Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: NeoHunter on August 20, 2001, 09:08:00 am
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Basically, this thread is for people with great imagination to come up with explainations of what are shields and what they could be made of and how they work in detail.
Shields are what? Particles? Energy based? How do shield generators project shields around the fighter or bomber?
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Originally posted by NeoHunter:
Basically, this thread is for people with great imagination to come up with explainations of what are shields and what they could be made of and how they work in detail.
Shields are what? Particles? Energy based? How do shield generators project shields around the fighter or bomber?
Maybes...
Elctromagnetic field that dissapates and absorbs laser (electro) and missile (magnbetic) impacts.
Just and idea.. i hate physics (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tux.gif)
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aldo got my idea of a particle-repeller shield, for ships travelling at very very high speeds with no 'regular' shields.
Cold plasma, energy, particles, whatever.
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As far as IW2 goes, to me a shield is any ship that can be put between your own and the enemy (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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Well an idea I have on shields is that there not matter or anti-matter, because the Heilos dose such little shield damage.
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perhaps a field of energy that is resistant to all known forms of energy fire.
I'd like to see new weapons that are on the same wavelength as shields, say over time Shivans adapt to our shielding, that would be cool. itd be like an arm race, new shields new weapons. u get the idea
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Time to ask that agin: Lasers are lihgt, right? So why sunlight isn't stopped by shields?
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Originally posted by venom2506:
Time to ask that agin: Lasers are lihgt, right? So why sunlight isn't stopped by shields?
Because sunlight is not as intense or focused as laser?
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/icons/icon4.gif) I want a better title!!!
GTD Excellence ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/excellence") Webmaster
NeoHunter< [b][email protected][/b] >
Not to mention a FREDder! :)
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Originally posted by NeoHunter:
Because sunlight is not as intense or focused as laser?
Then it should be even easier to stop than a laser no?
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Exactly what frequence would laser fire be? Shields could be configured to let through light at wavelenghts of the visible spectrum, and block all others. But that would obviously mean that no heat gets through either. Unless you let that through as well.
Then there's that 'smart shields' theory, where a shield, or it's control system, can determine wheter the photons directed at it are regular light or a high-energy laser blast.
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You know, I once had an idea for early kind of Terran shields for a story I was planning to write but never got down to it.
The idea was that in the early days of space warfare, shields act like shields that knights carry. Not a bubble that covered the entire fighter. If a laser or missile approached towards a fighter from the starboard side, the shield projector would project a "shield" at that direction. However, the bad part is that it can be easily overwhelmed by mass fire tactics. Something like the voids that the dovin basals on the Yuuzhan Vong fighters and ships do.
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/icons/icon4.gif) I want a better title!!!
GTD Excellence ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/excellence") Webmaster
NeoHunter< [b][email protected][/b] >
Not to mention a FREDder! :)
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thats how shields worked in IW1
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek:
thats how shields worked in IW1
To tell you the truth, I've never played that game before. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/icons/icon4.gif) I want a better title!!!
GTD Excellence ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/excellence") Webmaster
NeoHunter< [b][email protected][/b] >
Not to mention a FREDder! :)
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*gasp*
Well, neither have I. I just read that shields bit in IW2.
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It's possible that FreeSpace Shields are super-strong subspace fields. It would act like a wall sort of. There would be a certain threshold that the shield could block, but no more. That's why they don't block beams, because they're above this energy threshold, so they go right over the wall. This wouldn't be all encompassing, as shown the shields are sometimes penetrated even though they're still up, which could explain why some sunlight gets though. Also, missiles would be stopped since the high-energy barrier would short circuit the detonators and cause them to explode at the shield's threshold. Lastly, the radar that terrans and vasudans use could be set at the right frequency to pass out of the shields. This barrier must also be one way too, since weapons pass right through them going out.
*phew* That's all I can think of for now (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Okay. Another question is where are the shield projection lens? I mean, to effectively project shields to cover the entire fighter/bomber in a energy bubble, ou would have to have some sort of projector to project the shield around the fighter. I don't see any on ships that have shields. Even the X-Wing's shield projectors are positioned facing the front only.
And if you didn't know, the shield projectors of an X-Wing are situated inside the cylinders that also hold the phi-inverted thrusters near the S-Foils.
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/icons/icon4.gif) I want a better title!!!
