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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: JoeLo on October 11, 2005, 08:03:21 pm

Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: JoeLo on October 11, 2005, 08:03:21 pm: If you believe in the rapture (which I sort of do) then think about all the diasters. Hurricanes, tidal waves, earthquakes. Listen to this on June sixth the date will be 06\06\06 this is to signfy the coming of the anti-christ. If the rapture is real it will happen next year.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Scuddie on October 11, 2005, 08:04:10 pm: Dun dun dun...
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: StratComm on October 11, 2005, 08:05:56 pm: Because our current system of dates obviously predates the writing of Revelations. Oh, wait...
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: JoeLo on October 11, 2005, 08:06:53 pm: Understood, but it could be symbolic. This wasn't a joke perse more a wandering thought.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ford Prefect on October 11, 2005, 08:07:59 pm: (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/Mistah_Kurtz/wonka_flame.jpg)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Scuddie on October 11, 2005, 08:08:35 pm: No we don't.
Title: Re: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: BlackDove on October 11, 2005, 08:09:11 pm: Quote
Originally posted by JoeLo
If you believe in the rapture (which I sort of do) then think about all the diasters. Hurricanes, tidal waves, earthquakes. Listen to this on June sixth the date will be 06\06\06 this is to signfy the coming of the anti-christ. If the rapture is real it will happen next year.

God willing.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 11, 2005, 08:09:28 pm: I doubt that St. John the Divine could have predicted both the Julian calendar and then the adjustment to that known as the Gregorian calendar. Also, I'm honestly leaning toward the camp that states that Revelations is a veiled political treatise.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ford Prefect on October 11, 2005, 08:12:43 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Scuddie
No we don't.

Just wait.
Quote
Originally posted by BlackDove
God willing.

Batum-CHING!
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: StratComm on October 11, 2005, 08:16:04 pm: I'm tempted to make an ID comment, but since Ford Prefect cannot, on principle, be right now that he's gone and posted an eBaumsworld (or whatever) caption I'm going to hold it back.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kamikaze on October 11, 2005, 08:22:01 pm: Ramen.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 11, 2005, 08:29:21 pm: You're not supposed to talk about ramen. That is entirely within the domain of undergraduate students, graduate students, and those just entering the workforce.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Goober5000 on October 11, 2005, 08:36:46 pm: I'm of the tentative opinion that the prophetic calendar is actually centered around Christ's death, not his birth. Thus we're actually in the mid-to-late 1970s.

At the same time, "no man knows the hour..." so date-setting is not only speculative, it's counterproductive.

Nevertheless, signs in the Earth and in the heavens are good things to keep track of. :)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 11, 2005, 09:05:33 pm: Prophetic calendar? What the bleep is wrong with the normal Gregorian calendar?

Pfeh! Kids these days and their silly JRPG style prophecies and augury like attempts to find 'patterns of prophecy.'

But hey, let's not let things like reason stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

*Pulls out the popcorn*
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: FireCrack on October 11, 2005, 09:17:15 pm: Mabye we could convince all those ID whackos that if you made it to that date without denying christ then they get a free ticket to heaven and dont have to spew all their gospel anymore?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Goober5000 on October 11, 2005, 09:26:20 pm: Jokes and relevant discussion are okay, but no flaming or this thread gets locked.

Ace: The "prophetic calendar" refers to God's timeline for prophesized events, which is independent of any calendar used by man.

My tentative opinion is that the 2000 year mark on that calendar may have something to do with Hosea 6:2 "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight" if you use the 1 day = 1000 years formula. But it's only a thought experiment, so I'm not going to rely on it for any predictions. :)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: mikhael on October 11, 2005, 09:37:01 pm: 06/06/06? Please

That's not the number of the Beast. It was a mistranslation. Like half the stuff in the dusty old tome.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: MatthewPapa on October 11, 2005, 09:39:41 pm: Yea, the calender is off at least 3 years. All the dudes that met to create it screwed up a little bit. Doesnt mean much now but nevertheless it happened.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 11, 2005, 09:43:28 pm: The number of the Beast was 616, and is easily translated to Nero. Hence the veiled political treatise theory.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 11, 2005, 09:50:39 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
Jokes and relevant discussion are okay, but no flaming or this thread gets locked.

Ace: The "prophetic calendar" refers to God's timeline for prophesized events, which is independent of any calendar used by man.

My tentative opinion is that the 2000 year mark on that calendar may have something to do with Hosea 6:2 "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight" if you use the 1 day = 1000 years formula. But it's only a thought experiment, so I'm not going to rely on it for any predictions. :)

Well if you're going to persist in being a shrub: 1 "day" equals 1.95714286 billion years. (since this universe is 13.7 billion years old) As obviously pointed out in the creation myth.

So you'll be revived in 3.91428572 billion years.

...and you'll be 'raised up' in 5.87142858 billion years.

Not that it'd matter to the extra-terrestrial (by definition) you worship. Seems like an awful lot of waiting and prostrating in the meantime. Glad I won't have to deal with it. ;)

An awful lot 'o waiting... and these numbers are at least as legit as any of the other conspiracies floatin' about. Probably moreso :)

But yeah, Revelations refers to Nero and pretty much comes down to the "kingdom of god being right around the corner." Guess they were right, too bad these days we consider that kingdom of god to be a little thing called the dark ages... *tsk tsk*
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Taristin on October 11, 2005, 09:50:45 pm: 06/06/06 happened already. June 6th, 1906. June 6th, 1806. June 6th, 1706...
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 11, 2005, 09:56:04 pm: Let alone 06/06/1006

Afterall the year 1000 was going to be the apocalypse. So was the year 2000.

