Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kie99 on October 08, 2005, 07:33:26 pm
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From the BBC
Hundreds die in South Asia quake (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4321490.stm)
[q]Damage is extensive, officials say
Pakistan says more than 1,000 people may have died in a powerful quake that also hit north India and Afghanistan.
The 7.6-magnitude quake with the epicentre 80km (50 miles) north-east of Islamabad wiped out several villages.
At least 500 died in North-West Frontier province in Pakistan. More than 450 lost their lives in the disputed territory of Kashmir.
In Islamabad, people rushed to dig with bare hands to rescue those trapped when an apartment building collapsed.[/q]
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, who was visiting the site, said the quake was a "test of the nation".
Several countries have offered to send emergency aid.
In a message to Mr Musharraf, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said: "While parts of India have also suffered from this unexpected natural disaster, we are prepared to extend any assistance with rescue and relief which you may deem appropriate."
Severed legs
The earthquake, which was registered at 0350GMT, was felt as far away as the Afghan capital, Kabul, and India's capital, Delhi. Several aftershocks followed.
Maj Gen Shaukat Sultan, President's Musharraf's spokesman, told the BBC: "I would say it is massive damage that has been caused. I would say that the casualties may not be hundreds - but much more."
[q]I could only do one thing which was to pick people out of the rubble and with my bare hands I started to dig
Karam Umrani
Islamabad police officer[/q]
Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao told local television: "We have reports that several entire villages have been wiped out."
The head of police in the North West Frontier Province told AFP news agency "between 550 and 600" people had died and the figure was likely to rise.
In Pakistani-controlled Kashmir 250 bodies have been recovered of the more than 2,000 feared dead, an official told the BBC from the provincial capital, Muzaffarabad.
"All official buildings have collapsed," he said.
Landslides have blocked all access roads to Muzaffarabad, where there is no electricity and telephones.
Islamabad collapse
Part of the upmarket Margala Towers residential complex collapsed in Islamabad.
One rescuer, Rehmatullah, said: "I rushed down and for some time you could not see anything because of the dust... We pulled out one man by cutting off his legs."
Karam Usmani, a 28-year-old sub-inspector with Islamabad police told the BBC: "I heard the cries of the people in the debris and with my bare hands I started to dig and I pulled out one dead body.
"But I managed to rescue another man of 35 and carried him on my shoulders to the ambulance."
In Indian-administered Kashmir, 200 are confirmed dead - including 15 soldiers - and 600 injured.
The town of Uri close to the Line of Control that separates divided Kashmir was worst hit, with 104 dead.
The administration is working overtime to restore essential supplies like electricity and water disrupted by the earthquake, says the BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar.
Aid talks
Ben Phillips of Oxfam told the BBC a meeting of relief organisations was under way and is liaising with the UN and the Pakistani government on supplying aid.
Mr Phillips said the initial requirement would be for tents, blankets, food aid and medical supplies.
In other reports around the region:
* A meeting attended by India's prime minister in the northern city of Chandigarh was stopped after his bodyguards ordered an immediate evacuation following the tremors.
* The 200-year-old Moti Mahal fort in Poonch district, Indian-administered Kashmir, has collapsed.
* One child was killed and six injured in a school collapse in Rawalpindi, Pakistan's information minister said.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,35672.0.html
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,35672.0.html
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that's sad... :(
Edit: :blah:
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:lol:
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ffs
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:o Lock please.
Bobboau's response was the last one I was thinking I would get when I opened the thread. :p
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Classic.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
:o Lock please.
Bobboau's response was the last one I was thinking I would get when I opened the thread. :p
Actually, I'd rather merge the first thread to the end of this one; the title is more accurate (when I posted it the bbc headline still said hundreds').
Bobs obviously amused by the simultaneeous posting....... in case anyone didn't realise that.
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This is almost worth keeping unlocked and unmerged...
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you could just modify the title of the origonal thread, lock this one but don't delete it (it is funny, but only because it hasn't become a spam thread yet)
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The Death Toll has hit at least 19,000 now. :(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4324534.stm
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You know what? I think the international response to this has been a f**king joke. The west has frequently proclaimed that Pakistan is their greatest ally in the muslim world in the fight against international terror. Their leader has faced assassination attempts because he's so loudly stated that he's helping the US. After hurricane Katrina Pakistan pledged to give the US $1m and offered doctors and paramedics.
