Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on August 04, 2001, 06:03:00 pm
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I'm going into the Israeli army for a short period for my yearly reserve duty. I'll be gone from the 6th of this month to the 23rd (theoretically on that last date...). So if you don't hear from me by the 25th or so you should probably assume the worst... :-/
Here's to getting back safe and sound! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar (//"http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
So if you don't hear from me by the 25th or so you should probably assume the worst...
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Cya
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cya
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life sux don't it?
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
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The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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Stay safe and well dude.
...and keep your head down.
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He strikes from the darkness. He is unseen, unheard, he is the snack ninja. Pray your refrigerator isn't next.
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Do be careful, that area is really shaping up as a hot spot. Wish you good luck!
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Good luck
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Good luck man. Conscription is not a good thing!
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Originally posted by Arnav:
Good luck man. Conscription is not a good thing!
It's not what you probably think; I already did my 3 years service in the army, and this is just reserves... but still
Thanks, all!
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Good Luck man. Hope everything goes well.
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Stay safe dude. We don't wanna lose ya (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Well, you can never be too careful... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Good luck out there.
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Hey hey hey! I'm back for 2 days leave... boy has it been an interesting time. I've actually seen some action and all. I'm trying to keep a journal of sorts on my Palm, so I'll put it up for anyone who's interested to read about. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Anyway, for anyone who's been keeping up on the news from this corner of the world, that suicide bomber that blew up in the center of Jerusalem really has me pi**ed. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) 17 dead. One family lost the father, mother and 3 of 5 kids. And what did they do? Just go out for a summer family outing at a popular pizza place in town.
I'm not sure if I could continue this post without making serious use of swearing, so I'll just stop here. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Hey hey hey! I'm back for 2 days leave... boy has it been an interesting time. I've actually seen some action and all. I'm trying to keep a journal of sorts on my Palm, so I'll put it up for anyone who's interested to read about. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Anyway, for anyone who's been keeping up on the news from this corner of the world, that suicide bomber that blew up in the center of Jerusalem really has me pi**ed. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) 17 dead. One family lost the father, mother and 3 of 5 kids. And what did they do? Just go out for a summer family outing at a popular pizza place in town.
I'm not sure if I could continue this post without making serious use of swearing, so I'll just stop here. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
At least, I hope you'll take enough rest (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Humanity really can suck sometimes (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
And again, I wish you good luck and a speedy, safe return from whatever conflict you may find yourself in.
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Take care sandwich, here's to hoping those innocent victims went to a better place.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Anyway, for anyone who's been keeping up on the news from this corner of the world, that suicide bomber that blew up in the center of Jerusalem really has me pi**ed. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) 17 dead. One family lost the father, mother and 3 of 5 kids. And what did they do? Just go out for a summer family outing at a popular pizza place in town.
Yeah, I heard about that. Everyone here in Brazil is quite mad about the incident - one of the people killed and a few of the injured on the blast were brazilians. Now go back there and bulldoze those damn terrorists before it's too late... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
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Take care out there and keep your head down. Here's hoping to your wellfare and all those around you.
Joe.
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From SoT: "People made me lose my faith in humanity"
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I saw an article on the BBC the other day about a Palestinian school for suicide bombers... it's ******* insane, I swear, these kids are sent to this summer school and told that being a suicide bomber is the greatest thing, and if they are one, when they get to heaven, and I quote, "there will be 12 virgins waiting for them" (I think it's 12... dunno anymores...)
I know well enough not to beleive everything I see on the news- hell, I do A level Media Studies, and I've watched B5 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif), but the BBC usually does a good job of showing an unbiased report...
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Hm, actually BBC usually shows the palestinians as better people than they actually are, and they always make the Israeli seem evil. Like if they were "atacking innocent people" (the occupation of Jenin (sp?) is a good example of this). The problem is that this innocent people is constantly bombarding Israel - with military attacks and these hideous terrorist attacks. This damned thing should stop...
[This message has been edited by Styxx (edited 08-14-2001).]
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Lucky bugger, actually. Right now it seems it's safer being a soldier than a civilian in Israel (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Sad, but true...
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Originally posted by Styxx:
Hm, actually BBC usually shows the palestinians as better people than they actually are, and they always make the Israeli seem evil. Like if they were "atacking innocent people" (the occupation of Jenin (sp?) is a good example of this). The problem is that this innocent people is constantly bombarding Israel - with military attacks and these hideous terrorist attacks. This damned thing should stop...
