldn't call it a gift..
Unless I?m misinformed, Israel is moving the settlers to other settlements and is increasing it's hold there. The wall is growingand last I heard they plan to cut-off Jerusalem.
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Originally posted by redmenace
Never look a gift horse in the mouth...
I wouldn't call giving something back that you stole in the first place a gift.
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Stole? Interesting choice of word.
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How about we not start a huge fight?
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Originally posted by Sandwich
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/12/AR2005091200670.html
One thing I don't understand:
[q]Men and women, young and old, rushed the settlements soon after the last Israeli soldier passed through the Kissufim Crossing a little before 7 a.m., locking the gate behind them. Israel will maintain control over its border with Gaza, a fact Palestinian officials say means the occupation has not yet ended here.[/q]
So would this equate to the US occupying Canada because it controls its northern border? I mean, borders are a mutual thing, right? Each nation controls its own side? Isn't that how it's supposed to work? Tell me I am missing something, because this just seems stupid, and yet I've seen this claim of continued Israeli "occupation" regarding the border in many, many places.
I believe Israel controls the coast and airspace, does it not?
To be fair, that'd be more of a siege or blockade than an occupation.
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Originally posted by Omniscaper
Stole? Interesting choice of word.
And gift isn't?
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Yeah, I don't think it's the Israel-Gaza border they have a problem with, more the Gaza-Egypt border and airspace. It doesn't exactly look like sovereignty, now does it?
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Originally posted by Sandwich
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/12/AR2005091200670.html
One thing I don't understand:
[q]Men and women, young and old, rushed the settlements soon after the last Israeli soldier passed through the Kissufim Crossing a little before 7 a.m., locking the gate behind them. Israel will maintain control over its border with Gaza, a fact Palestinian officials say means the occupation has not yet ended here.[/q]
So would this equate to the US occupying Canada because it controls its northern border? I mean, borders are a mutual thing, right? Each nation controls its own side? Isn't that how it's supposed to work? Tell me I am missing something, because this just seems stupid, and yet I've seen this claim of continued Israeli "occupation" regarding the border in many, many places.
i agree dude, someone in the government over there or whoever said the quote is a lam3 nubtard. this sounds like the kinda person who busts his butt for years to get his candy, then complains when its too sweet.... wow.
:nod:
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Originally posted by karajorma
It's the fact that they control Gaza's border with Egypt that they have a problem with.
Washington Post simply didn't clarify it enough
And the fact that they still control Gaza's airspace too for that matter.
Israel does not control the Gaza-Egypt border (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/624381.html). Get your facts straight. :rolleyes:
The airspace and coast, I don't know about.
And, as a reaction to the article I linked to in this post... Now they want the West Bank? And Jerusalem? Hell no! They want to behave like primitive savages, they're welcome to, as long as they don't act all surprised if they're treated as such.
As for Egypt, well, perhaps they're allowing the Palestinians to celebrate, and perhaps they're just not up to the task of securing their border.. Time will tell.
:rolleyes: at the whole thing.
EDIT: Heh. Check out the blatant lies in this article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1777862,00.html):
[q]While Gaza shares a border with Egypt at Rafah, the frontier crossing has been closed and the area is being sealed off by Egyptian border guards. Palestinians wanting to cross the border or export goods into Egypt must travel via the Israeli border crossings at Nitzana and Kerem Shalom.[/q]
I'm surprised they "missed" the opportunity to cover the exciting action at the border, with the overwhelmed Egyptian border guards unable to prevent Palestinians from crossing the border. :rolleyes: once again.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Israel does not control the Gaza-Egypt border (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/624381.html). Get your facts straight. :rolleyes:
I'd pretty much heard that Israel planned to retain direct control of the Philadelphi Road in order to do just that. Looks like they decided against it thankfully.
However it looks like they're using the egyptians as their cats paw based on what I can see.
Israel withdrew after agreeing to the deployment of an Egyptian force to control the border area.
The Rafah crossing - which Israel says will remain closed for six months - is Gaza's main link to the outside world. An alternative crossing out of Gaza will be open at Nitzana.
That's from This (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4237734.stm) BBC news story. Considering that as far as I can see Rafah is on the border of Gaza and Egypt what business is it of Israel's how long the border stays open or closed?
Maybe I've missed something as I'm not completely in the know about the subject. I merely looked up the details after you posted.
Originally posted by Sandwich
The airspace and coast, I don't know about.
Those they do control both. Pretty much every article I've read says so.
Originally posted by Sandwich
And, as a reaction to the article I linked to in this post... Now they want the West Bank? And Jerusalem? Hell no! They want to behave like primitive savages, they're welcome to, as long as they don't act all surprised if they're treated as such.
