Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: achtung on November 18, 2005, 09:32:23 pm
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Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051119/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_evolution;_ylt=AuF89GwUneb0.FdiaFIF5XoPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--)
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 20 minutes ago
VATICAN CITY - The
Vatican's chief astronomer said Friday that "intelligent design" isn't science and doesn't belong in science classrooms, the latest high-ranking Roman Catholic official to enter the evolution debate in the United States.
The Rev. George Coyne, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said placing intelligent design theory alongside that of evolution in school programs was "wrong" and was akin to mixing apples with oranges.
"Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science."
His comments were in line with his previous statements on "intelligent design" — whose supporters hold that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power.
Proponents of intelligent design are seeking to get public schools in the United States to teach it as part of the science curriculum. Critics say intelligent design is merely creationism — a literal reading of the Bible's story of creation — camouflaged in scientific language, and they say it does not belong in science curriculum.
In a June article in the British Catholic magazine The Tablet, Coyne reaffirmed God's role in creation, but said science explains the history of the universe.
"If they respect the results of modern science, and indeed the best of modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe as a watch that ticks along regularly."
Rather, he argued, God should be seen more as an encouraging parent.
"God in his infinite freedom continuously creates a world that reflects that freedom at all levels of the evolutionary process to greater and greater complexity," he wrote. "He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves."
The Vatican Observatory, which Coyne heads, is one of the oldest astronomical research institutions in the world. It is based in the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo south of Rome.
Last week,
Pope Benedict XVI waded indirectly into the evolution debate by saying the universe was made by an "intelligent project" and criticizing those who in the name of science say its creation was without direction or order.
Questions about the Vatican's position on evolution were raised in July by Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn.
In a New York Times column, Schoenborn seemed to back intelligent design and dismissed a 1996 statement by
Pope John Paul II that evolution was "more than just a hypothesis." Schoenborn said the late pope's statement was "rather vague and unimportant."
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Wow, *claps* - this makes me hate the clergy a little less now :) If the opinion is shared amongst many of them, then Im really gonna have to find another reason to hate them (although I'm sure that won't be hard :D).
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by the title I thought you meant the Software company
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Nothing new, but its still a good thing.
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Well said, Catholic Church! Bravo!
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I desperately want to think they might actually be changing their views a bit. But the truth probably is, the Church does not want a middle ground on God and science, which is what ID tried to be.
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That man has my respect.
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I desperately want to think they might actually be changing their views a bit. But the truth probably is, the Church does not want a middle ground on God and science, which is what ID tried to be.
And what's wrong with this? To compromise religion with fact is as wrong as to compromise fact with religion. They are too seperate areas, and if you completely dismiss one, that's fine, your entitled to your opinion, but you can hardly expect an organization who's entite function and existance is spiritual to start dealing in science, any more than you can expect scientists to deal with intelligent design.
ID benefits neither side. Proof denies faith.
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That's an interesting point. And a good one. And I never said there was anything wrong with it. Far be it from me to dicate what the Church should think. It's just I've never trusted certain religious groups. Point in fact, I despise a small number of people within them, because it seems to me that some of them (*cough* Religious Right *cough*) cannot seem to accept the fact that there must always be a secular world.
They also annoy me with crap like Pat Robertson saying that Dover voted God out of their city by rejecting ID. Doesn't he know that there are other ways of bringing God into a community than school teaching?
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I've said this before...
Science tries to state the provable, Religion tries to explain the unprovable.
If you skim through Genesis and the stages of creation, it's not too different from what evolution would look like. If God were to have set up some kind of Imax show for someone in biblical times, I imagine they'd probably describe it like in Genesis, considering they wouldn't have the physics and biology knowledge of the last couple hundred years or so.
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While I don't deny that this is encouraging, most of the strongest advocates for teaching creationism are Christians who would not even regard the Catholic Church as a legitimate institution.
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I.E. Protestants...
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While I don't deny that this is encouraging, most of the strongest advocates for teaching creationism are Christians who would not even regard the Catholic Church as a legitimate institution.