Hopefully by the year 3000 we'll have HK-47 and new, even more creative, doomsday cults and revealed religions to entertain us.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 11, 2005, 09:59:27 pm: Fool! HK-47 existed in a time long ago in a galaxy far, far away!
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 11, 2005, 10:04:18 pm: What has happened shall come again. So say we all.

*drools over Darth Revan's lucious, lithe female form and her long dark hair*
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 11, 2005, 10:06:39 pm: Sadly, the accepted chronology is a male Revan who returns to the light side.

Too bad. I enjoyed playing the evil Revan who gets Bastilla in the end.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: deep_eyes on October 11, 2005, 10:07:33 pm: THE END IS NHY! THE PATH OF THE ONE IS COMING! REPENT! REPENT! THE ANTICHRIST IS.....

***hears knocks on the door from the Secret Service***

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its................................(&^(*GD*ST*&GFR#!
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: BlackDove on October 11, 2005, 10:20:41 pm: Was that a Vader "NOOOOOOOOOOO"?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: IceFire on October 11, 2005, 10:26:29 pm: Oh goodness....there are so many coincidental numbers that match up that the world has been slated to end at least 10 different times since I was born.

Might as well worry about something worthwhile...
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: WMCoolmon on October 11, 2005, 10:51:19 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
I'm of the tentative opinion that the prophetic calendar is actually centered around Christ's death, not his birth. Thus we're actually in the mid-to-late 1970s.

At the same time, "no man knows the hour..." so date-setting is not only speculative, it's counterproductive.

Nevertheless, signs in the Earth and in the heavens are good things to keep track of. :)

Sounds like a good Family Guy clip.

"So...is the rapture still on for July 14th?"
"Sorry, sir. It looks like a hobo down in New England has started passing out flyers. Claims Jesus is a vegetarian and the 14th is the founding date for Green Giant."
"Dammit! Now we're going to move it back a year again."

(Note: based on a true story)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Black Wolf on October 11, 2005, 11:13:57 pm: Mayan god's are due back any year now. Then you're all screwed :p
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Scuddie on October 11, 2005, 11:28:06 pm: "Gozer the Gozerian? Good evening. As a duly designated representative of the city, county, and state of New York, I hereby order you to cease and decist all supernatural activity and return to your place of origin, or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension!"
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 12, 2005, 12:03:22 am: Yup, Black Wolf is right. We're all doomed.

Anyway, Xenu could kick the asses of all comers in the supernatural arena any day of the week.

Two words:
Battlefield Earth

That's right, they'd all die when seeing Travolta's codpiece. Especially the ones who claim to have created this universe since they'd realize what a horrible, terrible, mistake it was.

Actually, Battlefield Earth is a damn good reason for everyone to be an atheist.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 12:09:54 am: I propose a Divine Deathmatch, done the same way as Celebrity Deathmatch was.

Just picture a claymation fight between Odin and Hades!
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Sigma957 on October 12, 2005, 12:13:27 am: That would be interesting to see.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 12:24:50 am: I think it'd be appropriate matching up gods with similar roles, hence Odin and Hades (gods of death).
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ford Prefect on October 12, 2005, 01:19:06 am: As long as I get to have sex with Aphrodite.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Mefustae on October 12, 2005, 02:00:10 am: Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf
I propose a Divine Deathmatch, done the same way as Celebrity Deathmatch was.
"In the Red Corner, the Son of the Lord God and the Saviour of all Mankind... JESUS!!!" *Clapping*
"And in these two corners, son of the Gods Odin and Jord, Lord of creator of Thunder, and arguably the most powerful God of the Norse Pantheon... THOR!!!" *Unbridled Applause*
*Ding Ding*
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Sandwich on October 12, 2005, 02:41:45 am: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00073BM8O/102-6003871-1214524?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Yeah. I think this guy even had a sequel, "89 reasons...", for the very next year. Can't find it though.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 12, 2005, 02:42:01 am: *Thor beams Jesus into the hands of the Wraith*

"Ermm... Thor wins!"

*Thor high-fives Thor*
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: karajorma on October 12, 2005, 03:57:51 am: Quote
Originally posted by JoeLo
If you believe in the rapture (which I sort of do) then think about all the diasters. Hurricanes, tidal waves, earthquakes. Listen to this on June sixth the date will be 06\06\06 this is to signfy the coming of the anti-christ. If the rapture is real it will happen next year.

Does that mean that I can have all your stuff on the 5th? After all you won't be needing it anymore.

Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00073BM8O/102-6003871-1214524?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Yeah. I think this guy even had a sequel, "89 reasons...", for the very next year. Can't find it though.

I'll bet he's doing a roaring trade with a book on reasons why the world will end 17 years ago :D
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 12, 2005, 04:50:54 am: Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf
I propose a Divine Deathmatch, done the same way as Celebrity Deathmatch was.

Just picture a claymation fight between Odin and Hades!