I agree that these suicide bombers totally suck. But at the same time, look and compare the palestinian army with the israelian army. The israelian army is in a whole other division. They are probably one of the best equiped army in the world (and best trained). I think Israel is the top one country in the world who spend most (in percentage) of their budget on the military. So drastic methods are neccessary. But killing innocent is to much.And I have a feeling that the israelian army also have many innocent lives on the hands.
But in the end. War sucks. It's better on the computor. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 08-14-2001).]
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Someone needs to hurry up and find the page of the Bible and the rest of those holy books that has 'all characters portrayed are fictional and any resemblance to people living or dead is purely coincidental.'
Of course, that would just make things worse.
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I beleive that it should have been discovered a loooooong time ago. Holy war is one of the major foundations for my belief that organised religion is bad (mmmmkay?)
I mean, everyone should be free to believe what they want to... as long as they don't try to force it upon others.
Also, I believe people should live for the present... let's face it, who here would really care if some ancient, obscure relative of mine had killed or invaded the land of their obscure relative?
What I'm trying to say is people should forgive and forget, live for today... not yesterday.
Quick edit: Red Dwarf is A1 supar (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Who's for rubber nuclear weapons? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by The Claw (edited 08-14-2001).]
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Originally posted by Shrike:
Someone needs to hurry up and find the page of the Bible and the rest of those holy books that has 'all characters portrayed are fictional and any resemblance to people living or dead is purely coincidental.'
Of course, that would just make things worse.
you've watched Red Dwarf too I see (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by The Claw:
forgive and forget, live for today... not yesterday.
Words to live by.
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You know, getting in a political arguement here would really be messy. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) But really, I do hope that sandwich will be back okay!
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Originally posted by Styxx:
Hm, actually BBC usually shows the palestinians as better people than they actually are, and they always make the Israeli seem evil. Like if they were "atacking innocent people" (the occupation of Jenin (sp?) is a good example of this). The problem is that this innocent people is constantly bombarding Israel - with military attacks and these hideous terrorist attacks. This damned thing should stop...
[This message has been edited by Styxx (edited 08-14-2001).]
Strange. The BBC is generally thought of (here at least) as a biased news agency, plain and simple. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Anyway, they were right on about the suicide schools. I've seen it. It's horrid. The British, when they were fighting the suicied bombings while occupying Israel way back when, came up with a very interesting and effective way to put an end to it. Pork. As taboo as it may be to Jews, it is even more so to the Muslims. They hold that if they touch a pig once, their place in paradise is forfeit. So the Brits wrapped the bodies of every suicide bomber in pig-skin, and sent them back. The suicide bombings stopped quite rapidly.
Originally posted by Pez:
I agree that these suicide bombers totally suck. But at the same time, look and compare the palestinian army with the israelian army. The israelian army is in a whole other division. They are probably one of the best equiped army in the world (and best trained). I think Israel is the top one country in the world who spend most (in percentage) of their budget on the military. So drastic methods are neccessary. But killing innocent is to much.And I have a feeling that the israelian army also have many innocent lives on the hands.
But in the end. War sucks. It's better on the computor. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 08-14-2001).]
Pez, I can certainly understand where you're coming from. But let me point out a couple of things: 1, there is no country called Palestine, and the only armed forces they have is the Palestinian Police. Which, mind you, is quite a few levels above your average run-of-the-mill police force, with APC's, anti-tank weaponry, etc etc.
About the land of Israel, things are layed out like this: there are 4 different areas involved. A, B, C, and Israel. "Israel" in this case is undisputed territory of the country Israel, such as Tel-Aviv or Eilat. A, B and C areas are part of the territories (Gaza, Judea and Samaria). C is an area that is under complete Israeli control, municipally and security-wise. B is Israel's responsibility where security is concerned, but the municipal matters are in the Palestinian Authority's hands. And A, of course, is 100% the resposibility of the PA.
I guess that was just a FYI, and I didn't really have a point to make... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
When you say that "..drastic methods are neccessary. But killing innocent is to much." what do you mean? Neccessary for what? To show their disaffection with Israel? What?
