Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Polpolion on December 11, 2005, 05:54:57 pm
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Okay, heres some things I've noticed about FreeSpace 2:
1. Shivans SUCK. Have you noticed how we were pretty much killing them until they got nine and then eighty juggernauts? If they didn't have the juggernauts, and even if they had two juggernauts, we probly would've beaten them. (I bring this up because I kinda think juggernauts are the same thing as cheating)
2. The myrmadon is able to carry the helios torpedo. There isn't any missions where you can see this in the real campaign, but it can carry helios's (no, my .tbl files weren't hacked). It can only carry 3 or 4, but it still makes an excellent strike bomber. It can't carry cyclopses.
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1)It's not that the shivans suck, it's that you rock ;)
2) Yeah, this one's well known, it carries 4 at the expense of all other secondaries, twin helioses of DOOM!
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1) It's that *SCRAMBLEDCOMMUNICATIONPARADIGMSHIFTHARHAROPINONCAN'TSHARESCRAMBLED*
2) Perseus also carries 4 Helios bombs in multiplayer with tab reloading, but seriously, Myrmidon is an experimental craft as far as FS2 goes, so weirdness in capability to carry Helios is pretty well... let's say justified.
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1) Have you actually seen how long your wingmen survive a typical battle? Shivans are somehow worse than this... because?
2) That's an easter egg. It's a well-documented and widely known easter-egg at that. The very fact that it's like that in the retail tables and yet doesn't appear as a valid combination in any main campaign mission would have made it really hard to "accidentally" put in. But that's not why it's a known easter egg; it's obviously supposed to be like that because the Myrmadon has one bank of REALLY HUGE missile launchers in the model; not big enough to fit a Helios into, perhaps, but bigger than the missile launch ports for any other fighter in the game.
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1. Shivans SUCK. Have you noticed how we were pretty much killing them until they got nine and then eighty juggernauts? If they didn't have the juggernauts, and even if they had two juggernauts, we probly would've beaten them. (I bring this up because I kinda think juggernauts are the same thing as cheating)
I assume by "Shivans SUCK!" you mean "The enemies SUCK!" Try setting your difficulty to Hard. Then try dogfighting with some Dragons, or going head-to-head with a Lilith, and let us know how it goes.
Then try running the Gauntlet missions on multi, and see how the Shivans stack up against the Terran and Vasudan gauntlets.
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He is actually right, at least from a gameplay point of view. Many of the Shivan ships and most of their weapons are somewhat inferior to the Terran or Vasudan counterparts. The Shivans have a few extremely good ships and weapons and then a lot of crap to go with those. As for the gauntlets, the shivan gauntlet is easier than the other two.
However, as far as the story is concerned, the Shivans definitely inflict considerable damage on the GTVA even before the first Sathanas shows up.
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Okay, heres some things I've noticed about FreeSpace 2:
1. Shivans SUCK. Have you noticed how we were pretty much killing them until they got nine and then eighty juggernauts? If they didn't have the juggernauts, and even if they had two juggernauts, we probly would've beaten them. (I bring this up because I kinda think juggernauts are the same thing as cheating)
Play on insane where the hostile AI ships maneuver and do damage at full potenital. On medium, you're only receiving 60% damage whenever you get hit. Hostile ships also will move faster and turn how they would if a player were at the controls (they just run into things on occasion).
2. The myrmadon is able to carry the helios torpedo. There isn't any missions where you can see this in the real campaign, but it can carry helios's (no, my .tbl files weren't hacked). It can only carry 3 or 4, but it still makes an excellent strike bomber. It can't carry cyclopses.
Its useful in multiplayer.
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Okay, heres some things I've noticed about FreeSpace 2:
1. Shivans SUCK. Have you noticed how we were pretty much killing them until they got nine and then eighty juggernauts? If they didn't have the juggernauts, and even if they had two juggernauts, we probly would've beaten them. (I bring this up because I kinda think juggernauts are the same thing as cheating)
Play on insane where the hostile AI ships maneuver and do damage at full potenital. On medium, you're only receiving 60% damage whenever you get hit. Hostile ships also will move faster and turn how they would if a player were at the controls (they just run into things on occasion).
Yes, Im sure it would be difficult, but im talking big picture, not just you vs. the comp. And what if WE were the ones that had 80 juggernats, not the shivans. WE would be the ones who really won. And before any juggernauts, we were winning. Did you notice how they had 32 years to fortify the nebula past Gamma Draconis, yet we still controlled a good part right before the 2nd Sathanas. You see, the Shivans are stupid. They didn't even bother blockading any of the nodes/knossos portals. Any smart person would've done that during a war. Was it because they thought that they would win? probly. But still, they knew they were going to try to kill us again, and they had 32 YEARS to prepare. We thought they were gone forever. most of us did, at least. *sigh* glad I got that out.
2. The myrmadon is able to carry the helios torpedo. There isn't any missions where you can see this in the real campaign, but it can carry helios's (no, my .tbl files weren't hacked). It can only carry 3 or 4, but it still makes an excellent strike bomber. It can't carry cyclopses.
Its useful in multiplayer.
I agree. :)
Sigh... This fourm dose not like me :( (notice the boxes)
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And what if WE were the ones that had 80 juggernats, not the shivans. WE would be the ones who really won. And before any juggernauts, we were winning.
Whoa, really? Thank goodness we got that cleared up.
The Shivans just flat out had far superior numbers to us. We could never have won, even without the help of the Juggernauts. It's impossible to say just how big the entire Shivan fleet is because we never saw it. Also keep in mind that the Juggernaut fleet didn't engage anything. They just made Capella's sun go supernova.
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The Shivans DONT suck. In fact, they were so badly pwning humanity, it wasn't even funny.
The apperance of the SD Ravana alone wiped out a GTVA Corvette, and from the briefings, it also took out another GTVA destroyer and several more ships single-handedly. The fact that they decided to risk deploying an experimental bomber against it suggested a whole lot on how desperate they were to take it out - and even then it only went out to bomber squadrons. In most capital ship engagements, the Ravana won.
When the shivans made it beyond Gamma Draconis, they managed to push allied forces all the way into Capella - at which point you can see that they were delibrately languishing around and waiting for something. The entire key here is that they pretty much could afford to ignore us due to the Sathanas's power. Hence there weren't that many capital ships needed to push into allied space. This was till the Colossus came; at which point they couldn't ignore us anymore, since we had ships with similar capabilities and firepower. And we all know the response to THAT event.
Remember - even in the Bastion mission, allied forces were engaged elsewhere, leaving only 3 Aeolus cruisers in the area. Normally, if the alliance were doing well, they'd at least have a Corvette escort around - if only to protect against larger capital vessels. In hte ending cutscene just before hte supernova we can see how well allied ships fared - a Vasudan destroyer fell to two Shivan vessels in the background of the fight, what appears to be a Lilith and a Moloch. This alone is pretty damn significant of the firepower the Shivans were throwing at the allies in terms of bombers and fighters.
The reason we see them suck so much is because we are seeing them through Alpha 1's eyes. When it comes to the Shivans, or anyone else in the universe, the player is God-like, much akin to the relation between the FEAR point man and the FEAR replicas. We simply have too many advantages that nullate the Shivan's own advantages to actually see how damn kick-ass they are. As mentioned before, try playing in insane or hard and see how easy it is to last against them.
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The Shivans won the first time round because the GTVA didn't have shields for half the campaign and were already on a backfoot before they started on equal terms. Once we were on equal terms we actually started to make a pretty noticeable dent in the Lucifer fleet. In the second one we just got swarmed under by numbers more than anything else.
I don't think it was so much the Sathanas power the Shivans relied on, I don't think the Shivans rely on anything, they just do things, and if some of their number die, no biggy, there's plenty more.
Look at every major space opera... Star Wars, Wing Commander, Babylon 5, Stargate, even Andromeda. The Enemy is always tactically retarded, a crap shot and exists in vast numbers. Theres a reason for this, can you imagine Star Wars with only Sith and no Stormtroopers for the good guys to shoot at and look heroic, if there'd only been Sith vs Jedi, it would have been a great movie (though sort of like X-Men) but most of the rest of the cast would have got gutted within the first 10-15 seconds of combat.
That's why the Shivans suck in combat, so that you can shoot them.
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Hm...Maybe the Shivans do suck. But they get to use the tactic known as "The thirty kindergarten kiddies".
They swamp you with numbers. Try fighting 30 dragons or Mara's. Heck, even Astaroths will seriously make you wish you didn't do this; they'll rip you a new one, after taking down every squadmate. And cap ship.
I had trouble taking down 6 dragons on my own (wingmen were nicely toasted by a capship I think; they should know it is not an icecream, those anti-fighter beams...)
...excuse me while I wipe the image of my wingmen flying at a Moloch with a large icecream cone on top of it, playing the icecream song.
