Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Deepblue on November 23, 2005, 07:18:47 pm
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While there have been problems with 360s over-heating in poorly ventillated areas, it looks like the "massive" hardware problems are more hearsay than anything else.
http://www.1up.com/news/0001ab32/sony.php?3.asm
Sony Employees Caught in Act
November 23, 2005 (7:04 PM EST)
By Jeff Wagoner, CF Editor
Tokyo (AP)-
As cries of Xbox 360 defects in the United States have consumed the online world in the past 48 hours since the launch, it has been discovered that Sony is apparently the fuel to the fire. Known as "Project Light Flame" it has been revealed that third-party employees of a Sony subsidiary named Koyeo are actually being paid to insight negative views upon the newly released console. Why you ask? Because Sony themselves are gearing up for a launch of their new console, the Playstation 3. More news to come as soon as it's available...
It's never a good idea to spring for a first edition, nonetheless, first the rootkit and now this. BAD SONY!!!
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Yeah, I'm sure these (http://www.flickr.com/photos/80491849@N00/) screenshots were faked too... :p
It's not just hearsay.
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While there have been problems with 360s over-heating in poorly ventillated areas, it looks like the "massive" hardware problems are more hearsay than anything else.
I like the fact that you don't bother to read. Pay attention to what's quoted.
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That sounds like a pretty "massive" fault to me. Many console owners put their consoles in poorly ventilated places where they keep their VCR, DVD Player and whatever else. It's bad design. Neither my PS2 or Gamecube does that.
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Poof error 45, 46 and 47 pop up on the screen. Followed by some messed up audio and scrambled garbage on the screen..
Yep. They crash.
The good note is I found it not to be a problem with the console but the power supply! That big ugly nightmare of a power supply gets hot sitting on carpet.
If you start crashing suspend the PSU by the cord so air can flow better and it will not crash anymore after it cools off.
This was posted on a local Weather forum, so it's more of the power supply cord, than the system, and that needs to be fixed quick.
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So Sony was just making this worse, figures. They certainly made Windows security a lot worse with their rootkits.
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That sounds like a pretty "massive" fault to me. Many console owners put their consoles in poorly ventilated places where they keep their VCR, DVD Player and whatever else. It's bad design. Neither my PS2 or Gamecube does that.
Last time I checked a PS2 and GCN were NOT running a tricore processor clocked at 3.2 Ghz with a 500 Mhz GPU. Consoles are becoming much more like PCs, so that means care for them is going to have to change appropriately.
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Deepblue posts a sony bashing thread...no kidding
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Regardless of what's going on, it's definetly a heat problem. Sony's console will probably have it as well, along with anything else that's using newer nex-gen hardware. Lockups like the guy posted on Flickr, especially with the video that's attached to one of the photos that shows the crash in action, make it look like the video card or subsystem is getting too damn hot. Anyone who's experienced with overclocking thier videocard and hit the max clocks would have seen the tell-tale lines on thier computer screen. I know I have once, mine were little triangles though running in vertical lines. I've also heard that older ATI videocards with bad memory chips would do this exact same thing. I'm betting on a heat problem though. Newer, faster heat generating hardware needs to BREATHE, and it's a shame that MS didnt' think of a way to provide better active cooling for thier components.
Watch, next thing we'll see is good ol' Jacko saying the XBox 360 is bad for kids cause it will burn down homes!
ookay.. i'm going to bed now..
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Well, in defense of deepblue, whether or not you're a fan of the x360, sony resorting to viral mudslinging in the console wars is certainly news. Something I'd expect from politicians. As for the problems themselves, look like heat issues to me. Certainly not the worst problem a console has seen on release, certainly not the hardest thing in the universe to solve.
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Last time I checked a PS2 and GCN were NOT running a tricore processor clocked at 3.2 Ghz with a 500 Mhz GPU. Consoles are becoming much more like PCs, so that means care for them is going to have to change appropriately.
It's a MS design problem. Was the original Xbox running three power processors? Nope. It had a celeron. Did it overheat? Yes.
It's perfectly possible to design a system with multiple power processors that doesn't overheat. Apple is selling quad core G5 boxes. They're designed well, they probably don't overheat and crash. Putting three CPUs in a console and not designing for extra cooling is just stupidity on MS's part; heat management in confined spaces is an obvious requirement for entertainment center hardware. Not designing for that is Microsoft's fault.
There shouldn't be any burden on the consumer to take special care to keep the Xbox 360 cool.
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I'd like to see some conformation of Sony actually starting this "rumour" beyond a link that gives a 404. I'm not saying Sony wouldn't do this, but I just find the notion of MS designing shoddy consoles to be far, far more likely than Sony risking their 'reputation' to orchestrate a moronic rumour that won't do a lick of harm to Xbox360 sales...
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It looks like this console purists are gonna have to find out how much love a proper piece of hardware needs to run properly. (dont get me wrong i was reaered on master systems and nes before i got my first 286 :D )
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Was the original Xbox running three power processors? Nope. It had a celeron.
No, it had a lower end P3.
It's perfectly possible to design a system with multiple power processors that doesn't overheat. Apple is selling quad core G5 boxes. They're designed well, they probably don't overheat and crash.
You're missing the point. If the XBox 360 was put in that type of environment, it wouldn't crash either. If this wonder Mac of yours was put into the same confined space that people put their new Xboxes into, it would surely overheat and crash.
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But it's still bad engineering by Microsoft, or whoever designed the case.
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Indeed. Regardless of how it would operate elsewhere the point is it was meant to operate under these conditions and doesn't.
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Short and Sweet version: Xbox 360 is a piece of ****, Sony is run by a bunch of douches, and PC's >>>> Consoles.
This is not news.
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Interesting, but not wholly unexpected I feel. There's a lot at stake here after all...
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Sony capitalizing on the ****ness of the Xbox sounds like a good strategy, especially since none of this is untrue. If they were submitting false reports that'd be wrong, but just simply bashing the thing because it blows sounds good.
