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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: ZmaN on October 04, 2005, 10:51:00 pm

Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: ZmaN on October 04, 2005, 10:51:00 pm
I have a couple questions about the lucy's shields...

1. Why weren't the lucifers shields unpenetrable?  the terrans and the vasudans have weapons that penetrate Shivan fighter shields, but why can't they penetrate the lucifers shields?

2.  Why didn't the Shivans use the shields on more ship other than the Lucifer?

3. Why didnt those types of shields have any mention in Freespace 2?

4. I was reading in the wiki that the lucifer had "what we call to 'beam turrets'... "  I never saw any beam turrets in Freepsace 1...  the only thing i recall of even being CLOSE to beam turrets is when the lucifer destroys one of the arcadia stations, and it shoots these missile lookin thingys out of its two front arms...  are those them?

5. why wasnt there even a Lucifer CLASS destroyer in FS2?

6. Is there anything else I should know about the Lucifer's Shields?
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: brozozo on October 04, 2005, 11:04:03 pm
I am pretty certain that there is a long thread devoted to the Lucifer on the board. You'll find answers there. Give it a search.
Title: Re: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Mefustae on October 04, 2005, 11:06:07 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ZmaN
I have a couple questions about the lucy's shields...

1. Why weren't the lucifers shields unpenetrable?  the terrans and the vasudans have weapons that penetrate Shivan fighter shields, but why can't they penetrate the lucifers shields?
That is never explained in Freespace 1 or 2...

2.  Why didn't the Shivans use the shields on more ship other than the Lucifer?
That is never explained in Freespace 1 or 2...

3. Why didnt those types of shields have any mention in Freespace 2?
What do we look like to you, :v:?...

4. I was reading in the wiki that the lucifer had "what we call to 'beam turrets'... "  I never saw any beam turrets in Freepsace 1...  the only thing i recall of even being CLOSE to beam turrets is when the lucifer destroys one of the arcadia stations, and it shoots these missile lookin thingys out of its two front arms...  are those them?
Those 'missile lookin[sic] thingys' that come out of the Lucifer are Beam Weapons, but as the engine was far more primitive than what we see in FS2, beams were presented in that way. As FS1 is a game from a far more primitive time of gaming, awesome effects like the Beam Weapons in FS2 just weren't possible with the technology of the time...

5. why wasnt there even a Lucifer CLASS destroyer in FS2?
That is never explained in Freespace 1 or 2...and anyway, what do you need with a Superdestroyer when you've got a Juggernaut...?

6. Is there anything else I should know about the Lucifer's Shields?
Not really, but to avoid flaming, use the Search tool, it's an amazing tool to those that take the time to use it


Honestly mate, the Seach is there for a reason. Please use it in the future rather than make threads about topics already discussed to the nth degree elsewhere..
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Galemp on October 04, 2005, 11:33:09 pm
Yeah, these things have been discussed ad nauseum here. :p

To be honest I always thought of the Lucifer as a unique ship, specifically designed to wipe out races at the subspace level of development, to demoralize them and eradicate them. It had special weapons, special shields, special reactors, special comms, everything; it's one of a kind. Remember that the Colossus was specifically designed to counter another Lucifer threat; what the GTVA got instead was a totally withering unimaginable Shivan force.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 05, 2005, 12:19:52 am
The Lucifer had the benefit of four reactors. That's gonna give a helluva lot more power than any pathetic little fighter engine. I doubt the Lucifer would survive a massive enough explosion, even with the shields up.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Galemp on October 05, 2005, 12:24:31 am
Five. Know your history. :D
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: StratComm on October 05, 2005, 12:26:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
The Lucifer had the benefit of four reactors. That's gonna give a helluva lot more power than any pathetic little fighter engine. I doubt the Lucifer would survive a massive enough explosion, even with the shields up.


Like, say, the explosion of a star? ;7
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Mefustae on October 05, 2005, 12:45:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Like, say, the explosion of a star? ;7
Hey, that's a pretty good idea; should the GTVA ever run into another Lucifer, they can just go ask Carter to blow up another sun...:p
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 05, 2005, 02:34:06 am
Or put it on a planet with Rodney.

