Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nix on September 20, 2005, 03:24:21 pm
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Anandtech's review of the X-fi (http://www.anandtech.com/multimedia/showdoc.aspx?i=2518)
I picked up one of these... the cheapest model, and boy, am I amazed! Looks like Creative Labs has come back from the dead with this new card. I dont know if anyone else has been plagued with problems with thier Audigy cards using Windows XP and the Via K8T800 chipset, if you have, this card works flawlessly on this chipset/OS combination. Soundfonts are back again, and actually work this time. Descent's midi's never sounded better. :D Includes a patch for Doom 3 to use EAX instead of the software based audio engine. I was an early adopter of the Audigy series, and I was severely let down. I'm genuinely impressed with Creative's new card though, In the few days I've had it, it's an amazing card for how cheap it is.
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Considering the cheapest one I could find was £95, I won't be joining the revolution quite yet.
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Its on my list for upgrades with my next system.
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My next system is on my list of upgrades for a few years now, so I don't think the revolution will be touching me until I grow a gray beard, and even then, it might pass.
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Originally posted by BlackDove
My next system is on my list of upgrades for a few years now, so I don't think the revolution will be touching me until I grow a gray beard, and even then, it might pass.
At some point you've gotta bite the bullet.
My plan is to wait till next summer, save up a bit of cash as my "build a computer fund", spec out all the parts, order them and build it.
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The bullet I'm biting is food to eat.
It's hard to live on my old system if I buy a new one.
Though you know, the TNT card always looked nice and chewable when I took it out after it'd overheat.
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Originally posted by BlackDove
The bullet I'm biting is food to eat.
It's hard to live on my old system if I buy a new one.
Though you know, the TNT card always looked nice and chewable when I took it out after it'd overheat.
Well the last one I built on a student budget and there's plenty of students around buying fancier laptops that cost way more than my hack and slash built from the ground up system that I made myself cost me :)
But yes...food, and maybe shelter are important too.
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Originally posted by BlackDove
The bullet I'm biting is food to eat.
It's hard to live on my old system if I buy a new one.
Though you know, the TNT card always looked nice and chewable when I took it out after it'd overheat.
Mmm fried and crispy computer hardware.
Tastes kinda like chicken.
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I'm not sure what the big deal is. The review says that positional audio in games sounds about the same as it used to and the CMSS3D headphone support is no better than was before. There is no mention of the excellent global EAX effects, so I suppose those are unchanged. It's also kind of expensive at $130. I doubt it's that much better than my $47 OEM Audigy 2 Value (which hasn't given me any issues on a K8T800 pro). They are both miles ahead of onboard sound, at any rate.
As for Descent midis, I can listen to those on my old game computer. I have this Yamaha software synthesizer on it that sounds way better than any of the Creative ones I have (came free on an old motherboard driver CD, but it only has 9x/ME and NT4 versions). The SBLive card can also emulate an SB16 and lets me hear the music exactly as it sounded ten years ago. :D
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For my next computer, I'll be using either onboard, my Audigy 2 Value, or (in the event of a notebook) something along the lines of an Audigy 2 NX.
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I have heard HUGE hype about this card for a few months now, but not any criticism other than price. However, marketing hype usually is that way. Remember HL2?
Anyway, anyone know if this card spams line noise all over the PCI channel? I'd hate to buy another Creative sound card unless I knew this issue was fixed.
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For gamers there should the the basic model with 32MB X-RAM.
XtremeMusic - The basic version, no X-RAM.
Platinum - Basic version with I/O drive.
Fatal1ty FPS - I/O drive and 64MB X-RAM.
Elite Pro - I/O console and 64 MB X-RAM.
Creative is clearly missing a basic gamer model, XtremeMusic with 32MB X-RAM and no I/O drive or console would do the trick.
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Here's the funny thing... I look at my card, and it has a Samsung RAM chip on it, right above the processor. Call me nuts, but maybe ALL cards have a small amount of X-ram?
Soundfont caching works with System memory, not onboard card memory as I can crank up the memory caching clear up to 100% of my system ram, which is a gig.
I think the main reasons why this card is superior to others on the market is because it can do a TON of stuff in hardware, compared to your budget 30-50 dollar sound card or onboard audio with a DAC from Analog Devices. Another main reason is the incredible snr ratio. Line noise is non existant, whereas on cheaper software-based cards you can hear noises, popping.. stuff like that.
I guess you have to pair up the card with a very good set of headphones to hear a real difference.
As for MIDI support, the reason why I'm so stoked is that with my old SB Live! 512, I could play my MS-DOS games, and select the TRUE GM Midi Synth in games, which was a ton and a half better than OPL3 or the famed Adlib emulation. The output with the GM Synth would be put through my headphones, not through the midi port. At least with my old ancient SB16, I was forced to select OPL3/2/Adlib for MIDI Playback which sucked. Anyways, with my Audigy, running MS-DOS Games with true GM Midi playback, they just didnt sound quite the same, like the onboard wavetable was lacking or had a smaller instrument set. With the X-Fi, I can now listen to Midi's just like I could back in the day with my SB Live 512, with an updated E-MU patch set. The upside of all this is that MIDI sounds wonderful, through a hardware processor, not a software processor, without 3rd party software (like the Yamaha XG/Lite software) I always suspected my card was odd, because I pre-ordered my Audigy before they were actually released, so I had one of the very very first revisions of the cards. It probably had some odd bugs that got worked out in later versions and in the A2's.