However what also wouldn't surprise me is that Microsoft is using Sony to divert some of the attention from the fact their console was pre-maturely released.
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Both MS and Sony will be using the internet in a gossip spreading strategy for their advertising. I remember, in particular, joystiq.com discovering that a number of emails sent to them 'informing' the release of the first 360 demo machines, had actually been sent from an advertising agency. Also there's the case of Activision hiring marketers to post fake, glowing reviews of Driver 3 on various internet forums (http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/drivergate/drivergate.htm).
(It's also why I'm so deeply suspicious of anything Deepblue posts. And amused by the delightful irony of this.......)
Albeit that link gives a 404, so I can't even see the content. The only related link I saw on 1up is http://xbox360.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3145847, where they confirm they've experienced crashes themselves (and also point out a particular story is very dodgy).
I've read that, incidentally, it's suggested (http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61903) the 360 crashes are due to a PSU overhead when it's kept behind something (y'know, like a cabinet, TV, or where the rest of your cables go). Given the well publicised problems the original Xbox had (including one that caused a housefire - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/23/xbox_blaze/ - and also the less well publicised slimline PS2 problems of a similar ilk), it'd be very surprising that sort of situation would be allowed to happen. Given a homogenous machine, that sort of technical error on a new release is (well, would be if it is widespread) indicative of extremely shoddy practice. It doesn't matter how similar the machine is to a PC, the fact is it's a single hardware combination. We don't excuse cars with serious faults because they're complicated, after all.
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No, it had a lower end P3.
Wrong (http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2001/december/011206_More_On_Xbox_CPU/011206_More_On_Xbox_CPU.htm).
You're missing the point. If the XBox 360 was put in that type of environment, it wouldn't crash either. If this wonder Mac of yours was put into the same confined space that people put their new Xboxes into, it would surely overheat and crash.
The difference being that the quad-core G5 isn't meant to be put in an entertainment center cabinet. Note that there have been reports of Xbox 360s overheating on carpet in an open space, so it *will* crash in "that type of environment".
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IIRC the Xbox processor was a modified P3 which used (in a sort of vague non-specific summary) a reduced (16 stage) pipeline (as the >16 stage pipelines used by the commercial processors were purely used to aritificially increase the advertised clock speed; pipelines over 15/16 stages pretty much lose any theoretical benefit because of the error handling required), had a number of specialised floating point operations added to the instruction set, and IIRc used a copperwire core (greater conductivity....may have mixed up the specific materials here).
(http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:MNXVsYp6EeAJ:www.2002.arspentia.org/8lb3oz/xbox+arspentia+xbox+8lb3oz&hl=en&client=firefox-a)
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Your link says it's a mobile celeron. It's almost the same as a P3, but not quite. (Though all celerons are basically modified pentiums anyway. Modern celerons are just reject P4s.)
All of the Celeron's that Intel makes nowadays are aparently identical to the Pentium 3, and they all use the Coppermine core. There is one major difference, the Celeron has 128KB of cache. Intel's 733MHz mobile Celeron chips all have a 133MHz front side bus and 128KB of L2 cache identical to that in the Xbox. The chip inside the Xbox is the equivalent to that of a Mobile Celeron (the mobile Celeron has 8 way associative cache).
BTW: The Xbox processor had a 16 stage pipeline? That's rather surprising, as I thought the P3 architecture had a more normal number of pipelines unlike the insane P4s (20 stage pipelines, eek!). The Wikipedia article on the P3 talks about "instruction pipeline stalls" in the Coppermine, which seems to suggest a long pipeline too. Weird.
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About the heat... As aldo already pointed out, it seems to be the PSU that's overheating, as people have been able to fix crashes by suspending the PSU in the air over a shoebox thus allowing greater heat dissapation. The console itself is very good about heat dissapation it seems with heat pipes and ventillation, though the fans are a bit loud (not as loud as the original Xbox however).
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MS has put up support pages as well...
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817385/
http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=kb;en-us;818358
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/907588
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/907536/
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/907533/
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/907534/
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/906652/
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About the heat... As aldo already pointed out, it seems to be the PSU that's overheating, as people have been able to fix crashes by suspending the PSU in the air over a shoebox thus allowing greater heat dissapation. The console itself is very good about heat dissapation it seems with heat pipes and ventillation, though the fans are a bit loud (not as loud as the original Xbox however).
So, what you're saying is; unlike every single other console that ever came before it, the Xbox360 cannot simply be placed on the carpet (as i'm sure many, many console owners do, including myself), but it must be suspended in the freakin' air or else it will overheat. If that doesn't scream 'rushed release' or 'major design flaw', I damn well don't know what else would...
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Your link says it's a mobile celeron. It's almost the same as a P3, but not quite. (Though all celerons are basically modified pentiums anyway. Modern celerons are just reject P4s.)
All of the Celeron's that Intel makes nowadays are aparently identical to the Pentium 3, and they all use the Coppermine core. There is one major difference, the Celeron has 128KB of cache. Intel's 733MHz mobile Celeron chips all have a 133MHz front side bus and 128KB of L2 cache identical to that in the Xbox. The chip inside the Xbox is the equivalent to that of a Mobile Celeron (the mobile Celeron has 8 way associative cache).
BTW: The Xbox processor had a 16 stage pipeline? That's rather surprising, as I thought the P3 architecture had a more normal number of pipelines unlike the insane P4s (20 stage pipelines, eek!). The Wikipedia article on the P3 talks about "instruction pipeline stalls" in the Coppermine, which seems to suggest a long pipeline too. Weird.
Um... I'm not sure, actually. I think it may have actually had 10 stage int and 16 stage fp pipelines, but I'm sure I remember reading at the time that the Xbox processor had a reduced size pipeline from the retail version, i.e. what I did wrote earlier. But what I've been reading suggests the P3 was only ever 10 stages, which may mean I was talking out my arse :) there. There was definately a pipeline modification made to the xbox version, though; there'd have to be the for new fp ops, I think.