I still find it funny that he accidentally blew up a planet.
Title: Re: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Luigi30 on October 05, 2005, 06:02:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by ZmaN
I have a couple questions about the lucy's shields...

1. Why weren't the lucifers shields unpenetrable?  the terrans and the vasudans have weapons that penetrate Shivan fighter shields, but why can't they penetrate the lucifers shields?

More reactors = more power. They absorbed enough to stop any damage?

2.  Why didn't the Shivans use the shields on more ship other than the Lucifer?

Too big? Once again, you're talking about 4 massive reactors, not a ship power plant.

3. Why didnt those types of shields have any mention in Freespace 2?

Uh...

4. I was reading in the wiki that the lucifer had "what we call to 'beam turrets'... "  I never saw any beam turrets in Freepsace 1...  the only thing i recall of even being CLOSE to beam turrets is when the lucifer destroys one of the arcadia stations, and it shoots these missile lookin thingys out of its two front arms...  are those them?

Yes. They're a special missile with an infinite trail and no engine glow.

5. why wasnt there even a Lucifer CLASS destroyer in FS2?

Maybe the Lucifer was a one-off ship like the Colossus, and the only one built.

6. Is there anything else I should know about the Lucifer's Shields?

You'll never damage a ship set to invincible ;)



Some speculation in there.
Title: Re: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: aldo_14 on October 05, 2005, 06:45:01 am
Quote
Originally posted by ZmaN
I have a couple questions about the lucy's shields...

1. Why weren't the lucifers shields unpenetrable?  the terrans and the vasudans have weapons that penetrate Shivan fighter shields, but why can't they penetrate the lucifers shields?

2.  Why didn't the Shivans use the shields on more ship other than the Lucifer?

3. Why didnt those types of shields have any mention in Freespace 2?

4. I was reading in the wiki that the lucifer had "what we call to 'beam turrets'... "  I never saw any beam turrets in Freepsace 1...  the only thing i recall of even being CLOSE to beam turrets is when the lucifer destroys one of the arcadia stations, and it shoots these missile lookin thingys out of its two front arms...  are those them?

5. why wasnt there even a Lucifer CLASS destroyer in FS2?

6. Is there anything else I should know about the Lucifer's Shields?


1/Unknown.  Probably power output; I'm sure one of the Volition staff has mentioned that the Lucifers shields were only impenetrable to FS1 era weaponry (I think Icefire said this).
2/Unknown.  Best guess would probably be power issues; the Lucifer had multiple reactors.
3/Unknown.  I'd guess they were simply outdated, as TV weaponry was now powerful enough to breach them.  It's unknown how or when the Shivans developed beam tech.  It's possible the FS1 fleet was a very old, or very primitive one compared to the rest of the Shivans at that time.
4/The Lucifers' 'beams' are, indeed, the missiles (flux cannon) it uses.  I think, again, the devs mentioned they wanted a better effect but couldn't make one.  The support for proper beams being on the Lucy is threefold - the beams in the FS2 table entry, the beam depicted in the vprime.ani (Destroying the city), and the beam seen in the FS2 intro.
5/ See 3.  No way to know; the Shivans could have had a fleet of them in reserve for all we can tell.  It's possible, too, that the FS1 Lucifer was the only existing one when destroyed - or that they had been retired and replaced by the Sathani (although the Saths seem to have at least some other purpose vis-a-vis the FS2 ending).  

My preferred guess is that the Lucifer was a special purpose type of ship used for obliterating civillisations, and it simply wasn't the right weapon for the Shivans to use in FS2 (as we - well, the NTF - came to them).  Essentially - and this chimes with galemp - that it was designed to use exceptional subspace abilities to infiltrate enemy lines, jumping behind blockades, etc, and destroying fleets lacking the technology to counter or defend against such an attack.
6/Lucifer shields were, apparently 'sheath shields'.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Mefustae on October 05, 2005, 07:07:45 am
Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Or put it on a planet with Rodney.

