Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The FRED Workshop => Topic started by: TrashMan on October 02, 2005, 05:08:33 pm
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If it doesn't make a big difference 8gameply wise) what'+s the problem?
a extra corvette in the Kolth mssion that jump in at the other side of hte Repulse would make no difference to the missioin - the Collie would blast it to bits in seconds
And the collie actualyl shooting at hte Sath would allso change nothing. It can't win anyway.
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Things like adding ships to a mission that aren't supposed to be there qualify as major changes, at least in my opinion. It doesn't matter if the Colossus would be able to easily finish it off; the fact remains that the ship doesn't belong there in the first place. Plus, having the Colossus fire on a corvette might change how it attacks Koth's ship, which would throw off the timing of the entire mission. As for the Colossus shooting at the Sathanas, I thought that I've seen it fire off a shot or two when I've played the mission in the past. You are right about that one, though; it wouldn't really be changing anything at all. The change isn't really necessary, though.
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Neither are the nebulas as well when you look at it like that...
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Nebulae don't throw off mission balance.
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The upgraded nebulae are no different than HTL ships or hi-res textures; they improve the visual aspect of the game without changing how it runs in any way. The reason I'm always so wary when someone talks about bugfixing the FS2 campaign is because I consider it to be the best singleplayer gaming experience I've ever had; it's the same light in which I view the Descent multiplayer experience. I've always thought that, in most cases, how a game plays is infinitely more important than how it looks. However, since I already loved FS2's gameplay so much, I've seen the graphical improvements that the SCP has managed to pull off as just icing on the cake; they add a ton of spice and flair to the game without impacting the same amazing experience I had the first time I played through it. That's why I think that, if there is any bugfixing to be done, it has to proceed very carefully, and it should only change what :v: had there in the first place if absolutely necessary.
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Originally posted by Fenrir
Nebulae don't throw off mission balance.
Neither does a corvette beoing blown up away from the player. It's moe a cosmetic thing than a balance issue..
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It's also not mentioned by any of the in game messages or by the debirefing. How realistic is that?
Singh has said he's not doing it. Give it up. Or just open FRED and make all the changes you want to his mission once he releases it.
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Originally posted by FireCrack
Just redo the whole mission, it's preety stupid to have the collie way out on it's own doing nothing anyways.
I seem to remember the mandate of the SCP being to better the look and gameplay of FS2, but never stuff around with :v:'s stuff; ie. Missions, Basic models, ...etcetera...
Fixing up a mission to eliminate bugs/typos/etc. is all well and good, but when you start rebuilding a mission from scratch, you get the sudden urge to 'make it better', which of course is all based on your opinion. You then end up with a mission nothing like the :v: original, and have broken the mandate of the SCP...
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Originally posted by karajorma
It's also not mentioned by any of the in game messages or by the debirefing. How realistic is that?
Teh term "Rebel Fleet" has been said several times now.
"We hope the rebels will capitalize their advantage and sortie their fleet."
Since when does a single destroyer count as a fleet?
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You know guys, i have to say i agree with Trashman on this one. If we can add these lil things without braking the balance, why not?
As he said in the end it will come down to being cosmetic, im sure with the use of flags and scp trickery it can all be done.
I think i would make it more believable, its not exactly going to destroy the way the mission plays is it? Just that bit of extra gloss and imerssion.
Hell ... lurks off to FSU Forum.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Teh term "Rebel Fleet" has been said several times now.
"We hope the rebels will capitalize their advantage and sortie their fleet."
Since when does a single destroyer count as a fleet?
Since Volition decided it did.
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Plus the fact that sending in an orion AND corvettes to deal with one damaged cruiser is ridiculous.
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"We hope the rebels will capitalize their advantage and sortie their fleet."
Never said they would. They just hoped they would. Koth proved them wrong by only sending in the Repulse.