That page I linked to, incidentally, was part of something I worked on for uni (although I worked on the Gamecube stuff - here (http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:4CNfeB5TOlMJ:www.2002.arspentia.org/8lb3oz/gamecube+arspentia+gamecube+8lb3oz&hl=en&client=firefox-a)). So I'm pretty sure it's correct for the time, which was pre-release; IIRC the pipeline stage numbers for the xbox would have come from comparing them to the GC and absolute bastard that was the PS2 arch.
About the heat... As aldo already pointed out, it seems to be the PSU that's overheating, as people have been able to fix crashes by suspending the PSU in the air over a shoebox thus allowing greater heat dissapation. The console itself is very good about heat dissapation it seems with heat pipes and ventillation, though the fans are a bit loud (not as loud as the original Xbox however).
It's not 'very good about heat dissipation' if all it's done is move the overheating parts outside. That's like saying my Pc is very good at heat dissipation because I moved the motherboard to sit in the fridge. If the problem is actually this (rather large AFAIK) PSU, then that would strike me as a botch - especially if they put it outside the machine for exactly that purpose. It'd also be something very easy to test (if perhaps not to fix), and I can't help but wonder if they decided to rush the solution by just sticking it outside the machine, in order to meet the launch target.
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Sounds like it.
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They stuck it outside the machine to keep the console itself from being fatter than it already is.
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That doesn't sound like it.
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That doesn't sound like it.
I dunno. It did actually occur to me that they might have deliberately done so in order to have the best (i.e. most marketable) design; on the other hand I think it's very silly to actually design something on the basis of looks ahead of actually making sure the entire device will fit within your, well, design. I mean, if the crashes are PSU related, it effectively means they've compromised stability (namely the ability to put the PSU within a heat/ventilation-controlled environment like, for example, similar spec - if larger in size - PCs) in order to achieve an artistic effect.
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As far as I'm concerned the design itself is atrocious. It's as if someone with no sense of aesthetics designed the box. The only reason I would figure it looks the way it does is because they wanted something edgy that wasn't black as was the vogue fad with the second installment of the consoles. The only white appliances I have are the stove and the refridgirator, and I can tell you for sure that if I was to buy the console, it wouldn't stand next to either of the two. As far as marketability goes, anyone with any sense of style will find the box to be butt ugly. The only saving grace is the fact that people will be able to customize the look it would seem, by replacing the front part or some stupid **** like that. Obviously they didn't have enough time to think about it, so they just chose the cheapest design possible and ran with it. After all, everyone can understand the need to save on the production costs.
*ahem*
I think I see Deepblue coming to tell me how the box is beautiful and the handcontroller comfortable and easy to use. **** I better run before my eyes start to bleed.
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I just called it fat... It's quite a monstrosity.
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http://pc.ign.com/articles/668/668631p1.html
That is all.
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lol!
They did one of those lists for every platform to make their other readers feel good. Some of the lists are quite weak... See the top 10 reasons to wait for a PS3. One of the reasons is "you can still preorder it." WTH???
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http://invisionfree.com/forums/worldofstuart/index.php?showtopic=2093
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Wow. Without clicking on it, I looked at the topic name and I thought - rootkit. Gotta be. Then I looked at the poster and thought, no, Sony/PS3 bashing thread with at least one reference to how the 360 is better than it.
No people, I'm not psychich. Deepblue's a dumbass.
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! (http://dwl.xbox-scene.com/video/Xbox-360-Scratch-Disks3.wmv)
Also, before you get to the fantastic idea of "OMGZORZ WHY WOULD YOU MOVE IT WHILE IT'S ON, WTFHAX!", try thinking about people having kids and wives/sisters/whatevers who clean and aren't that into the XBOXAR TEKNOLOGAY!.
Seriously
Oh, man! Now I REALLY want* an Xbox 360!
* Don't want at all.
Truth.
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Er, well that'll happen in just about any high speed drive.
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Not in the one that is expected to be shifted around.
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! (http://dwl.xbox-scene.com/video/Xbox-360-Scratch-Disks3.wmv)
Also, before you get to the fantastic idea of "OMGZORZ WHY WOULD YOU MOVE IT WHILE IT'S ON, WTFHAX!", try thinking about people having kids and wives/sisters/whatevers who clean and aren't that into the XBOXAR TEKNOLOGAY!.
Might I ask, what was that god-aweful sound when they turned on the '360? That cannot be the actual sound of '360!
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Not in the one that is expected to be shifted around.
You expect to be shifting a console around? What for? Bludgeoning people?
On a related topic, I have not experienced any issues albiet the thing (DVD drive primarily) is only a bit less loud than my PC. And PGR3 + Geometry Wars (that's right! best use of 5 bucks EVER) kick much arse.
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Wow. Without clicking on it, I looked at the topic name and I thought - rootkit. Gotta be. Then I looked at the poster and thought, no, Sony/PS3 bashing thread with at least one reference to how the 360 is better than it.
No people, I'm not psychich. Deepblue's a dumbass.
Actually, once you read the thread, you'll come to the realization that you are the idiot here.
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http://invisionfree.com/forums/worldofstuart/index.php?showtopic=2093
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/xbox360.ars (you might appreciate that)
1. I'm not going to defend lazy developers.
2. Ubisoft is not one of these:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25755
The bandwidth on the pictures has been used, but you can look at the reactions. The pictures spoke a LOT about what things are capable though when I saw them.
Pwned.
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You expect to be shifting a console around? What for? Bludgeoning people?
Dusting, p'raps?
Think of the wife or SO who likes to keep her guy's stuff in tip-top shape. "Lemme just lift this up and dust behind it; that way he won't have dust blocking anything important." Surely not a far-fetched scenario.
It wasn't as if the guy in the video was banging it around, either; it was just a simple, soft movement.
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Not in the one that is expected to be shifted around.
Er... well, without using a hard attaching drive I'm not sure it's very easy to compensate. Which admittedly it probably should have been in this case, but they do cost a lot more.