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The only reason the GTVA didn't really suck it up was thanks to good ole Alpha 1. If we had just left things to Command...it'd be game over man, game over! :p
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Look at every major space opera... Star Wars, Wing Commander, Babylon 5, Stargate, even Andromeda. The Enemy is always tactically retarded, a crap shot and exists in vast numbers.
Only that in B5 it's vice versa. The bad guys (shadows) use a handful of battlecrabs to wipe out dozens of younger races's cap ships, which in turn can only put a dent in the battlecrabs if they use vastly superior numbers.
But yes, you're right. It's mainly a plot-device-thing.
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True, but B5 always struck me as the most 'cerebal' of the bunch, since the 'Enemy' was not truly the Shadows, the enemy, in B5, was quite often caused by Shadow (or Vorlon) interference, but the real danger was of people reaction to that interference, not the Shadows themselves.
As Sheridan points out, the moment he saw the Vorlon planet killer, he knew that the Vorlon could have obliterated the Shadows any time they wanted, but the important thing was about the decisions of the younger races, not the actions of the older ones.
At least, in my opinion ;)
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Oh god, command makes your wingmates look good!
Anwyas, mabye someday we'l have some better AI for te enemy fighters, then things can realy heat up...
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There is some truth to the GTVA getting ahead, though, at least in terms of fightercraft. Witness the Eryines.
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The GTVA commmand was pretty dumb, yes i'll give you that. But what if (uh-oh, i used the horrible W-I words :nervous: ) command WAS smart? we would've done much better!
You also must notice that we survuved 2 wars with the shivans, while the anctiants (to what we know) only 1. wait, that just says were good, not they're bad....oh well.
P.S. Don't burst my bubble about the shivans stinking :mad:
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The GTVA commmand was pretty dumb, yes i'll give you that. But what if (uh-oh, i used the horrible W-I words :nervous: ) command WAS smart? we would've done much better!
But we still couldn't have won.
You also must notice that we survuved 2 wars with the shivans, while the anctiants (to what we know) only 1. wait, that just says were good, not they're bad....oh well.
The second war was cut short. If the Shivans had actually wanted to wipe us out, we wouldn't have had a chance. But they just wanted to make Capella go supernova for some reason.
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And the first ware we only won by an ironic (very ironic) twist of fate.
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not the first time... sort of...
and i guess the second time was more of a draw on the way to loseing.
ok let me put it THIS way: we held them off twice. (and we wouldve held em off even w/ out cappella supernova) :)
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(and we wouldve held em off even w/ out cappella supernova) :)
Umm... No? We didn't hold them off. We locked them out. Temporarily.
And They made Capella supernova. Not us. That was the main reason they enterred the system! If that wasn't their focus, and they wanted to go to, say, Delta Serpentis, and supernova that star, we'd not have been able to stop them. Don't be so naive.
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Yeah, both times it was just that we got lucky, theres nothing to say the sheivans even sent a scout beyond cappela cononicaly..
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Um, ok, if the Shivans really wanted to whipe us out, they had the ability to destroy stars - they could've not only obliterated our race, but every system in which we had ever lived.
And I'm not quite sure by what you mean by your last post :p :wtf:
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Recommended read: shivan manifesto (warning: loooong): http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html
IMO it's the best explanation of the shivans' origins and motives.
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Hmmm, the Shivans didn't run away as the big post says, they got exactly what they wanted. And another interesting thought is the reason the Knossos is never found is that when inactive it cloaks? The Shivan com-node spins in a manner like the Knossos. And that the Shivans didn't want to destroy us compleatly, would explain your question on how the GTVA kept toe to toe with them at the start..
Both wars was a trap to get us to do something greater.
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(and we wouldve held em off even w/ out cappella supernova) :)
Umm... No? We didn't hold them off. We locked them out. Temporarily.
And They made Capella supernova. Not us. That was the main reason they enterred the system! If that wasn't their focus, and they wanted to go to, say, Delta Serpentis, and supernova that star, we'd not have been able to stop them. Don't be so naive.
OK my mistake. I didnt mean that WE made the supernova. bad use of words sorry.
anyway im not THAT stupid! I beat the game 3 times! (thats probly not that much compared to you guys)Recommended read: shivan manifesto (warning: loooong): http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html
IMO it's the best explanation of the shivans' origins and motives.
thanx :)
Oh and while im posting- why didn't command just chuck a whole bunch meson bombs at the Saths?
i mean, you construct a giant gun, and BOOM.
besides costing billions of dollars, not haveing the recources, and this idea being stupid, it woulda worked!
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Uhm...TheSizzler...I doubt that it would've worked. I mean...look at the endgame movie.
They left Sathanases there when it went Supernova. I highly doubt that they would miss them.
So...one gun that fires Meson Bombs versus a fleet of Sathanases. I would put my money on the Sathanas fleet. They can cut the -ing bombs down with a tightly knit net of beam cannon fire...right?
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Hmmm, the Shivans didn't run away as the big post says, they got exactly what they wanted. And another interesting thought is the reason the Knossos is never found is that when inactive it cloaks? The Shivan com-node spins in a manner like the Knossos. And that the Shivans didn't want to destroy us compleatly, would explain your question on how the GTVA kept toe to toe with them at the start..
Both wars was a trap to get us to do something greater.
No, according to the manifesto, the Trinity activated the Knossos, which hurt subspace bad. The Shivans immediately came to investigate. They were not interested in the inactive Knossos as it did nothing to subspace. Now there's one problem with that theory: the second knossos in the system beyond the nebula. It's spinning -> it's active -> it's hurting subspace -> shivans should be destroying it. A possible explanation could be that the Knossos inflicts damage only when activated, no damage (or only minimal) while operational. Both portals were activated by the Ancients, but they deactivated the first one to stop the Shivans (the Knossos is probably capable of shutting down the node, but if destroyed while active, the node will remain active for centuries. Very bad simple example: turn off a helicopter's engines and the rotors will keep rotating for some time. Switch the engine in reverse for a short time and they'll stop much faster.)
Now about the Capella part:
For a moment, let us look at the situation from the strategic point of view. The Shivans have amassed a juggernaut armada in-system, and are poised to launch a full-scale strike upon Allied space, a spearhead which the fatigued GTVA is not likely to survive. Yet, instead of invading Allied territory, the Shivans choose instead to destroy the star, killing the mere handful of refugees in the system at the time, and losing several juggernauts in the process, perhaps a substantial portion of their fleet (though an accurate figure is impossible to determine, since we are provided with only one camera angle in the cutscene to observe). In addition, those juggernauts that are not destroyed enter subspace, but to the best of our knowledge, there are no inter-system nodes other than those leading to Vega and Epsilon Pegasi. The juggernauts could not make an in-system jump without being caught by the supernova blast, so just what was their destination?
To understand the solution, we must observe the problem from the Shivan standpoint. Throughout their incursion, the Shivans gained very little ground against the GTVA. The furthest-encroaching Shivan vessel was the original Sathanas, and it was destroyed in Capella--merely one jump from Gamma Draconis--by the GTVA Colossus. It is likely that the Shivans, in all their destructive fury, had never previously lost a vessel of that magnitude to an enemy. Since they were never able to advance any further than Capella (with the exception of a Shivan force that attacked the Vega-Capella node in the endgame), the Shivans could not know for certain just how many Colossus-class vessels the GTVA had in their ranks. For all they knew, a fleet of the mammoth vessels could have been waiting deep within GTVA territory, waiting to spring a trap on the advancing Shivan fleet. Faced with such uncertain opposition, the Shivans took the only course of action open to them:
They ran away. The Shivans were not attacking the GTVA, but retreating from it.
I know it's hard to believe that our beloved superpowerful Shivans ran away. That's because we know how much more powerful 80 Saths are than our entire fleet. But they don't. The entire part "h. You're full of it, buddy. The Shivans would never back down from a fight." is about this.
I've just noticed that the end seems to be missing. This must be because of the new server. Shame.
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I assume by "Shivans SUCK!" you mean "The enemies SUCK!" Try setting your difficulty to Hard. Then try dogfighting with some Dragons, or going head-to-head with a Lilith, and let us know how it goes.
Do not ever say that again. I had problems in a bloody ulysses to take em down.
for ****s and giggles, i tried to get the dragons in a Loki. I ended up preffering Loki over the Perseus and Ulysses :p
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Uhm...TheSizzler...I doubt that it would've worked. I mean...look at the endgame movie.
They left Sathanases there when it went Supernova. I highly doubt that they would miss them.
So...one gun that fires Meson Bombs versus a fleet of Sathanases. I would put my money on the Sathanas fleet. They can cut the -ing bombs down with a tightly knit net of beam cannon fire...right?
yeah... i know... just had to get that out though!
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Whilst the conversation is fine, please bear in mind that the Shivan Manifesto, whilst well written, is mostly one persons view of events. Do not take it as canon, the community was left with precious little information regarding the Shivans motives, and I believe that was intentional.