And you know how much the US is offering them back? $100,000. That's right 1/10th of what they wanted to give the USA :rolleyes:
Oh and just in case you think this is just me having a go at America I'm just as disgusted at the UKs initial offer of £100,000 and their current offer of 177.000 isn't that much better even if they are sending a 60 man team to help. :hopping:
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BBC says 20,000, CBC lists 30,000.
I agree with you Karajorma, Canada only offered $300,000. However, as we all know, it's not just the donated money for a cause, but who is getting the money and supplies they need to help right now.
But as citizens we can donate to rapid response releif agencies. Sometimes its better dollars are going directly to agencies, rather than indirectly through government.
Not to say that the current offers are measly, at best.
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You realize of course that the US generally sends aid through way of private charities etc.? That's where the real meat is.
Though you are wrong. The US is putting in $500,000 to the American Red Cross for relief + more.
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Agreed, tens of thousands of people have died, yet I promise this will get less airing than the ongoing saga of New Orleans (And don't even get me started on the reoccupation of the city). This deserves just as much attention and help as any other disaster, regardless of where it takes place.
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Originally posted by Deepblue
You realize of course that the US generally sends aid through way of private charities etc.? That's where the real meat is.
Government aid? I'm not talking about private donations here.
Originally posted by Deepblue
Though you are wrong. The US is putting in $500,000 to the American Red Cross for relief + more.
Even if I believe you that's still half of what Pakistan offered them.
If you've got a better source than the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4324014.stm) feel free to post it. That story is a few hours old now.
Originally posted by Flipside
Agreed, tens of thousands of people have died, yet I promise this will get less airing than the ongoing saga of New Orleans (And don't even get me started on the reoccupation of the city). This deserves just as much attention and help as any other disaster, regardless of where it takes place.
I agree but the fact that the west constantly states that Pakistan is ally should have meant that this story got much more attention than it has.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Government aid? I'm not talking about private donations here.
Even if I believe you that's still half of what Pakistan offered them.
If you've got a better source than the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4324014.stm) feel free to post it. That story is a few hours old now.
I agree but the fact that the west constantly states that Pakistan is ally should have meant that this story got much more attention than it has.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/10/09/bush_us_sends_assistance_to_pakistan/
Associated press.
The U.S. Agency for International Development has contributed $500,000 to the American Red Cross for Pakistan relief.
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And I state YET AGAIN that this is half of what Pakistan offered them.
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I always say we live in a topsy-turvy world when we always assume that the locals are 'used' to Tsunami's or Earthquakes because they are Hotspots. Heard this argument tonight, that area of India is a geological hotspot and to a certain degree, the locals were 'used' to disasters...How anyone can assume that poor countries, on account of being poor, have somehow come up with a natural resistance to the death of thousands is.....wierd.
Edit : Does anyone know what sort of help the nearby countries are sending?
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+ 10 heavy lifting helos. God knows what they cost. And like I said, none of this includes private organizations.
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And like I said I couldn't give a flying f**k what private individuals are giving. It's completely irrelavent to the discussion at hand.
And it's not like the US are giving Pakistan the helicopters to keep. All they're getting is the rental for a few days.
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No it's not irrevelant. Private organizations giving money towards foreign causes is like the government giving the money themselves due to the fact that it takes money out of the country. When Pakistan pledged 1 million, it's not like any more would be coming from private organizations within Pakistan.
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Talk about completely missing the f**king point. :rolleyes:
I was talking about how come Pakistan has helped the west out several times in the "War on Terror" and yet when they have a problem how is it going to look to the rest of the world if the west shows themselves up as the fairweather friends everyone has always said that they are.
I just get the feeling that we're missing a major opportunity here on top of being completely useless at helping out a nation that is supposedly a friend.
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The West is helping. The point is that you can't express the help given in XXX numbers of dollars/pounds or what have you.
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Guys, calm down. The explanation is simple: America is the center of the world. Something big happens there, it gets lots of coverage, and rightly so. Without America, the sun would go nova and kill us all. So shut up about America getting undue attention, okay? America is the CENTER of the WORLD. Get it through your thick skulls. Gosh - idiots!