They're entitled to both (Well only half of Jeruselem). Don't get me started on that subject.
Originally posted by Sandwich
EDIT: Heh. Check out the blatant lies in this article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1777862,00.html):
[q]While Gaza shares a border with Egypt at Rafah, the frontier crossing has been closed and the area is being sealed off by Egyptian border guards. Palestinians wanting to cross the border or export goods into Egypt must travel via the Israeli border crossings at Nitzana and Kerem Shalom.[/q]
I'm surprised they "missed" the opportunity to cover the exciting action at the border, with the overwhelmed Egyptian border guards unable to prevent Palestinians from crossing the border. :rolleyes: once again.
The Times is own by Rupert Murdoch. That should be more than enough to tell you about the level of accuracy and integrety to expect from it. (hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't say bad things about him now that he owns HLP).
The BBC link says that's what the Israelis want but it's not what has happened yet. Had the Times been printed 3-4 weeks from now it would probably be completely truthful.
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Ahh, ok, now things are beginning to become a bit clearer. The "Israel controls the border" line is apparently referring to the Rafah crossing, which is remaining closed. I'd actually heard that, but I assumed it would be transferred over to PA/Egyptian forces when the pullout was completed. That it's not being released is interesting, although not all that surprising. I've been to the Rafah terminal - they don't call it that for nothing. There's a complete base (security forces, not IDF) there, and a full-blown terminal that rivals your typical international airport terminal. It's not the kind of thing you just hand over to the Palestinians just like that.
My guess - though I could be wrong - is that it's remaining closed for six months for one or more of a number of reasons:
- because it'll take that long to train replacements from Egypt/Gaza on how to operate everything
- because it'll take that long to clear everything Israeli out and replace it with PA/Egyptian counterpart equipment
- because they're still in a trial period of responsibility (which, so far, they seem to be blowing right out of the water) and aren't going to open the gates until people start behaving responsibly
Or it could be something else entirely.
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Given that I hope you can see why the guy was coming from when he said that the occupation was still going on.
As Aldo said it's more a blockade than an occupation but I can't say I'm surprised that the Palestinians are pissed off about it. Especially if the Israelis are trying to reroute all entries and exits via their own country.
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Originally posted by karajorma
I wouldn't call giving something back that you stole in the first place a gift.
And land that really isn't theirs either. They were forced into those areas by Jordan and other countries, after, among other events, attempted take overs of the countries. And sorry to envoke the same old argument but the Israelis have just as much a claim to the land considering they were forced to leave in the first place and the fact they lived there for thousands of years before the "diaspora." But basically, what I was trying to say, is to count your blessing instead of grumbling and complaining. People are less likely to sympathize with you when you decide to ***** and moan. Honestly, if Israel pulled out of all areas being "occupied," including control of the coasts and air, the palestinians would be complaining that they don't control all of "Palestine."
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If you're going to point that out, I could always point out the fact that most of the Israelis can't really claim decent from the inhabitants of the Biblical Kingdom of Israel.
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And I'm going to reiterate my claim that the Spanish have a better claim on Israel than the Jews anyway if we're doing the going back to biblical times nonsense.
Fact is that there is no one who can claim to own any land anywhere except maybe in parts of Africa or the Pacific who didn't get it by pushing someone else out of the way.
The rules go based on who is currently pushing not based on what happened years ago or you might as well give America back to the indians.
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Isn't (or wasn't) the sea a key source of trade for the Palestinian territories before the coast was sealed off? To me that'd be more important than the airport (I understand why the Israelis would be scared to open up either, but at the same time it's a lack of trust that continues to characterise this conflict and stop any prospect of real peace)
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Yes, the Sea is still the major source of trade in the world. Until those lands can actually feel themselves growing economically there will always be voices of dissent (there will be afterwards, but meh, that's humanity for you)
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Originally posted by karajorma
And I'm going to reiterate my claim that the Spanish have a better claim on Israel than the Jews anyway if we're doing the going back to biblical times nonsense.
Fact is that there is no one who can claim to own any land anywhere except maybe in parts of Africa or the Pacific who didn't get it by pushing someone else out of the way.
The rules go based on who is currently pushing not based on what happened years ago or you might as well give America back to the indians.
eh, considering tribal warfare, I doubt anyone there can claim any land as their own.
And even the rule of whoever is living there now is warped and they are enumerable situations where it would not work.
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Originally posted by redmenace
eh, considering tribal warfare, I doubt anyone there can claim any land as their own.
And even the rule of whoever is living there now is warped and they are enumerable situations where it would not work.