Personally, I very much doubt the Shivans ran. They're the destroyers, as the Ancients and Vasudans call them. To have fear would suggest some knowledge of 'self' as more important than the whole, Shivans never showed that kind of action, even when vastly outnumbered, Shivans would fight on to destruction. I don't think the thought of failure or death ever enters a Shivans mind, indeed, after the Lucifer was destroyed, very little at all entered the Shivans minds... that may be a hint from volition, it may not.
Volition warned us against applying human or even insectoid values to the Shivans, and for me, this falls into exactly that trap.
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Well... in Derelict the Shivans pretty much rip us a new one with only 3 destroyers and some supporting ships. When it comes down to table values, the Shivans might not be that greatm but good FREDing and story are what make them seem invincible. :nod:
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:hammer: <------ me
:mad2: <------ shivans
HA!!! :)
I bet the shivans don't have cool SMILIES like THESE!!!
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I suggest you stop trying to be annoying, sizzler. Now.
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Whilst the conversation is fine, please bear in mind that the Shivan Manifesto, whilst well written, is mostly one persons view of events. Do not take it as canon, the community was left with precious little information regarding the Shivans motives, and I believe that was intentional.
Personally, I very much doubt the Shivans ran. They're the destroyers, as the Ancients and Vasudans call them. To have fear would suggest some knowledge of 'self' as more important than the whole, Shivans never showed that kind of action, even when vastly outnumbered, Shivans would fight on to destruction. I don't think the thought of failure or death ever enters a Shivans mind, indeed, after the Lucifer was destroyed, very little at all entered the Shivans minds... that may be a hint from volition, it may not.
Volition warned us against applying human or even insectoid values to the Shivans, and for me, this falls into exactly that trap.
I happen to think the Shivan Manifesto is a load of old tosh, to be honest.
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Whilst the conversation is fine, please bear in mind that the Shivan Manifesto, whilst well written, is mostly one persons view of events. Do not take it as canon, the community was left with precious little information regarding the Shivans motives, and I believe that was intentional.
Personally, I very much doubt the Shivans ran. They're the destroyers, as the Ancients and Vasudans call them. To have fear would suggest some knowledge of 'self' as more important than the whole, Shivans never showed that kind of action, even when vastly outnumbered, Shivans would fight on to destruction. I don't think the thought of failure or death ever enters a Shivans mind, indeed, after the Lucifer was destroyed, very little at all entered the Shivans minds... that may be a hint from volition, it may not.
Volition warned us against applying human or even insectoid values to the Shivans, and for me, this falls into exactly that trap.
I happen to think the Shivan Manifesto is a load of old tosh, to be honest.
If we all agreed on everything, the world wouldn't be the fun place it is :)
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Hehe, going by that rule, you would believe ho much fun this place can be sometimes ;)
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I wonder if we'll ever find out what V had in mind. Maybe Dave B will appear one day out of the blue and spill the beans.
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Of the course the Shivans didn't just run away. I personally think that the Shivans did their job, and, once it was completed, left.
Take a look at when and why the Shivans have or would have come. Freespace 1 took place at the beginning of the fourteenth year of the T-V War. Heavy casualties have been inflicted on both sides of the conflict, and then, without warning, the Shivans arrive and begin to devastate Terran and Vasudan forces on all fronts. As the Terrans and Vasudans bind together to fight the Shivans, another force arrives--the Hammer of Light. At first, the Hammer of Light composes possibly a significant portion of the PVN fleet and continues to disturb the fragile GTA-PVN ceasefire during the Great War.
The Shivans level Vasuda Prime and finally move on towards Earth and Sol. At the same time, Ancient records in Altair are discovered, and at about the time of the recovery, the HLD Anvil, a Hammer of Light flagship, is destroyed by the recovery group. Shortly thereafter, the Terrans and Vasudans destroy the Lucifer in subspace, sealing the jump node to Sol and ending the Shivan invasion.
Why did the Shivan come during the T-V War? I think simply to end the conflict between the Terrans and Vasudans. We know that the Shivans have opposition to races using subspace to expand and/or wage war--this is evident with the Ancients' empire. Noticing that a war had broken out between two subspace-faring races, the Shivans were awaken and arrived to end the conflict by whatever means necessary--by unifying the races, or by completing wiping them out.
Thanks to the Hammer of Light and their continued crusade against the GTA and PVN, the Shivans did not halt their attacks--they instead destroyed Vasuda Prime and moved on to destroy Earth. After the destruction of the Lucifer, the Shivans possibly remained for a while longer. As the Hammer of Light (and the new Hades Rebellion) was whittled down and made more and more powerless, I would assume that the Shivans would have eventually begun disappearing here.
In FS2, after about thirty years of peace between the Terrans and Vasudans, the Neo-Terran Front forms and rebels against the established GTVA. A couple of years into the rebellion, Admiral Bosch sends the NTC Trinity to activate the Knossos portal in Gamma Draconis. The Shivans arrive again, and penetrate all the way to Capella. At the same time, Admiral Bosch initiates his first contact with the Shivans. Shortly after, the Shivans cause the Capella star to go supernova, ending the Second Great War.
Why did the Shivans come the second time? Two reasons, possibly--the NTF Rebellion. Just like the T-V War thirty-two years ago, the Rebellion pitted two powers against each other in a costly war. The death and the use of subspace again to transport warships through to battlegrounds would likely have been enough to bring the Shivans back.
Secondly, the possible activation of the Knossos could have triggered some subspace disturbance--a loss in the equilibrium of subspace nodes in the sector of the galaxy. The Shivans return, and, since the Knossos portal had stabilized by the time the Shivans were pouring into Gamma Draconis and Capella, there was nothing the GTVA could have done to collapse the extremely powerful vortex connecting possibly one section of the galaxy to another.
When Admiral Bosch makes contact with the Shivans, the actual Shivan offensive appears to turn towards mostly toward the Sathanas juggernauts. As the 80+ Sathanes close in on Capella, the GTVA begins to evacuate and prepares to shut down the two nodes GTVA-controlled nodes at Vega and Epsilon Pegasi. The Shivans cause the Capella supernova through an unusual subspace disturbance just as the Nereid collapses the jump node to Vega.
The loss of equilibrium in the subspace nodes in the Gamma Draconis sector through the activation of the Knossos could have caused the Shivans to want to destabilize other nodes to restore the balance. As we said, we can't apply human characteristics to the Shivans, so it is possible that the Shivans were more than capable of realizing that the GTVA would have discovered some way to stop the Shivans if they were faced with an unstoppable juggernaut force--collapsing the nodes.
My theory here is that when the Shivans destroyed Capella and created the unusual subspace disturbance, it may have either permanently sealed what the GTVA had done to the Vega and Epsilon Pegasi nodes, yet generated just a stable enough vortex for part of the juggernaut armada to jump out once the star had been destabilized enough. Thus, the balance is restored: the loss of two or three nodes in Capella may have balanced the subspace force as the Shivans would have come for. Without an NTF Rebellion or major conflict to deal with, the Shivans were focused more on the subspace nodes, and not ending a conflict, as they could have intended early on.
So, summary: The Shivans are the Great Preservers and an intergalactic police force. They monitor subspace equilibrium and control intergalactic disputes through their own methods. The Shivans are not a stationary species bent on expansion and conquest, but only appear when a problem must be dealt with.
Argue, please.
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Collapsing nodes to restore balance is an interesting idea, and I can accept that. But I still don't see Capella justified. The Nereid would've collapsed the node anyway, no need to waste several juggernaughts.
Why did the Shivan come during the T-V War? I think simply to end the conflict between the Terrans and Vasudans.
A species left alive could become a problem again in the future... the easiest way to get rid of the problem is to exterminate them. They return in FS2. This means they did a bad job in FS1.
And besides... with all their encounters with other races they could've developed a universal translator already. And instead of killing everything on first sight they could atleast try to convince the spacefaring races to stop using subspace. Of course noone would listen to them and they'd end up killing anybody anyway. Which I think is what happened when the Shivans first encountered other civilizations. Then they just got tired of asking.
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The return of the Shivans in FS2 doesn't mean that they didn't do their job in FS1--they did a fine job the first time around, as they unified the Terrans and Vasudans. I believe that Bosch deliberately started the NTF Rebellion in attempt to bring the Shivans back, only this time to be a little more diplomatic with them. Perhaps he thought that he could convince of humanity's harmlessness, that the Terrans had learned from the Great War to not engage in conflict where avoidable. Since humanity would not have to engage in interstellar war, the Shivans would have no reason to return and threaten the GTVA once again.
I agree and disagree with the second part of your post. I agree that the Shivans would not have had diplomatic relations with a race that they had to deal with, simply because of an understanding of the nature of its target empires or warring civilizations. I don't believe that the Shivans ever would have made contact with said civilizations, because obviously if the sides had believed in diplomacy in the first place, such a war would possibly not have happened.
While I can't particularly answer the juggernaut question, I would assume that there's much more about the Shivans than anyone can understand--maybe a few juggernauts don't mean anything to them, or maybe saving the majority of the 80+ juggernaut fleet was acceptable, given the temporary possible subspace vortex created by the collapsing star.