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As far as I see it, this isn't SCP. This is singh's bugfix of the retail campaign. So he can do whatever he damn well pleases with it. I personally think some plausability/suspension of disbelief fixes would be nice, but if the goal is to fix the main camp, I'd accept just bugfixes. It's been ages since I played FS2 anyways.
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Originally posted by Sheepy
You know guys, i have to say i agree with Trashman on this one. If we can add these lil things without braking the balance, why not?
As he said in the end it will come down to being cosmetic, im sure with the use of flags and scp trickery it can all be done.
I think i would make it more believable, its not exactly going to destroy the way the mission plays is it? Just that bit of extra gloss and imerssion.
Hell ... lurks off to FSU Forum.
That's just it, adding ships, regardless of where they are in the mission (unless they're off in the distance so far you, or any mission-critical ships around you, or anything story-centric like the Colossus, cannot interact with them) breaks mission balance. Sure, the missions can be re-balanced, but they are still not balanced the same as the :v: version was. A place adding additional ships may fit would be Apocalypse, where the cutscene shows a Hatshepsut and some other ships fighting off in the distance right before the supernova hits; if they were far enough away to not interfere with the mission IN ANY WAY (i.e. your fighters, enemy fighters, your capships, enemy capships, and within reason the player have no way of interacting with any of them) then it might be ok. But putting extra ships in missions where the player or important ships might interact with them, and where the only precident is someone's opinion on what should be there in his mind, is very much out of line for a bugfix. It is Singh's baby and he is free to do what he wants with it, but I'd love to have a main campaign with proper backgrounds that lets me play it as :v: wrote it and that seems to be what he's aiming for. And I think he's dismissed the extra ships argument anyway, so PLEASE drop it.
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I agree. Any further comments on the matter will be pruned.
As will be any puns based on the word prune. :D
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Originally posted by StratComm
That's just it, adding ships, regardless of where they are in the mission (unless they're off in the distance so far you, or any mission-critical ships around you, or anything story-centric like the Colossus, cannot interact with them) breaks mission balance. Sure, the missions can be re-balanced, but they are still not balanced the same as the :v: version was.
Oh please? What do you think the Collie would do to a Corvette far off to the Repulses right (away from the player and other mission ships)? Pulverize it in one-two shots of course. Possibly with his side beam cannons. Even if he uses one of his more forward ones, you realyl think the Repulse coudl win? Heck, this might reduce the Collies hull at the end of the mission by 2-3%.
BIG DEAL
(I know, I allredy did such change once..heck you can throw in several cruisers too it changes nothing for the player..)
Anyway, most of hte guys here are allways complaining that the colle sucked and was never presented propely. So present it allready then...
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It doesn't matter. It wasn't there and there's no convincing reason to add it besides inconsistant voicing for the mission. Let it be inconsistant. In mission, all we know is there from voice-over is the Repulse. It doesn't need to be fixed.
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Hmm, i know what your saying strat, and bare in mind this is coming from some one who has no modding experience what so ever. I was mearly put forward that Trashmans idea has some merit, be it for this little project or some other complete overhaul.
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Originally posted by StratComm
It doesn't matter. It wasn't there and there's no convincing reason to add it besides inconsistant voicing for the mission. Let it be inconsistant. In mission, all we know is there from voice-over is the Repulse. It doesn't need to be fixed.
"The Repulse has arrived. The big fish has devoured the bait! Now sending in the Colossus!"
The Repulse is the main target as hte admiral is there - the brainz of the NTF forces in this sector, so of course it's mentioned. A collie wouldn't have a problem with a few lighter vessels in tow.
Just couse command doesn't specificly account every single fighter and cruiser that pops in front of you doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. After all, you all (pilots) can see them coming.
Besides, being caught up in the moment of the Repulses arrival and ordering the springing of a trap, anouncing the name of acompanying corvette or cruiser to the player isn't really a prority anyway...
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but technically is how it would be done, in military comm terms.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
"The Repulse has arrived. The big fish has devoured the bait! Now sending in the Colossus!"