I still find it funny that he accidentally blew up a planet.
...Y'know, you just ruined an episode of Atlantis for me...you cannot fathom the depths of the hatred I now hold for you...
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Roanoke on October 05, 2005, 08:42:25 am
or maybe it was just a really dodgy story element....
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Nuclear1 on October 05, 2005, 11:48:02 am
Search for a thread called "Shivans, Beams, and the Great War". I'm pretty sure everything you're asking has been answered there.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: General Freak on October 05, 2005, 01:21:10 pm
Hmm, thanks. ;) It's funny that this topic is on top, however.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: ShadowWolf_IH on October 05, 2005, 07:45:45 pm
after much discussion with some of our prominent debaters of this sort of thing, i have a very viable answer....but you'll have to wait for Origins to come out to see it.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 05, 2005, 07:55:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mefustae
...Y'know, you just ruined an episode of Atlantis for me...you cannot fathom the depths of the hatred I now hold for you...


:nervous: *runs*
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: brozozo on October 06, 2005, 11:58:46 am
Quote
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
after much discussion with some of our prominent debaters of this sort of thing, i have a very viable answer....but you'll have to wait for Origins to come out to see it.


Origins? I'm guessing that is some kind of mod, right? Could you link me or give me some background information?

Too many question marks.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Charismatic on October 06, 2005, 08:36:34 pm
A FS2 campaing. U could search that also...

I was just thinking. NTF shows a big similarity to the HOL. With the fact that Shivans like Humans. Shivans raped the HOL, as the NTF became friends... or lunch. Eiher way.

I still remember to this day the Lucy had 5 reactors. (What other ships have reactors in FS2 btw?)
With that kind of power, vs. a T-V era cap with No reactors, the shields won. No way they could penetrate.

I think in FS- we would see a 2nd Lucy to spice things up. Well, id like to see one in the story. Lucy had to be old gen. Or a proto type (for the sun nova'ing Sathi's?).

We need to solve the mistery of the Sathi some day. Someone apply to work at :V: and 'dig around' the old files.
Hell, i wouldent mind trying in a few years:P
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: StratComm on October 06, 2005, 09:04:39 pm
The Rakshasa and Moloch have reactor subsystems, but that's more potential story-driven than effective.  Every ship has a reactor; it's what gives them power.

And the NTF and HOL had nothing in common.  The HOL welcomed the Shivan's role as destroyers, and actively sought to help them run the entire Vasudan race into oblivion.  The NTF (Bosch) wanted to ally with the shivans to preserve Humanity.  Different aims, different means.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 06, 2005, 09:08:54 pm
Charismatic: HAve you played Derelict? I think you would like it. ;)
Title: Re: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: IceFire on October 06, 2005, 09:57:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ZmaN
I have a couple questions about the lucy's shields...

1. Why weren't the lucifers shields unpenetrable?  the terrans and the vasudans have weapons that penetrate Shivan fighter shields, but why can't they penetrate the lucifers shields?

2.  Why didn't the Shivans use the shields on more ship other than the Lucifer?

3. Why didnt those types of shields have any mention in Freespace 2?

4. I was reading in the wiki that the lucifer had "what we call to 'beam turrets'... "  I never saw any beam turrets in Freepsace 1...  the only thing i recall of even being CLOSE to beam turrets is when the lucifer destroys one of the arcadia stations, and it shoots these missile lookin thingys out of its two front arms...  are those them?

5. why wasnt there even a Lucifer CLASS destroyer in FS2?

6. Is there anything else I should know about the Lucifer's Shields?

1) The Lucifers sheilds were impenetrable by conventional Terran and Vasudan weapons of the period.  Reason for this is the 5 reactor cores on the Lucifer (the ship was a big power generator) which gave it the ability to project shields around a large ship.

2) Apparently projecting shields around a large ship requires an exponential amount of power.  Therefore is was not practical to have all capital ships with large shield arrays.