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The return of the Shivans in FS2 doesn't mean that they didn't do their job in FS1--they did a fine job the first time around, as they unified the Terrans and Vasudans. I believe that Bosch deliberately started the NTF Rebellion in attempt to bring the Shivans back, only this time to be a little more diplomatic with them. Perhaps he thought that he could convince of humanity's harmlessness, that the Terrans had learned from the Great War to not engage in conflict where avoidable. Since humanity would not have to engage in interstellar war, the Shivans would have no reason to return and threaten the GTVA once again.
1st problem: They did unify the Terrans and Vasudans. But did that help make Terrans a peace-loving race? No. Bosch's rebellion was built on the envy and hate of the Vasudans, because of their miraculous recovery while humanity was starving. Any power-hungry madman could've easily started a war, but Bosch was different. He was not power-hungry, he sought the salvation of his race. And he will be remembered as a power-hungry madman.
Also, Khonsu II was a wise emperor: he knew that the Terrans and Vasudans could only survive together. Fortunate thing he was the emperor not someone else
2nd problem: The ancients built subspace portals to explore. This exploration was not quite peaceful, according to the monologues, but it could have been. But it doesn't matter, because the Knossos hurts the Shivans no matter if it's used to transfer science vessels or battleships. Now, the GTVA would've discovered that technology on its own. The Shivans should know already that the only way to deal with a problematic race is to get rid of it. After all, they (probably) destroyed countless other civilizations before.
I agree and disagree with the second part of your post. I agree that the Shivans would not have had diplomatic relations with a race that they had to deal with, simply because of an understanding of the nature of its target empires or warring civilizations. I don't believe that the Shivans ever would have made contact with said civilizations, because obviously if the sides had believed in diplomacy in the first place, such a war would possibly not have happened.
Yes, but they could've amassed 80 juggernaughts to the Capella-Gamma Drac jump node. And then they could've sent the message: 'Stop fighting or be destroyed. The choice is yours.'
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They return in FS2. This means they did a bad job in FS1.
That's patently false and you ought to know it. They don't return, Bosch had to go send the Trinity to poke them with a beam cannon and make them mad.
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Alright, so Bosch had to activate the portal to get their attention. But the point is that they didn't give the Trinity a warm hug, but blew it up with a few bombs.
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But the point is that they didn't give the Trinity a warm hug, but blew it up with a few bombs.
Probably because the Trinity shot first. She was already damaged, and survived, meaning that she can't have been ambushed as she would have been destroyed without question. The only possible explination was that the Trinity, as ngtm1r surmised, poked the shivans with its Beam Cannon, and the Shivans poked back with 80+ Juggernauts.
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But the point is that they didn't give the Trinity a warm hug, but blew it up with a few bombs.
Probably because the Trinity shot first. She was already damaged, and survived, meaning that she can't have been ambushed as she would have been destroyed without question. The only possible explination was that the Trinity, as ngtm1r surmised, poked the shivans with its Beam Cannon, and the Shivans poked back with 80+ Juggernauts.
Bosch wanted an alliance with the shivans. So he sends in a single Leviathan (or was that a Fenris) to poke them with a beam cannon?
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Bosch wanted an alliance with the shivans. So he sends in a single Leviathan (or was that a Fenris) to poke them with a beam cannon?
Of course! Think about it, the only ETAK Device was on the Iceni, which was all the way up in Polaris. How in the fuzzy hell was Bosch supposed to get this ship all the way to the Nebula and the Shivans within, when he had multiple GTVA-held systems in the way? Easy, set the Shivans on their Vasudan-loving arses! With the GTVA embroiled in a fight with the Shivans, Bosch was able to slip past the blockades and get into the Nebula, and once there, he could use ETAK to get on the horn with the nearest Shivan Capital-ship and ask them over for tea!
Remember, it can be safely assumed that Bosch didn't know about Project Colossus, and therefore think about the course of events had the Big C not been there to sure-up GTVA blockades. Without the Big C, Bosch would have been able to slip past the battling Shivan & GTVA forces into the Nebula with most of his fleet intact, thus giving him a large enough to save his traitorous hide should the Shivans not take kindly to his communication attempts.
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Bosch wanted an alliance with the shivans. So he sends in a single Leviathan (or was that a Fenris) to poke them with a beam cannon?
Of course! Think about it, the only ETAK Device was on the Iceni, which was all the way up in Polaris. How in the fuzzy hell was Bosch supposed to get this ship all the way to the Nebula and the Shivans within, when he had multiple GTVA-held systems in the way?
*snip*
The same way he got it there in the game. "Command gave us false coordinates" and "Someone sabotaged the Colossus's beams"
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The same way he got it there in the game. "Command gave us false coordinates" and "Someone sabotaged the Colossus's beams"
Riiiight, forgot about that... perhaps he had sympathisers and/or had bribed people in the right position to get him to his destination, or that whole thing with the SOC wanting to keep ETAK intact. But my arguement remains the same; I believe that he orchestrated a hostile introduction to the Shivans via the Trinity to give him a better chance through the Knossoss.
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The same way he got it there in the game. "Command gave us false coordinates" and "Someone sabotaged the Colossus's beams"
Riiiight, forgot about that... perhaps he had sympathisers and/or had bribed people in the right position to get him to his destination, or that whole thing with the SOC wanting to keep ETAK intact. But my arguement remains the same; I believe that he orchestrated a hostile introduction to the Shivans via the Trinity to give him a better chance through the Knossoss.
It doesn't matter wether the Shivans united the T-Vs or not, they did a bad job because there was a Terran called Bosch who opened an Ancient portal massively damaging subspace. I doubt the Shivans will want to come back every time humanity does something bad and prevent them from further damaging subspace. It's far easier to exterminate them with their superior fleet once and for all. And lets not forget the universe is big, and the T&V are not the only species in it.
Besides, their losses would've been much smaller, since nothing in the GTVA except Alpha 1 and the Colossus can destroy a Sathanas.
The next time the shivans come will be because the GTVA opens the portal to Sol. Suppose they fail to destroy the T&Vs again. Then, after a few decades, terrans will want to expand beyond known space, but the jump nodes leading to new systems are unstable. No problem - we have Knossos technology. So here come the Shivans - again. Suppose the GTVA survives - again. So they decide not to build any more gates and expand any more. There will still be wars, and wars mean extensive usage of subspace and... Shivans. Either the GTVA finally discoveres why the Shivans keep coming back, or they get fried.
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The same way he got it there in the game. "Command gave us false coordinates" and "Someone sabotaged the Colossus's beams"
Riiiight, forgot about that... perhaps he had sympathisers and/or had bribed people in the right position to get him to his destination, or that whole thing with the SOC wanting to keep ETAK intact. But my arguement remains the same; I believe that he orchestrated a hostile introduction to the Shivans via the Trinity to give him a better chance through the Knossoss.
It doesn't matter wether the Shivans united the T-Vs or not, they did a bad job because there was a Terran called Bosch who opened an Ancient portal massively damaging subspace. I doubt the Shivans will want to come back every time humanity does something bad and prevent them from further damaging subspace. It's far easier to exterminate them with their superior fleet once and for all. And lets not forget the universe is big, and the T&V are not the only species in it.
Besides, their losses would've been much smaller, since nothing in the GTVA except Alpha 1 and the Colossus can destroy a Sathanas.
The next time the shivans come will be because the GTVA opens the portal to Sol. Suppose they fail to destroy the T&Vs again. Then, after a few decades, terrans will want to expand beyond known space, but the jump nodes leading to new systems are unstable. No problem - we have Knossos technology. So here come the Shivans - again. Suppose the GTVA survives - again. So they decide not to build any more gates and expand any more. There will still be wars, and wars mean extensive usage of subspace and... Shivans. Either the GTVA finally discoveres why the Shivans keep coming back, or they get fried.
1/ No evidence the portal damages subspace. In fact, it's equally as like it repairs it. Also, there were Knossos portals in Shivan space that were left intact; the Shivans did not apparently make any effort to close these or destroy them.
2/No evidence the GTVA or Ancients were damaging subspace either through travel or action (the Ancients were apparently aware that combat in subspace could collapse a node and presumably thus avoided it, and the GTVA didn't destroy any nodes canonically until the Shivans attacked)
3/The Shivans opted not to destroy humanity, but to destroy the Capellan star. It would have been very easy for them to overrun GTVA positions at the nodes with that Sathanas fleet rather than let the GTVA destroy them; with Bosch in custody it's feasible the Shivans would have known of the GTVA contingency plans to seal off Shivan infested systems. They could also have surmised this from the GTVA destruction of the Knossos.
4/ Bosch, in his final monologue, made allusions to forming an alliance and ending some 'misunderstanding' with the Shivans. Whilst it's plausible the Shivans were 'playing' Bosch to their own ends, it's still far from clear cut what the Shivans want from humanity (or the Vasudans) if anything.
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1) and 2) yes, there is no evidence, but there is no evidence against it. I was just too lazy to write "assuming this and that damages subspace" at the beginning of each post.
