Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The FRED Workshop => Topic started by: Singh on October 01, 2005, 03:08:37 am
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Well, since I have a bit of free time coming up (ROD Loh!) I've decided to take up a bold new project: replacing all the old nebula backgrounds in the main FS2 campiagn.
I intend to go through each mission and replace all the neb. backgrounds, starting with Surrender Belisarius! Thing is, while I've got hte missions open, I was also hoping to go through them and fix all the bugs that :v: accidentally let through.
The problem, however, is that I don't know all the bugs that are present in the campaign, so if anyone can list them here, it would be deeply appreciated.
:)
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In Dunquerke (The mission where you defend 3rd Fleet HQ) all the numbers for the bombers given by command are two higher than those that actually jump in.
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Wouldn't that require a voice acting fix too though (or adding extra bombers at the rist of unbalancing the mission)?
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Originally posted by karajorma
Wouldn't that require a voice acting fix too though (or adding extra bombers at the rist of unbalancing the mission)?
Hmmm....although, one has to say that adding extra bombers shouldn't be a problem if the AI for those two bombers were reduced severely. The AI is so stupid at it's lowest levels, its like them not being there at all. Similarly, taking down the AI of the rest of the bombers in the wing a notch will more than balance it i'd think....
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Letting the Colossus fire back in Their Finest Hour.. It's not like he's goba win anway, but it jsut standing there and getting pounded looks dumb. If it's to be a heroic death them they should die fighting.
That siad the Colossus should no be disabled and it should have no orders set (I think it has waypoints set).
you could allso adda corvette or two in the mission with Admiral Kolth. I found it redicolous that the rebel fleet consists of an orion. It's not like hte collie will have trouble with 2 corvettes.
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I'm think, wouldn't hurt if you guys may remake the main campaign. Change some things around the campaign, or add few more mission to it...........just a suggestion!
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I think that is what the FreeSpace Upgrade Project (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18737.0.html) is doing, but I have been wrong about this before.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
you could allso adda corvette or two in the mission with Admiral Kolth. I found it redicolous that the rebel fleet consists of an orion. It's not like hte collie will have trouble with 2 corvettes.
This is a bugfix, not a rewrite.
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Hey, replace that Cain in the nebula with a Lilith like it was suposed to be. I would love to see those Deimos saying "lets show these Great War relics what true firepower is", while they are getting they butts kicked off by it's LRed.:p
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In 'Their Finest Hour' when the Colossus says that "Delta wings heavy bombers are now at your disposal', the head Ani is that of command.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
This is a bugfix, not a rewrite.
Why not fix some story/belivability inconsistencies while you're at it?
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Why not fix some story/belivability inconsistencies while you're at it?
Because we don't want to butcher what :v: created, that's why. :p I think minor bugfixes are all right, but anything that really changes how a mission plays should be left alone. I mean, any person can do whatever they want to the campaign, so long as it's not included in the Media VPs or "officialized" in any other way. And I can't really think of any major inconsistencies throughout the campaign, anyway. It's true that "Their Finest Hour" is a little strange, but it really doesn't make that big of a difference overall.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
The upgraded nebulae are no different than HTL ships or hi-res textures; they improve the visual aspect of the game without changing how it runs in any way. The reason I'm always so wary when someone talks about bugfixing the FS2 campaign is because I consider it to be the best singleplayer gaming experience I've ever had; it's the same light in which I view the Descent multiplayer experience. I've always thought that, in most cases, how a game plays is infinitely more important than how it looks. However, since I already loved FS2's gameplay so much, I've seen the graphical improvements that the SCP has managed to pull off as just icing on the cake; they add a ton of spice and flair to the game without impacting the same amazing experience I had the first time I played through it. That's why I think that, if there is any bugfixing to be done, it has to proceed very carefully, and it should only change what :v: had there in the first place if absolutely necessary.
This is what I intend to do primarily. The main goal is to upgrade the mission nebula, with secondary being bugfixing. I'm not doing anything major like changing ship classes or adding ships unless absolutely necessary (i.e. its stated 6 arrived but only 4 are present, or in the case of the lilith being a cain) and then also steps will be taken to preserve the original mission balance (eg. making the AI Dumber in some cases or downgrading/locking weapons in others).
Btw, hte first mission nebula are almost done. Do you guys want a mission-by-mission release or one full pack? Either way is possible (but I will put up pics anyway)
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Originally posted by TrashMan
If it doesn't make a big difference 8gameply wise) what'+s the problem?
a extra corvette in the Kolth mssion that jump in at the other side of hte Repulse would make no difference to the missioin - the Collie would blast it to bits in seconds
And the collie actualyl shooting at hte Sath would allso change nothing. It can't win anyway.