GTD Excellence ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/excellence") Webmaster
NeoHunter< [b][email protected][/b] >
Not to mention a FREDder! :)
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Originally posted by QXMX:
It's possible that FreeSpace Shields are super-strong subspace fields. It would act like a wall sort of. There would be a certain threshold that the shield could block, but no more. That's why they don't block beams, because they're above this energy threshold, so they go right over the wall. This wouldn't be all encompassing, as shown the shields are sometimes penetrated even though they're still up, which could explain why some sunlight gets though. Also, missiles would be stopped since the high-energy barrier would short circuit the detonators and cause them to explode at the shield's threshold. Lastly, the radar that terrans and vasudans use could be set at the right frequency to pass out of the shields. This barrier must also be one way too, since weapons pass right through them going out.
*phew* That's all I can think of for now (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Yeah, but why a subaspace shield wouldn't work in subspace? Subspace interferes with shields (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Neo, the maps are not detailled enough so you can see those lenses, and maybe it's just an internal device.
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Lets look at the current evidence;
Shields dont stop beam weapons, which are particle accelerators (probably).
Shields are very good at stopping the maxim cannon (a mass driver).
Shields are not so effective at stopping laser based weapons (subach, prometheus etc.)
I would suppose they are a particle barrier or some sort, considering they are a massive energy drain. Some kind of field holds the particles in place which stops kinetic rounds easily but is not effective against hi-energy lasers/xasers/masers (the ML-16 is a low powered laser and therefore useless against everything)
The high energy of the laser may well disrupt the field holiding the particle mass in place.
This theory is supported by the fact there is a medium to flouresce when an energy input hits the shield.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
Yeah, but why a subaspace shield wouldn't work in subspace? Subspace interferes with shields (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
B]
I was thinking maybe a barrier that's anchored in normal space, kind of like a wave effect or such. If it comes in contact with something that disrupts normal space(a subspace vortex, or in subspace, where normal space doesn't exist) then the shield will have nothing to anchor to, and won't work.
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Actually, I would like to think of shields as made up of invisble matter or particles. These particles or matter are attracted to something like energy or some sort of kinetic force.
When a fighter fires laser blasts at another fighter, the shield particles get attracted to it and start concentrating themselves at the approximate location where the laser is bound to hit the shield. That's why when the laser finally hits the shield, that spot on the shield, or in FreeSpace, shield quadrant lights up because the particles get so concentrated there it becomes visible to the eye.
However, as the shield absorbs more and more lasers and other kinetic weapons, the particles slowly die. That's why the shield "weakens". Only by avoiding getting hit somemore and letting the shield generators regenerate the number of shield particles back to normal proportions will the shield be "strengthened".
What do you guys think of this theory?
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GTD Excellence ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/excellence") Webmaster
NeoHunter< [b][email protected][/b] >
Not to mention a FREDder! :)
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- Visible light lasers (ML-16) have little effect.
- High frequency lasers (HL-7) are much more effective.
- EM weaponry has a very high effectiveness.
- KE weaponry has low effectiveness.
- Diffuse blasts (bombs) have negligeable effect.
- Extremely focused energy weapons (beams) effectively ignore shields.
- Traveling in subspace negates shields completely.
- When the shield is hit, there is a corresponding flash of light.
- They require energy to rebuild themselves after a hit.
Did I miss anything?
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yup: shields are divided in two parts, front and back. So it's not a sphere. And that somehow kills the fact of a uniform bubble around the ship.
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Four parts actually. That tells us it's not a single bubble.
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Wonder if creating shields are possible in real life........
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NeoHunter< [b][email protected][/b] >
Not to mention a FREDder! :)
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Maybe shields are an intense gravity field, and when a blast hits it, the photons run into a wall when the acceleraion of gravity is suddenly several hundred thousand G's and the blast is seperated into the individual photons and rendered useless. Particle weapons are not high energy, only a fast-moving projectile, and are ripped apart more easily. When the object/blast is ripped apart, the pieces are spread evenly among the field, and cause stress on it and its ability to absorb additional blasts. The field slowly bleeds off the photons/particles back into space, and regains some of its ability to shield. Em weapons don't get absorbed, but affect the shield generator's ability to maintain a strong field. Instead of overloading the field with excess particles, it decreases the strength itself.
Boosting power to the shield system increases the field's ability to bleed off photons/particles.