1) second part: I already explained that: portals only damage subspace when activated. The others were already active, but the first one was closed down to stop the shivans by the ancients.
3):
- 1) Bosch didn't know of the GTVA's contingency plan.
- 2)The destruction of the Knossos is one thing, it's almost a natural response (that there big thingy is lettin Shivans, let's blow it up). Collapsing jump nodes is another thing. Humans didn't know that blowing up a lot of bombs in an open node will collapse it until the Lucifer's destruction. Remember - in the first case it's the destruction of the device, in the second, the destruction of the node itself.
- 3) I really doubt the ETAK is actually a translator. Its just something that can give out shivan "sounds" (quantum pulses), but not speak the language, as we do not know the shivan language, only the way they communicate (we found out this through observation). The Ancients probably didn't know the language too
- 4) Even if the shivans had a neural interface to connect to Bosch, they couldn't understand him. They don't know the Terran language and their physiology is different (I'm assuming they're subspace energy beings), so they wouldn't get a video like in some Hollywood movies (Sixth day etc.), because they don't know how to interpret the information. They could find a way to communicate, but that would require a lot of research, and the time frame is just too short.
- 5) and even if they did know of the plan, why did they not stop the GTVA from doing it? Why did they not simply destroy the Bastion with a few Saths?
4) he thought the Shivans were attacking because there was some misunderstanding (he doesn't know what that misunderstanding is, he wants to find out). He hoped to find a way to communicate, end this misunderstanding, and form an alliance. To the Shivans Bosch was nothing more than a simple Terran who had to be destroyed until he first used the ETAK. Then he became interesting, so they took him away. What they did with him is still a mystery. But I doubt they invited him to a party.
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1 and 2) The fact that the Shivans came when they did - particularly for the Ancients - indicates a far from immediate response if it was just to subspace travel. The Ancients had established a vast empire before they were destroyed. There's more evidence in that than for 'harmful' travel, especially as no note is made of fundamental differences in captured Shivan engines. Also, the activation of the Knossos network is conjecture in itself; essentially it's a house of cards dependent on a number of assumptions. Such as, why the Shivans left the Knossos' intact in the knowledge they could damage subspace when deactivated/reactiviated. The assumption that the gates were previously open rather than networked (which arguably contradicts the Shivan buildup of forces into those Knossos connection regions, given that if the GTVA was hurting subspace, they would surely have substantial forces there anyways). That the Ancients closed down the Knossos for that reason, and more particularly closed only that Knossos.
3)1)Why wouldn't Bosch know of that plan? He was an Admiral, a fleet commander - one of the highest ranked individuals in the GTVA prior to his rebellion. Also, the GTVA have clearly been planning for the Shivan 'contingency' for many years - just look at how the Colossus is designed as a Lucifer killer. Also, he was in the GTI for some unspecified period; again likely to have access to intelligence of that nature.
3)2) It'd take an idiot not to realise that the Knossos was being destroyed to seal the node. From that alone, it is obvious the GTVA would aim to seal off systems that the Shivans occupied.
3)3) "We now know that Admiral Bosch has developed a Shivan communication technology that transmits and modulates quantum pulses. Bosch secretly resurrected a defunct GTI project involving captured Shivan specimen, terminated after the GTI's Hades rebellion in 2335. Bosch referred to his project as ETAK, short for Etamnanki, the tower that may have inspired the story of Babel."
3)4) Firstly, the assumption the Shivans are subspace energy beings is a massive one. There is absolutely no evidence of that, and their physical (mechanical-biological) bodies have been studied by the GTVA. Also, if ETAK is a translator, then it obviously would be used for that. Also, we're dealing with a race that can destroy a star here, that level of technology can be advanced enough as to appear magic.
3)5) They quite possibly did. The Bastion came under heavy fire from Shivans, just check the messages. Also, the Shivans launched a massive attack on the Vega node (the Nereid launched from the Vega side of C-V). Again, of course you are assuming the Shivans had an interesting in stopping it - that their priority was this 'defense of subspace'. But if so, it would beg the question as to why they didn't send Sathani.
4)"This is the final entry in the personal log of Admiral Aken Bosch, supreme commander of the Neo Terran Front. Our encounter with the Shivans has vindicated all I have fought for these past thirty years. My life's work has been achieved. I have created the technology to enable communication between the Shivans and the human race. Although our first contact was rudimentary and crude, I have initiated the first phase of a new alliance with the destroyers. An alliance upon which the fate of humanity depends.
As a young pilot I battled against the rebels of the great war, the Galactic Terran Intelligence whose research of shivan technology and biology would form the cornerstone of my project. The Terran-Vasudan alliance buried this knowledge but I resurrected it. I alone realised our species had no future with the Vasudans. If we are to survive, our destiny must lie elsewhere.
As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the shivan transports. We embark on a miraculous journey towards a new horizon. This tragic era of hatred and misunderstanding between our races is over. On this day, for the first time in my life, I am filled with joy. "
That to me is pretty indicative that he believed he had made communication of a meaningful sort; Bosch wasn't an idiot, he wouldn't have abandoned his ship and handed himself to the Shivans without some sort of belief in that.
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1,2: Opening one subspace node doesn't incur the wrath of the Shivans. It's more likely that extended overuse of subspace does. E. g. the 14 year war, or the ancients expansion (as we are led to believe in FS1). However IIRC it's mentioned somewhere in FS2 (in-game dialog) that the portal leads to the area of space where the ancients first encountered the shivans. Of course it does. The ancients activated at least 3 portals. The shivans immediately responded. Maybe their expansion was not enough to summon the Shivans.
Then the Ancients quickly retreated. They didn't bother to close down every Knossos, only the first one, as they didn't have time/thought that was sufficient. But what they didn't know was that Shivans could enter normal space elsewhere (like Ross 128)
3/1: Perhaps because the plan was devised after his rebellion? When the Shivan Saths started pouring into Capella.
3/2: So if their goal was to prevent the GTVA from sealing off Capella, why did they decide to blow up the star, which IMO destroys the nodes as well? And makes travel to that system problematic because the new nebula is a little too hot even for Shivan armor
3/4: It is, but even if they are not, their physiology is likely different enough to make communication problematic. They communicate in quantum pulses, after all.
3/5: Heavy fire? I don't call that heavy fire when there's 80+ Saths in the system. And I'm not saying that the Shivans' priority at that time was defense of subspace. It was second. Their priority was getting home. As for the Vega-Capella node attack, that was just the standard Shivan "control of subspace nodes" behaviour
As for the rest, I'm quoting the manifesto again:
c. If the Shivans are truly xenocidal, why did they respond to Admiral Bosch? What happened to him?
*snip*
The most plausible explanation is that the Shivans were more intrigued by the nature of Bosch's transmissions, rather than their actual content. Bosch himself states that the first contact was "rudimentary and crude", meaning that the content of his message may very well have been different than what he'd initially believed--something nonsensical like "cheese is ambitious except on Sunday in winter" as opposed to "we come in peace". The Shivans, in turn, would have been puzzled by what they encountered: a Shivan transmission emanating from a Terran vessel. When they investigated, perhaps expecting to find captured Shivans, but instead discovered an overly-idealistic Aken Bosch, it is reasonable to assume that they were none-too-pleased.
To conclude the point, Admiral Bosch is likely dead. After being presented with a vessel full of unprepared Terrans, the Shivans probably acted on the chance to conduct biological dissection and other experiments upon their new specimen.
d. Is it possible that the Shivans captured Bosch in order to interrogate him?
Unlikely. The Shivans have never previously been interested in talking to either Terrans or Vasudans, and have never taken prisoners (with the exception of Bosch and his command crew). We are granted very few glimpses of Shivan/Terran personal interaction: once in the "Hall Fight" cutscene, and again with the apperance of the Lucifer at Tombaugh Station (described in the Freespace Reference Bible). We may or may not wish to include the boarding of the Iceni as a third example. In each case, contact has been extremely violent, with no intent to discuss any sort of terms, or indeed, to ask questions of any kind.
Secondly is the problem of the language barrier itself. Humans aren't Shivan, as Commander Snipes so succintly points out to us, and we don't speak "quantum pulse" very well. So far as we know, the only ETAK prototype was aboard the Iceni; whether this device was destroyed along with the command frigate or not is unknown, but it can be assumed lost. ETAK was a prototype device, and as the first of its kind, probably wouldn't have been very portable. The first Earth computers were enormous, taking up entire rooms, and Bosch's ETAK may very well have existed on a similar scale.
Despite Bosch's rigorous study of the Shivans, he's no MacGyver, and it seems unlikely that he would be able to rebuild such a device completely from memory. Even if we accept that Bosch had the ETAK blueprints stored on his nifty little laptop, and that he took it with him when he was captured (something that is virtually guaranteed to be untrue; if the Alliance hadn't recovered Bosch's computer, then we probably wouldn't be reading his personal log), then he is still aboard a Shivan vessel, with no Terran tools or materials with which to assemble his device.
