Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: an0n on June 05, 2004, 05:11:28 am
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Because it's full of people.
It is impossible to have a paradise populated by mankind.
C'z you'd still be you. You'd still have your likes, your dislikes, your hates, your loves and these would be different from other people's.
So, in the infinite, eternal expanse of the great beyond, eventually you'd find someone who disagreed with you. And maybe they'd argue with you. Maybe they'd argue with you to the point that you both became rather annoyed; To the point where you'd start trying to get other people to take sides to determine, through the concept of popular opinion, which viewpoint was most right; To the point where you'd just created the first oppressed minority in the kingdom of Heaven; To the point where God came along to tell you which view was actually right.
So you'd then have an oppressed minority, shunned for their alternate opinion and a group of people whom had just been told they were most certainly wrong and basically ridiculed by God.
Congratulations, you've just introduced the first elements of resentment into paradise, you serpent.
And in a land of eternal paradise, you'd just proved that the people whom were given the same paradise, the same love, the same forgiveness and understanding by the most powerful being in the universe were wrong.
But if you're more right in the eyes of God, why should the wrong people be given the same as you even though they still refuse to acknowledge that you were right? Shouldn't they show some humility to you and God for being wrong? Shouldn't they be punished if they don't?
Congratulations, you've just introduced racism into paradise, you serpent.
But surely, if God is all-knowing and always right, then it must be right that they are afforded the same luxuries as you. Unless of course that they're wrong and God is simply humoring them. But if God is willing to tollerate the wrongs and stupidity of men, why not the wrongs and stupidity of your pal who you've not been able to find in Heaven? Why not the wrongs of all men? Surely if he can forgive one group for being wrong, he can forgive everyone. Why should anyone have to suffer if they can be shown the error of their ways and allowed into paradise? Maybe some people just can't learn. Maybe some people just don't deserve Heaven. But your pal never did anything wrong. He was a good, kind, nice guy. Though God must know best, so that's okay. If God thinks those people who are wrong deserve to get into Heaven and your pal doesn't then he must have a reason and he must be right......Or is he?
Congratulations, you've just introduced blasphemy to Heaven, you serpent.
What happened to all those other people you saw before? Could God have kicked them out for causing trouble? That's not right. Why can he forgive those other people who are wrong, but not your people who are wrong? That seems kind of unfair. It can't be right. It can't possibly be right. God must be wrong. He has to be wrong. But if he's wrong about this, what else has he been wrong about? Maybe you don't have to forgive them for being wrong, and it's because of them that your friends are gone, that the people you liked and who liked you were cast from Heaven. And as God himself says: Sinners are punished. Causing good people to be banished to Hell must be a sin. Even if it's not a sin, it's certainly wrong. So they have to be punished. You could punish them, but God would try and stop you, and you don't want to be cast into Hell.
You could tell other people about this. Maybe they'd be willing to help you, they could punish the others and when everything is over, we could talk to God and he could forgive them. He's big on that forgiveness stuff. Yes, that's what you can do, get everyone together and you can show the others the error of their ways then beg God for forgiveness. If he can be wrong then he's not all-knowing and maybe you can trick....No. Maybe you can convince him to let you stay. If everyone went and told him and begged him he'd have to let you stay, to forgive you. So that's what you'll do. Punish the others and beg God for forgiveness.
Congratulations, you've just introduced deceit, violence and war to Heaven.
But what if the others fight back? They could retaliate, hurt you, maybe even defeat you. No, you must get them kicked out of Heaven after you attack. Make God think they started it. He'll understand. You'll make him understand.
Congratulations, you've just introduced herecy, vanity and arrogance to Heaven.
You Serpent[/size]
It's about this time that you'd attack the others and all be kicked from Heaven.
And this, kids, is why Heaven wouldn't work.
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Bored?
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You forgot the ', you serpent' on the last 2 lines.....
Wrote this yourself?
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No. I didn't.
And yes, I did.
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It would work if it were something like the matrix......each person unto his own universe......
but then you'd get the problem of eventual boredom in the long run. that, and it isn't really practical. Better just to stick humanity on Earth and let them sort it out themselves :p
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I still think it ironic that eternal damnation supposedly awaits anyone who dares to question God's infinite love :D
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the joys of being agnostic
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:lol: Anon, you really think this is goig to change other people's views??? No!!!... only athiest views, which will cause a huge conflict and eventually flamewar... *zip* ok, there's my suit, now where's my flamethrower again :p
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Saw a dude in a fantastic t-shirt the other day. Said simply "Christianity is supid. Give it up"
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
Bored?