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And PGR3 + Geometry Wars (that's right! best use of 5 bucks EVER) kick much arse.
Wow, paying 5 quid for buying a game that came for free in the last version & which you could probably find (a clone of) for free on the internet - now that's progress!
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Not in the one that is expected to be shifted around.
You expect to be shifting a console around?
Like OMGZORZ maybe because THEY INTENDED IT FOR SHIFTING AROUND? The idea's been there since Playstation 2 made the stall, and the Xbox 360 follows the "put it down any way you like" fad, which would be great if not for the HORRIBLE HORRIBLE SIDEEFFECTS.
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which would be great if not for the HORRIBLE HORRIBLE SIDEEFFECTS.
LoL. I don't know why, but that struck me as terribly funny.
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Do laptop drives do this type of damage to CD's if they're spinning in thier drives? I honestly havent seen one do that, and we have four different types of laptops where I work. All of them are at least 16X drives, I believe the newer dell machine has at least a 32 X in it. Laptop owners need to move, obviously, and you can move and rotate and do all that stuff to a CD that's in a laptop drive - while spinning full speed - and get none of the disc grinding like you'll get in the 360. If people meant for the 360 NOT to be moved, they should have designed it so it will lay flat, instead of stand up on end. Either that or engineer a better drive. I read over on wired that there's a class action lawsuit in the works. A rep from M$ says something to the effect of "these problems occur on just a very small fraction of the units". I think it's a rushed product using inferior parts, myself. Let Sony and Nintendo learn from these mistakes, and we'll see who comes out with a much more reliable product.
At least when you game primarily on the PC, you KNOW what's going into your system, and YOU make sure they all work properly. And if you have half a brain, your cooling setup will be much better than any mass-produced product that's prone to manufacturing defects. Just another reason why I feel consoles are silly.
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And PGR3 + Geometry Wars (that's right! best use of 5 bucks EVER) kick much arse.
Wow, paying 5 quid for buying a game that came for free in the last version & which you could probably find (a clone of) for free on the internet - now that's progress!
Go eat an unpeeled lemon! Geometry Wars: RE has to be experienced to appreciated. It's like an acid trip, without the nasty side effects.
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Do laptop drives do this type of damage to CD's if they're spinning in thier drives? I honestly havent seen one do that, and we have four different types of laptops where I work. All of them are at least 16X drives, I believe the newer dell machine has at least a 32 X in it. Laptop owners need to move, obviously, and you can move and rotate and do all that stuff to a CD that's in a laptop drive - while spinning full speed - and get none of the disc grinding like you'll get in the 360. If people meant for the 360 NOT to be moved, they should have designed it so it will lay flat, instead of stand up on end. Either that or engineer a better drive. I read over on wired that there's a class action lawsuit in the works. A rep from M$ says something to the effect of "these problems occur on just a very small fraction of the units". I think it's a rushed product using inferior parts, myself. Let Sony and Nintendo learn from these mistakes, and we'll see who comes out with a much more reliable product.
At least when you game primarily on the PC, you KNOW what's going into your system, and YOU make sure they all work properly. And if you have half a brain, your cooling setup will be much better than any mass-produced product that's prone to manufacturing defects. Just another reason why I feel consoles are silly.
FYI, PS2s and GCNs do the same thing if you shake them around. Then again, the 360 drive is a little faster and as such, incredibly vicious to disks that get cought in the cross-fire.
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No they don't.
I flipped and even shook my PS2. Standing right there undamaged. But it is 4x or something so it's not expected.
However if you're making a faster drive, FOR ****'S SAKE - MAKE IT SAFER.
Also, there is no "cross-fire". There is blatant disregard for your property by releasing an unfinished and abysmally dissapointing machine onto the market.
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Teh Sony fanboi!
And yes, gamecubes will shred disks too if you budge them enough. It killed my friends copy of Metroid Prime. :(
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Teh XBOX Payroll PARASITE!!!
As far as your Gamecube comment, I think we all know that just never happened.
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And PGR3 + Geometry Wars (that's right! best use of 5 bucks EVER) kick much arse.
Wow, paying 5 quid for buying a game that came for free in the last version & which you could probably find (a clone of) for free on the internet - now that's progress!
Go eat an unpeeled lemon! Geometry Wars: RE has to be experienced to appreciated. It's like an acid trip, without the nasty side effects.
Go. Eat. An. Unpeeled. Lemon.
Wow, you're good. How did you get so good? I'm just reeling here from your biting, sarcastic incisve wit. Go eat an unpeeled lemon. How do you do that? It's just so.... ****ing inane. Give me a break. You've been whoring that console like a bad 70s pimp whores his eastern european girlfriend, and I'm getting sick of it.
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Are you bloody kidding me?
"There is blatant disregard for your property by releasing an unfinished and abysmally dissapointing machine onto the market."
I'm willing to bet you would have no bloody idea whatsoever. I doubt you have played any of the games, much less played them online or with a friend. Furthermore, what's to stop me from accussing you of being a PS Payroll PARASITE!!! Oh wait, BECAUSE I'M NOT AN IDIOT.
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Lemon FTW! It is the superior citrus fruit.
Think about it, Lemon Curd, Lemonade, Lemon peelings on food...
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Are you bloody kidding me?
"There is blatant disregard for your property by releasing an unfinished and abysmally dissapointing machine onto the market."
I'm willing to bet you would have no bloody idea whatsoever. I doubt you have played any of the games, much less played them online or with a friend. Furthermore, what's to stop me from accussing you of being a PS Payroll PARASITE!!! Oh wait, BECAUSE I'M NOT AN IDIOT.
Perhaps because I've not went onto every thread about a current or next gen console writing statements with the express purpose of either a) hyping a particular companies machine or b) attacking the primary rival of said machine in a). Nor, when said machine (a) again) is criticised, have I felt a necessity to true and refute every single criticism in the most rabid sense possible.
EDIT; you can;t go wrong with lemon curd, that is true.