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Could someone change the title to 30,000 feared dead instead of 3,000
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Originally posted by Deepblue
You realize of course that the US generally sends aid through way of private charities etc.? That's where the real meat is.
Though you are wrong. The US is putting in $500,000 to the American Red Cross for relief + more.
Regardless of other issues, private charity is pretty much totally irrelevant to levels of government foreign aid. The reason being that government aid constitutes a political and diplomatic commitment, a formal assignation of 'value' of their concern, etc, i.e. the value or level of their desire to help.
Individual charity is just that; individual. If I give xx pounds to this appeal and Joe Bloggs in Kansas gives xx dollars to this appeal, it's not a fair measure of the importance of either the UK or the USAs' commitment to assist and support.
The point kara is/was making is that for the last 4 years, Pakistan has made itself the chief Muslim ally of the US; and at a great cost to its leadership and potentially stability (ignoring that the origins of that stability are pretty much a junta). They're the ones who've been at the real forefront of this 'war on terror', and they've probably done more to round up Al-Queda and Taliban fugitives than any other country, including the US.
Now, they've been hit by an absolute horror of a disaster here, and they've asked for "massive cargo helicopter support". That the US has offered a grand total of...8, 3 of which are UH-60s, and less rescue personnel than other nations, may spark some soul-searching on their part as to how valuable their previous assistance has been to the US. I would expect that number to go up (as the aid has; the initial figure was $100k, which was less than 1/30th of the EU donation of $3.8m) simply because I'd expect them to ask for more.
Certainly, if you were to place a value upon Pakistans role as a US ally, then it'd be exponentially higher than $500k.
EDIT; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Kashmir_earthquake#International_response
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So the UK is sending out 100 grand and 50 Doctors?
That's embarrasing.
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Yup. Bloody Belgium is sending more. More than anyone else, I think, except maybe the whole EU.
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At least 19,000 people are thought to have been killed in Pakistan, and it is feared the toll could rise much higher.
:(
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Originally posted by aldo_14
and at a great cost to its leadership and potentially stability (ignoring that the origins of that stability are pretty much a junta).
To be fair to Musharraf his choices at the time were to stage a coup and remove the increasingly dictatorial prime minister or have his plane run out of fuel and fall out of the sky.
He has since held general elections and won.
Originally posted by aldo_14
They're the ones who've been at the real forefront of this 'war on terror', and they've probably done more to round up Al-Queda and Taliban fugitives than any other country, including the US.
Now, they've been hit by an absolute horror of a disaster here, and they've asked for "massive cargo helicopter support". That the US has offered a grand total of...8, 3 of which are UH-60s, and less rescue personnel than other nations, may spark some soul-searching on their part as to how valuable their previous assistance has been to the US. I would expect that number to go up (as the aid has; the initial figure was $100k, which was less than 1/30th of the EU donation of $3.8m) simply because I'd expect them to ask for more.
Certainly, if you were to place a value upon Pakistans role as a US ally, then it'd be exponentially higher than $500k.
Exactly. So you do have to wonder why the US and UK are making such an effort to offend someone we should be helping. Especially when you consider that Japan, China and even Turkey appear to have done more to help them.
To be honest I would have thought that backing Pakistan to the hilt would have been a no-brainer for the US and UK (Especially the UK actually seeing as how Pakistan is a Commonwealth country with a sizable ex-pat population living here).
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Originally posted by karajorma
To be honest I would have thought that backing Pakistan to the hilt would have been a no-brainer for the US and UK (Especially the UK actually seeing as how Pakistan is a Commonwealth country with a sizable ex-pat population living here).
With a government that has barely been legitimized and only recently accepted by the commonwealth as being democratic.
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Originally posted by karajorma
To be fair to Musharraf his choices at the time were to stage a coup and remove the increasingly dictatorial prime minister or have his plane run out of fuel and fall out of the sky.
He has since held general elections and won.
It's the thing about being president and head of the army I'm thinking of.
However, the democracy or otherwise of a government isn't really relevant to aiding the people, so it's a moot point. After all, nary a word of that was mentioned in Iran (albeit they've apparently had bugger all long term aid).
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A widely-quoted Pew Center poll released March 16, 2004 said of Musharraf:
Pakistanis expressed highly favorable opinions of their president; 86% rate him favorably, and 60% view him very favorably, by far the highest rating of any leader in the survey.