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And you're forgetting one thing. Heaven doesn't function according to everyday rules. It is necessarily irrational and different than the everyday world we are used to. I mean, if you believe, despite all physical evidence, that there is a God and Heaven and all that, how much of a stretch is it to believe that it is a place where normal rules don't apply. And if normal rules don't apply, that makes perfection attainable.
If you have faith, which is almost by definition irrational belief, than you're not going to be rational about the quality of Heaven or of the people who inhabit it. So, you can't believe in Heaven but believe that it is a place where human sin and human weakness etc is present. Its a package deal.
Or if you don't believe in Heaven, then what Heaven is like is a moot point, to there.
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Even if it is stupid... it will help people. but, I'm not going to leave out it kills people also. If you believe or not some people aren't going to feel the same way when they look at a t-shirt
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Originally posted by Rictor
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And you're forgetting one thing. Heaven doesn't function according to everyday rules. It is necessarily irrational and different than the everyday world we are used to. I mean, if you believe, despite all physical evidence, that there is a God and Heaven and all that, how much of a stretch is it to believe that it is a place where normal rules don't apply. And if normal rules don't apply, that makes perfection attainable.
If you have faith, which is almost by definition irrational belief, than you're not going to be rational about the quality of Heaven or of the people who inhabit it. So, you can't believe in Heaven but believe that it is a place where human sin and human weakness etc is present. Its a package deal.
Or if you don't believe in Heaven, then what Heaven is like is a moot point, to there.
Well when you think about it. There still has to be sin and imperfection in Heaven. :nod: I agree
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didn't you ever watch southpark?
only mormons and saddam hussein go to heaven
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who says heaven is particularily definable in the first place?
who says there is such a thing as heaven? maybe its just the continuation of thought after death, no white clouds in the sky and such
maybe heaven is what you make of it, your own personal paradise.
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Yes... But you can't talk to them... They'll laugh, say that it completely defies logic, and kick your god in the face... That's what you can expect from this place...
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I'm not debating the existence of Heaven, it's purpose, goals or chemical fricking make-up.
I'm saying that if you consider the dynamics of the Heaven ideal sold by most major religions, it doesn't make sense and simply wouldn't work.
You want to believe in a personal paradise, fine, believe in that.
But if you want to believe you can interact with friends and loved ones you're a ****ing fool. Because people are sinners and biggots by nature, so it'd collapse the entire goddamn concept.
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True very very true Anon... but then again, no one is a fool, just very ignorant on the whole subject of heaven and what it is, how people are alowed to act and will act...But, God's plan didn't go well on Earth either...
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Originally posted by an0n
I'm not debating the existence of Heaven, it's purpose, goals or chemical fricking make-up.
I'm saying that if you consider the dynamics of the Heaven ideal sold by most major religions, it doesn't make sense and simply wouldn't work.
You want to believe in a personal paradise, fine, believe in that.
But if you want to believe you can interact with friends and loved ones you're a ****ing fool. Because people are sinners and biggots by nature, so it'd collapse the entire goddamn concept.
It doesn't make sense to YOU, beacuse your function of logic. You dont buy into the concept of Heaven in the first place. But it makes perfect sense to a believer, because they have faith. Faith=anything is possible. If you believe in God and in Heaven, you also believe that those who ascend to Heaven and are in the presence of God are no longer sinners, and can get along just fine with one another.
So, it doesn't make sense from your point of view, but from a religious person's point of view, it does.
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And that is why this thread could only be created to flame other peoples believes and not to prove anything... except the you don't believe in heaven and tell everybody who does believe that they are just plain stupid... Very well said Rictor, I have problems with explaining things the way I want them to come out
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an0n, Rictor you are both forgetting the key difference between Heaven and any other place you can conceive.
The physical presence of God
Unlike, say, the average Billy Graham revival meeting where the Spirit of God is present. In Heaven, the physical presence of God ensures that there is no strife, hatred or other evil, sinful things because such things cannot exist in His presence.
So the rampant immorality and all the baggage that goes along with being human(hatred, lust, ect.) goes away and all that is left is what is good in you. You're still you and can remember the other things but in God's presence you don't need any of that stuff anymore.
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But is the person going into heaven really you then?
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AnOn woke on the wrong side of the bed this morning, I see..