3) Sheilds in general are fairly commonplace in FS2.  The Colossus was designed to beat the Lucifer.  Presumably the Colossus has more than enough firepower to break down the shields and destroy the Lucifer.  The GTVA seemed pretty confident about that...so its presumable that bombs like the Tsunami in FS1 dented but never truly brought down the Lucifers shields.

4) The FS1 engine didn't support beams.  So those "missile looking thingys" are the beams that you're talking about.  You also see this (albiet coming from the wrong spot) in the opening of FS2.

5) A total mystery.  Part of the story.  Presumably the Lucifer was a special type of ship that is not common in the Shivan fleet.

6) No not really.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: ZmaN on October 07, 2005, 10:11:36 am
thanks for your help guys!!!
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Charismatic on October 07, 2005, 09:44:14 pm
Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Charismatic: HAve you played Derelict? I think you would like it. ;)


WMC: No, iv had a very scratchy time with getting campaigns to work and d\l correctly (and fully, at that). Inferno and Dex Ex Maxima (sp?) and the BWO demo is all iv goten to work. I have d\l'ed many other ones they just are either incomplete files; dont work; or.. something. Don't show.

I wouldent mind help getting right files and setting it up btw..(Pm tho..)
Title: Re: Re: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Aquatayne on October 08, 2005, 02:20:57 am
Quote


Icefire
5) A total mystery.  Part of the story.  Presumably the Lucifer was a special type of ship that is not common in the Shivan fleet.

Aldo_14
5/ See 3. No way to know; the Shivans could have had a fleet of them in reserve for all we can tell. It's possible, too, that the FS1 Lucifer was the only existing one when destroyed - or that they had been retired and replaced by the Sathani (although the Saths seem to have at least some other purpose vis-a-vis the FS2 ending).

luigi30
Maybe the Lucifer was a one-off ship like the Colossus, and the only one built.

Mefustae
That is never explained in Freespace 1 or 2...and anyway, what do you need with a Superdestroyer when you've got a Juggernaut...?


perhaps the lucifer was a prototype of the sathanas. or like someone sed, it was a civilisation killer. (come to think of it, perhaps the lucy was responsible for the ancients extinction. oh well) oh sry i was talkin to myself
Title: Re: Re: Re: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: IceFire on October 08, 2005, 12:38:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Aquatayne


perhaps the lucifer was a prototype of the sathanas. or like someone sed, it was a civilisation killer. (come to think of it, perhaps the lucy was responsible for the ancients extinction. oh well) oh sry i was talkin to myself

There is some pure speculation that suggests that the group of Shivans in FS1 and the group of Shivans in FS2 were completely different groups.  Perhaps with different motivations and goals.

The FS2 Shivans obviously were not interested in the GTVA for any reason at all.  The Capella star was far more interesting to them...
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Cobra on October 10, 2005, 01:50:40 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Charismatic


No, iv had a very scratchy time with getting campaigns to work and d\l correctly (and fully, at that). Inferno and Dex Ex Maxima (sp?) and the BWO demo is all iv goten to work. I have d\l'ed many other ones they just are either incomplete files; dont work; or.. something. Don't show.

I wouldent mind help getting right files and setting it up btw..(Pm tho..)


um, dude, it's so easy even an 8-year-old can do it.

as for the downloading part, well, your service provider just sucks. ;)

EDIT: And before i forget...

Code: [Select]