Several other independent polls, including polls by well-known organizations such as Gallup and the BBC, have also indicated that Musharraf has the support of a majority of the Pakistanis surveyed.
Doesn't sound undemocratic to me regardless of how he came to power.
Originally posted by aldo_14
It's the thing about being president and head of the army I'm thinking of.
Yeah. I do agree that it's not a good idea to have both of those in the same person. That said when he first came to power I read a tale about how come his presidential motorcade used to stop for traffic lights so hopefully he's not a man who abuses his power. I do agree it would be better if he gave that power up to avoid the temptation.
Originally posted by aldo_14
However, the democracy or otherwise of a government isn't really relevant to aiding the people, so it's a moot point. After all, nary a word of that was mentioned in Iran (albeit they've apparently had bugger all long term aid).
Yep. It's not like we're dealing with a tin pot dictatorship where the mealy mouthed excuse that it would all go into the hands of the corrupt few works. There's a fair bit of corruption out there I'm sure but I doubt it's any worse than most of the countries we helped after the Tsunami.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Doesn't sound undemocratic to me regardless of how he came to power.
It's not just about popularity though, is it? It's about how hard it is to remove him in the event of unpopularity. I honestly don't know how easy that is/would be.
But, this is kind of veering OT, isn't it?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
It's not just about popularity though, is it? It's about how hard it is to remove him in the event of unpopularity. I honestly don't know how easy that is/would be.
But, this is kind of veering OT, isn't it?
I agree that could be a problem. The reason why I brought it up though is that I don't want people using the "It's a dictatorship so we shouldn't send them money" argument. Regardless of the potential danger inherant in the way the country is being run the fact is that at the moment it's a stable democracy so the arguments don't hold.
See. It's not OT. It's a premetive strike against the arguments some would try to use to get out of feeling guilty.
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Don't get me wrong, my post wasn't about feeling guilty or otherwise it was about a potential issue that arises from directly "backing" (as aldo said) said nation.
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I agree with you there. Even if you assume that Musharraf can be trusted they've already tried to kill him once and we've got no idea what could happen if they succeed on day.
None of that is a reason for the shoddy treatment I'm seeing so far though.
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Originally posted by vyper
Don't get me wrong, my post wasn't about feeling guilty or otherwise it was about a potential issue that arises from directly "backing" (as aldo said) said nation.
Although worth putting into context that humanitarian aid is about backing people more than about government or even diplomacy. If it appears that people are lacking that aid support, then that's when the questions begin to be asked.
I kind of regret bringing that whole issue up, now :)
anyways, as it stands this disaster is looking worse by the minute. According to a UN guy interviwed on the BBC, there is a population of about 4 million in the affected areas, and almost 96-98% destruction. So there's potential for a massive humanitarian disaster.
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potential? what would you call what we have already? a sunday tea party?
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Originally posted by Bobboau
potential? what would you call what we have already? a sunday tea party?
A massive natural disaster. Humanitarian disaster would be deaths due to, essentially, a lack of basic necessities (food, shelter, water, medicine, etc). To clarify, with 98% devastation, on top of the casualties you have millions needing fed, housed, etc and a huge disease risk.
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I'm waiting for the DEC to put up their link; I have a tin full of money set aside for this sort of thing, albeit I'm sort of in a financial jumble myself given my (lack of) work situation.
I'll admit I don't personally give enough money (I think it's been - excluding the odd pound here and there in tins - about £55-60 to the tsunami appeal and I think £20 to the cystic fibrosis trust, so around £75-85 in the last 10 months) to charity. That's excluding physical stuff like clothes, of course. God knows how much of that stuff goes to charity shops; I've been reasonably successful in convincing my parents to give (useable) stuff to, say, Oxfam or the British Heart Foundation rather than throw away or give to relatives.
I would actually welcome a tax increase that, for example, meant 1p in every pound went to aid (NGO or GO). I've been saying we should have that for a long time; I'm more happy seeing my tax money (which equates to around 10% of my last annual income, I think, on income tax alone) going to proper needy causes than to, say, refitting Trident, sending troops to some god-forsaken dusthole for someone elses war, or paying some MPs junket to yet another undemocratic but oil rich/strategically positioned/filled with discrete rent boys country.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
potential? what would you call what we have already? a sunday tea party?