The Colossus should shoot at the Sathanas. It did in Retail, and I'm actually not sure why it doesn't now. But I know it does, because I can distinctly remember it firing its beams while in deathroll the first time I played the main campaign. But then "Their Finest Hour" is a REALLY screwed up mission from start to finish anyway, and a lot of things (like the Colossus being disabled) were done because the :v: mission guys couldn't get the desired behavior out of basically anything the first couple of times through. I mean, it's got a hard-coded hack (if (ship_name == "SD Beast" && mission_name == "Their Finest Hour") {break AI} or something to that effect) just to get it to sort of work right. Truth be told, for that one mission (and that one mission only) I would not mind seeing a complete re-write, simply because none of it makes any sense. But everything else, and most especially ship numbers (names too if they are used in voice, though if they aren't and are incoherent they could be changed) should absolutely be left alone.
And if you EVER change a Cain to a Lilith, change the armament to match the Cain. That way you can have the class match but won't break balance much. Or better yet, just use the cain with an alternate name field (which would be completely invisible if the models had not been differentiated)
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Should the "fleet" in their finest hour have been beam freed?
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They are. Check the mission. Like I said, "Their Finest Hour" is all kinds of broken. I've been meaning to play through it in Retail and compile a list of just how much of it's stupid has been caused by SCP changes and how much is "supposed" to be broken.
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Just redo the whole mission, it's preety stupid to have the collie way out on it's own doing nothing anyways.
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Originally posted by StratComm
And if you EVER change a Cain to a Lilith, change the armament to match the Cain. That way you can have the class match but won't break balance much. Or better yet, just use the cain with an alternate name field (which would be completely invisible if the models had not been differentiated)
I agree, but you know it would be fun watching the Lilith open up on those stupid corvettes.:p
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Originally posted by FireCrack
Just redo the whole mission, it's preety stupid to have the collie way out on it's own doing nothing anyways.
I always figured the whole mission was intended just to bait the player into getting stuck in, taking a load of damage therefore making the following mission harder.
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I split off all the rewriting stuff into it's own thread. Singh has said that he's not rewring [V] missions so post bugs that need fixing not missions that need major or minor rewrites here.
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Thanks Karajoma. I would like to re-iterate again that this i intend to only HTL-ize the retail nebula patterns and do a little bugfixing.
Although re-writing missions seems good, I try to avoid it for 2 reasons:
1. Lack of time
2. :v: made it that way; and surprisingly, their might just be a reason as to why it's like that.
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also, a small update.
Mission 1 nebula upgrading is done and completed. I can't play through and take screenshots atm, since I've got a rendering going on in the background. I'll put up some shots tomorrow :)
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Here we go. I've preserved all the original patterns as best as I could. It's come out a tad....uglier than I am satisfied with, but im not sure whether going with an entirely new pattern of colors would be better, since I wanted to preserve the original image that :v: wished to potray. If one looks carefully enough - in this case it is of a serpent or eastern dragon coiling itself around the planet of Deneb.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-5.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-6.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-7.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/anandraj/sm1-8.jpg)
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IMHO you don't need to follow :v:'s patterns, as they're not very pretty anyway. Just follow your own sense of aestethics.
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Yeah. I was kind of disappointed when I saw that you'd done that Singh.
The backgrounds you do are much prettier than :v:'s anyway so why not simply concentrate on making everything just simply look the best it can?
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What kara said. The nebula backgrounds from :v: are so generic that they'll be impossible to make look good. Use lightspeed's neb packs the way they were meant to be used.
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The reason is that even the Nebulae seem to have distinct and unique patterns for each mission and are hardly generic. Although they are plain looking, they are works of art in their own right. read my observations on the nebula - its suprising nobody ever picked up on the serpent/dragon shape, despite it being definately there. Like mission names and elements, I fear that changing stuff will take out something that :v: meant to be there for a reason.
I have no right to replace that; regardless of how much I may want to. At most, I can change the colors and sort of 'refilter' it through the new nebs, but I don't think it would be acceptable at all to create all-new ones.
However, if you really wish, then I'll see what I can do.
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REalisticly speaking, when looking at a nebula far away from Earth or form Venus, you ain't gonna notice much difference...if any.
The distance to the nebulas are far too great for any Point of View changes 8within the system) are practicly meaningless.
That said, all my mission that take place inside the same system share the same nebula background, with only a few tweaeks here and there (mainly the sun size and position and planet size and position)
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I never saw the backgrounds like that before. Good eye, Singh. :)
I agree to keep the nebulae positioned the way they were, and for the above reasons that Singh gave. Who knows what other little nebular trick V added in?