Cthulhu would wipe the floor with all of them..... and then bite their heads off.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 05:14:28 am: I was reading somewhere that fully 1/3rd of Americans welcome the apocalypse. I am not sure how accurate that is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 05:18:26 am: Quote
Originally posted by Kosh
I was reading somewhere that fully 1/3rd of Americans welcome the apocalypse. I am not sure how accurate that is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

Can't be true. At least 50% voted for it.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 05:33:00 am: :lol:
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Bobboau on October 12, 2005, 07:55:37 am: you know, given the history on this forum, I actualy cannot beleive this was even posted, I truely was suprised.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 08:07:22 am: The person who posted this has only been here for a few months. Give him a break.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Bobboau on October 12, 2005, 08:11:48 am: if he had been here for a few days I could understand it, but surely 4 months is more than enough time to get the jist of the comunity.
I mean he proposes that the reason we are haveing a lot of storms is because it's the end of the world. yeah, because we've never had earthquakes and huricanes before.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 08:13:38 am: He is risking looking like a bit of a tit in 8 months time or so, though.

Honestly, people should learn from Nostradamus; predictions must be sufficiently vague and meaningless as to be widely intepreted to to fit events long after you are dead, but sufficiently interesting to sell tonnes of books when you're alive.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Col. Fishguts on October 12, 2005, 08:21:10 am: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
.... looking like a bit of a tit...

OT: I'm always amazed that this is a valid phrase in British slang, I love it.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 08:36:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

I'll bet he's doing a roaring trade with a book on reasons why the world will end 17 years ago :D

Surprisingly, there are no reviews there; perhaps all the purchasers are still hidden under the bed asking 'is it started yet'?

I'll be each of the 5 people selling second hand copies feel a bit of an arse, too.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 09:56:18 am: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

Can't be true. At least 50% voted for it.
More along the lines of 1/4 to 1/3 of those eligible to vote, which excludes minors and felons.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ford Prefect on October 12, 2005, 09:57:22 am: If I can't destroy the faith of others, why am I alive?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 10:00:28 am: Quote
Originally posted by Sapphire
Doest thou never tirest of feeding of the blood of the unsuspecting?

Okay...you guys have shown your aversion to the religious musings of a 14 year old. I'm sure he's learned his lesson.

We're just preparing him for the, um, letdown of 6th June next year.

Hey, I wonder if the World Cup starts about then?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: vyper on October 12, 2005, 10:03:10 am: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
I'm of the tentative opinion that the prophetic calendar is actually centered around Christ's death, not his birth. Thus we're actually in the mid-to-late 1970s.

BOOGIE BABY! I'm gonna get me a big car, a big afro, some smooth tunes and a lady...

Moving on:
[q]
Hey, I wonder if the World Cup starts about then?[/q]

So the rapture has already happened in Scotland then? :ick:
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 10:04:24 am: Quote
Originally posted by vyper

So the rapture has already happened in Scotland then? :ick:

I think it started with Ally McLeod...........
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Goober5000 on October 12, 2005, 12:27:42 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Sapphire
Ummm....love you guys! :nervous: Want an apple?? :devil:
:lol:
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 12:36:39 pm: So.... I'm thinking a Roman Senate-style "execution" for Sapphire. Everyone have their knives ready?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: karajorma on October 12, 2005, 01:03:32 pm: Why bother. If we wait till the 6th June the problem will take care of itself. :)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 01:20:24 pm: I was really hoping for someone to say something along the lines of "Et tu, Brute."
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 04:29:20 pm: "Et tu Brute"

Right, lovely. Send my cheque via RADA, lads.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: CaptJosh on October 12, 2005, 05:01:16 pm: I don't buy the aforementioned mistranslation theory on the number of the beast. And I'll tell you why.

It said that all would have to have the mark on their right hand or in their forehead, the exact word translating to the traditional Hindi location of the "third eye".

Now, something I read about several years ago in Popular Science was an ID chip that could be implanted in either of those locations, from where it would be able to derive the most power thermovoltaicly.

These chips have been suggested for convicts, because they can be read from a distance and so would virtually eliminate the need for headcounts in prison. As they use body heat for a power source, if they're cut out, they fail to broadcast their locator signal that is the id number of the chip. Said ID is a UIN consisting of three tiers of six digits each. Six, six, six.

Similar chips are already being used by rich people to tag their pets.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Rictor on October 12, 2005, 05:15:11 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/Mistah_Kurtz/wonka_flame.jpg)

Who is that? Looks sort of like Teller-as-Willy Wonka.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: CaptJosh on October 12, 2005, 05:18:00 pm: That's Gene Wilder. He's the original movie Willy Wonka from the original 1971 movie.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Unknown Target on October 12, 2005, 05:18:55 pm: ...It is Willy Wonka. From the original film. :p
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 06:13:20 pm: Quote
Originally posted by CaptJosh
I don't buy the aforementioned mistranslation theory on the number of the beast. And I'll tell you why.

It said that all would have to have the mark on their right hand or in their forehead, the exact word translating to the traditional Hindi location of the "third eye".

Now, something I read about several years ago in Popular Science was an ID chip that could be implanted in either of those locations, from where it would be able to derive the most power thermovoltaicly.

These chips have been suggested for convicts, because they can be read from a distance and so would virtually eliminate the need for headcounts in prison. As they use body heat for a power source, if they're cut out, they fail to broadcast their locator signal that is the id number of the chip. Said ID is a UIN consisting of three tiers of six digits each. Six, six, six.

Similar chips are already being used by rich people to tag their pets.

The 616 value comes from the oldest known copy of the New Testament (or precisely, a scrap of it), and the direct translation of the Greek numerals. So it's pretty definitive.