Sadly, compartively, yes. (http://www.hu.mtu.edu/hu_dept/tc@mtu/papers/bhopal.htm)
Some stories from timesofindia.com:
And the reason why...a whole generation lost, from what it seems. (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1258263.cms)
It seemed the world was coming to an end (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1257939.cms)
Pakistan yet to answer India's offer of aid (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1257821.cms)
Three days of mourning in Pakistan (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1257783.cms)
Bigger quakes loom in the Himalayas (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1257819.cms)
Rain hampering rescue and aid efforts (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1257650.cms)
Some stories of hope though:
Indian soldier returned from PoK (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1257830.cms)
Militants decide to stop attacks (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1258685.cms)
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Well, to quote Bananarama...
'It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it'.
A fair number of these situations that the West are now feeling forced to intervene in were created by the UK, US and several other countries by 'Gung Ho' policies about 20 years ago. Getting involved and helping out are important things, but, I have always held that people learn from making their own mistakes. America prizes it's hard-won independance every single year, the UK used to have 'Magna Carta Day', however, our government being what it is, like St Georges day it has vanished into the Ether. Local government probably thought it would offend terrorists, they are that PC (Seriously, Enfield Council in North London refused to fly the Union Jack on St Georges day because it might offend non-natives :wtf: ).
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Freedom is something only you personally can strive for, be it freedom to stay out after 10pm, or Freedom to use your legs after a horrible car crash etc, it is a prize, and is honoured and appreciated as such.
Putting aside the facts of our involvement 20 years ago, if Freedom had been handed to you rather than won, do you think you would appreciate it? Do you think you would treasure it and hold it in the highest esteem if it had not even been your achievement? The Iraqis, for example, don't see it as Freedom, they see it as a foreign army in their country. Had you left them to it, nothing may have happened, or there may have been a massive uprising where thousands died, that uprising may or may not have worked. It gets complex because Saddam was originally by all evidence, placed in power in Iraq by the West in the first place.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html - Note, yes, this is biased to a fair degree, a lot of speculation and little evidence, but there are many more documents that agree with it.
So, had we not got involved in the first place, we wouldn't actually need to be there now. Yes, Iraqs previous leader was not very well disposed towards the US, but better an honourable enemy than a dishonourable friend.
So yes, I think the entire West needs to sort out it's government, not just for the sake of the sick and needy, but for the sake of the healthy and well-off as well, the corruption in our governments is spinning like an Ooslem bird, but it's not it's own rear end it's going to end up flying into.....
Edit : Anyway, On topic, this is the sort of situation that the UN and the US should be getting involved in, it was not instigated or deliberate, simply a horrible disaster, you would hope to see people put their differences aside at times like this, but sadly, you would always end up dissapointed.
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Corruption is always going to be a problem with every government everywhere.
Most governments seem to try to do something to limit the amount of influence that corperations have, but in the US they have virtually unlimited influence by way of campaign contrabutions. It really is just another form of corruption if you think about it, but it is legal. And there are many politicians who are fighting to keep it that way because their corperate masters want them to.
But that's a little O/T.
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Update:
Bush pledged 50 million for Pakistan earlier today.
http://www.khnl.com/Global/story.asp?S=3959074
Better?
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Much.
I'm still pissed off with the pitance the UK is giving them though.
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Phew, i'm glad to see that Australia's initial donation - a pidding little $500,000 - has ballooned to (Aus)$10 Million... perhaps there's hope for our government yet... :doubt:
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Originally posted by karajorma
Much.
I'm still pissed off with the pitance the UK is giving them though.
It is truly pathetic, particularly given the large population here of Indian/Pakistani immigrants / descendents of immigrants.
And yes, much better.
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Title updated. :(
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There are a lot of Pakistanis, Indians and Khasmiris over here, I heard one guy lost eighteen members of his family...:(
It really sucks that this will happen again - Continental Drift is still going on..
They have got to start making better buildings (hopefully with help) because the sheer number of children killed in this disaster is horrifying and needless...
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Sadly, you probably won't see better buildings because of the sheer cost - not to mention that they'll probably be cutting building restrictions to alleviate the homeless situation now.
Pakistan are saying the death toll is currently 23,000. (correcting a report of 33,000 earlier).