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Liberators post reminded me of the fore-last season of Angel (Jasmine arc)
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Liberator: thats what I'm saying. If you believe in God and heaven, then you also believe that being in the presence of God will wash away sin and hatred and greed, luist etc. Heaven is a different place than Earth, the rules of the game are not the same.
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Originally posted by Liberator
an0n, Rictor you are both forgetting the key difference between Heaven and any other place you can conceive.
The physical presence of God
Unlike, say, the average Billy Graham revival meeting where the Spirit of God is present. In Heaven, the physical presence of God ensures that there is no strife, hatred or other evil, sinful things because such things cannot exist in His presence.
So the rampant immorality and all the baggage that goes along with being human(hatred, lust, ect.) goes away and all that is left is what is good in you. You're still you and can remember the other things but in God's presence you don't need any of that stuff anymore.
Tell me this then Lib. Where did Satan live before he turned bad?
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Eden anybody? Big bad snake?
The Genesis (correct me if I'm wrong) proves heaven is impossible...
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Satan was origially a angel... But showed "jelousy"(SP?) against God
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1.) Can I wear my succubus T-shirt once in a while (she is firey red with HUGE tits)?
2.) Can I pleasure myself as needed (assuming the Victoria Secret angels are busy that night)...
3.) See Number 1!
End of my questions about heaven...
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:wtf:
that's a joke... right
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Eden anybody? Big bad snake?
AFAIK the bible doesn't actually say that the snake was satan.
Besides this was obviously after he turned bad.
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someone should do a computer game about Lucifer's war against Heaven. Throw in some talented and slighty twisted concept artists, and you've got the makings on a masterpiece.
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:nod:
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erm
Requiem Fallen Angel does a good job of that.
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I didn't say the snake was satan, but the snake did live in Eden so...
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Originally posted by an0n
Makes sense to me.
Lib: Well, there wouldn't be much of interest if all that was left of me was "pure and good". :p
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Originally posted by Liberator
So the rampant immorality and all the baggage that goes along with being human(hatred, lust, ect.) goes away and all that is left is what is good in you. You're still you and can remember the other things but in God's presence you don't need any of that stuff anymore.
Are you telling me God's a Polymorph?
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well I don't see the problem, once god dictates wich opinion to be corect, then those who do no hold to it are cast out from heaven and sent to burn in hell for the rest of eternity, everyone else stays in heaven, so long as they hold to the party line.
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Originally posted by Rictor
someone should do a computer game about Lucifer's war against Heaven. Throw in some talented and slighty twisted concept artists, and you've got the makings on a masterpiece.
Strangely, I've been thinking the same thing - sort of
Rather, a war in hell between 1970s America & the devil..... namely an image of a line of Hueys crossing over a firey pit.......ala every Vietnam film you've ever seen.
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Originally posted by Star Dragon
1.) Can I wear my succubus T-shirt once in a while (she is firey red with HUGE tits)?
2.) Can I pleasure myself as needed (assuming the Victoria Secret angels are busy that night)...
3.) See Number 1!
End of my questions about heaven...
Can i listen to Slayer in heaven?
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Heaven is a beach at sunset...who could argue at moments like those :)
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I could
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Sounds like Liberator is saying god is like The Many from System Shock 2.
This whole willing quasi-merger with a deity figure thing is pretty ****ed up if you ask me... :p
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Originally posted by Bobboau
well I don't see the problem, once god dictates wich opinion to be corect, then those who do no hold to it are cast out from heaven and sent to burn in hell for the rest of eternity, everyone else stays in heaven, so long as they hold to the party line.
Which is fundamentally wrong and completely going against everything the christian god is all about. Why should I be forced to lose my better part and be forced to keep my mouth shut when something like this would happen? Thats more of a hell than the 'lake of fire' that christians keep going on about.
I would much rather burn than be stripped of what makes me who I am. I am the sum of my yesterdays, and willing to fight back when pushed. Plus, I could never coexist with the christian god. I'd be another Lucifer.
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mmmm.... you do know I'm atheist right?
anyway, a more likely scenario is that only people who would never argue are let in in the first place
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Have you (or anyone else here) Played that sim game Afterlife? I think you play a neutral party and send souls to heaven and hell as you see fit and construct areas in both for their respective poplations. I was just curious what people thought of it's gameplay... I'm usually not into those kind of games.
[Edit] Oh I almost forgot, why would that be a joke? In heaven I fully expect a chance to boink some of the Victoria's Secret angels! And that T-shirt I mentioned is one of my favorites!