Catholics = Christians. They're catholic Christians, the others are protestant Christians, but it's all the sae big group.
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You misunderstand me. I am well aware that they are all Christians. I was saying that many of the Christians who are advocating creationism in schools would tell you that Catholics are not Christians. Hardcore Baptists, evangelicals, and the various non-denominational fringe churches tend to have little room in their religious worlds for Catholics, Episcopalians, other mainstream Protestants, and basically anyone whose interpretation of Christianity is something other than "Jesus saves."
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He'd get better returns if he invested.
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The even bigger problem being that there's plenty of Catholics who staunchly claim they are "Catholics not Christians".
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Good.
Now for their next miracle, they should dismantle the religion and all will be set straight. Next up: Judaism
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Good.
Now for their next miracle, they should dismantle the religion and all will be set straight. Next up: Judaism
They tried that, didn't work.
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The even bigger problem being that there's plenty of Catholics who staunchly claim they are "Catholics not Christians".
Of course, that makes them Christians and not Catholics...
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The even bigger problem being that there's plenty of Catholics who staunchly claim they are "Catholics not Christians".
They probably don't want to be associated with the various protestant churches who think all Catholics are going to hell.
Actually...what kind of dumbass Catholic says they aren't Christian in any way other than a smartalik one meant to rat on "bible thumpers"? :D
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The even bigger problem being that there's plenty of Catholics who staunchly claim they are "Catholics not Christians".
They probably don't want to be associated with the various protestant churches who think all Catholics are going to hell.
Actually...what kind of dumbass Catholic says they aren't Christian in any way other than a smartalik one meant to rat on "bible thumpers"? :D
And I'm sure they then promptly go off and convince themselves that the Protestants, Christian or otherwise, are all going to hell too.
Both are as bad as each other, the Catholic church has just been doing it longer.
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The Catholic Church condemns nothing about other religions that is morally good (for the purposes of this...morally good = being nice, and I know some of you will still nitpick). From the Church's (admittedly biased for Christianity) view any religion that brings you closer to God brings you closer to Jesus (since they have the whole Jesus = God thing going on). So basically...all good Christians of any denomination, Muslims, Jews, whatever others that don't go around killing people for fun, are set...
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Since the Catholic church is a worldwide organization and ID is largely a US problem, I can easily see why the Vatican would give the ID "movement" the proverbial finger. After all, there's no reason to destroy your image worldwide to back an argument that basically amounts to an insult to modern progress. Not that the Catholic church has the best record on such things, but it's not in their best interests to push someone elses embarresment... I mean agenda.
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Exactly. It makes the catholic church look more modern than the reactionary dinosaurs who are pushing ID. The catholic church definately appreciate that kind of publicity because too often it looks the opposite way round.
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Worth noticing that the Catholic Church is against biognesis, though. They probably appreciate evolution is something they can bend biblical mythology/God around quite easily.
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When I was a little kid, I never got why the "religious people and the science people" all argued over the creation of the universe. Why couldn't the religious people say "God farted the big bang, things run smoothely after that. He reserves the right to intervene but doesn't all the time."
...still wondering that.
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Because that's Deism, and Deism doesn't sit right with most people.
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It's not Deism if God can intervene whenever he wants, is it? Just saying he's not up there arranging DNA molecules.
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Close enough, though. The basic idea that God set the universe in motion but isn't responsible for our circumstances is still an idea that doesn't seem to fit naturally with people.
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That is essentially what the Church preaches, though; God gave us the right to choose, and now he's sitting back and letting us choose. He reserves the right to interfere, however.
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Well you're talking ethics, now. I was just referring to the idea that God created nature but did not shape its course.
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Funny thing, aint it?
If he created nature and all it's laws (biologicals ones) then in a indirect way he did shape the course of development.....in a way :D Or did he?
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We're all going to hell anyway. As we know from South Park, only the Mormons and Saddam Hussein will go to heaven.
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Dance parties with Satan...woohoo