Incidentally, I like this quote RE: the xbox360 (specifically talking about the paucity of true 'killer app' style games in the launch lineup);
"Right now, all it is is a convenient idiot indicator. Got one? Then you're a gullible twat with more pound notes than brain cells. That's how it works."
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Are you bloody kidding me?
"There is blatant disregard for your property by releasing an unfinished and abysmally dissapointing machine onto the market."
I'm willing to bet you would have no bloody idea whatsoever. I doubt you have played any of the games, much less played them online or with a friend. Furthermore, what's to stop me from accussing you of being a PS Payroll PARASITE!!! Oh wait, BECAUSE I'M NOT AN IDIOT.
Perhaps because I've not went onto every thread about a current or next gen console writing statements with the express purpose of either a) hyping a particular companies machine or b) attacking the primary rival of said machine in a). Nor, when said machine (a) again) is criticised, have I felt a necessity to true and refute every single criticism in the most rabid sense possible.
EDIT; you can;t go wrong with lemon curd, that is true.
Incidentally, I like this quote RE: the xbox360 (specifically talking about the paucity of true 'killer app' style games in the launch lineup);
"Right now, all it is is a convenient idiot indicator. Got one? Then you're a gullible twat with more pound notes than brain cells. That's how it works."
Or you got lucky and won one. 'Tis true though. Anyone willing to spend $400 on a console is impatient and will pay for it.
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Deepblue, use the edit function. Your posts look slightly less annoying if there are not in groups of three. And quite frankly, I have read through much of this thread and I can't find a single point with which I would side with you on. The design flaws of the 360 (and they are design flaws) are significant. End of story. Of course, I seem to remember the same type of thing being an issue with the original Xbox back in the day; it wasn't until the second revision that the things got truely stable. Anyone else sense a trend here?
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Remember PS2 DRE??? Yeah, it happens with every new console (except Nintendo, they make damned bulletproof hardware).
Incidentally, it's a quick fix. Just place a few foam pads inside the top of the DVD drive and you can prevent the disk from hitting the lense. I'd expect it to be fixed in V.1.1.0.
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Ah, the perils of a rushed release........
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Incidentally, it's a quick fix. Just place a few foam pads inside the top of the DVD drive and you can prevent the disk from hitting the lense. I'd expect it to be fixed in V.1.1.0.
Does the omission of such a quick and important fix not then suggest the extent to which it was rushed?
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I'm still thinking about lemons.
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/me gives vyper lemons
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/me gives vyper lemons
I'll asume that you have enough of these "lemons" to go around?
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No.
/me gives WeatherOp a lime
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About the drives though. I honestly cannot believe that the lens would hit the disc. If it did, that would render the lens useless. I would think so anyway, because the lens focusing mechanism be borked in the first place, along with the possibility of a scratched or sheared off lens. If the disc is wobbling inside of the unit, why not make a drive that operates like a laptop drive, where you have to snap the CD into a spindle? Dell makes such crappy drives for thier desktops, the low-profile drives that is, and THEY seem to work just fine. I know you cant go and shove a 5 1/4 DVD drive into that 360, but there ARE low-profile drives available that are specifically made to withstand movement. We wouldnt have CD/DVD combo burners in our laptops without that sort of tech now would we? Honestly. What the HELL was M$ thinking?
It's bad for M$ to do thier test marketing whenever the product is FOR SALE. This should be done BEFORE they release. Give me a break. It's an honest-to-god rushed release. Even if these problems honestly happen on a "very small fraction" of units, the potential still exists for it to happen to YOUR deck, if you have already purchased one. Releasing "versions" of decks is incredibly dumb in my opinion. We have overheating power supplies, overheating graphics systems, hungry hungry CD-Rom drives, and the to-be-expected trademark M$ crashing.
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Are you bloody kidding me?
"There is blatant disregard for your property by releasing an unfinished and abysmally dissapointing machine onto the market."
I'm willing to bet you would have no bloody idea whatsoever. I doubt you have played any of the games, much less played them online or with a friend. Furthermore, what's to stop me from accussing you of being a PS Payroll PARASITE!!! Oh wait, BECAUSE I'M NOT AN IDIOT.
OMG LIKE OMGZORZ HAR HAR YOU CAUGHT ME!!!!!
To reiterate, the difference between you and me is that I don't post and start threads about how anything is so AWESOME, that "anything" being a retarded piece of overpriced equipment, that two weeks ago you knew nothing about yourself. I post opinions on subject matter that I'm unbiased towards, using logical deduction of facts, then deciding.
We all KNOW that you, your friend or your family depends on the 360 selling well, as well as its games. Your posts SCREAM it. Mine don't.
Get it?
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mummy and daddy are fighting again :(
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/me gives vyper lemons
/me creates lemonade and shares
See, we can all be nice! :D
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I just find it amusing that a Microsoft fanboy is aghast at SONY for what amounts to 'poor business practices'.
But as for the crashes and defects, I maintain that anyone who buys a first-generation version of a console is just paying to beta-test it, especially with the dearth of games that are currently available. If Oblivion had been out as planned, it would've probably been worth the risk.
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mummy and daddy are fighting again :(
Who is who? :D
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The one who does the beating is usually daddy, so that'd be me.
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/me gives vyper lemons
/me creates lemonade and shares
See, we can all be nice! :D
It's hope for ze internets!
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About the drives though. I honestly cannot believe that the lens would hit the disc. If it did, that would render the lens useless. I would think so anyway, because the lens focusing mechanism be borked in the first place, along with the possibility of a scratched or sheared off lens. If the disc is wobbling inside of the unit, why not make a drive that operates like a laptop drive, where you have to snap the CD into a spindle? Dell makes such crappy drives for thier desktops, the low-profile drives that is, and THEY seem to work just fine. I know you cant go and shove a 5 1/4 DVD drive into that 360, but there ARE low-profile drives available that are specifically made to withstand movement. We wouldnt have CD/DVD combo burners in our laptops without that sort of tech now would we? Honestly. What the HELL was M$ thinking?