Let me end with this: there have been many civillian deaths since the beginning of this conflict. Far too many. I don't know the exact numbers to give you, but it is something around a couple hundred Israelis to upwards of a thousand Palestinians. Again, I do not have the exact numbers. But realize this: the majority of the Palestinian deaths have occurred while they were in the middle of violent rioting, including live-fire gun battles with Israeli forces. The majority of Israeli deaths have occurred while they were en route to work, or eating out, or walking downtown, etc etc. Get the picture? We're fighing a battle against guerrila warfare. Such a battle has never been won by a standing army operating as such. Our orders are clear: if someone points a gun at you or an innocent bystander, kill them. If an Israeli soilder is dragged into a car (kidnapped), and you see it, shoot with all force into the car, even if it means that the soilder is wounded or killed.
It's a hard reality, but that's how things are. I personally know (knew? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) ) two of the 3 kidnapped Israeli soilders, Adi Avitan and Benny Avraham. I served with them for over a year. I can't even begin to imagine what they or their families are going through. And as brutal as it may sound, they might be better off dead.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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I'm sure this isn't the best board and thread for political disscusions... but somebody needs to help me understand one thing: why all the fighting? I mean who are these two different sides (Palestinians and Israelis) and why are they fighting with each other? I'm completely stupid when it comes to following world events. I mean if they can't get along, why not just divide up the land (are they fighting about the land? I mean it's not like it's a tropical paradise is it?), and say "this side is yours, and this side is ours" and build a huge brick wall between yourselfs. I mean... why all the hate? What is everyone fighting over? I need a history/world news lesson here.
Joe.
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Well, I don't know much, but from what I remember it's all about controlling the sacred places. Both sides want control of Jerusalem, for one instance - the fact is that the UN granted the land for the jewish(sp?), and the palestinians are not happy about it. There are other factors too - and sandwich could explain them a lot better - but I believe that's the bottom line...
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Eep! That's terrible. Why resort to violence? It's really getting them no where. Everytime they attack, or bomb, it just prolongs the processes taking place. Interesting about that pork thing, and scary about the car thing... all I can say is Eep!
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
Eep! That's terrible. Why resort to violence? It's really getting them no where. Everytime they attack, or bomb, it just prolongs the processes taking place. Interesting about that pork thing, and scary about the car thing... all I can say is Eep!
That pork things sounds so strange... I bet if they put walls with pork pelt all around the roads and public places, there would be no trouble anymore? Sounds stupid, but I don't see why it wouldn't work (apart from the "F16->boum->no more wall")
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Mental note to self: While travelling there wear a pork skin coat (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Well, that's definatly strange... but sounds effective...
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They won't beat you up, just gun you down from a distance (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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So they'd take the body of the suicide bombers, and wrap them in pork? So that when the bodies are sent back they are refused the right to go into heaven/nirvana/whatever they call it? I see how that would kill the spunk of a people not afraid to die for their beliefs...
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Pez, I can certainly understand where you're coming from.
Yeah, from Schweden. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) But if you are think that I have a grudge against Israel, the your wrong.
When you say that "..drastic methods are neccessary. But killing innocent is to much." what do you mean? Neccessary for what? To show their disaffection with Israel? What?
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Well, I just try to put me into their position. I'm no expert at the whole Israel situtation but I know that the palestinians done have the funds and military as Israel. So if you are in a weak position, and drastic methods are available, so what do you do (this doesn't mean I think it's right use them). And your probably right, they do it to show their disaffection on Israel and it seems to "boost" the palestinan confidence.
Pez
[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 08-15-2001).]
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Originally posted by joek:
I'm sure this isn't the best board and thread for political disscusions... but somebody needs to help me understand one thing: why all the fighting? I mean who are these two different sides (Palestinians and Israelis) and why are they fighting with each other? I'm completely stupid when it comes to following world events. I mean if they can't get along, why not just divide up the land (are they fighting about the land? I mean it's not like it's a tropical paradise is it?), and say "this side is yours, and this side is ours" and build a huge brick wall between yourselfs. I mean... why all the hate? What is everyone fighting over? I need a history/world news lesson here.
Joe.
Styxx is more or less correct: the fighting is religon-based. In the Koran (Islamic holy book) it says to kill the Jews, so that's what they do. Of course, they can't let on that that is their ultimate purpose, cause then the world would freak at the racisim(sp?). So they pretend to want peace for publicity's sake, while riling up the Palestinain people behind the scenes.