The Repulse is the main target as hte admiral is there - the brainz of the NTF forces in this sector, so of course it's mentioned. A collie wouldn't have a problem with a few lighter vessels in tow.
Just couse command doesn't specificly account every single fighter and cruiser that pops in front of you doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. After all, you all (pilots) can see them coming.
Besides, being caught up in the moment of the Repulses arrival and ordering the springing of a trap, anouncing the name of acompanying corvette or cruiser to the player isn't really a prority anyway...
Good way to rationalize it, but it's still BS. Command has a tendency to announce when things arrive ("Incoming jump signature. Hostile configuration.") even if that's just a fighter or two. Command also has a precedent (if no ships in the field of battle do) to at least mention every hostile ship that enters the mission, even if one is relatively minor compared to the other (see King's Gambit). Or at least command would have said something like "The Repulse has jumped in with escorts, we're sending in the Colossus." (emphesis mine). Without meeting at least one of those criteria, there's no excuse to go adding another ship to a retail mission.
And thanks to whomever split this off. It never belonged in that other thread to begin with :)
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I really don't see the point.
If it's not going to change things for the player, not going to do anything significant, just going to use up extra memory for the textures for all of the mission, jump in, and then explode, why should it even be in there?
IMHO it doesn't work well within the story. An Orion can easily handle two Leviathans; if it's a trap then it can always call for reinforcements (Assuming they'll actually be able to help.)
It also totally goes against the ships that the NTF uses. There are no Hecates, and only a couple Deimos corvettes, IIRC (Including the Belisarius). Obviously Volition wanted to make the point that the NTF is less well-equipped...throwing in an extra corvette would not help with that.
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Command doesn'rt allways mention incoming ships or fighters. Very often other pilots inform you of it (wings and capships) while command stays silent.
besides, there is no need for two mesages if a cruiser/corvette jumps in with the Repulse (at the same time, not before or after)
Even if you wnated to put it in, you could simply use a generic fighter message ("Incoming hostiles" or something).
And the NTF aren't really weak - their total military power is significant if they were able to hold off the GTVA for 18 months.
We don't know what ship it has in it's arsenal (it might have a ecate in there) and how many really. We do know what ships are most common though.
If it's not going to change things for the player, not going to do anything significant, just going to use up extra memory for the textures for all of the mission, jump in, and then explode, why should it even be in there?
Don't new nebulas and HTL ships do just that? Nothing except for eye candy at a memory/performance cost? Adding to the atmosphere or belivabiltiy ofa situation is not what I would call a waste.
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You just invalidated your entire argument. My whole point was that NONE OF THE DIALOGUE mentions other ships. Command be damned, no-one or nothing in that mission even remotely implies that Koth brought escorts. Adding them is flat out making things up.
EDIT: I just posted this in the Port forum, and it really fits well here.
Originally posted by StratComm
Briefings are supposed to be speculative for the player, not themselves a canonical source of every event that happens in the mission.
So don't change the mission based on what the briefing said, as that's not an accurate depiction of the events in mission anyway.
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Heh.. If you're happy with a flet consisting of a single destroyer then fine.
I'm not.
and hte dialoge thing is an excuse for not adding ship, not a real reason. Command doens't have to count every ship....
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As I remember it in the briefing it, or someware in the mission, it was said that there were other operations to lure the Repulse out, so the NTF might not have had any ships to send for escort.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Heh.. If you're happy with a flet consisting of a single destroyer then fine.
As I've already stated from the point of view of the NTF the enemy consisted of nothing more than a couple of enemy wings and a single damaged Leviathan.