It's bad for M$ to do thier test marketing whenever the product is FOR SALE. This should be done BEFORE they release. Give me a break. It's an honest-to-god rushed release. Even if these problems honestly happen on a "very small fraction" of units, the potential still exists for it to happen to YOUR deck, if you have already purchased one. Releasing "versions" of decks is incredibly dumb in my opinion. We have overheating power supplies, overheating graphics systems, hungry hungry CD-Rom drives, and the to-be-expected trademark M$ crashing.
It wouldn't be the lense itself, it's the casing around the lense that's crashing into the surface of the disk. Even in the most high-end CD drive, the possibility still exists for contact between the lense and the CD itself, so you need to protect the lense at the expense of the CD as the drive is the more expensive part. You do try to minimize the number of times that happens though, which apparently MS forgot to consider.
As for the revisions of consoles, the truth of the matter is that all console makers do just that. Usually it's so minor that the revision differences would take a hardware expert to even notice, much less understand why it was important (economics more often than design flaws). The problem is that the latest round of console makers (Microsoft being the best example because it has no prior experience in that market) are trying to get away with Beta testing on the first release version, rather than doing a proper test in-house first. And sadly, they will probably come out ahead as the cost of replacing the machines that are defective is likely less than the cost of actually doing a development run of hardware.
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noone a fan of test driven hardware development?
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noone a fan of test driven hardware development?
Not when it costs 350 odd quid.
(50 quid for the broken game, in case you're wondering....)
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did anyone show deepblue that link that we had over at SG about the 360 repair tool?
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Are you bloody kidding me?
"There is blatant disregard for your property by releasing an unfinished and abysmally dissapointing machine onto the market."
I'm willing to bet you would have no bloody idea whatsoever. I doubt you have played any of the games, much less played them online or with a friend. Furthermore, what's to stop me from accussing you of being a PS Payroll PARASITE!!! Oh wait, BECAUSE I'M NOT AN IDIOT.
OMG LIKE OMGZORZ HAR HAR YOU CAUGHT ME!!!!!
To reiterate, the difference between you and me is that I don't post and start threads about how anything is so AWESOME, that "anything" being a retarded piece of overpriced equipment, that two weeks ago you knew nothing about yourself. I post opinions on subject matter that I'm unbiased towards, using logical deduction of facts, then deciding.
We all KNOW that you, your friend or your family depends on the 360 selling well, as well as its games. Your posts SCREAM it. Mine don't.
Get it?
EDIT: Having read the following, I've decided to abandon responding to this thread. But the funny picture stays.
BlackDove, please stop baiting other users. Continue to do so and you'll find yourself banned. This is not open to discussion.
Likewise Deepblue, please don't respond to what is obvious flamebaiting. Ignore it and let the staff deal with the idiots who can't behave. These things haven't gone unnoticed.
(http://cliffyb.1up.com/media?id=2534717)
Condemned is waaay scarier than F.E.A.R.
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That's not saying much. :p
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The problem is that the latest round of console makers (Microsoft being the best example because it has no prior experience in that market) are trying to get away with Beta testing on the first release version, rather than doing a proper test in-house first.
So a marked difference from the way they release software then? ;)
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EDIT: Having read the following, I've decided to abandon responding to this thread.
That's good. Learn your place.
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(http://cliffyb.1up.com/media?id=2534717)
Condemned is waaay scarier than F.E.A.R.
This is what I meant about ridiculous out-of-topic advertising, BTW. Little... arguement about increasingly well documented 360 technical issues, and what do we get? A game advert! With unecessary screenshot!
No-ones even bloody mentioned F.E.A.R. in this thread!
Of course, 2 can play that game........
(http://speeddemosarchive.com/gfx/YoshisIsland_2.png)
Yoshi's Island is much better than Sonic!
(see how stupid and pathetic it is?)
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no, I kinda liked yoshi's island.
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no, I kinda liked yoshi's island.
Yoshis Island kicked and does indeed kick arse. But does it have any point whatsoever in this thread?
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*snip*
Condemned is waaay scarier than F.E.A.R.
This is what I meant about ridiculous out-of-topic advertising, BTW. Little... arguement about increasingly well documented 360 technical issues, and what do we get? A game advert! With unecessary screenshot!
No-ones even bloody mentioned F.E.A.R. in this thread!
In Deepblue's defence, I believe his post of the Codemned screenie was simply a poor attempt at humour. Notice the hideously large power thingy for the Xbox360 used as a melee weapon in the screenshot?
Also; Yoshi's Island does indeed kick-arse, rightly so...
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oh, i thought that was a car muffler :wtf:
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oh, i thought that was a car muffler :wtf:
Me too :p
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I really had no clue what it was.
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I really had no clue what it was.
That's because M$ made sure to never show the collossal power converter thingy in any of the ads. Whenever I see an ad for the 360 showing only the sleek, seemingly compact main box, I often think to myself how many people think that's the entire system, when they're really only seeing 2/3rds of it.
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2/3rds is a bit extreme...
But the thing is massive. It has its own fans for fracks sake!
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It has its own fans for fracks sake!
That's more or less expected for a power supply. ;)
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No, it isn't. I have seen many a power converter/supply in my time, for consumer electronics, fans generally aren't a part of them.
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I've never seen a consumer electronics power supply with its own fan/s. Including my LCD TVs' power supply, which seems unecessarily large.
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No, it isn't. I have seen many a power converter/supply in my time, for consumer electronics, fans generally aren't a part of them.
But the fan is not cooling it enough, or else it would not be overheating. :p
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Eh, there's a fan in every self-contained computer power supply I've ever seen.