BTW I've discovered that a very big part of the manifesto is missing on the new server. However, I managed to find it in Google's cache. http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:QtdDGcsf77wJ:dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/showthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D22279%26highlight%3Dmanifesto+area+of+space+where+the+ancients+first+encountered+the+shivans&hl=en
The ending part about the Shivan retreat, the idea that shivans damage subspace themselves, the conclusion -- it's all missing on this new server.
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Just throwing this out there, but from that misunderstanding point...maybe the Shivans destroyed the Ancients because of their Knossos portals, and when we activated a portal, they thought maybe we were trying to reestablish the Ancients empire/we were somehow related to/descended from the Ancients?
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Just throwing this out there, but from that misunderstanding point...maybe the Shivans destroyed the Ancients because of their Knossos portals, and when we activated a portal, they thought maybe we were trying to reestablish the Ancients empire/we were somehow related to/descended from the Ancients?
Then why did they come in FS1?
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Perhaps to scout us out and see what we were capable of. The box states that they were wondering what happened to their "scouting fleet" - althought boxes are hardly reliable. But still, they could've just been seeing what we were capable of; notice after they lost the Lucifer, they simply vanished, and didn't bother us until we opened another portal?
Another theory is that, in one of the cutscenes, the Shivans are also reserved to as the "Great Preservers" - perhaps they were keeping us in check, they thought that maybe we were going to become as large as the Ancients, so they came in, beat us up some to slow us down, then just left.
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Perhaps to scout us out and see what we were capable of. The box states that they were wondering what happened to their "scouting fleet" - althought boxes are hardly reliable. But still, they could've just been seeing what we were capable of; notice after they lost the Lucifer, they simply vanished, and didn't bother us until we opened another portal?
Another theory is that, in one of the cutscenes, the Shivans are also reserved to as the "Great Preservers" - perhaps they were keeping us in check, they thought that maybe we were going to become as large as the Ancients, so they came in, beat us up some to slow us down, then just left.
Forget the box. That's marketing bulls***
They didn't vanish, they became disorganized and we defeated them.
the second theory is fine, but the problem with the "then just left part" is that their original intention was to destroy earth. They left because they were defeated.
Also, I've argued against the "weaken humanity then leave" theory already: why bother coming back every 30 years? Exterminate 'em all, and then you only have to come back (to this region of space) in 8000 years to deal with the next race
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1,2: Opening one subspace node doesn't incur the wrath of the Shivans. It's more likely that extended overuse of subspace does. E. g. the 14 year war, or the ancients expansion (as we are led to believe in FS1). However IIRC it's mentioned somewhere in FS2 (in-game dialog) that the portal leads to the area of space where the ancients first encountered the shivans. Of course it does. The ancients activated at least 3 portals. The shivans immediately responded. Maybe their expansion was not enough to summon the Shivans.
Then the Ancients quickly retreated. They didn't bother to close down every Knossos, only the first one, as they didn't have time/thought that was sufficient. But what they didn't know was that Shivans could enter normal space elsewhere (like Ross 128)
3/1: Perhaps because the plan was devised after his rebellion? When the Shivan Saths started pouring into Capella.
3/2: So if their goal was to prevent the GTVA from sealing off Capella, why did they decide to blow up the star, which IMO destroys the nodes as well? And makes travel to that system problematic because the new nebula is a little too hot even for Shivan armor
3/4: It is, but even if they are not, their physiology is likely different enough to make communication problematic. They communicate in quantum pulses, after all.
3/5: Heavy fire? I don't call that heavy fire when there's 80+ Saths in the system. And I'm not saying that the Shivans' priority at that time was defense of subspace. It was second. Their priority was getting home. As for the Vega-Capella node attack, that was just the standard Shivan "control of subspace nodes" behaviour
1)2) Again wholly assumptative. Why would the Shivans not attack again in the many. many years following the Great War then, if it was down to simple long term use? I find it unlikely destroying the Lucifer would give the GTVA a 'clean slate' from the Shivans. Also, why would the Ancients take a strategy that entailed losing 2 systems by activating the 3rd Knossos, when activating the 1st (Lions Den) would lose no systems? It would seem simple logic to shut down the first Knossos possible, even if just to allow a longer fallback. I will concede, though, that the Ancients could have believed they could have recaptured that system in counterattacks.
3)1) I doubt that; the GTVA would have a responsibility to plan for the Shivan attack, and would also have surely studied the whole issue of collapsing a node after the Sol node was destroyed. In any case, it would be obvious once the GTVA destroyed the knossos. Even if the Shivans - unlikely - couldn't figure that out, Bosch sure as hell could.
3)2) That's exactly my point RE: protecting subspace and humanity as a whole. If they wanted to protect subspace from GTVA damage, it was piss easy for them to do so. It becomes obvious that whatever they wanted to do with Capella - whether or not that was achieved - was more important than a piddly little alliance, and that draws into question whether humanity was really doing anything damaging enough to attract the Shivans.
3)4) Problematic does not mean impossible, and the Shivans are a somewhat capable race. It would appear quantum-pulse comms is not beyond humanity, and the Shivans... well, they're an order of magnitude ahead.
3)5) The messages in that mission indicate the pilots considered the prolonged Shivan attack upon the Bastion to be heavy. The player, after all, only comes in quite late to assist. Also, the Sathani may not be intended as that type of front line warship; perhaps they have another primary purpose (to do with the nova) - or are simply too slow.
You're assuming the Shivans were trying to 'get home', and indeed that the supernova was intentional to that effect (which begs a question as to whether a nova is 'good' for subspace)
Of course, there are many reasons for attacking the Vega-Capella node; providing a screen for the Sathani being one. But it's also common sense that the Shivans would anticipate the Vega node being destroyed (it would have been blindingly obvious, especially after EP was collapsed), so perhaps they are not all that concerned with 'saving' it. In either case, there's no basis for the assumption the Shivans did not know of the GTVA plans to destroy the nodes; the question is how much did they care, and it's pretty obvious the answer is 'not much'.
As for the rest, I'm quoting the manifesto again:
c. If the Shivans are truly xenocidal, why did they respond to Admiral Bosch? What happened to him?
*snip*
The most plausible explanation is that the Shivans were more intrigued by the nature of Bosch's transmissions, rather than their actual content. Bosch himself states that the first contact was "rudimentary and crude", meaning that the content of his message may very well have been different than what he'd initially believed--something nonsensical like "cheese is ambitious except on Sunday in winter" as opposed to "we come in peace". The Shivans, in turn, would have been puzzled by what they encountered: a Shivan transmission emanating from a Terran vessel. When they investigated, perhaps expecting to find captured Shivans, but instead discovered an overly-idealistic Aken Bosch, it is reasonable to assume that they were none-too-pleased.
To conclude the point, Admiral Bosch is likely dead. After being presented with a vessel full of unprepared Terrans, the Shivans probably acted on the chance to conduct biological dissection and other experiments upon their new specimen.
d. Is it possible that the Shivans captured Bosch in order to interrogate him?
Unlikely. The Shivans have never previously been interested in talking to either Terrans or Vasudans, and have never taken prisoners (with the exception of Bosch and his command crew). We are granted very few glimpses of Shivan/Terran personal interaction: once in the "Hall Fight" cutscene, and again with the apperance of the Lucifer at Tombaugh Station (described in the Freespace Reference Bible). We may or may not wish to include the boarding of the Iceni as a third example. In each case, contact has been extremely violent, with no intent to discuss any sort of terms, or indeed, to ask questions of any kind.
Secondly is the problem of the language barrier itself. Humans aren't Shivan, as Commander Snipes so succintly points out to us, and we don't speak "quantum pulse" very well. So far as we know, the only ETAK prototype was aboard the Iceni; whether this device was destroyed along with the command frigate or not is unknown, but it can be assumed lost. ETAK was a prototype device, and as the first of its kind, probably wouldn't have been very portable. The first Earth computers were enormous, taking up entire rooms, and Bosch's ETAK may very well have existed on a similar scale.
Despite Bosch's rigorous study of the Shivans, he's no MacGyver, and it seems unlikely that he would be able to rebuild such a device completely from memory. Even if we accept that Bosch had the ETAK blueprints stored on his nifty little laptop, and that he took it with him when he was captured (something that is virtually guaranteed to be untrue; if the Alliance hadn't recovered Bosch's computer, then we probably wouldn't be reading his personal log), then he is still aboard a Shivan vessel, with no Terran tools or materials with which to assemble his device.
BTW I've discovered that a very big part of the manifesto is missing on the new server. However, I managed to find it in Google's cache. http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:QtdDGcsf77wJ:dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/showthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D22279%26highlight%3Dmanifesto+area+of+space+where+the+ancients+first+encountered+the+shivans&hl=en
The ending part about the Shivan retreat, the idea that shivans damage subspace themselves, the conclusion -- it's all missing on this new server.