And you think Koth should have scrambled the entire fleet to take it out? That's a real act of tactical genius. I suppose you'd use nuclear weapons to take out that spider in your bath too :rolleyes:
Hell sending in the NTF flagship to kill one cruiser is overkill. The GTVA must have been banking on knowledge of Koth's personality (for instance that he liked to kill enemy capships personally whenever possible or something)
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Originally posted by karajorma
And you think Koth should have scrambled the entire fleet to take it out? That's a real act of tactical genius. I suppose you'd use nuclear weapons to take out that spider in your bath too :rolleyes:
Hell sending in the NTF flagship to kill one cruiser is overkill. The GTVA must have been banking on knowledge of Koth's personality (for instance that he liked to kill enemy capships personally whenever possible or something)
A corvette or a cruiser would have been sufficent.. Or several fighter wings...Why endanger himself?
If he was such a tactical genius then he wouldn't have acted like he did - it had to be suspicios.
Allright - bottom point - there are reasons pro et contra to make small changes to the mission.
Do those reason justify it? I don't know. for me yes, for you maby no..
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Don't new nebulas and HTL ships do just that? Nothing except for eye candy at a memory/performance cost? Adding to the atmosphere or belivabiltiy ofa situation is not what I would call a waste.
But...why? An Orion is a fleet in and of itself; it carries several wings of fighters/bombers. It should be able to easily jump in, destroy the Leviathan, then jump out. It's tough enough that it could withstand any trap the GTVA could throw at it, long enough to escape.
Why would Koth bring in more ships - it'd simply weaken any strategic points in-system, and expose more of his assets to the GTVA than necessary. With subspace drives, it's better to let the other ship emerge, and then make a jump, as a ship can position itself in a better tactical position that way.
Edit: And maybe Koth didn't have a corvette at his disposal, which is why he didn't send one. :wtf: Like I said, Volition gave the NTF mostly older hardware. They seemed to be trying to give the impression that it wasn't as well-backed as the GTVA.
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Aside from bugs, nothing needs be changed. Ever.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
A corvette or a cruiser would have been sufficent.. Or several fighter wings...Why endanger himself?
If he was such a tactical genius then he wouldn't have acted like he did - it had to be suspicios.
Allright - bottom point - there are reasons pro et contra to make small changes to the mission.
Do those reason justify it? I don't know. for me yes, for you maby no..
Where do the fighter wings come from? A destroyer, namely the repulse. Sending in several fighter wings (remember, he deployed only a few wings) would mean massive casualties, especially against a Leviathan class cruiser. Deploying a Corvette or another cruiser would also mean that there was a chance it would take serious damage, since Leviathans are not exactly easy targets - hell, it had managed to vape two cruisers already, wasting any more that were vital to blockading their areas would have been idiotic, to say the least. Plus it is also common sense - if you have a Juggernaught that is capable of vaping out an entire fleet in a single go, do you still send an entire fleet against it? No, you hide your assets, and let it chase nothing but shadows.
However, deploying his destroyer as well as the remaining fighters meant that he would minimize casualties as much as possible, since hte Destroyer alone could probably cripple or destroy it with a single barrage and then jump out, leaving the fighters to mop up what was left, if anything. The perfect solution.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
A corvette or a cruiser would have been sufficent.. Or several fighter wings...Why endanger himself?
If he was such a tactical genius then he wouldn't have acted like he did - it had to be suspicios.
That's a pretty poor line of argument. I didn't say that Koth was a tactical genius. In fact it's pretty likely that the reverse is true. Anyone who is willing to ram the Colossus with a smaller ship in order to kill it can't be claimed to be the biggest genius ever.
However an attitude of "There's an enemy leviathan, send everything we've got!" is even more ridiculous. Tactician or not he's risen to the rank of admiral and you don't do that by completely over reacting to the situation.
Koth knew the Colossus was in system. If he suspected a trap why would he bring corvettes which you admit the Colossus could kill in a few shots anyway? It's pretty obvious that Koth didn't know the Colossus was ready to jump in or he wouldn't have leaped in himself.
So since Koth was going after a single Leviathan in order to make a quick kill why the hell shouldn't he just leap in and wipe it out.
Not to mention the fact that Koth needed to get interceptors to the site quickly to prevent the destruction of two of his cruisers. Quickest way to do that is to leap in and launch the alert fighters, Not to co-ordinate some half-assed corvette rendezvous with the them.