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I've never heard of an external power supply with its own fans before this one. And I've worked with some truly massive bricks in my day. My laptop's power supply doesn't have a fan, nor did the one that was running a small form factor microtower at work. I understand that the 360 is a high-power device (an issue in and of itself) but the primary reason that the PSU is independently cooled in most towers is because it is a huge contributer to heat in a system by itself and everything that can be done to keep it from hurting the components near it has to be done. When it's external, that concern more or less goes away, and there's still no reason for a simple transformer (and that's essentially all that PSU actually is) to ever overheat under normal working conditions.
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You expect to be shifting a console around?
I've had my vertical standing PS2 fall over from a light breeze/someone breathing in it's general direction.. Is the 360 more stable? If it were to fall over, I imagine that might mess up the disc. *shrugs*
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Eh, there's a fan in every self-contained computer power supply I've ever seen.
I've never seen an external computer PSU, myself. Except for laptop transformers, which I've never seen to have a fan either. To me, shifting the PSU outside for heat reasons sparks thoughts of sloppy/rushed design, and for ergonomic reasons sparks thoughts of laziness.
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I'm not referring to external power supplies; I've seen them in every computer I've taken apart.
Are we not talking about the same thing, or something? Lookie here:
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/power-supply.htm
First Google result for "power supply".
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You're talking about standard tower PSUs. Everyone else is talking about external PSUs, similar to the one used by the 360.
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If the Xbox-360 were being sold as a computer with an integrated power supply, I'd agree with you.
But as it's being sold with a console with an external power supply, which in turn has its own fans, I'd have to say that it's different from most every console I've seen.
There are a lot of things that are technically a computer, but I'd be a bit surprised if I found cooling fans for the power supply to a TV remote.
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I'm not referring to external power supplies; I've seen them in every computer I've taken apart.
Are we not talking about the same thing, or something? Lookie here:
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/power-supply.htm
First Google result for "power supply".
What GW said; talking about external here. Obviously PCs and indeed the likes of consoles have internal PSUs with cooling, but the idea of having an external PSU that needs cooling (via internal fans - which would be the main shocker for me if it has them) and still overheats is something that I myself have never even heard of before now.
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I suppose I can understand the fans on something drawing enough power for a gaming computer, but one thing confuses me from experience.
My computer has a heat problem, it's nothing to do with the PSU, it's the graphics card processor, as with the X-Box, the card is inside the machine, so I have to open the side and point a desk fan in there to keep it cool, even though it has a fan mounted on it. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what is causing the heat problem for the XBox as well.
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Actual the Xbox 360 sucks up more power than a standard gaming rig.
Temperature wise, the Xbox 360 can push out air at 210 degrees.
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Actual the Xbox 360 sucks up more power than a standard gaming rig.
Temperature wise, the Xbox 360 can push out air at 210 degrees.
And yet it would seem the power unit is not correctly designed to handle that.
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And yet it would seem the power unit is not correctly designed to handle that.
*Cough-Rushed design-Cough*
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I blame Marketing.
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I blame Christmas.....
Quite funny how no-one in Japan will buy the new one, either. Only something like 28% sold in the first day and they're already discounting it (http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=62132).
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Quite funny how no-one in Japan will buy the new one, either. Only something like 28% sold in the first day and they're already discounting it (http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=62132).
Not really, the Japanese have always preferred Sony and Nintendo. The simple explination is that almost everyone in Japan can see right through Microsoft's manupulative marketing and see the Xbox360 for what it really is; a POS that costs way too damn much.
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Well, so long as they don't buy King Kong for it.... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4525318.stm)
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Quite funny how no-one in Japan will buy the new one, either. Only something like 28% sold in the first day and they're already discounting it (http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=62132).
Not really, the Japanese have always preferred Sony and Nintendo. The simple explination is that almost everyone in Japan can see right through Microsoft's manupulative marketing and see the Xbox360 for what it really is; a POS that costs way too damn much.
Yet they buy Sony TVs...
(before you scream at me, I have a Sony Trinitron and it is constantly having problems that shouldn't happen on such an expensive TV)...
The Japanese are just xenophopic and nationalistic buyers from what I could see during my 5 years in Tokyo.
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Well, so long as they don't buy King Kong for it.... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4525318.stm)
Damn that would suck for a standard TV... Luckily they can release a patch through XBL.
But getting the 360 version is completely worth it...
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Hmmm, I played King Kong on a 360 at a friend's. Wouldn't say it was too dark, looked mostly pretty nice.
What bugged me though were some clipping errors between Kong and the T-Rex when fighting and overall not-so-impressive animations.
I know, I know ... most games suffer from this, but one might think that on those fancy new-gen consoles they would put that processing power to good use on better animation control/collision detection (instead of of only shiny graphics)
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Hmmm, I played King Kong on a 360 at a friend's. Wouldn't say it was too dark, looked mostly pretty nice.
What bugged me though were some clipping errors between Kong and the T-Rex when fighting and overall not-so-impressive animations.
I know, I know ... most games suffer from this, but one might think that on those fancy new-gen consoles they would put that processing power to good use on better animation control/collision detection (instead of of only shiny graphics)
Costs money that, though. And when your key sales are still on the current gen of consoles.......
EDIT;
Of course, the guys without ADSL or the HD (which is apparently in very short supply) are stuck. bit of a bugger when you need an expensive high-def TV or a 50 quid 'optional' HD (which is only 13GB or so) to just play a game on your telly. Bringing a patch-it-later approach to consoles, as is now possible and would seem likely, would badly hurt gaming.
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Damn that would suck for a standard TV... Luckily they can release a patch through XBL.
Isn't that wonderful. The days when games companies can release buggy, half finished games on the grounds that they can patch them later are finally here for the console! :D
One of the major advantages of the consoles was that the inability to patch meant that the designers of the game had to get it right first time. The fact that there are a limited number of possible specifications was also an advantage. And yet you trumpet the loss of one of the few good points of owning a console rather than a PC as if it was a good thing :rolleyes:
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Damn that would suck for a standard TV... Luckily they can release a patch through XBL.
But getting the 360 version is completely worth it...
Now where is Dr Smart when you need him? Ah, well, the ability to write bad software and promise to "patch it later" on a console just might get him to switch platforms, so that the computer gaming world will never have to see him again.