Another problem I had with my old Audigy 1, when I would reformat my system and start from scratch, Creative's driver installer would refuse to detect the card. I would have to install the drivers manually, which sometimes worked, but ALWAYS messed up the recording side of my card. If I installed drivers manually, playback worked fine, but I couldnt record anything without mad line noise and popping. I never bought an Audigy 2 because people reported this exact same problem with BOTH Audigy 1 and 2 cards. Looks like some people though have had better luck than I.
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Originally posted by Nix
Here's the funny thing... I look at my card, and it has a Samsung RAM chip on it, right above the processor. Call me nuts, but maybe ALL cards have a small amount of X-ram?
True to some degree. Nearly all decent audio cards (but not necessarily integrated audio solutions) have some onboard RAM to store midi samples. However, the difference is that X-Fi can store game sounds to X-RAM.
And X-RAM is just Creative's marketing name for the feature, which means no other audio cards have "X-RAM" per-se. X-RAM feature still requires games to support it.
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Looking at it like an über-boosted SB-AWE32 I might even consider buying one.
I know for most people, the SB-16 was THE SOUNDCARD, however I was one of those spoilt children who had the "BEST".
Getting my hands on a s-card that offers native support (not some problematic emulation) of my beloved AWE32 is a dream come true.
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I think I may still have a 10 year old soundblaster 16 sitting around somewhere.
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Looking at the card I have compared to the fatality or elite pro (drool) that ram chip is present on all cards. Unless its cheaper to start using actual RAM chips on the card for midi/wavetable synthesis. it may be something that may be utilized in the future. I found it odd to find something like that on a soundcard.
I still have my SB16 AND an Ensoniq which was over a foot long. My Live blew up mysteriously, but those two still survived.
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Line noise is non existant, whereas on cheaper software-based cards you can hear noises, popping.. stuff like that.
I don't get any pops or clicks on this Audigy 2 Value but I can hear faint buzzing noises whenever there is any activity on the PCI or AGP buses (scrolling in a web browser, for example). It's sort of weird, like audio feedback of movements of things on your desktop. This is apparently some issue with certain Asus motherboards though and has nothing to do with the soundcard. I got the same thing on an older SBLive 5.1.
The upside of all this is that MIDI sounds wonderful, through a hardware processor, not a software processor, without 3rd party software (like the Yamaha XG/Lite software) I always suspected my card was odd, because I pre-ordered my Audigy before they were actually released, so I had one of the very very first revisions of the cards. It probably had some odd bugs that got worked out in later versions and in the A2's.
I don't think this is as big of an issue as it seems, since the games that uses midi files are pretty much only old ones (at least all of mine are). Since there is a lot of processing power to spare, the software-based Yamaha XG thing works very well and doesn't cause any performance issues as it might in a newer game.
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CP this card is for 'us, oldtimers' still into dos and win9x games.
BTW - Yes, it is the soundcard's fault!
I used to have the same problem with my Ensoniq card.
A good trick to try is to move the soundcar further away from your graphics card and generally everything else.
(Putting a gap between my TNT2 and the Ensoniq card solved the problem.)
The problem lies in the fact that the unamplified analog signal goes through some parts of the card - and the EM interference from the nearby electronics invades it creating noise.
Is it the motherboards/videocards fault? Hell no!
It's the card fault for sending the said signal through unmasked cables.
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CP this card is for 'us, oldtimers' still into dos and win9x games.
BTW - Yes, it is the soundcard's fault!
I used to have the same problem with my Ensoniq card.
A good trick to try is to move the soundcar further away from your graphics card and generally everything else.
(Putting a gap between my TNT2 and the Ensoniq card solved the problem.)
The problem lies in the fact that the unamplified analog signal goes through some parts of the card - and the EM interference from the nearby electronics invades it creating noise.
Is it the motherboards/videocards fault? Hell no!
It's the card fault for sending the said signal through unmasked cables.
No, it definitely has something to do with some Asus motherboards. I've heard numerous people complaining about this with the only common factor being the motherboard brand and saying that switching to a different brand fixed the problem for whatever reason. I think this issue never got much attention because the buzzing is only perceivable through headphones and most people use speakers. It's already in the furthest slot to maximize airflow to the video card.
Does this card have the SB16 emulation or something? As far as I know, they haven't had this handy feature on any cards since the Live 5.1. Even with that card, it only works on some older motherboards, ones that had a shared PCI/ISA slot, and only in DOS or 9x/ME. Although it works perfectly on such a motherboard. I have this card in an older computer specifically tailored to playing retro games; I can use SB16 sound and either the OPL3 FM or the Yamaha SYXG50 synth through general MIDI.
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The Audigy had MS-DOS compatibility, emulating a SB16 AND MPU-301 MIDI emulation thru headphones, but wasnt near as robust as the Live was. OPL3 emulation was hella slow, even on my Athlon XP machine. the Live reproduced a SP16's abilities flawlessly. The good part with the Audigy reproduced MPU midi spot-on with no performance hit.
