Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: aipz on September 25, 2005, 12:06:00 pm
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Recently we've seen many projects aimed at enhancing the average GI's combat capabilities... eg. Infanterist der Zukunft,
Land Warrior or FELIN
What do youy think of them?
Are they practical or just a waste of money which could be spend on other purposes?
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Note that I've set the poll so that you can tick multiple answers...
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Well its definately worth it to the militaries of the world to try and invest in something a little more for the average footsolider.
If you look at the advancements in warfare from say the 1600's to present day you still essentially have guys on the ground with a rifle shooting at the enemy with their guys on the ground also with a rifle.
Plenty has changed in terms of the equipment but whats really important is that the sizes of armies are going down instead of up for the first time in quite a significant period of time. So what they want now is for the average person on the ground to have alot more flexibility, survivability, and firepower.
The key things that I see happening over the next few years are helmet mounted systems for displaying information, lightweight armor and combat gear...the XM-8 series of weapons is a prime example. Oh and also the digital pattern camo patterns...which incidentally is a partially Canadian invention and appeared first on Canadian Forces standard issue and special forces personnel. And it apparently works quite well...so you'll be seeing alot more of that sort of thing. I think the US army is slowly getting around to it.
As for the rest...I can see some sort of power assisted armor perhaps being used...but not giant walking mech like things.
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I think simply that mechs won't appear on the battlefield in the nearest future...The idea of such big, complex and easy to hit target is somewheat strange at least for me...
But the power armor concept itself isn't stupid... Of course the exoskeletons, lightweight alloys, climate control and power supply problems have to be solved first though :)
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Originally posted by aipz
I think simply that mechs won't appear on the battlefield in the nearest future...The idea of such big, complex and easy to hit target is somewheat strange at least for me...
But the power armor concept itself isn't stupid... Of course the exoskeletons, lightweight alloys, climate control and power supply problems have to be solved first though :)
Thats whats been said alot. Giant robots are great for anime and computer games because the visual aspect is fantastic and its something that you don't normally associate with modern armed conflict (so it pushes it into the future).
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Tracked robots are most likely to have a future IMO; although probably human controlled rather than AI based. Simply because training soldiers will inevitably be more expensive than manufacturing cannon-fodder at some point. Unfortunately, at that point it's likely that we'll also be using incredibly destructive conventional weapons, so it'd probably not lead to less deaths but more.
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True...
The same goes for some overgrown power armor which weights so much it could be a small APC...:lol:
In a RPG game called Cyberpunk 2020 there were nice rules on how much a Power Armor can weight or otherwise it could simply fell through the floor or the staircase... :nod:
The same goes for weapons which would be installed where the hand of the suit would be located... Miniguns and such things look cool there but the soldier could't do nothing which would require precise manipulation like changing the ammo for instance...;)
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It's not likely to be any one thing. Sure, the various top militaries are working on making the basic grunt a better soldier, through armour and weaponry as well as communications, but at the same time I believe that stuff like UAVs is likely to come to prominence and start being used more widely. The thing is that it never comes down to two advanced, mechanized armies fighting it out. They're not stupid. So it's very likely to remain a mismatch in technology which will require different tactics. You can equip a 20 year old with no previous training with an AK, RPG-7 and a cheap tactical vest and have him present a considerable threat underurban conditions. As opposed to spending tens of thousands of dollars and several years training the big bad Special Forces types who essentially do the same job but with the benefit of a great technological advantage (close air support, heavy mechanized units etc, air recon).
The US isn't necessarily doing it right. They like flashy, expensive crap that look good on paper, with names like Force Operator Tactical Initiative, but is just a waste of money compared to the payoff. Most countries, even the major power, can't afford that. So for a while yet, several decades at least, I think that a soldier is going to remain just some guy with a longish tube that shoots bits of metal. After that, who knows.
As for the XM-8, I'm not at all convinced that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. First of all, the army has been screwing around with that one for a while now, without doing anything serious to commit to the project. Secondly, it is after just another assault rifle. Whoop-de-doo, it look flashy. It's just a G36 with a cosmetic change. Sure, it's accurate, lightweight and doesn't jam, but it doesn't do anything that a $60 Kalashnikov with a scope can't. It's not revolutionary. Certainly not considerably better than other modern ARs.