If you know the exact strength of the field, you can make sense of the scrambled light waves and "see" through it. That's how radar works. For outgoing weapons, the fire control is synchronized with the forward shield, which opens small holes in the shield directly in front of the cannon/missile tube, which are just large enough to let the shot out, and are open for only a fraction of a second. Scoring a hit through one of these holes is almost impossible because it requires that the shot be timed to hit just as the hole is open, in the right place, at the right angle.
High-power weapons like beams are so powerful and concentrated that the shield cannot rip apart the photons before they are already through the shield.
Ionized particle weapons like the Kayser and plasma-based weapons like the ones on cap ships are both energy AND particles, so it takes a lot out of the field to isolate all of the blast, and decreases its absorbtion ability immensely(sp).
Ships like the Ursa and Boanerges have strong fields that can absorb more photons/particles than ships like the Pegasus. However, some ships can bleed off the absorbed particles at a high rate.
The reason why the Lucifer's shields were impenetrable was because not only was the field extermely strong, but it could bleed off absorbed energy faster than it absorbed it. Whether or not Lucy's shield could block beams is unknown, but a strong enough field COULD stop a beam. Of course, to get through a field that strong, one only has to make a more powerful, more concentrated beam.
Is there anything that I missed that I could theorize on an explanation?
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Originally posted by NeoHunter:
Wonder if creating shields are possible in real life........
Cold plasma shields, certainly. I read a study about them a few months back.
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I just remembered. The only canon reference that provides an explanation as to why shields don't work in subspace is the FS Reference Bible. It states that it is theoretically possible to have a shield in subspace, but since so much energy is required for the jump drive, a fusion pile couldn't run both the drive and the shields at the same time.
Shields could work in subspace, but the energy requierments would be astronomical.
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If shivan power plants couldnt handle it then its decades beyond GTVA science to do so.
The gravity shield isnt a good theory - if you can control gravity like that why not shoot black holes at all and sundry (sundry being shivans).
It would have to be a cohesive particle barrier.
An energy barrier, while it would incinerate kinetic rounds on impact, would cause damage to the ship from energy release and also make every ship look like a while ball.
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I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired!!
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Originally posted by ^Graff:
I just remembered. The only canon reference that provides an explanation as to why shields don't work in subspace is the FS Reference Bible. It states that it is theoretically possible to have a shield in subspace, but since so much energy is required for the jump drive, a fusion pile couldn't run both the drive and the shields at the same time.
Shields could work in subspace, but the energy requierments would be astronomical.
That's not canon, the reference bible was not written by volition.
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Originally posted by ^Graff:
Maybe shields are an intense gravity field, and when a blast hits it, the photons run into a wall when the acceleraion of gravity is suddenly several hundred thousand G's and the blast is seperated into the individual photons and rendered useless.
You read David Weber too, eh? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
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Of course. That's where I got the inspiration for my definition of subspace as well(see the General Freespace forum, "LOS or Not?" thread).
Edit: I thought that the Ref Bible was a compiliation of the developer's notes.
[This message has been edited by ^Graff (edited 08-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Jabu:
Cold plasma
do you know what plasma is?
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Shield Technology
The shields in Freespace2 tell us there are 4 generators, each with a designated amount of wattage. These shields are able to absorb energy, deflect explosions and vaporise missiles occasionally (The shield generators would be quite small and advanced).
Hypothesis
Shields use a highly focused beam of energy through a serious of lenses and gases (the outer lens would be convex that causes the rays to diverge outwards) which would in turn cause a shield to form around the ship covering a certain area. Although the internal structure of the device would have complex refractive properties, there would have to be a guarantee that there are no impurities or fractures that could cause the shields to malfunction or not operate efficiently. As most devices operate at a frequency, a shield would likely operate at the Giga Hertz range or higher; therefore no visible spectrum would be blocked. Making a shield powerful is all in the technology. An advanced form of heat absorption alloy used for the Heat sinks and dissipaters, accurate production of parts manufactured within the micron, and high quality filtered gases. Electronic hardware would be used to monitor any changes in shield harmonics and frequency resonance.
Dr. Max http://www.*********.com ("http://www.*********.com")
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Originally posted by Carl:
do you know what plasma is?
Yes, usually heated up so much that the bonds between atomic cores and electrons break and all you have are free-moving particles.