You know that whistling, or screeching noise when you do something to the desktop? It could be hardware related, I've heard firsthand that software based cards are notorious for that. I'm an exclusive headphone user, I've used Sony MDR-V700DJ's, currently using a pair of MDR-C780s. I'll plug these into any software based solution and I'll hear that noise, but I've never heard it on an audigy or hardware based card. Though, the Audigy's were notorious for causing interference amongst other devices.. I have had my Asus board for almost a year now and my Audigy gave me way more problems than I liked. No whistling or screeching when you move scrollbars or anything. Though... the Value line is ovbiously a cheaper card than the higher cost Audigy cards.
This card though, has no legacy support. It's made for XP IMHO, No MS-DOS utilities, but it's like having the best of the old, and the very best of the new all rolled up in one card. Put simply, you can have things sound just like they did in the past, on your modern machine. Also, with interchangable soundfonts, it makes the listening experience much more interesting than being stuck with MS's DLS Synth.
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The Audigy had MS-DOS compatibility, emulating a SB16 AND MPU-301 MIDI emulation thru headphones, but wasnt near as robust as the Live was. OPL3 emulation was hella slow, even on my Athlon XP machine. the Live reproduced a SP16's abilities flawlessly. The good part with the Audigy reproduced MPU midi spot-on with no performance hit.
Yeah, the Live emulator has worked perfectly for every game I have tried it with. If only it worked without ISA, I could have used it with a better motherboard/CPU.
You know that whistling, or screeching noise when you do something to the desktop? It could be hardware related, I've heard firsthand that software based cards are notorious for that. I'm an exclusive headphone user, I've used Sony MDR-V700DJ's, currently using a pair of MDR-C780s. I'll plug these into any software based solution and I'll hear that noise, but I've never heard it on an audigy or hardware based card. Though, the Audigy's were notorious for causing interference amongst other devices.. I have had my Asus board for almost a year now and my Audigy gave me way more problems than I liked. No whistling or screeching when you move scrollbars or anything. Though... the Value line is ovbiously a cheaper card than the higher cost Audigy cards.
I tried the onboard ALC850 audio once for a few minutes and I got the buzzing too (it was garbage at any rate - pops and crackles, no global reverb, no midi synth and considerably lower game framerates), but it wasn't really any worse than the Audigy 2. I have also used only headphones for the last several years (currently use Beyerdynamic DT250-80's; headphones are far better than speakers IMO). I can't hear the noises through speakers at all, but they are quite noticeable with the headphones, which is probably why more people don't complain about this.
What board do you have? I have noticed that buzzing issue on both an A7N8X and my current A8V deluxe, but I can't hear anything like that on an old A7M266.
The Value is identical to the more expensive ones (apart from the extras like firewire and the breakout box), except that the rated SNR ratio is a little lower. However, I've heard complaints on this buzzing on the entire Audigy and Audigy 2 lines when used with certain motherboards.
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I had to take the Audigy out of my A7N8X Deluxe I was so unhappy with the poping, clicking, noise, and poor game performance (it was making IL-2 sound like I was in a fishbowl with all but the oldest drivers).
The Soundstorm onboard is a fantastic little solution. I want to go back to having a dedicated soundboard in the next machine...but for the moment the Soundstorm does the trick. IT makes you almost wish nVidia made soundcards...
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It looks like all of the new X-fi cards have a small amount of X-ram. According to Neowin.net, the basic models have 16mb of RAM onboard. It looks like I wasnt nuts after all! Though all I really need to do is look up the numbers on the RAM chip and find out what size it could be. So every card DOES have X-Ram, but the basic models probably utilize all the ram at once so that the user cant really do anything with the ram, since I dont know if you can customize the functions or usage of X-ram on the top tier cards.
As for my motherboard, i'm using an Asus K8V-SE DLX with the K8t800 chipset (non pro, the 754 pin model). Using my Audigy, I've never got whistling or that buzz noise whenever you use a scrollbar or anything like that. As cards go, I've had the original base model audigy MP3+ version, which was thier basic card at release. (SB part number SB0040) It operates clean under windows 98, on my old MSI with the 266 FSB chipset. I've had issues with drivers, the squeal of death, all sorts of wierd bugginess with
the old audigy.
I think Creative has come back on top again with a soundcard that's actually worth it's cost. When I upgraded from a SB16 to a SB Live (skipped the AWE32) It felt like a major upgrade. This gives me the same exact feeling. Much better all around (and the drivers actually detect the card properly!). For the lower two models, all you need to decide is if you want a breakout box or not. The cards are the same. The top tier models, I believe have additional DAC's onboard for higher audio quality in recording. Thats why they can justify the 200+ dollar difference between basic card and pro card. Gamers would probably never make full use of the card, if all they do is game and listen to music. People who make music probably would want to get the top tier cards. IMHO, the Fatality card is a waste of money and time unless you really think the X-Ram is gonna give you an extra FPS or two in games. I find it laughable, but whatever makes you happy, I guess.