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Well actually UK, Germany and France are currently introducting Land Warrior like systems within 2007-2012 and not in hundreds of units but thousands so that 1/3 of their army uses them SIC!
I've even read that China is developing a cheaper version using mainly lightweight modules and improved targeting units...
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Oh and, just cause it rocks, here's the Steyr AUG A3, newly unveiled. Awesome, no?
(http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0593_01.jpg)
(http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0601_01.jpg)
(http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0596_01.jpg)
(http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uploads/pics/G8HB0592_01.jpg)
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Steyr always looked nice...:)
Classic bullpup design using extensively artificial materials...
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Most of those ideas are viable. Robots are already being employed in some places. Weight reduction is a major concern on all infantry hardware development these days. Helmet mounted displays already exist to some degree. The only real question is when will these technologies be perfected, and when will the production be cheap enough to make it possible to equip every grunt on the field with them.
Well, chameleon cloth and true power armor are a bit further away, but not impossible with the current tech improvement curve looking the way it does.
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Example: on I 2005 the Bundestag decided that 94 mln USD will be spent on buying 196 sets of Infanterist der Zukunft sets v1
( the set is enough for one infantry squadron)
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Hmh... a battalion of soldiers equipped with lightweight power armors/exoskeletons with optical and radar invisibility. Give 'em assault weapons that can penetrate your normal tank armour and you've got some scary stuff deployed in the field.
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With infantry, it's always been a question of Offence vs Defence.
The thing is that these days we are seeing a complete saturation of the various 'types' of soldier. Once there were distinctive groups, Infantry, Projectile, Cavalry and Artillery being the main ones. That's no longer the case. The ease with which people can be trained to point a stick and pull a trigger means that now every member of infantry is also an 'archer' and, to a certain extent, artilleryman. And modern Warfare means that Aircraft etc have added a new dimension to the Battlefield.
Original Infantrymen where conscripts for the main part, so the emphasis was on Offence, not Defence, no-one cared if a few hundred villagers died as long as they took a few of the other guys with them. However, in the case of modern armies, with paid, voluntary soldiers, Defence is suddenly a question of public opinion. However, the quote 'Ah....Infantry....Poor bastards.' still stands true in Military thinking.
If these items do make it to the battlefield, I doubt your 'average' grunt will still carry much more than basic armour and a combined MGun/Grenade Launcher type thing, possibly in-helmet targetting linked to the gun, with special systems to prevent the unit being used by anyone else if the soldier is killed, to prevent the enemy getting their hands on them. These new innovations will be constricted to specialist units.
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These new innovations will be constricted to specialist units.
These innovations will be propably restricted to proffesional paid soldiers - first line units/ quick reaction forces and special forces...
The "grunts-conscripts" and National Guard/Home defence guys will have to wait a bit more...:nervous:
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RE: Steyr AUG A3
never really been a fan of older AUGs with there seemingly disproportional barrel...but damn, that thing is badass. I hope it becomes an airsoft gun!
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Originally posted by aipz
True...
The same goes for some overgrown power armor which weights so much it could be a small APC...:lol:
In a RPG game called Cyberpunk 2020 ...
I so need to run some CP2020 again... :D
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Future Fore Warrior is said to be in operation by 2020 (and in several battalions)
For those of you who don't know it it's allmost a asci-fi thing.
the outfit/armor would consist of several layers - a thermal layer that adapth to the outer temperature, a "power" lyaer that consists of a fiber that mimics muscles movments increasing the soldiers strenght by 30%., and a protective layer with properties that makes kevlar looks like a tissue paper.
the suit itself is filled with sensors and can tighten itself on arms/legs to prevent blood loss if someone is hit. It allso can distribute antibiotics or antitoxins in the body.
In addition to that the helmet is equippedwith a cammera and IR sensors and a powerfull computer. It's linked with any other such helmets of scout veichels and the data is calculated and displyed in real-time. If ayone from your team, or a scout drone, can seea enemy hidden somewhere he will be displayed on your helmet, thus making an ambush nigh impossible nad giving a soldier an excellent overview of hte battlefield.