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Well when you think about it. There still has to be sin and imperfection in Heaven. :nod: I agree
*Puts on a "Humanity is endlessly stupid! Kill yourself!" T-Shirt*
1. Eden is NOT heaven
2. Those who are good go to heaven. You don't necesarily have to be a Christian to qualify.
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Trashman:
1. There is no heaven. It's a "carrot on a stick" for christians, muslims, etc.
2. Bull****! Tell me then: if I'm a canibal, and eat tons of humans thru my life (ofcourse, I have to kill them first :)), what will happen to me?
If I believe in my "god of canibals", whorship him, make missions to uncivilised countries :), what will happen to me?
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Eden is NOT heaven, but GOD still had a presence there and I recall someone saying something like....
Originally posted by Liberator
in God's presence you don't need any of that stuff anymore.
Should you say that god was not physically present there, I would remind the whole Jesus and Trinity thingy coupled with the crucifiction. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by TrashMan
1. Eden is NOT heaven
Satan lived in heaven. Not in Eden. If what Lib says is true he could never have fallen.
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I'm just going to be a cross between tired and mysterious by saying that most of this thread is built upon false assumptions of the Biblical text. :)
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IIRC the Bible (old testament) doesn't refer to any 'angels', merely manifestations of the divine. So there goes most of Christianity. The entire Nativity is therefore ficticious or perverted to suit the goals of someone long dead.
And back on-topic: If the presence of God is such that it inhibits actions which I should so choose to partake in, then you're basically contradicting every major religion in the world. Because if you've ever asked "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" and gotten the answer "Free will".........well, you can see where I'm going with this.
Now, if God is willing to alter the thoughts and minds of the souls that enter Heaven, souls no longer have any importance. It'd be like having a copy of Starcraft on one computer, ST:Armada on another and HalfLife on a 3rd, then reformatting them and installing Linux. What use is Starcraft if you're never going to play it?
So by the definition of you fools, either God doesn't give a **** about free will or my aforementioned scenario kicks in and all Heaven collapses. Since I've already explored the latter, I'll now explore the former.
If God doesn't give a rats ass about free will then you're left with 2 reasons: 1) He purposely and deliberately lets people suffer and sin so that a load end up in Hell and the rest end up being formatted in Heaven: Eternal suffering or effective soul-death, 2) He lacks the power to influence people on Earth, in which case he's little more than a supernatural predator, picking off the souls of the dead to suit whatever ends he strives towards.
So, assuming Heaven does somehow defy all logic and actually works without exploding, I'd rather go to Hell. Because God sounds, at best, like a dick and, at worst, like something very ****ing evil.
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Originally posted by Setekh
... most of this thread is built upon false assumptions of the Biblical text. :)
Says you. Why is your interpretation the right one?
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An0n, why don't you just accept the fact that you can't explain Heaven with your puny liitle brain.
Christianity has been questioned, inspected, disected and people far more smarter than you have been trying to undermine it for centuries.
And it is still here.
*b.t.w - If in heaven you would feel endless happines & bliss, you wouldn't give a damn about other stuff (or your own free will). Brainwash?
The ultime drug?
Oh..you don't have to worry about going to Heaven tough....Slim chance of that happening...
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Ooh dear. You're going to get owned, Trash. Incidentally,
Originally posted by TrashMan
Christianity has been questioned, inspected, disected and people far more smarter than you have been trying to undermine it for centuries.
And it is still here.
With the bottom rapidly falling out as church attendence dwindles all over the western world. Most people have opened their eyes and begun to question, see?
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Originally posted by TrashMan
An0n, why don't you just accept the fact that you can't explain Heaven with your puny liitle brain.
Christianity has been questioned, inspected, disected and people far more smarter than you have been trying to undermine it for centuries.
And it is still here.
*b.t.w - If in heaven you would feel endless happines & bliss, you wouldn't give a damn about other stuff (or your own free will). Brainwash?
The ultime drug?
Oh..you don't have to worry about going to Heaven tough....Slim chance of that happening...
Well, seeing as though several hundred years ago, you'd be labeled as a heretic and blasphemer if you didn't believe in christianity.
Which usually either got you burned as a witch or the like or just outright tortured and killed.
So ofcourse it's still here.
Christianity has been imprinted into our very lives, many of us are born and raised with it, and not being able to even choose because if misconceptions and sometimes blatant ignorance.
But ofcourse, what do I know, I'm simply an atheist who cannot understand it because I don't believe.
*stops ranting*
I don't mean to offend anyone with this post if that is so, this is simply my view.