It's possible to do the same, but colder. Honest. I saw something about it somewhere a few months ago.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
That's not canon, the reference bible was not written by volition.
Are you sure? It is up for download ("http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/downloads/fsrefbible.zip") at Volition's FS download page ("http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/downloads.cfm"). (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Somehow, I think shield technology will not be widely used in defense of countries. Just think.
If one nation develops shielding technology, other countries would want it too. Of course, the nation that created it will not sell the technology to the rest of the world. The rest of the world will complain that the nation is not "playing fair". Because, the nation with the shield technology can protect itself while the others cannot and can do almost anything it likes without fear of retaliation.
So, even if shield technology is possible, it will not be an easy process to have it accepted in the world.
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NeoHunter< [b][email protected][/b] >
Not to mention a FREDder! :)
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We wouldn't need shields if we weren't in a state of danger - if there was an off-world threat, then it would be a more or less unanimous decision to share technology.
Which begs the question, would ships be able to fly through shields that are large enough? I mean, we know Maxims are ineffective (well, not completely) against shields. Would ships just bounce off shields in an atmospheric environment? Would shields even work in an atmospheric environment? What would the power consumption levels be like for large shield systems? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by NeoHunter:
Somehow, I think shield technology will not be widely used in defense of countries. Just think.
If one nation develops shielding technology, other countries would want it too. Of course, the nation that created it will not sell the technology to the rest of the world. The rest of the world will complain that the nation is not "playing fair". Because, the nation with the shield technology can protect itself while the others cannot and can do almost anything it likes without fear of retaliation.
So, even if shield technology is possible, it will not be an easy process to have it accepted in the world.
Mmmmm... *thinks about shielding his neighborhood, Gilo, so the mortars and bullets just bounce away...* Hmmmm.... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Mmmmm... *thinks about shielding his neighborhood, Gilo, so the mortars and bullets just bounce away...* Hmmmm.... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Well Neo, shielding would seem to only prevent "energy" damage.... ya see, bullets are streamlined and are actually "Solid", while energy is in a dispersed mode, kind of like water... a shield would either have to be solid(to prevent bullets) or an energy shield(to prevent energy weapons). An energy shield would not stop a bullet, unless the shield is so strong when the bullet passes through it, that the bullet gets vaporized. And to make such a thing would be VERY expensive in my eyes (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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In answering to two of Setekh's questions...
Large shield systems would consume power in the megawatt or gigawatt range depending on the shield technology and what principles its based on!
The environment would not change the shield systems operating though it could react with particular objects within an environment..eg nebulas could be ignited because it has chemical properties that formulate an explosive mixture with the shields!
The other questions where to broad to answer..
Dr. Max
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Originally posted by Max:
In answering to two of Setekh's questions...
Large shield systems would consume power in the megawatt or gigawatt range depending on the shield technology and what principles its based on!
The environment would not change the shield systems operating though it could react with particular objects within an environment..eg nebulas could be ignited because it has chemical properties that formulate an explosive mixture with the shields!
The other questions where to broad to answer..
Dr. Max
Sorry, and thanks. Those are perfectly fine answers, but my questions were meant to deal with exactly that - broad areas, to show that there's a whole spectrum of questions involving shielding. Heck, we haven't even gotten into the political and ethical ramifications of such a ground-breaking technology. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Setekh don't you see that by the time we develop shield technology the political and ethical problems that could arise now won't arise then. As in Freespace the shields did not concern the government as it was the protection of our survival and advancement.
I'm aware there is a large sum of questions that arise over shield technology though answering one question will take you straight to another. So as you can see someone may as well document a report on shield tech.
Dr. Max
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Originally posted by NeoHunter:
Somehow, I think shield technology will not be widely used in defense of countries. Just think.
If one nation develops shielding technology, other countries would want it too. Of course, the nation that created it will not sell the technology to the rest of the world. The rest of the world will complain that the nation is not "playing fair". Because, the nation with the shield technology can protect itself while the others cannot and can do almost anything it likes without fear of retaliation.
So, even if shield technology is possible, it will not be an easy process to have it accepted in the world.
Bah, that's not a pb. look: everybody gots guns, everybody gots tanks, everybody gots planes. I can bet everybody gots stealth planes. If someone creates a shielding device (a true one, bouh Bush Jr (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)), one way or another, in the folowing months, everybody will have it too.