$Name: SD Lucifer
$Short name: SSuperD
$Species: Shivan
+Tech Description:
XSTR(
"Removed for greater justice - Flipside", 3162)
$end_multi_text
$POF file: capital02.pof
$Detail distance: (0, 5000, 13000, 30000)
$Show damage: NO
$Density: 1
$Damp: 0.2
$Rotdamp: 1.5
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 15.0
$Rotation time: 200.0, 200.0, 200.0
$Rear Velocity: 0.0
$Forward accel: 20.0
$Forward decel: 10.0
$Slide accel: 0.0
$Slide decel: 0.0
$Expl inner rad: 100.0
$Expl outer rad: 4000.0
$Expl damage: 1000.0
$Expl blast: 4000.0
$Expl Propagates: YES ;;
$Shockwave Speed: 900.0 ;;
$Shockwave Count: 4
$Default PBanks: ()
$Default SBanks: ()
$SBank Capacity: ()
$Shields: 0
$Power Output: 100.0
$Max Oclk Speed: 24.0
$Max Weapon Eng: 100.0
$Hitpoints: 800000
$Flags: ( "capital" "big damage")
$AI Class: Captain
$Afterburner: NO
$Countermeasures: 0
$Scan time: 20000
$EngineSnd: 176 ;; Engine sound of ship
$Closeup_pos: 0.0, 0.0, -3440
$Closeup_zoom: 0.5
$Score: 1000
$Subsystem: turret01,1.0,6.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Sred" )
$Subsystem: turret02,1.0,6.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Sred" )
$Subsystem: turret03,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret04,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret05,0.5,0.5
    $Default SBanks: ( "FighterKiller" )
$Subsystem: turret06,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret07,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret08,0.25,0.5
    $Default SBanks: ( "FighterKiller" )
$Subsystem: turret09,1.0,6.5
    $Default SBanks: ( "Shivan Cluster" )
$Subsystem: turret10,0.25,0.5
    $Default SBanks: ( "Shivan Cluster" )
$Subsystem: turret11,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret12,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret13,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret14,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret15,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret16,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: turret17,0.5,0.5
    $Default PBanks: ( "Shivan Turret Laser" )
$Subsystem: navigation, 4,0.0
$Subsystem: weapons, 1,0.0
$Subsystem: sensors, 10,0.0
$Subsystem: engine 1, 5,0.0
    $Engine Wash: Default1100
$Subsystem: engine 2, 5,0.0
    $Engine Wash: Default1100
$Subsystem: communication, 2,0.0
$Subsystem: fighterbay 1, 0,0.0
$Subsystem: fighterbay 2, 0,0.0
$Subsystem: reactor 1, 1.085,0.0
$Subsystem: reactor 2, 1.085,0.0
$Subsystem: reactor 3, 1.085,0.0
$Subsystem: reactor 4, 1.085,0.0
$Subsystem: reactor 5, 1.085,0.0


There's your lucifer class in FS2 :p
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: karajorma on October 10, 2005, 02:15:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra
um, dude, it's so easy even an 8-year-old can do it.


Unlike avoiding breaking the word wrapping I presume? :p
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Cobra on October 10, 2005, 02:18:51 pm
probably. ;)
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Flipside on October 10, 2005, 02:29:41 pm
Fixed
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: IceFire on October 10, 2005, 02:54:32 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Charismatic


WMC: No, iv had a very scratchy time with getting campaigns to work and d\l correctly (and fully, at that). Inferno and Dex Ex Maxima (sp?) and the BWO demo is all iv goten to work. I have d\l'ed many other ones they just are either incomplete files; dont work; or.. something. Don't show.

I wouldent mind help getting right files and setting it up btw..(Pm tho..)

What sort of troubles do you have?  Specific details are good :D
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 10, 2005, 07:51:42 pm
AFAIK he isn't using fs2_open...there are some campaigns that are fs2_open only (eg Transcendant) so it's something to watch out for.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Boomer on October 16, 2005, 01:52:55 pm
Actually, while this topic has been gone over ad nauseum, it surprises me that one question has never been asked  (at least, not since the last time I searched it...):  Yes the Lucy had five reactors, but reactors of what?  Fusion?  Anti-matter?  some exotic Space\Subspace reactor?  

The notion that the Lucy used normal fusion reactors has never jibed well with me.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: StratComm on October 16, 2005, 02:23:14 pm
They're almost certainly mesonic, as the diagram of the reactors in the FS1 CBani is almost identical to the FS2 diagrams of the Meson warheads in the Bastion.
Title: Lucifer Shields...
Post by: Cobra on October 16, 2005, 02:24:37 pm
we can thank the Shivans for our..errr... the future Terran race's tech. ;)