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FS2 isn't really realistic about ramming Ya know.
When sometihng 2 km long chrashes into you, its' reactor core blowing up, you shouldn't survive. (needless to say I increased hte shokvawe damage alf all ships in my TBL)
That said we don't know how much Kolth knew about the Collie or even if it was within the system. And sending a whole fleet would be an overkill, but so is sending an Orion against a DAMAGED Leviathan (it fought before).
Besides, enemby bomber bugging out jsut when they were about to blow your cruiser out of the sky isn't realyl a sound tactical move. Kolth might have suspected a trap.
but in any case, simply sending a lot of fighters/bomber would have been better in any case - 4 wings attacking simontaniously is more then enough to bring down any cruiser fast and in case off a ambush the loses of 4 wings is nothing compared to 10000.
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I don't see how any of that is an argument in favour of Koth bringing in corvettes with him.
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It looks more like an arguement that the Repulse should be removed from the mission.
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If there's something I've learned from this thread it's that asking the community for permission to modify the main campaign is a really stupid idea. Release the missions as separate files and let the people who don't like it just not download it.
I can't believe these people can get this uptight. It could be worse, they could have no choice in the matter. You don't see people howling over the Half-Life 2 Substance mod which drastically modifies the storyline of Half-Life 2 (makes the Rebels fight the Combine WAY earlier). THEY understand that it is a mod, a reinterpretation.
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There's a difference between a reinterpretation and flat out saying that :v: got it wrong. Take a look at which one Trashman was doing.
Furthermore the real issue I have with this (as opposed to things like NTV etc) is that this make no damn sense in the first place for the reason myself and others have suggested.
Finally Trashman knows how to FRED. Why was he insisting that Singh make the changes he wanted to the campaign instead of doing it himself?
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Originally posted by Gregster2k
If there's something I've learned from this thread it's that asking the community for permission to modify the main campaign is a really stupid idea.
I have no problem with someone modifying the main FS2 campaign...if they want to air their opinion that a mission should be like that on forums that I have access to, then they should expect that some people might disagree.
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Originally posted by karajorma
There's a difference between a reinterpretation and flat out saying that :v: got it wrong. Take a look at which one Trashman was doing.
And it's not like this is a one-time occurance. Trashman has been trying to get us to accept his "vision" of Freespace for a long time. First time I saw it, he was trying to say that :v: screwed up by giving the Maxim a 2km range and that it should be changed.
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Keep in mind that throughout the Epsilon Pegasi missions, the Alliance keeps wasting NTF capital ship after NTF capital ship. I mean, the Cato and Hawkwood (or the Conquest, somehow) in the defense of Enif Station, and then the Rapier, Explorer, Maelstrom, Majestic, Refute, and NTD Normandy in other missions--Koth may not simply have had the luxury of carrying a fleet around with him. He had to use his resources sparingly, and sending his entire fleet to a single attack would have just been overboard. He was trapped, outnumbered, and obviously outgunned, and so he decided to go down in a blaze of glory and one final attempt to do some serious damage.
No real need to rewrite the missions. V had it figured out when they made it, and I think we can live with that. There are some glaring bugs, such as the Thutmose arriving instead of the Sopedu, or the Asuras being a Cain instead of a Llith, but they really are minor and don't drastically affect gameplay. Most of these bugfixes would require changing the voiceacting, and, unless you want to hire back the old voiceactors that performed the roles in the first place, I think we can be happy with a couple of bugs.
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If I wanted to kill a Leviathan quickly and there were bombers around an Orion with fighters is a better choice than a 'vette. Maybe it's the brief that givges the wrong impression, as the GTVA isn't hunting the fleet, just the Flagship.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Finally Trashman knows how to FRED. Why was he insisting that Singh make the changes he wanted to the campaign instead of doing it himself?
I'm not insisting on anything - I'm just expressing my oppinion