Which is why the original solution of splitting the land 50/50 is the only fair way to do things.
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While I'm here, and since we all seem to be talking sensibly, can I just ask about this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111727.stm
Just found it whilst browsing some messageboards and wondered about it?
That's a bit of an extreme measure isn't it? I've no doubt that Israel would be phenominally thorough in checking out the backgrounds of applicants anyway? In a way I can see the motivation behind it, but that isn't the solution, more a ticket to more problems.
Edit : I am assuming, possibly optimistically, that this is some kind of temporary measure until Israel can find a more efficient way of processing these claims?
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seems odd applying that law to Palestinians only
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Originally posted by Flipside
While I'm here, and since we all seem to be talking sensibly, can I just ask about this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111727.stm
Just found it whilst browsing some messageboards and wondered about it?
That's a bit of an extreme measure isn't it? I've no doubt that Israel would be phenominally thorough in checking out the backgrounds of applicants anyway? In a way I can see the motivation behind it, but that isn't the solution, more a ticket to more problems.
Edit : I am assuming, possibly optimistically, that this is some kind of temporary measure until Israel can find a more efficient way of processing these claims?
The article actually explains the reasoning fairly well:
[q]But the minister in charge of relations with parliament, Gideon Ezra, has defended the bill on the grounds that 30 Israelis have been allegedly killed by Palestinians who gained citizenship and residency rights through marriage.[/q]
I have knowledge of this phenomenon from my army service. The only problems Arab Israelis faced (this was pre-2000-intifada) when passing through checkpoints was the fact that (yes, this is racial profiling) they "look" Arab. Which they are. But so do Palestinians. Which they are. Matter of fact, the ONLY difference between the Palestinians and the Arab-Israelis is legal/citizenship standing or whatever you want to term that - genetically/racially, they're the same. Some just happened to live in Israel.
ANYway... (how'd I get on that?) ...it was a known phenomenon that Palestinians try to marry Israeli Arabs in order to get citizenship, which gives them free passage through checkpoints, which opens the door wide for terrorism. It happened in the past, and is still happening now. Sucks to be caught red-handed, don't it?
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Yeah, I read that passage in the report and suspected that was the reasoning, well, and the massive increase in mixed families that the recent clearing of settlements has caused being far more than your systems were equipped to recieve, an increase of several hundred percent in a few weeks.
As a member of a country where marrying for passports has been a known phenomenon (I myself know someone who was duped and dumped) I do understand that reasoning, oddly enough. However, I think blanket laws such as this can be a little dangerous, it punishes the innocent along with the guilty and the innocent won't forget that any more than the guilty will. And don't rely on understanding in this case from the innocent, attraction/love/lust is one of the most powerful human forces, and trying to stand between a couple like that can be a big risk to take. I noted also that this law was passed reluctantly, so I'm thinking that your government is aware of this too.
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It seems a bit - dare I say - racist to treat every Arab as a terrorist, though. I understand the wish to keep Israel a predominately white (Jewish?) country (because that's the people that vote in the powerbrokers), but it's not really fair, is it? After all, the territories are a complete ****ehole, it's sort of understandable people would want to leave simply to survive.
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http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453628.065972222.html
Boy, never saw this one coming :doubt:
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What do you call an unarmed Arab?
Terrorist bastard!
What do you call an Arab with a rocket launcher aimed at you?
Mr. Arab.... Sir.
Yeah it's late and they're not so good...
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Originally posted by aldo_14
It seems a bit - dare I say - racist to treat every Arab as a terrorist, though. I understand the wish to keep Israel a predominately white (Jewish?) country (because that's the people that vote in the powerbrokers), but it's not really fair, is it? After all, the territories are a complete ****ehole, it's sort of understandable people would want to leave simply to survive.
It's a fact of life, one that Westerners can't seem to comprehend very well: the majority of terrorism around the globe today is by Muslims, the vast majority of whom are Arabs. The terrorism directed at Israel is solely by Muslim Arabs.
Therefore, we have both racial profiling and behavioral profiling.
By the way, don't be mislead: we treat your "every Arab" as a terrorist suspect. If we treated someone like a terrorist, they'd most likely have a bullet in their head within a few seconds.
It has nothing to do with wanting to keep Israel Jewish, BTW, and everything to do with stemming the avenues of terrorism into Israeli cafes, streets, and wedding halls.
Originally posted by redmenace
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453628.065972222.html
Boy, never saw this one coming :doubt:
****. I knew it was happening, but not in such large numbers. It's either gonna become civil war in there, with the Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighting the PA, or it's gonna be the ultimate breeding ground for terrorists to strike at Israel from.