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and your free to your view :)
Anon quit insulting christian views when you haven't experienced them for yourself...
(Got Bible?) :p
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Anon quit insulting christian views when you haven't experienced them for yourself...
Ever heard of the expression "You don't have to taste **** to know it's ****"?
Seriously though, there's a reason why the official philosophy of the catholic church is the one made by Aquino Thomas, who sais, basically, that we should just believe in divine things, and not try to explain them. Which I choose to ignore. So take it away, an0n.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
2. Those who are good go to heaven. You don't necesarily have to be a Christian to qualify.
Right, you just need to be into the whole Jesus thing... which by definition, makes you some sort of Christian afaik.
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Anon quit insulting christian views when you haven't experienced them for yourself...
So you're saying you've been to heaven and came back?
So Mohammad, what the hell is up with the folks in the Middle East?
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Nope never been to heaven... I was referring to the "IIRC the Bible (old testament) doesn't refer to any 'angels', merely manifestations of the divine. So there goes most of Christianity. The entire Nativity is therefore ficticious or perverted to suit the goals of someone long dead."
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.... so why don't you just make some sens eand tell him you don't think he knows what he's talking about?
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Your talking to the wrong person if you want me to make any sense, KT...
It's around today, and I partly agree with Trashman "Christianity has been questioned, inspected, disected and people far more smarter than you have been trying to undermine it for centuries."
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And as I pointed out, it's rapidly dying a death. Church attendance is plummeting. Once people were not only allowed but encouraged to ask quesitons, religion began to unravel. Notice how hardline Islamic countries have religious police and so forth to keep people praying? One they stopped enforcing Christianity over here, people stopped giving a fig.
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That's awefull about the religious police... is that's still today?? I haven't heard of it...
But you can't blame religion, you can only blame people...
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Probably referring to Iran, most likely. Fanaticism and religion. Bad combination. But anyway....
Christianity, once you get down to the core of it, is really an interesting heterogenous mixture. You have a base of Jewish custom, with a bit of Zoroastrianism and a good deal of the assorted religions of Northern Europe, added to convert the Germanic tribes. Also, entire sects of Christianity have been destroyed (ex.: Gnostics) because they didn't follow the lead of the majority of bishops.
And that's just the history of Christianity. We don't really need to go into YHWH's evolution from an early Hebrew tribal god up until the Roman conquest for the changes in the traditions of Judaism.
Logically, these facts suggest taking any of the dogma associated with any of the Christian, Muslim, or Jewish sects at face value is pure foolishness, and that any other writings should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Saudi Arabia also has religious police IIRC.
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Religion loses it's beauty once it starts taking itself too seriously.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
And as I pointed out, it's rapidly dying a death. Church attendance is plummeting. Once people were not only allowed but encouraged to ask quesitons, religion began to unravel. Notice how hardline Islamic countries have religious police and so forth to keep people praying? One they stopped enforcing Christianity over here, people stopped giving a fig.
Interesting that you keep tabs on that. So, how has the world attendance rating been going? Got numbers?
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Originally posted by Setekh
Interesting that you keep tabs on that. So, how has the world attendance rating been going? Got numbers?
He's right. Christianity is doing well in the third world but a recent poll in the UK showed that church attendence was at its lowest ever.
Link to the BBC site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm)
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Right, you just need to be into the whole Jesus thing... which by definition, makes you some sort of Christian afaik.
Since when? So by your definition every good persion HAS to be a Christian?
Please... everyone who is good can go to heaven. Muslims too (they do belive in one god too, and how do we not know that Alah and God aren't the same one?), Budhist, etc....
If you're good, you're in!!!!
@diamondgeezer -
As far as church attendance goes - it's not really that important. I know lot's of christians, who are all belivers, but don't go to Church anymore (they watch a transmission from the church on TV mostly). Praining God doesn't mean you HAVE to be in the church to do it. And the attendance does vary from church to church..
@An0n -
Anyway, if not a single faith is to your linking, why don't you just make a new one? Make yourself the centre of your faith and promiise your followers virgins and eternal life...:lol:
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So why were pagans amongst others.... er... you know :nervous:
(kill! kill! kill!)
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Syb over on WS promised me virgins and armies, but he never delivered so I stopped worshipping him.
As for the Angels thing and pirating some of the general ideas GW stated: The concept of anything other than a singular, all-encompassing power in Heaven didn't even come around till they started the Crusades and were sucking up polytheistic religions left, right and centre. They added the concept of Angels so that all the barbarian scum could hold on to the false idea that their deities were still real, but part of a much larger picture. Otherwise they'd have had to lay some righteous genocide on their axe-wielding asses.