Anyway, one interesting thing to note: before the whole "peace" process began, before the Oslo accords, the situation was much closer to peace than it was before the current conflict. Back then the Jews and Arabs would have all sorts of interaction with each other's culture and stuff.
For those of you who don't know, I am essentially a Christian, although Jewish. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) I say essentially because many people can't understand how you can be both. So to make a long story short, the Bible that Jesus read was the Old Testament. One does not cancel out the other. Anyways, the reason I mention all this is that if any of you want to get a Biblical perspective on the news from Israel, my parents have a newsletter sent out every few months, so let me know. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
So that when the bodies are sent back they are refused the right to go into heaven/nirvana/whatever they call it?
Yeah, but it's more of a "you touched it, so you're contaminated" thing.
Originally posted by Pez:
Yeah, from Schweden. But if you are think that I have a grudge against Israel, the your wrong.
Gotcha. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
By the way, personally I have no problem whatsoever with the direction this thread has taken, but if it begins to turn into a flame war or anything of the sort (not that it looks like it will at the moment) I will request that it be closed. So keep it nice. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Hey hey hey, I'm back! Yay! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Details later - to tired for now... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Yah, welcome back anyway (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Yeah dude, welcome back (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Jabu:
Yah, welcome back anyway (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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I think the fighting is back because of the dumbass a$$hole bush.If you folow the news then you can see and notice it.Clinton was the one that wanted peace between them and he almost succeeded.But when bush became president it whent down hill whit the peace conference's becuase that A$$hole only cares about that damm missile shield that has no use. I think he messed up all the hadr work Clinton did.All though i am Dutch i think Cliton is the MAN!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Welcome back dude! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
[/edit]
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[This message has been edited by darkage (edited 08-23-2001).]
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Welcome back! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
You know what i'm surprised the Palestinians haven't tried? Nonviolent protests.
Think about it. It's worked for everyone who's ever used it in the past; Gandhi, King, etc. The only real exception is Tianeman Square in China.
But, instead, they feel they have to resort to violence to solve anything. I don't blame them; it's really the only thing they've known since the end of WW2 and the creation of Israel. I'm sure some of them believe in the "glory of martyrdom" and "slaughtering the infidels", etc, but some of them are just using that as an excuse to try to get some land for themselves.
In resorting to violence, the Palestinians give themselves a bad image, as do the Israelis by retaliating with such force. Things aren't going to get better there until cooler heads prevail. Unfortunately, at this rate many of those cool heads will have bullets in them. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by darkage:
I think the fighting is back because of the dumbass a$$hole bush.If you folow the news then you can see and notice it.Clinton was the one that wanted peace between them and he almost succeeded.But when bush became president it whent down hill whit the peace conference's becuase that A$$hole only cares about that damm missile shield that has no use. I think he messed up all the hadr work Clinton did.All though i am Dutch i think Cliton is the MAN!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Welcome back dude! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Pardon me for disagreeing. The fighting here started last fall; Clinton left office in late winter.
My personal opinon about Clinton is far from yours, but that's ok. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) I see him as someone who kept trying to force us (Israel) into giving up our land, our strategic positions (Golan Heights), etc etc.
At the moment, not many people here appreciate what Barak did in the name of "peace" - offering Arafat nearly everything. However, in hindsight, there was some good that came out of it all: it proved to the world (at least to anyone who cared to open his/her eyes and see) that Arafat wants neither land nor peace.
Let's be realistic here: Islam does not tolerate Jews. Therefore Muslims will stop at nothing to try and wipe us off the map. And in a way, I don't blame them. I mean hey, if I had been brought up like they are, I would probably be doing the same thing. :-/
In short, no matter how much they may scream about their "holy land", etc - it ain't about the land. It's about the people. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Originally posted by Mad Bomber:
In resorting to violence, the Palestinians give themselves a bad image, as do the Israelis by retaliating with such force. Things aren't going to get better there until cooler heads prevail. Unfortunately, at this rate many of those cool heads will have bullets in them. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
International image is always smeared when violence is used. Or is it? Allow me to quote a bit of my parents newsletter:
The world pressures Israel to respond in a "restrained" way. What would the US do if mortars landed on her cities? What would EU nations do if anti-tank fire was directed at their army bases?