I consider the manifesto fairly meaningless as a source, and this is a good illustration why. It's ridden with assumptions because IMO it was likely wrote with the conclusion decided, and the question being how to crowbar in everything to fit.
In particular a translation error would be highly unlikely to provide such a correlative response as for the Shivans to know both where the Iceni was, who to grab off of it, and indeed that they could even board it atall. It would require an error that somehow preserved a consistent meaning that appeared differently to both sides; in reality the effect of a mistranslation would be either gibberish, or rapid divergence as misunderstood replies compounded prior errors. The assumption here is massive, and it runs contrary to basic translation logic. Even a simple 4-line experiment with similar languages in Babelfish would show this.
In terms of the Shivans taking prisoners; there's no attempt to explain why the Shivans took command crew for this purported experiment rather than just people in general. For Shivans to specifically target the commanding officers of the NTF implies some knowledge of the NTFs structure; moreso because they slaughtered most of the rest of the crew, meaning it's not a case of grabbing the first person they saw and buggering off.
Also, the Shivans did not destroy the Iceni after boarding it; why? If they didn't communicate with Bosch (who would need his command codes), how could they know self-destruct was commencing? Why did the Shivans use the airlock, when they can canonically survive in space and just tear through the hull in what would be a more sensible surprise attack (in order to rescue similarly vacuum proof comrades)? The only need to use the airlock, was not to kill the (human) people on board. Additionally, why would the Shivans take human prisoners now and never before? If they interpreted the ETAK signals as a distress call - something we have no evidence for believing an individual Shivan can do, especially given the specimens stored by the GTI in Silent Thread - then their view of humans can't have changed.
It's also worth noting that the only known human-Shivan meeting - Hallfight - had the humans fire first.
There's no reason for the assumption we are 'reading' Bosch' log atall for the monologues - which is the only part that could mean - and it makes less sense in the narrative than simply regarding the cutscenes as interludes or cuts to a parallel part of the story. I'm sure atall what that line is meant to mean. Not to mention the fairly blatantly obvious possibility if we are reading Bosch' logs... perhaps they stored copies of their information on a central computer? Like pretty much every organized computer network of the modern day?
Also, the idea that the Shivans wouldn't have taken prisoners is based on a wholly unfounded assumption that communication had not been made. Which runs contrary to common sense and the obvious meaning of the last monologue and the GTVAs own intelligence of the ETAK device. We also do not know what the Shivan could or did take from the Iceni, and the idea they are incapable of making an ETAK style device is an equally unfounded assumption; not only do they have the highers up of the NTF (quite possibly including their chief technicians), all the Shivans would need is to understand the principles to manufacture their own version.
And, of course, we have no idea how large ETAK is, how long the Shivans were docked, or even if ETAK itself is a physical device rather than a software program combined with rudimentary and scaleable existing technology. The assumptions regarding the size of it are completely - again - unfounded; a device based on a unique combination of components has no need to be large with a society as advanced as 24th century earth. It's worth noting the main reasons for the size of large computers was largely restrictions on the physical manufacture of components; by the era of FS2 the GTVA is capable of nanotechnology (according to an FS mailing list post by Adam Pletcher, IIRC). I'd wager myself that the largest part of ETAK would be the physical transmitter.
(also, it's not exactly bloody likely Bosch would leave the Iceni to go with the Shivans without a method of communication, is it?)
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Perhaps to scout us out and see what we were capable of. The box states that they were wondering what happened to their "scouting fleet" - althought boxes are hardly reliable. But still, they could've just been seeing what we were capable of; notice after they lost the Lucifer, they simply vanished, and didn't bother us until we opened another portal?
Another theory is that, in one of the cutscenes, the Shivans are also reserved to as the "Great Preservers" - perhaps they were keeping us in check, they thought that maybe we were going to become as large as the Ancients, so they came in, beat us up some to slow us down, then just left.
Forget the box. That's marketing bulls***
They didn't vanish, they became disorganized and we defeated them.
the second theory is fine, but the problem with the "then just left part" is that their original intention was to destroy earth. They left because they were defeated.
Also, I've argued against the "weaken humanity then leave" theory already: why bother coming back every 30 years? Exterminate 'em all, and then you only have to come back (to this region of space) in 8000 years to deal with the next race
That doesn't make any sense though; a super-race that defeated a MASSIVE interstellar empire with very little loss, suddenly turn tail and run at a rag tag bunch of mashed up lesser races? I think they came to beat us up some to keep us in check, maybe because we were doing something to subspace?
That's an ongoing theme in Freespace, by the way: subspace. Read into Freespace history, it's almost symbolic.
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Why would the Shivans not attack again in the many. many years following the Great War then, if it was down to simple long term use? I find it unlikely destroying the Lucifer would give the GTVA a 'clean slate' from the Shivans.
Again, an assumption is made that the Shivans in normal space cannot communicate with the Shivans back home. Otherwise they would've sent a few more Lucifers.
e. If heightened subspace activity attracts Shivans, then wouldn't they have investigated the collapse of the Delta Serpentis-Sol jump node, or the outbreak of the NTF rebellion?
We know that subspace nodes, as a natural phenomenon, form and collapse of their own accord. The Shivans, being unable to communicate with the Lucifer (for reasons I will explain), probably would have regarded the collapse of the Sol node with indifference, regarding it as a natural collapse--or, at most, a direct result of the Shivan attack against the Alliance. The reduced subspace traffic following the destruction of the node--due to the great depletion of Allied forces <and the end of the war - knn> --would have been an indication to the Shivans that their enemies had been destroyed, and that no further investigation was necessary.
To the best of our knowledge, the NTF rebellion had been in progress for a mere eighteen months prior to the arrival of the Shivans. This figure pales in comparison to the Ancients' decades of rampant expansion, or the fourteen years of the Terran-Vasudan War. The activation of the Knossos involved subspace disruption on a larger scale, and would have merited the Shivans' more immediate attention.
It would seem simple logic to shut down the first Knossos possible, even if just to allow a longer fallback.
Yes, and it would fit in better with the FS1 monolog text (we could forego one system), but unfortunately it doesn't fit in with everything else. The second Knossos (the one in the nebula) was active, as well as the third. The GTVA likely doesn't have the technology to activate a Knossos. It's spinning. The Sathanas jumps in (the Shivans can use unstable jump nodes, but we assume that the Knossos locks a node when shut down, otherwise this entire argument would be irrelevant). It's activation was not mentioned in the briefings.
I can imagine, however, that the Ancients had much more portals. And the first time they encountered the Shivans, they locked down only one system. Then the Shivans came again. At one point they had to quickly evacuate (Shivans swarming into the system) and couldn't lock down the 2nd and 3rd Knossos, only the one in G Drac because the Shivans were on their doorsteps
The only problem with the idea of multiple Knossos portals (and with the fact that the Ancients did have more of them) is that the Shivans responded quickly in FS2. So the ancients must've built those devices really fast. It's more likely that the Shivans didn't respond so quickly, ignoring a few portals. But then why'd they respond to the activation of only one in FS2?
3) "If ever the Shivans return to threaten our worlds, we will be ready to face the challenge, securing peace for today and for generations to come."
Of course they had a plan. But it didn't work. The GTVA was so sure that the Colossus could beat anything the Shivans could throw at it that they didn't have a B plan.
You're right that the Shivans could've figured it out. But by that time, they were already planning to destroy Capella and retreat.
3)5) IIRC all they sent in was bombers. If they really wanted to destroy the Bastion more than anything else they could've done it. But it was not their primary goal anymore.
In either case, there's no basis for the assumption the Shivans did not know of the GTVA plans to destroy the nodes; the question is how much did they care, and it's pretty obvious the answer is 'not much'.
If that is true, then they might as well have figured out that the GTVA doesn't have 80 juggernauts (after the Bastion explodes). But why did they continue their tinkering with the star? Here comes theory #2: they jumped to Earth. Now that would be stupid, Earth has no access to subspace, and it would make FS3 too depressing.
Or they might've thought that the GTVA had a fleet in Vega, but was vulnerable in EP.
In any case, I'm still reluctant to accept that the Shivans immediately knew when the GTVA blew up the Knossos. At that point they didn't know about the Colossus, and that was before the SOC mission. They thought the GTVA was weak, and that one Sathanas was enough - the GTVA trying to destroy the Knossos only strengthened this
I consider the manifesto fairly meaningless as a source, and this is a good illustration why. It's ridden with assumptions because IMO it was likely wrote with the conclusion decided, and the question being how to crowbar in everything to fit.
FS3 should've been the conclusion of the Freespace saga, with the humans winning. Not necessarily by completely annihilating the shivans, but maybe by finding a way to coexist peacefully. It would be a great ending, the T-Vs (after defeating the shivan invasion force that was already in normal space, just to have some fun) find out how to prevent subspace damage, happy end etc. The shivan manifesto suggests this ending (altough it also suggests the annihilation of the Shivans, but we should disregard that, as that would be impossible for the GTVA to do).