Trash: I would start a religion, but it's kinda hard to get people to follow you when you're not threatening them with eternal damnation and curious concepts such as Karma and cosmic balance. My religion would be: "See things for what they are and look past your cultural indoctrination or.....I...umm.....I revoke your tax-exempt status as Arch-Bishops of my new world order!"
My 'religion' wouldn't work, because it's based on the concept of questioning everything, so the members would be questioning why they had to question everything and it'd all fall apart.
And it may be worth noting that, with the exception of Taoism, Buddhism and a few other similarly-themed far-eastern religions (IE, ones that don't offer you a paradise or eternal damnation), every 'faith' in the world is based on a foundation of genocide and general intollerance of other cultures.
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See, but Karma is a force rather than an entity. Like gravity.
Karma isn't spiteful or merciful, it just is. Basically, its a way fo saying "it all works out in the end". Like a cosmic balance sheet.
Well, thats my belief anyway, and therefore the only one that matters to me. And I think its pretty close to the "official" version.
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Karma = Poke someone in the eye, the universe stabs you in the head.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
An0n, why don't you just accept the fact that you can't explain Heaven with your puny liitle brain.
Christianity has been questioned, inspected, disected and people far more smarter than you have been trying to undermine it for centuries.
And it is still here.
*b.t.w - If in heaven you would feel endless happines & bliss, you wouldn't give a damn about other stuff (or your own free will). Brainwash?
The ultime drug?
Oh..you don't have to worry about going to Heaven tough....Slim chance of that happening...
dammmnnn man, a harsh post for sure! :D
insult the ideas in an argument guys, not the people presenting them :)
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He would, but he can't.
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yeah, well this thread has potential, but the way it's going it's going to get closed REAL soon by an admin, and i'd hate to see that :(
... because i'm actually enjoying reading it :D
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Actually, an0n, angels most likely have their roots in Zoroastrianism. That'd put their origin sometime in the first millenium BC, probably aroudn the time of the Babylonian Captivity.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Since when? So by your definition every good persion HAS to be a Christian?
Please... everyone who is good can go to heaven. Muslims too (they do belive in one god too, and how do we not know that Alah and God aren't the same one?), Budhist, etc....
If you're good, you're in!!!!
Did you miss the whole New Testament? If you want to go to Heaven with GOD as in The One that is called I Am, The Father, The Lord, etc, with Jesus and all his cohorts, your dog Teddy that died when you were six, and so on... you kind of need to be beleive in the Jesus martyrdom-sacrafice shebang, which more or less, makes you a Christian.
I don't know what religon you're into, but only crazy people would think that Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists,.. , ... could all live in the same Heaven together.
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KT is right...
What did you think happened??
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Heaven was created by God. Religion is created by man. That's my take on the whole multi-faith situation.
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That would be most people's conclusion in a Science based community... :p
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Besides, if atheists get into heaven what's the point in being a christian?
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Wasting a lot of time I guess. :doubt:
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Originally posted by karajorma
Besides, if atheists get into heaven what's the point in being a christian?
A warm, fuzzy feeling?
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Originally posted by Setekh
Interesting that you keep tabs on that. So, how has the world attendance rating been going? Got numbers?
Not on me. I just remember the fact that the numbers are going down, as I found it amusing. Remember that religion thread I started a while back? It was inspired by an uber survey on the BBC news website, and one of the articles looked at this very statistic. I can't find it now, but I did find these:
Sunday Worship In Decline (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3031175.stm)
Scotland Is Pagan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2007739.stm) (yay Scotland!)
Christianity 'Almost Vanquished In UK' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1527876.stm)
Sunday School In Steep Decline (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/599064.stm) (good, Sunday School is a particularly insidious form of brain washing)
Church Of England 'Losing It's Flock' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/518563.stm)
Originally posted by TrashMan
@diamondgeezer -
As far as church attendance goes - it's not really that important. I know lot's of christians, who are all belivers, but don't go to Church anymore (they watch a transmission from the church on TV mostly). Praying to God doesn't mean you HAVE to be in the church to do it. And the attendance does vary from church to church...
Now, you may remember that my Christian housemate reckons you have to believe in God n' Jesus AND attend church and pray regulalry, or you go to Hell irrespective of your conduct in life. Kind of... imagine if Kazan were a commited Christian. Anyway, my point is - prove to me you're right and he's wrong.