The US State Dept often evidences an anti-Israel bias. When the UN Security Council last Oct. condemned Israel for the use of "excessive force", the US’s UN Ambassador criticised the resolution. But the State Dept’s recent human rights report says Israel did use excessive force.
Why the contradiction? Perhaps because of the following incident highlighted in a Jerusalem Post editorial, "…Sept 9, 1993, UN soldiers manning a combat bulldozer were attacked by a crowd of Somali militiamen and civilians. The forces of peace and enlightenment quickly responded with Cobra helicopters…Within minutes, almost 100 of the attackers, most of them civilians, were dead.
"US Army Maj Stockwell…spokesman for the UN force, explained the high civilian casualties thus: ‘Everyone…in the vicinity was a combatant, because they meant to do us harm.’ The silence from the international community was deafening.
"Weeks later, following clashes in which US troops killed hundreds more…a US Army spokesman explained: ‘…{Somali gunmen} frequently used women and children…to protect them{selves}… It is they who initiated the firefight and who bear ultimate responsibility for this tragic loss of life’…
The JP notes, "…the standard applied to Israel has no relation to that adopted by the UN and US in a similar situation…{i.e.,} that fundamental responsibility of the aggressor for casualties on both sides that was self-evident to the UN and US in Somalia is completely absent in…Palestinian attacks against Israel…"
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Good point. But, Islam used to be more tolerant than Christianity. Hell, we waged more holy wars than they ever did!
Islam in general is fairly tolerant of other beliefs, or at least monotheistic ones. Some jackass was just pissed that the UN took his land away and gave it to the Israelis, so he used the jihad as an excuse to get more people onto his side, in the hopes that someday his land would be out of Jewish hands. So whoever started the damn thing wasn't very tolerant but the religion in general is. Or at least was.
my point is that they resent that the land of Israel (plus gaza, WB, GH) is in the hands of non-Arabs at all. They rejected the original plan in 1948, where the Israelis would only get maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of what they have now, not counting the WB or GH. They felt it was an all or nothing deal.
Now it's different: Egypt doesn't want a war, Syria doesn't want a war, Saudi Arabia is an ardent US ally so they definitely don't want to piss us off by attacking Israel, Jordan doesn't want a war, and since Lebanon is basically controlled by the Syrians they don't want a war either. Oh yeah and Turkey... they're our NATO allies so they don't want a war either.
The only wild card is Iraq. An Israeli-Iraqi conflict could happen (and personally i foresee it at some point in the semi-near future).
<< MAD'S >>
<< PREDICTION >>
Iraq will attack through Syria and win over it, taking Damascus on the way and using it as a major base of operations for attacks on Northern Israel. That way they don't have to attack Saudi Arabia and piss the USA off further.
They will then attack northern Israeli cities, probably using some troops conscripted from Syria along with their normal troops, and probably attacking through Lebanon.
USA (and probably other nations too) would come in on Israel's side. In the meantime the Israeli armies, in a superior defensive position at the Golan Heights, as well as in southern Lebanon, would tear the crap out of Hussein's units.
Thus, Israel, whether US help gets there in time or not, would end up winning that war.
If it turns out i'm right you all owe me $20 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Mad Bomber (edited 08-24-2001).]
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Mad Bomber, I agree that the most likely nation to start a war with Israel is Iraq. However, I think that Syria and Iran are both primary threats as well.
Let's just hope nobody has to pay you. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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mm two things:
1) Why Iran? They're becoming more moderate by the day. Besides if they did want to fight Israel they'd have to be willing to ally with Iraq, and the two are not very friendly with one another, especially since Iraq ended up killing a large chunk of Iran's population in the Iran-Iraq war of the '80s.
2) The only reason Syria would want to have a war is because of the Golan heights. And we all know that Israel's military is far superior to that of Syria.
I know that when Israel offered about 95% of the Golan heights back to Syria they refused, but Assad had to refuse. Otherwise some extremist might have seen it as a sign of weakness and assassinated him. Assad knows a war with Israel is suicide, both militarily and politically. I seriously doubt he would do anything like that, unless Iraq and Syria became very close allies; even that is unlikely since Assad knows that Saddam would just end up conquering Syria in the process if they did ally. "I'll send troops to 'protect' you" etc etc...
so basically IMO the only real military threat is Iraq.