EDIT; it was only recently scanned, hence the newness of this information. Albeit 'rumour' is definately the wrong way to describe it.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Sandwich on October 12, 2005, 06:24:26 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

The 616 value comes from the oldest known copy of the New Testament (or precisely, a scrap of it), and the direct translation of the Greek numerals. So it's pretty definitive.

EDIT; it was only recently scanned, hence the newness of this information. Albeit 'rumour' is definately the wrong way to describe it.

Actually, it's apparently merely the latest in conflicting reports on the number of the beast. The 666 vs. 616 debate has been going on for years.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 12, 2005, 06:31:02 pm: Hmm...well...yes.

But regardless, I wouldn't place the future of humanity in numerology. There are far better reasons for being against RFID than trying to link it to the apocalypse, after all - and far more viable reasons.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 06:32:17 pm: I will be truthful: I don't believe in this "Rapture". These kinds of religions were an invention of man that has been distorted to supress science and women.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 06:47:40 pm: So you're in favor the concept of religion as a social construct designed to provide an explanation for scientific phenomena and to provide a source for morality?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 06:52:03 pm: I would perfer one that hasn't been corrupted, and that actually supports making progress (like saying that the Earth revolves around the sun).
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 06:54:08 pm: Kosh, you don't quite get the concept of the "religion as a social contract" idea. It's not designed to promote anything. It's designed to provide an explanation for phenomena and provide a basis for morality that helps the community. For example, murder. Murder is bad for the community. Hence, it is a sin.

As a note, I'm not saying I'm backing this concept. It's just a possibility.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Solatar on October 12, 2005, 06:54:41 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Kosh
I will be truthful: I don't believe in this "Rapture". These kinds of religions were an invention of man that has been distorted to supress science and women.

Been reading the Da Vinci Code?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 06:59:23 pm: Actually I never read it.

Quote
Kosh, you don't quite get the concept of the "religion as a social contract" idea. It's not designed to promote anything. It's designed to provide an explanation for phenomena and provide a basis for morality that helps the community.

I do support that idea and I think that is what Christianity originally was meant to be, but it was corrupted centuries ago.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 07:00:49 pm: You evidently don't, as you thought it should promote science. If religion is a naturally occuring social construct, then the only thing it will promote is stability. In fact, you could almost say it should be against innovation, as innovation is the enemy of stability.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 07:06:31 pm: I guess you're right.

But then again if there is no innovation, then the world stagnates. In the long run I think that is bad.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 12, 2005, 07:08:23 pm: It is. But if we go with the view I described earlier, then the religion will actively work against innovation.

Once again, I don't remotely back it. I'm actually a skeptical Catholic.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Unknown Target on October 12, 2005, 07:21:24 pm: Religion, if an individual chooses to follow it, should provide a basis of hope, but not become an impedent to progress. That's my opinion, anyway.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: mikhael on October 12, 2005, 09:54:40 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Mefustae
"In the Red Corner, the Son of the Lord God and the Saviour of all Mankind... JESUS!!!" *Clapping*
"And in these two corners, son of the Gods Odin and Jord, Lord of creator of Thunder, and arguably the most powerful God of the Norse Pantheon... THOR!!!" *Unbridled Applause*
*Ding Ding*

Bah, if the goal is to match up similar divine beings, I say let Jesus fight Odin, since they were both spiked to a tree as a defining part of their careers.

What?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Solatar on October 12, 2005, 10:54:31 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Kosh
Actually I never read it.

Your view sounded a lot like part of the view presented in the Da Vinci Code. You should give it a read sometime (more as a novel obviously...).
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 11:01:45 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target
Religion, if an individual chooses to follow it, should provide a basis of hope, but not become an impedent to progress. That's my opinion, anyway.

In theory, that is what it is supposed to be, I think. In reality, the Christian church held Europe back for centuries.

EDIT: I did mean to read the DaVinci code before I left the US, but I never got around to it. I don't know if it is sold here, and even if it is on sale, finding any book in English is very difficult.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Goober5000 on October 12, 2005, 11:08:11 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Kosh
In theory, that is what it is supposed to be, I think. In reality, the Christian church held Europe back for centuries.
Well then, how come historically Christian nations are among the most advanced in the world?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 11:12:46 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
Well then, how come historically Christian nations are among the most advanced in the world?

Because eventually the church lost influence in this thing called "The Renassance" (or however it is spelled).

For a very long time China was way ahead of the west. What happened? Neo-Confuscinism (however that is spelled too) took hold about half-way through the Ming dynasty. That caused China to stagnate and it fell behind. It is still behind but it is catching up.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: StratComm on October 12, 2005, 11:14:37 pm: Because when we finally threw off the church, we had the ancient Greeks to fall back on. And the nations that were most advanced during the middle ages (the middle-east) got dragged into their own science-suppressing religion.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Solatar on October 12, 2005, 11:14:52 pm: The Church held back Europe for a very long time in the Middle Ages, but that is arguable as the main cause. A lot of the problems that people attribute to the Church could also be blamed on the Plague, War (100's Years War comes to mind), "Little Ice Age", etc.

Of course then you had Pope Alexander I (think it's the first...) and the likes who were extremely corrupt.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 12, 2005, 11:25:29 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Solatar
The Church held back Europe for a very long time in the Middle Ages, but that is arguable as the main cause. A lot of the problems that people attribute to the Church could also be blamed on the Plague, War (100's Years War comes to mind), "Little Ice Age", etc.