I fully agree that one doesn't have to be in a church for God to hear you. They call him omnipresent for a reason. In theory the whole universe is a temple to his 1337ness, right? However, I can't help but notice how Christianity changes to suit social evolution and changes in fashion. Today we have people 'attending' church via TV, or over the internet. What's going to happen in the future? You gonna build a robot to do your praying for you?
Taking this theme and diverging a little from answering your point, Christianity can't be taken seriously because it keeps reinventing itself. In theory, God, Jesus and all those prophet fellows laid down the law as it is, right? But today we don;t believe the same things we did 500 years ago. Or 1000 years ago. So forth, so on, et cetera. How can a religion change the way that Christianity has - going from stoning women, genocide and holy wars, through torture of 'heretics' and witch-hunts, to trying to supress astronomy and biology research and in to the present era of promoting peace and love. How the hell is that the same religion? Are you still following the same rules laid down 2000 years ago? Or are you going to tell me every Christian has been mis-interpreting the Bible up until the present generation (who can't even agree amongst themselves on most issues).
And you know what else? In fifty or a hundred years time, the Chruch will have evolved again. Gays will be accepted and abortion will be viewed as an unfortunate but sometimes life-saving operation. If you don't believe me, just try to imagine repeating your statement about God and Allah being one and the same 500 years ago. If you'd even have said it, you'd have been lynched.
Heh. You know, I think I've just stumbled on the greatest irony to date. Religion denies to process of evolution - but the Christian faith had had to evolve constantly to survive in changing social climates. Quite frankly, :ha:
Oh, and here's an article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3725801.stm) with a comedy picture of the Pope
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what if the light at the end of the tunnel is a mouth?
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Denies Evolution... Maybe, but not abdaptation
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Denies Evolution... Maybe, but not abdaptation
That's all evolution is. The long term result of small adaptations :D
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Not on me. I just remember the fact that the numbers are going down, as I found it amusing. Remember that religion thread I started a while back? It was inspired by an uber survey on the BBC news website, and one of the articles looked at this very statistic. I can't find it now, but I did find these:
I think I've already linked to the part of the site. Here's the main page
What the world thinks of God (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/default.stm)
PDF version of the survey (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/pdf/wtwtogod.pdf)
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There's a thing.....
Anyone who tells you you'll be with all your friends and loved ones is a ****ing liar.
You've got to figure that, given the laws of averages, at least half of them will be in Hell. And your dog most certainly won't be in Heaven because it didn't believe in God......Do dogs even have souls, according to the Bible?
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Definitely agreed about the shape of the Christian church in the Western world. The numbers don't lie. I oppose the assertion that that's an indicator that the church is declining. The church has been thought of as declining ever since its inception, but it grows elsewhere.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Now, you may remember that my Christian housemate reckons you have to believe in God n' Jesus AND attend church and pray regulalry, or you go to Hell irrespective of your conduct in life. Kind of... imagine if Kazan were a commited Christian. Anyway, my point is - prove to me you're right and he's wrong.
I fully agree that one doesn't have to be in a church for God to hear you. They call him omnipresent for a reason. In theory the whole universe is a temple to his 1337ness, right? However, I can't help but notice how Christianity changes to suit social evolution and changes in fashion. Today we have people 'attending' church via TV, or over the internet. What's going to happen in the future? You gonna build a robot to do your praying for you?
Taking this theme and diverging a little from answering your point, Christianity can't be taken seriously because it keeps reinventing itself. In theory, God, Jesus and all those prophet fellows laid down the law as it is, right? But today we don;t believe the same things we did 500 years ago. Or 1000 years ago. So forth, so on, et cetera. How can a religion change the way that Christianity has - going from stoning women, genocide and holy wars, through torture of 'heretics' and witch-hunts, to trying to supress astronomy and biology research and in to the present era of promoting peace and love. How the hell is that the same religion? Are you still following the same rules laid down 2000 years ago? Or are you going to tell me every Christian has been mis-interpreting the Bible up until the present generation (who can't even agree amongst themselves on most issues).
And you know what else? In fifty or a hundred years time, the Chruch will have evolved again. Gays will be accepted and abortion will be viewed as an unfortunate but sometimes life-saving operation. If you don't believe me, just try to imagine repeating your statement about God and Allah being one and the same 500 years ago. If you'd even have said it, you'd have been lynched.