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Most games do not recieve patches. But if a small issue is discovered after launch, it can be fixed quickly and effectively. The fact that most poeple do not have XBL is motivation enough to make it a solid game at launch.
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But you gotta admit.. it sure looks like it's headed that direction..
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Most games do not recieve patches. But if a small issue is discovered after launch, it can be fixed quickly and effectively. The fact that most poeple do not have XBL is motivation enough to make it a solid game at launch.
I thought Xbox Live was free on the 360 and you just had to pay for the Gold version or something?
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Most games do not recieve patches. But if a small issue is discovered after launch, it can be fixed quickly and effectively. The fact that most poeple do not have XBL is motivation enough to make it a solid game at launch.
I thought Xbox Live was free on the 360 and you just had to pay for the Gold version or something?
Patches & messenger are free, IIRc. Except you still need to shell out for an HD for the former....
The thought of a console game needing a patch is against the whole purpose of consoles. It's a single, standardized environment (or should be), and the only way bugs can be missed is sloppy or rushed testing.
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I shudder to think what'll happen when EA begins launching their titles on the '360, knowing that they can now utilise the buyer as an unofficial beta-tester and simply patch any problems later, a la PC Gamers, which they've used & abused for years... Indeed, this is the beginning of a dark age of consoles...
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Most games do not recieve patches. But if a small issue is discovered after launch, it can be fixed quickly and effectively. The fact that most poeple do not have XBL is motivation enough to make it a solid game at launch.
That's how it started on the PC too. Look back to the days of the 8-bit and 16-bit computers and you'll see no patches there either. There weren't many until the internet became big. Once you could rely on people being able to get patches via the net and magazine cover disks it became simpler to release crappy bug-filled code and fix it along the way than let a deadline slip. The same thing will happen to the console market for exactly the same reason.
But feel free to help pull the chain on your favourite console, trumpeting all the way down the toilet that patching is the best thing ever.
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I shudder to think what'll happen when EA begins launching their titles on the '360, knowing that they can now utilise the buyer as an unofficial beta-tester and simply patch any problems later, a la PC Gamers, which they've used & abused for years... Indeed, this is the beginning of a dark age of consoles...
so, to sum this thread up until now:
matchbox 360 is beta games on a beta console.
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Regarding PSU's... Most of the external ones you see are of a different design to the ttype you're all used to seeing inside your PC case. More of the components in a computer power supply create heat (there are more components in a computer PSU anyhow) and thus more active cooling is required.
As for this thread; I find your insistent heralding of all things xbox despite it's myriad issues and your inability to argue logically quite tiring Deepblue. I have to admit that I was quite a zealous proponent of the Snes' superiority over the Megadrive so I can understand your behaviour somewhat, I must also point out that I was 13 at the time.
As for some of the rest of you there's a very wise, and it would seem under-used phrase that I think needs a mention here. "Don't feed the troll".
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Regarding PSU's... Most of the external ones you see are of a different design to the ttype you're all used to seeing inside your PC case. More of the components in a computer power supply create heat (there are more components in a computer PSU anyhow) and thus more active cooling is required.
Ah, but that's only half true. I've seen a couple of models of external PC PSUs before, complete with seperate pins for the different voltages and such. Did not require a fan on the power supply, though it did get a touch warm at times. With proper design of a) the power supply and b) the system that's supposed to be contained in the smaller box, there's absolutely no reason to need actual fans on the PSU or to allow the thing to overheat. There are much simpler tricks to getting better heat dissipation on those things anyway, like putting them on feet so that air can circulate around them.
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xbox 360 sux. $400. what a waste of money. ITS JUST A GAME. I think that spending just 50 dollars on a game is too much. A good price for a single game is around 30 or at least it was. now its more like 40. you could buy a go-kart or something for 400 bucks. I don't know about you guys, but i'd rather have a go-kart.
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xbox 360 sux. $400. what a waste of money. ITS JUST A GAME. I think that spending just 50 dollars on a game is too much. A good price for a single game is around 30 or at least it was. now its more like 40. you could buy a go-kart or something for 400 bucks. I don't know about you guys, but i'd rather have a go-kart.
And this is why Maeg warned about flamebait.
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I think this falls under the "lacking coherence" category rather than flamebait.
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a go-cart costs a tad more than $400 last I checked. but they're hella fun to drive.
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My brother built a go-kart once, along with a few friends. It actually worked, albiet, moved rather slowly. Still, was fun watching them.
In regards to the 360 itself; its something im looking forward to. but as with any product release these days, it's going to be buggy like hell in the beggining. Granted, the 360 really sucks right now. but by the time the PS3 comes out, it'll have improved to the point where it's worth considering buying it in favour of the latter. But then, of course, one could simply delay some more and just wait for the PS3 to become less buggy as well.
Otherwise, go spend the money on a l337 computer and simply use an emulator to play them :p
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Xbox 360 copy protection cracks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530702.stm
Ding.
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xbox 360 sux. $400. what a waste of money. ITS JUST A GAME. I think that spending just 50 dollars on a game is too much. A good price for a single game is around 30 or at least it was. now its more like 40. you could buy a go-kart or something for 400 bucks. I don't know about you guys, but i'd rather have a go-kart.
I have a car, so I'm not sure why I'd want a go-kart. I think I'd just take the money.
EDIT; according to Dow Jones, apparently 1/10 of 360s bought have been placed on E-bay to sell for higher money. So maybe taking a 360 wouldn't be such a bad idea..... on another note, the 360 launch in Japan actually did worse than the original consoles launch.
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Xbox 360 copy protection cracks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530702.stm
Ding.
Dumps were done pretty much the first day of release. Now can they get it to run?
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Xbox 360 copy protection cracks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530702.stm
Ding.
Dumps were done pretty much the first day of release. Now can they get it to run?
No, I think it means they've decrypted the authentication measures, but not devised any way to override/fool/bypass them.