Of course then you had Pope Alexander I (think it's the first...) and the likes who were extremely corrupt.

Anyone who tried to advance science in Europe during the middle ages was branded a heretic, and the church destroyed all of their work. Most of the time the scientists were killed.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Goober5000 on October 13, 2005, 12:00:45 am: I'd be interested to know where you're getting your information, because you're grossly misinformed.

Yes, there are many strikes against Christianity throughout history: the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. But these are all on account of church leaders abusing their positions. Lots of people in leadership or governing positions become corrupt; the church is no exception to this.

Rank-and-file Christians brought many accomplishments to Europe. Look how many universities and hospitals had Christian charters. Look at the great artists of the Rennaissance. And slavery was universally accepted until one Christian, William Wilberforce, drove the movement to outlaw it.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Kosh on October 13, 2005, 12:05:48 am: Quote
I'd be interested to know where you're getting your information, because you're grossly misinformed.

Then explain Galileo. He is the finest example of the church actively suppressing science.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Wanderer on October 13, 2005, 12:27:14 am: What i remember from the history is that most of the great inventions of the middle ages came from outside of the Christian area. Like from Arabs who were more advanced than Christians. Christians really brought most these to the Western Europe, either from the Arabs or from the Byzanticum (East Rome).
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 13, 2005, 03:52:54 am: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
I'd be interested to know where you're getting your information, because you're grossly misinformed.

Yes, there are many strikes against Christianity throughout history: the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. But these are all on account of church leaders abusing their positions. Lots of people in leadership or governing positions become corrupt; the church is no exception to this.

Rank-and-file Christians brought many accomplishments to Europe. Look how many universities and hospitals had Christian charters. Look at the great artists of the Rennaissance. And slavery was universally accepted until one Christian, William Wilberforce, drove the movement to outlaw it.

Ha ha ha ha ha! :lol:

Oh wait... you're serious?

Let's see: universities were designed with the sole purpose of creating lawyers and priests. Lawyers who were using Roman law that was only codified by a non-christian in the Byzantine Empire.

When independently wealthy intellectuals presented ideas such as Mirandola's 'Oration on the Dignity of Man' they were persecuted.

Advances only came when clergy trained persons ventured into heretical thought. Petrarch rejected the normal notions of looking at history as a holistic process from creation to modernity, with all events being part of god's will to create the church. He hoped for history to teach moral lessons. Of course towards the end of his life he began to stop most of his historic analysis, almost denouncing it as being worldly. But his work was continued by further humanists and neo-platonists.

As for advances in artwork, it was plagiarism of the ancients. Fresco, analysis of anatomy, by all of the 'great' renaissance painters and sculptors was emulation. (just like the humanist rhetoricians, not innovating but emulating) Actual innovation we see happening closer to the classical period with secular subjects.

On the subject of hospitals... you have to still be ****ing kidding me. Medicine in even the renaissance consisted of drilling crosses into people's skulls and sawing limbs off. Nearly all knowledge of the earlier Roman and Egyptian traditions had been lost. A prime example would be from the retaking of Jerusalem where a muslim doctor was treating soldiers who had minor wounds. (arrow puncture) Sanitize the wound (using herbs based on the Greek ideas of balancing humors, the concept was flawed but the substance did work to reduce infection) and apply pressure. The christian cure when the new doctor arrived to save the patients from a heathen? Give a prayer, paint a cross with ash on his forehead, and chop off the limb. (fortunately they did cauterize it to prevent bleeding...) Needless to say the person died. Not too surprising since doctors were barbers in the west...

Hospitales in Europe were also places of charity. Orphanages. Modern institutions of healing arrived around the mid 15th century and were based on Byzantine and Arabic designs. (modeled after the Greeks) Even these faced resistance and appeared in the more secular communities due to the use of cadavers and/or criminals for dissection. Oddly enough though the methods of teaching in this field was similar to seminary, leading to most chief surgeons never performing actual operations and not having empirical evidence to revise anatomy from the models passed down by the Greeks which were recovered by the Arabs. (these reforms happened with the enlightenment)

...and as for Byzantine innovations even they were relatively stagnant. (mainly due to becoming insular due to being surrounded by hostile groups like the Sassanids and later the Caliphates) The Byzantines did have nice advances in the arts continuing the Roman tradition but a little thing called the iconoclast contreversy led to the destruction of all of that. (christianity's attempt to one-up the muslims by destroying all images of humans)

The sad thing is that the Arabs had more of the classical Greek and Roman writings than the west did, practiced more tolerance to other faiths, (such as the Jews, guess where they went after being kicked out of Spain by Isabella in 1492?) etc. than the christian world up until the classical period. Of course there are black marks such as the support of slavery of non-muslims (though in the case of many like the jannisaries they could have high ranks in society), and the Shiite-Sunni schism. But overall they served as the "battery" for Greco-Roman culture until neo-platonism and other concepts that do not and can not stem from Augustinian (or later Calvinist, which is a reaction to the renaissance and seems to be what modern fundies believe) theology allowed for the enlightenment.

Of course it makes the current intolerance and hatred by extremists in the middle east even more terrible and pathetic.

If you want an example of christian advances, look at the enlightenment. But even there, enlightenment thinkers aren't Augustinian or Calvinist. Most share the same deist or nebulous humanist beliefs held by modern scientists/philosophers. More 'culturally christian' than 'true believers.'