Heh. You know, I think I've just stumbled on the greatest irony to date. Religion denies to process of evolution - but the Christian faith had had to evolve constantly to survive in changing social climates. Quite frankly, :ha:
The Church fundations never changed - the people did, and they interpreted it differently (some used it for their own pousrposes).
They were burning whiches becoause they were too ignorant in that time to know that there aren't any. Once the understanding of humanity increased, they could better understand the world, and interpret some things correctly.
In it's basis, Christianity never changed, and never will.
And remember the 9 circles of hell? Don't you think there just might be something like that in heaven?
So all good people can go there, but only the really good ones go on top. Makes perfecrt sense, right?
And Christ died for the whole humanity, not just for his followers (he explicitly said that!)
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You realize that Dante was making up the entire Divine Comedy, don't you, Trashman?
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Trashman: No ****, but if you don't acknowledge Christ dying, then you don't get his gift.
If your mom mailed you a present for your birthday, but you don't know who she is and you get mail from some person you think is a pyscho and mark *RETURN TO SENDER* on it, you obviously aren't going to get your gift.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
And Christ died for the whole humanity, not just for his followers (he explicitly said that!)
What better way to raise simpaty for him than to say exactly that? If he had said it only for his followers he would have been viewed as a tyrant (sp?) like most rulers of those ages. :rolleyes:
In it's basis, Christianity never changed, and never will.
Please tell me... what exactly is at it's basis that never changed? Desire to take Sunday mornings away from their followers? :lol:
And remember the 9 circles of hell? Don't you think there just might be something like that in heaven?
So all good people can go there, but only the really good ones go on top. Makes perfecrt sense, right?
Except for one thing... what is better in one "circle of heaven" than the next one? Like Liberator says in many of his posts (please correct me if I'm wrong Lib)
"Heaven is good because the people there are in the physical presence of God (...)"
They were burning whiches becoause they were too ignorant in that time to know that there aren't any. Once the understanding of humanity increased, they could better understand the world, and interpret some things correctly.
What are people interpreting correctly in the Bible now they didn't interpret correctly in the middle ages? Just for curiosity of course.
The Church fundations never changed - the people did, and they interpreted it differently (some used it for their own pousrposes).
I actually like this highlighted part of your post... except your use of the past instead of the infinitive! :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by TrashMan
The Church fundations never changed - the people did, and they interpreted it differently (some used it for their own pousrposes).
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But today you and your church buddies are doing it right, I suppose? Even though few Christians can agree amongst themselves on what's actually right.
They were burning whiches becoause they were too ignorant in that time to know that there aren't any. Once the understanding of humanity increased, they could better understand the world, and interpret some things correctly.
And today gays are persecuted. Hopefully our understanding of humanity will further increase and come forget what all the fuss was about in the first place. But of course that would mean the church today is doing it wrong, just like the church of yesteryear was wrong to burn 'witches'
In it's basis, Christianity never changed, and never will.
That's pushing it a bit. Sure, the absolute one-line sound-byte core is the same - worship God n' Jesus and be rewarded after death. But the way people go about this has changed dramatically. Time was you had to commit genocide agains the Muslims to get in to Heaven.
And remember the 9 circles of hell? Don't you think there just might be something like that in heaven?
So all good people can go there, but only the really good ones go on top. Makes perfecrt sense, right?
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As GW pointed out, Dante pulled the nine circles thing out of his arse. And ot be honest it sounds like you just pulled the circles of Heaven concept out of your arse to support your argument. And besides, a multi-tier Heaven would suck. Somehow I seriously doubt there's any discrimination in Heaven. AFAIK, God creates us all equal.
And Christ died for the whole humanity, not just for his followers (he explicitly said that!)
This is all well and good in the case of actual sinners, but if I remember Christ's sacrifice was to gain forgivness for the original sin, ie. Eve ****ing up. Well I call bull**** on the whole deal. I resent subsequent generations having to pay the price for Eve's ****up, if indeed that's the way it went down. Apparently one of my ancestors in the 1500's was a highwayman, but I'm sure as hell not expected ot pay for his crimes. I don't care if God himself wants to put the rap for original sin on me - I'll tell him to His face where He can stick it. And since, AFAIK, I've remained clear of any major sin in my life, I've got nothing I need Jesus to top himself for. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a bit of noble self-sacrifice to save others, but I don't feel I've got anything I need to beg forgiveness for so thanks Jesus, but I'm fine without you dying for me ('specially since I'm going to die myself anyway - and don't say the idea is to go to Heaven because an0n's already disproved it's existance)