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Ok, having thought over it, I realize that in a sense what you all have said is correct. New nebulae would be better; especially in the sense that if someone wished to see the old patterns, they simply would have to switch over to the old missions. While :v: did leave a pattern, I just realized that by upgrading everything, even if its just a post-filter sort of a thing, it'd still be ruining that pattern, which is something I'd rather avoid.
So, instead, it's now an all-or-nothing scenario from the looks of it. I'm headed to Maylasia for the next few days. But once I return, i'll get back to work on this ASAP.
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Here's another bug to consider: Someone in General Freespace just brought up the fact that Snipes can be killed in the second mission of the first SOC loop, "Love the Treason." Not only does that not make sense given the fact that you have to rescue and fly with him in the second loop, but his dialogue also forms an important part of the mission. If he is killed, other ships start talking to no one in particular. :p I remember initially replaying this mission a few dozen times until I finally got Snipes through it; I knew that his death wouldn't cause a mission failure, but I just wanted to hear the rest of his dialogue. I don't think that adding a ship-guardian flag to his fighter would be considered changing canon; if anything, I'd consider it adhering to canon, since he is supposed to survive. I'm guessing that :v: simply forgot to put the guardian flag in there on that mission. What does everyone else think?
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ship-guardian or mission failure would make sense to me.
Could be that :V: found that in certain cases it was difficult to keep Snipes alive, but ships-guardian made it too easy, something to look closely into before changing that particular thing.
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Am I the only person who has never lost Snipes? :nervous:
I think that was more a matter of one mission designer doing things one way (when hull < X, ship-invulnerable on Beta 1) versus the other (ship-guardian), especially since fighters have that nasty tendency to be able to die in a single game cycle. It's worth investigating, but I don't see how making him invulnerable would make things any more difficult than ship-guardian.
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I can't remember Snipes ever dying, but I doubt I've played that level on anything higher than Medium or Hard.
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I used the term ship-guardian, but to tell you the truth, as a non-FREDder, I don't really know what sets that apart from ship-invulnerable. What I was going for was FRED's version of "don't-let-him-die." :p
I just always seemed to have problems with losing Snipes. It usually wasn't during the fight with the remnants of the sabotaged fighters; I was always able to take them out quickly enough for them to have little impact on him. Where I always ran into trouble was when the second wing of Hercs arrived, feigned friendly for a minute or so, and then attacked you. I eventually found that ordering Snipes to cover you usually managed to keep him out of trouble for the rest of the mission. In any case, my original point was that Snipes really shouldn't be able to die in that mission, so whatever method of preventing that works best would be what I would suggest. Like I said, I really don't think that :v: intended for him to die during that mission, since he has a lot of dialogue and has to appear in later missions (and even that mission's debriefing, for that matter; it cracked me up how he always seemed to magically come back to life to debrief you :p).
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From the FAQ
What is the difference between Ship-Invulnerable and Ship-Guardian?
Ship-Invulnerable means that a ship can't be damaged by anything. No matter what happens the ship will remain at 100% (or whatever the damage was when it was at when the SEXP triggered). Ship-Guardian allows a ship to take damage until the ship reaches 1%. After that the ship becomes invulnerable. Careful use of both can fool the player and prevent him from realising that the ship is protected (A wing of ships at 100% at the end of a mission is a big sign that Ship-Invulnerable was used while a wing at 1% is just as obviously a sign of Ship-Guardian's use. )
For a non-FREDder you've pretty much got the right answer Mongoose. The mission does require a ship-guardian on Snipes to prevent him being killed. It's pretty obvious that [V] didn't want snipes to die as evidenced by
1) The fact that they invulnerable him at a certain number of hitpoints.
2) They never vulnerable him again
3) There is no debrief covering Snipes being killed.
Simply adding a ship-guardian to Snipes should definately be a part of this bug fix. It would act as a safety net for the times when the invulnerable SEXP didn't kick in fast enough.
(Incidentally there is actually an event that can make Snipes vulnerable again but it can never trigger. The Mission has about 3 events in a loop where event 1 requires the arrival of a Centaur supply ship and event 3 which is dependant on event 1 being true triggers the arrival of said ship)
BTW all the event names refer to Snipes as Bond. James Bond perhaps? :D
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The thing with ship guardian is it becomes obvious and so there is no reason to try and protect him. Not a major issue for this mission, but it does look a bit dodgy.
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The High Noon mission's debriefings are weird, look into it.
In Love the Treason, there are spelling mistakes: I remember that Regulus is spelt as Regulas and hijack is as high jack. Fix them.
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Simply adding a Guardian from the very start of the mission wouldn't do that. The invulnerability would kick in at around 47% IIRC and you wouldn't notice that he was protected most of the time.
You'd only spot it in those occassions where Snipes would otherwise have been killed too quickly to let it kick in and if you use a Guardian threshold equal to one less than the number for invulnerability you wouldn't even notice the effect then.