As for why religious paintings were the main subject in the period: an artist needs a patron. The church was one hell of a patron. Even in the Vatican tons of the subjects of art were secular, based on pagan philosophies. Michelangelo even considered doing work for the Caliphates when he was frustrated with the Papacy. More and more secular subjects appear as we see more wealthy urban patrons. Sure artists would do crucifixes or madonna and child paintings for churches and debate which one was more christlike, but that was more artistic in nature than theological. Also, if you look at who was emulating the Romans better you'll notice that artists with more ties to the church were stuck in the traditional medieval mode more. (lack of archetectural style, distorted figures, etc.) As I said before though, real innovation beyond trying to recover what was lost only begins in the classical period.

Yes, I am grossly oversimplifying things but if religion was the driving force behind the renaissance it was only because it was a rebound from a thousand years of darkness. I get quite disgusted when people attempt to downplay the mass murder and genocide that occured due to christian doctrines "oh the catholics were evil, not the rest of us" things like killing monophysites because they thought that christ shed his mortal body when transcending? (catholics, eastern orthodox, and just plain regular non-aligned christians did this one) Calvin killing Michael Servetus for disagreeing with the direction he was turning the faith structure to? (i.e. the wealth you have is a sign if you're chosen/blessed)

Bah. History merely repeats itself, and the fool shrouded in their vestments of tradition sees the path of peace as the path of the wicked.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 13, 2005, 06:06:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
I'd be interested to know where you're getting your information, because you're grossly misinformed.

Yes, there are many strikes against Christianity throughout history: the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. But these are all on account of church leaders abusing their positions. Lots of people in leadership or governing positions become corrupt; the church is no exception to this.

Rank-and-file Christians brought many accomplishments to Europe. Look how many universities and hospitals had Christian charters. Look at the great artists of the Rennaissance. And slavery was universally accepted until one Christian, William Wilberforce, drove the movement to outlaw it.

These are not thing that are down to religion, but people. Religion just provides a framework for mass influence and justification, be it negative or positive.

Saying 'rank-and-file Christians brought many accomplishments to Europe' implies these accomplishments would be impossible if these people were not Christians. That's bollocks, same as we'd likely see similar events to the Crusades occur without a religious pretext. Not to mention where innovations were supported by the monarchy because of financial benefit, such as those relating to navigation(trade) and particularly across the sea.

We can, after all, see a hell of a lot of advancements in other places of different religious bent. The observation of the sun-centric solar system (or spherical planets) in Vedic literature, the invention of modern numerals by Hindus and brought to Europe via Persia, astronomy from Muslim nations, paper in China, irrigation in Syria, etc. So religion isn't a factor in that (although it has been cited as a reason for the end of the 'golden age' of Muslim scientific endevour in the Abbassid Empire around 12thC, as it was challenging religious orthodoxy and thus led to the teaching of theology only in schools; all knowledge 'comes from Allah' type principle).

What is a deterrent to advancement is twofold. Entrenched power structures (threatened by change or advancement, whether it's their destruction or simply a reduction of influence), and intolerance (i.e. why we saw the Crusades). Neither is exclusive to religion, of course, but religion is a damn good reason for the two (as we saw, for example, when the Christian crusades invaded Arab cities and burnt thousands of books on Muslim philosophy, art, science, etc).

But again, it's all down to people. Religion can be used as a justification for horrible things, or quite nice things. But it has no intrinsic value as an innovative force.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Bobboau on October 13, 2005, 08:44:01 am: and the fact that many christians did nice thingssort of ignores the fact that if you weren't a christian not-nice things would happen to you, leading to a rather concentrated population. Europe did some good things, if you were in Europe and you weren't christian you got burned at the stake. is it at all supriseing that nearly all good things that came out of Europe were done by cristians?
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 13, 2005, 09:03:54 am: Quote
Originally posted by Ace
(such as the Jews, guess where they went after being kicked out of Spain by Isabella in 1492?)
Incorrect. It was Ferdinand of Aragon.

As for innovation during the Rennaissance, there was quite a bit beyond copying the Greeks and Romans. The Scientific Method was never developed by any of the classical civilizations, for instance.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: karajorma on October 13, 2005, 10:48:32 am: Quote
Originally posted by Sapphire
whats the sense of arguing about it? Its just counterproductive to the cohesiveness of this community.

As long as everyone stays civil you can actually learn a lot from threads like this.

Ace's post for instance had lots of stuff I didn't know in it. :)

I learned a long time ago that your average HLPer will ignore you if you ask for a favour but would walk through fire and ice to prove you wrong :D
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 13, 2005, 11:36:54 am: Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

As long as everyone stays civil you can actually learn a lot from threads like this.

Ace's post for instance had lots of stuff I didn't know in it. :)

I learned a long time ago that your average HLPer will ignore you if you ask for a favour but would walk through fire and ice to prove you wrong :D

Poor icefire :(
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: vyper on October 13, 2005, 11:40:46 am: I think there's a cream for that.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 13, 2005, 11:50:01 am: Quote
Originally posted by vyper
I think there's a cream for that.

No, that is a cream.

(http://www.sectorgame.com/aldo/aw/ICEFIRE.jpg)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Wild Fragaria on October 13, 2005, 12:01:36 pm: I just don't pay a damn to this "666" end of day c***. As for Confucius, he was one of the biggest jerk ever.