Of course, the weaponry, like hte X-8 is highly flexibla nad adjustible... There are many other projects out there and I heard tales raging from power armors (big ones) to ultra-light miniguns with caseless ammo with a small enough recoil to be carried by a man...
Guess well have to wait and see...
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It would be kind of like Captain Power and the Soldiers of The Future!
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Interestingly, this hit Slashdot today:
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200509/kt2005092118400211960.htm
Will it shout KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE! on loudspeaker in pitched battle? ;)
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GOSU
^-^
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Future Fore Warrior is said to be in operation by 2020 (and in several battalions)
For those of you who don't know it it's allmost a asci-fi thing.
the outfit/armor would consist of several layers - a thermal layer that adapth to the outer temperature, a "power" lyaer that consists of a fiber that mimics muscles movments increasing the soldiers strenght by 30%., and a protective layer with properties that makes kevlar looks like a tissue paper.
the suit itself is filled with sensors and can tighten itself on arms/legs to prevent blood loss if someone is hit. It allso can distribute antibiotics or antitoxins in the body.
In addition to that the helmet is equippedwith a cammera and IR sensors and a powerfull computer. It's linked with any other such helmets of scout veichels and the data is calculated and displyed in real-time. If ayone from your team, or a scout drone, can seea enemy hidden somewhere he will be displayed on your helmet, thus making an ambush nigh impossible nad giving a soldier an excellent overview of hte battlefield.
Of course, the weaponry, like hte X-8 is highly flexibla nad adjustible... There are many other projects out there and I heard tales raging from power armors (big ones) to ultra-light miniguns with caseless ammo with a small enough recoil to be carried by a man...
Guess well have to wait and see...
Nah. Look, even if the US is able to field such equipment, and even if it comes into general use within the military, do you think any other country is rich enough and stupid enough to go for it? Half the countries of the world have trouble just feeding themselves. Sure, you have varying levels of technical sophistication and ability, but most soldiers are and will remain in the forseeabe future just a guy with a gun. Keep in mind that if the US is able to afford all the stuff you mentioned, which is not at all certain, they are able to do so because they spend upwards of $500 billion a year on military expenditures. Their next closest rivals, places like China and West European countries, spend about 1/10th of that. Quite simply, the vast majority of countries, even rich industrialized ones like Germany and Britain, can't afford it.
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They will don't field Future force Warrior like systems...
but definetly Land Warrior like ones...
Infanterist der Zukunft - Germany from 2005 - 2007 v1
from 2008 - ? v2
FELIN - France from 2006 - 2012
FIST - don't know from when, but UK will propably
order 20-30 thousand ;)
Comabatiente Futuro -Spain from 2010 propably 10 thousand
China - less sophisticated one (targeting suite
actually)????
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even rich industrialized ones like Germany and Britain, can't afford it.
The EU probably could if they REALLY wanted to, but why bother? It's not like the Russians are going to invade them or anything.
But I just wonder how long it will be before we have Smartguns, Pulse Rifles, and sonic electronic ballbreakers........
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Originally posted by Rictor
As for the XM-8, I'm not at all convinced that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. First of all, the army has been screwing around with that one for a while now, without doing anything serious to commit to the project. Secondly, it is after just another assault rifle. Whoop-de-doo, it look flashy. It's just a G36 with a cosmetic change. Sure, it's accurate, lightweight and doesn't jam, but it doesn't do anything that a $60 Kalashnikov with a scope can't. It's not revolutionary. Certainly not considerably better than other modern ARs.
In terms of other armies its not a big deal but for the U.S. Army, should they finally deploy this thing, will finally have a weapon that is accurate, reliable, and extremely capable.
The M16 was good...a very good weapon indeed but it has its shortcomings. The M4 was a great weapon on paper (and I like the looks) but its turned out to be not nearly as good as it should be in operation. Lots of problems experienced using the weapon in Iraq and Afganistan.
With a weapon based on the G36 design they now have a pretty good and solid weapon to use. The G36 is widely regarded at the moment as being amongst the most reliable and powerful 5.56mm NATO rifles available.
You are right...a $60 Kalishnikov is probably just as effective in many ways.
On the other hand, the neat thing with the M8 series is that its supposed to be something like 90% interchangable. So you have a series of weapons but with common replacement parts.