I like you dude for working hard to prove a point when people get it wrong. Cool ;)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Wild Fragaria on October 13, 2005, 12:03:20 pm: Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

No, that is a cream.

Is that where he got his username from?! :eek2:
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 13, 2005, 12:22:25 pm: Spoiler:

The fact I forgot to edit out the 'Ralgex' on the underside might be a clue

:nervous:
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: vyper on October 13, 2005, 12:36:51 pm: Yes, IceFire got his name from a pain-inducing gel...
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Wild Fragaria on October 13, 2005, 12:40:04 pm: I am waiting to see who will be 'Icy-Hot' next :D
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 13, 2005, 01:11:18 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Sapphire
I find it interesting that the wrongdoings of the church mentioned here are those of the Catholic Church and its offspring. Hmmmm.

Remember that being a member of a church, doing things in the name of God, and thumping bibles no more makes you a true Christian than playing FreeSpace makes you a true Modder. Either you believe or you don't... whats the sense of arguing about it? Its just counterproductive to the cohesiveness of this community.

The Catholic church is simply the best known and documented example; particularly if we're referencing Western europe in the last 5/6 or so centuries. So if we're examing this period in time, the contribution of the Catholic church will be predominant. That doesn't mean the bad - or good - can be assumed to be only attributable to Catholicism; we can't even assume these things wouldn't have happened if a different denomination or even religion was the dominant one of the time.

I personally hold the opinion that religion is defined by the believers as much as the believers are defined by their religion. That's why I wouldn't blame religion for all these things (as people will always have free will); but conversely I wouldn't leave it blameless either.

Belief or rejection of religion is something which is based on a personal and usually unshakeable basis, true; but arguing about it has multiple purposes; it allows us to state our opinions and self-analyze why we hold them, and it allows us to form new ones whether in contention or agreement. There is no value in any opinion which is left unquestioned or unquestionable, in my opinion.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 13, 2005, 03:33:02 pm: Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf
Incorrect. It was Ferdinand of Aragon.

It was Aragon? Oh well. :)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 13, 2005, 09:20:25 pm: Spain didn't exist until his great-grandson. During the reign of Ferdinand, he was King of Aragon Naples and, through his wife Isabella, King of Castille.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Krackers87 on October 13, 2005, 09:22:27 pm: uh, except for the minor fact that wasnt it proven a little bit ago, that the number was actualy 656?

we had an article on here about it.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Grey Wolf on October 13, 2005, 09:35:45 pm: 616. Not 656.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Goober5000 on October 13, 2005, 11:54:45 pm: Hmm. I'm trying to figure out some sort of response to Ace's post. :)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: BlackDove on October 14, 2005, 12:12:17 am: He nailed your ass rather hard. You'll have a difficult time trying to break his points :p
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 14, 2005, 12:45:54 am: Meh, I didn't have the time nor effort for a real reply if I wanted to truly nail anyone.

Haven't people learned from watching movies? If you have to deal with the supernatural or facists, don't mess with an archaeologist.

My problem isn't with christianity per se, but with certain viewpoints such as Augustinian/Calvinist thought which is unfortunately quite prevalent in the US. Generally I don't have to argue too much with Orthodox types as they generally admit to the incredibly stupid things done and don't try to blame it all on the Catholics.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Goober5000 on October 14, 2005, 12:47:42 am: The problem it that I don't have time at the moment to conduct very thorough research on the historical contributions of Christianity.

I do have plenty of first-hand evidence of people doing stuff strictly and uniquely because of their Christian faith. Whether its accepted depends on a person's legal standards. :)

1) A friend who went on a short-term missionary trip to India was directly involved in the healing of a deaf man
2) My youth pastor experienced a whole slew of events when he went to ministry school; including having truckloads of food delivered to his apartment when he and his friends had no food at all, plus witnessing his friend healed from a football injury that left him unable to walk without pain for several years
3) Sandwich lives in a country whose inhabitants had been scattered across the Earth and reformed without losing their national or cultural identity - all of this predicted in advance.
4) Not to mention watching many of my friends have their lives dramatically changed over the course of their college careers because of their membership in the campus Christian group.

You can consider me a secondary source on the first two and a primary source on the second two (since Israel exists independent of whether Sandwich lives there or not :p). I haven't yet had the privilege of first-hand observation of a miraculous event, but I hope that will eventually be the case. :)

EDIT: re archaeology - Do note that archaeology has proven a great many historical facts in the Bible and disproven none. ;)
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Ace on October 14, 2005, 12:53:45 am: "Historic contribution" isn't being debated. What was being debated was your assertion that christianity led to technologically advanced societies. Led to positivism. Of course none of these things would matter to a True Believer, and in fact it would be logical to reject them and involvement in 'worldly affairs' to instead lead by an example, groups such as the amish take this route which is much more respectable in my mind.

Inspirational stories are a dime a dozen. You know how many ghettos were saved by islam during the civil rights movement? The passive resistance of Hindus freed their nation from colonialism. Buddhist monks still resist the attempts of the Chinese to colonize and assimilate Tibet.

Belief is a powerful force for both good and ill.

Goober, archaeology proved the existance of Troy. (along with other classical sites related to mythology) Are the Illiad and Odessey true?

Contemporary sources collaberate events such as the Phoenicians being driven out of their land by effectively Egyptian migrant workers. (the pyramids were not built by slaves) This little kingdom narrowly resisted Hettite conquest and wound up selling its own citizens to settle debts with the Babylonians. (Babylonian exile when the oral histories and traditions were written) These types of events are mentioned by several civilizations in historic documents.

The trick is seperating historic fact from myth. While there was a Troy there wasn't a single, epic, Trojan war. While there was an Israel with a faith based off of Akhenaten's Ra-as-single-god, there weren't burning bushes and magical flesh melting Nazi killing superweapons. (unless pesky time travelers... or Neanderthals were responsible. Anyway the only magical flesh melting superweapon I know of was made in 1944ce, not 1944bce)

Of course you're also ignoring the fact that archaeology also heavilly deals with unrecorded history. (late pleistoceine generally) The Middle East these days is a hotbed for finding out about early agriculture and hunter-gathering homo sapiens. Those temples Saddam was etching his name on? Civilizations with written records predating the 6,000 bce creation mark. Funny how more and more people start pushing that back further as opposed to claiming all of Sumeria was made by satan to trick us.

Not that it matters. Bah! Now I see what Harrappa is more appealing. All of the discoveries about early civilizations without the thumpers breathing down your neck to ensure your discoveries fit with scripture.

The Aborigines were right in not starting agriculture. Coersive power structures, god-kings, gods, god, and all of the other evils of the world.

Maybe we'll dig up the old note outlining the move to agriculture with the 10,000 year "Seldon Plan?" ;)

"This Seldon crisis is the creation of revealed religion. Don't Panic." :)

...and on a more serious note:
You can not prove or disprove a religion. If you can it is no longer a religion.

So please, stop with the urban legend of your faith being empirically proven when it has not and can not be.

That also goes for Scientologists and Flying Spaghetti Monstericists.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: aldo_14 on October 14, 2005, 04:14:35 am: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
The problem it that I don't have time at the moment to conduct very thorough research on the historical contributions of Christianity.

I do have plenty of first-hand evidence of people doing stuff strictly and uniquely because of their Christian faith. Whether its accepted depends on a person's legal standards. :)

1) A friend who went on a short-term missionary trip to India was directly involved in the healing of a deaf man
2) My youth pastor experienced a whole slew of events when he went to ministry school; including having truckloads of food delivered to his apartment when he and his friends had no food at all, plus witnessing his friend healed from a football injury that left him unable to walk without pain for several years
3) Sandwich lives in a country whose inhabitants had been scattered across the Earth and reformed without losing their national or cultural identity - all of this predicted in advance.
4) Not to mention watching many of my friends have their lives dramatically changed over the course of their college careers because of their membership in the campus Christian group.

You can consider me a secondary source on the first two and a primary source on the second two (since Israel exists independent of whether Sandwich lives there or not :p). I haven't yet had the privilege of first-hand observation of a miraculous event, but I hope that will eventually be the case. :)

EDIT: re archaeology - Do note that archaeology has proven a great many historical facts in the Bible and disproven none. ;)

Science has yet to disprove that the Loch Ness Monster is not, in fact, a 50-odd million year old plesiosaur living in a Scottish loch. It doesn't mean there is one. :)

Although I guess you could point to the whole genesis and flood stuff as being disproval. But I'm not sure biblical validity is really relevant to this topic, as it's the effects of belief that count. Um....

1/ That's not something unique or attributable to Christianity, though. Your friend sounds a decent bloke, so I'd suggest even if he wasn't of that or any particular religious persuasion, he'd find himself gravitating to that sort of action. (whether you interpret being a nice bloke as due to upraising, genetics, environment or whatever). Unless you mean healed by God, which is a very dubious concept IMO
2/ God or luck? (and doesn't this sort of conflict with the idea of a non-interventionist God allowing 'bad things to happen to good people'?)
3/ That's not really too valid, because if someone knows of a prediction, and then acts to meet it, then it doesn't make it prescient. It just makes it self-fulfilling - people read it, and believe it strongly enough to (try and) fulfill it. What I'd like to know is, how many little read predictions go unmet compared to the well read ones?
4/ Most people find life changes them.

In any case, I don't think you can hold religion solely responsible for anything. To remove the humanity from human action is, I think, wrong. Moreso, I think it'd be ignoring what IMO ultimately defines religion; their members.
Title: Serious (if farfetchd) explaination for geographical dias
Post by: Black Wolf on October 14, 2005, 06:32:08 am: Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
EDIT: re archaeology - Do note that archaeology has proven a great many historical facts in the Bible and disproven none. ;)

Actually, and I'm quoting from talkorigins here:

Quote

The Bible contains anachronisms. Details attributed to one era actually apply to a much later era. For example, camels, mentioned in Genesis 24:10, were not widely used until after 1000 B.C.E. (Finkelstein and Silberman 2001).

The Exodus, which should have been a major event, does not appear in Egyptian records. There are no traces in the Sinai that one would expect from forty years of wandering of more than half a million people. And other archaeological evidence contradicts it, showing instead that the Hebrews were a native people (Finkelstein and Silberman 2001; Lazare 2002).

There is no evidence that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were nearly as powerful as the Bible indicates; they may not have existed at all (Finkelstein and Silberman 2001; Lazare 2002).

Moreover, there's stuff like Nineveh being "3 days journey" across (about 60 miles in diameter), even though it was only about 3 miles in diameter when it was dug up. It's accurate in some places, sure, but you'd expect that in what is, more or less, contemporary writing. Plato knew where Athens was, for example.