There's no other conclusion for FS3 that I can think of. (i.e. one that would fit into a commercial game)
Nevertheless I don't agree with every single word in it. E.g. the Bosch monolog thing - read below
It's also worth noting that the only known human-Shivan meeting - Hallfight - had the humans fire first.
A big three-legged multi-eyed something that probably killed several humans before is running at you. What do you do?
A) Give him a warm hug
B) Show him the Vulcan hand gesture
C) Give him some Bosch Beer
D) Fire your machine gun
There's no reason for the assumption we are 'reading' Bosch' log atall for the monologues
Disregard that. It's a bad argument. It's based on the assumption that the Ancient monologs were found in Altair.
And, of course, we have no idea how large ETAK is
Why didn't the Trinity have one aboard? Why did Bosch need a special ship, the Iceni for the Etak?
(also, it's not exactly bloody likely Bosch would leave the Iceni to go with the Shivans without a method of communication, is it?)
Well, if the Shivans are so smart, he doesn't need one, they already have it.
Also, the Shivans did not destroy the Iceni after boarding it; why?
What was the mission after the boarding about???
In terms of the Shivans taking prisoners; there's no attempt to explain why the Shivans took command crew for this purported experiment rather than just people in general.
Well, maybe Bosch was at the airlock with his higher ranking officers waiting to greet the destroyers? (Ok, so that's weak)
And they attacked everyone else. Why would they do that? I doubt that the crew fired first: they were probably hand-picked by Bosch and knew the Shivans were coming aboard and that firing at them would be suicide.
But if the Shivans could really communicate with Bosch, why did they destroy Capella? Did Bosch make an alliance with the Shivans and convince them to spare humanity? That doesn't explain why they lose several juggernauts to seal off their new "allies". Or maybe Bosch told them that the Alliance had a hundred Colossus juggernauts waiting in ambush in Vega? And the GTVA sealed the Capella - EP node so that the Shivans could go only one way - right into the trap?
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Again, an assumption is made that the Shivans in normal space cannot communicate with the Shivans back home. Otherwise they would've sent a few more Lucifers.
Unless the Lucifer was an advance or scout force, to disrupt and soften the enemy for a larger strike. Perhaps overestimating the strength of the enemy (in terms of the following force). Or perhaps the Lucifer was one of only a few ships with a technological capability to permit that type of attack through unstable nodes; it's obviously a large assumption to make that the Lucifer was facilitating that type of travel or communication (although we should be able to expect it has some form of unique subspace ability, based on the red 'warp' points in the cutscene scripts). A further question would also be why the Shivans didn't have communication;
We know that subspace nodes, as a natural phenomenon, form and collapse of their own accord. The Shivans, being unable to communicate with the Lucifer (for reasons I will explain), probably would have regarded the collapse of the Sol node with indifference, regarding it as a natural collapse--or, at most, a direct result of the Shivan attack against the Alliance. The reduced subspace traffic following the destruction of the node--due to the great depletion of Allied forces <and the end of the war - knn> --would have been an indication to the Shivans that their enemies had been destroyed, and that no further investigation was necessary.
To the best of our knowledge, the NTF rebellion had been in progress for a mere eighteen months prior to the arrival of the Shivans. This figure pales in comparison to the Ancients' decades of rampant expansion, or the fourteen years of the Terran-Vasudan War. The activation of the Knossos involved subspace disruption on a larger scale, and would have merited the Shivans' more immediate attention.
Firstly, why would the Shivans regard the collapse of Sol as natural knowing of an ongoing conflict? Secondly, if they were trying to protect subspace, why would then not be concerned at such a destruction; especially when they would no doubt be aware of the massive energy required to collapse a stable node? Thirdly, the Shivans not only wiped out all Ancient vessels, they exterminated the entire race - any subspace travel would have been noted. Fourthly, there's no basis to suppose the post Great War period saw decreased subspace use; you would have at the least have had refugee traffic, the ongoing conflict between the GTI/GTVA/Shivans of Silent Threat, and quite possibly civil war or strife in the broken up GTA/GTVA.
This (arguement) relies far too heavily on the Shivans being careless and assuming victory despite losing contact - if they did - with their fleets flagship.
Yes, and it would fit in better with the FS1 monolog text (we could forego one system), but unfortunately it doesn't fit in with everything else. The second Knossos (the one in the nebula) was active, as well as the third. The GTVA likely doesn't have the technology to activate a Knossos. It's spinning. The Sathanas jumps in (the Shivans can use unstable jump nodes, but we assume that the Knossos locks a node when shut down, otherwise this entire argument would be irrelevant). It's activation was not mentioned in the briefings.
I can imagine, however, that the Ancients had much more portals. And the first time they encountered the Shivans, they locked down only one system. Then the Shivans came again. At one point they had to quickly evacuate (Shivans swarming into the system) and couldn't lock down the 2nd and 3rd Knossos, only the one in G Drac because the Shivans were on their doorsteps
The only problem with the idea of multiple Knossos portals (and with the fact that the Ancients did have more of them) is that the Shivans responded quickly in FS2. So the ancients must've built those devices really fast. It's more likely that the Shivans didn't respond so quickly, ignoring a few portals. But then why'd they respond to the activation of only one in FS2?
What makes you think that a) the Knosso gates weren't interlinked or b) the nodes around the other Knossos gates hadn't restabilised naturally (we know a node can stabilise when the Knossos has been activated and destroyed, it's not improbable a mechanical shutdown could have the same effect)? With regard to a), it's quite possible that Knossos' were daisy chained in a network to god-knows-where, and that the length of time the 80 Sathani took to arrive was down to that distance.
3) "If ever the Shivans return to threaten our worlds, we will be ready to face the challenge, securing peace for today and for generations to come."
Of course they had a plan. But it didn't work. The GTVA was so sure that the Colossus could beat anything the Shivans could throw at it that they didn't have a B plan.
You're right that the Shivans could've figured it out. But by that time, they were already planning to destroy Capella and retreat.
Why would the Shivans retreat once they realised the enemy had resorted to scorched earth and running away? The idea the Shivans retreated it bizarre if you base it on them having an interest in destroying the GTVA; simple maths would lead them to realize there were not the resources to build a large number of Colossi - as would the GTVAs relucatance to deploy that vessel beforehand (and the difficulty it had destroying the Sathanas, requiring softening up attacks and melting the emitters into the hull to actually inflict damage).
The GTVA would also ensure they had contingencies in place for the possibility of the Colossus failing; it's common sense and basic military planning. For one thing, they didn't know when the Shivans could return - why place all their eggs in a single basket that would take 20 years to build. And it's not likely they would have only been planning a defence post-Colossus; despite the fracturing of the GTA and VPN post war, odds on there would be plans being made for a defense should the Shivans return.
3)5) IIRC all they sent in was bombers. If they really wanted to destroy the Bastion more than anything else they could've done it. But it was not their primary goal anymore.
The 'anymore' part being the assumption shown here. If it ever was a primary goal to destroy the Bastion.
If that is true, then they might as well have figured out that the GTVA doesn't have 80 juggernauts (after the Bastion explodes). But why did they continue their tinkering with the star? Here comes theory #2: they jumped to Earth. Now that would be stupid, Earth has no access to subspace, and it would make FS3 too depressing.
Another theory; whatever the Shivans were doing in Capella has absolutely nothing to do with humanity or indeed the Vasudans. 'We' were just in their path as they went on their way.
Or they might've thought that the GTVA had a fleet in Vega, but was vulnerable in EP.
In any case, I'm still reluctant to accept that the Shivans immediately knew when the GTVA blew up the Knossos. At that point they didn't know about the Colossus, and that was before the SOC mission. They thought the GTVA was weak, and that one Sathanas was enough - the GTVA trying to destroy the Knossos only strengthened this
Given that the Sathanas proceeded literally seconds after the Knossos was destroyed by the GTVA, it'd be pretty obvious to the Shivans.
FS3 should've been the conclusion of the Freespace saga, with the humans winning. Not necessarily by completely annihilating the shivans, but maybe by finding a way to coexist peacefully. It would be a great ending, the T-Vs (after defeating the shivan invasion force that was already in normal space, just to have some fun) find out how to prevent subspace damage, happy end etc. The shivan manifesto suggests this ending (altough it also suggests the annihilation of the Shivans, but we should disregard that, as that would be impossible for the GTVA to do).
There's no other conclusion for FS3 that I can think of. (i.e. one that would fit into a commercial game)
Nevertheless I don't agree with every single word in it. E.g. the Bosch monolog thing - read below
I can come up with any number of endings for FS that involve less inherent contradiction than the Shivan Manifesto, but I don't pass it off as canonical as other people do for that document. There's an assumption that the Vasudans, for example would survive this, or that humanity would survive in the FS1/2 form as a spacefaring species. Freespace has a tendency for phyrric victories, after all.
Subspace damage, though, is a gigantic and complete guess.
A big three-legged multi-eyed something that probably killed several humans before is running at you. What do you do?
A) Give him a warm hug
B) Show him the Vulcan hand gesture
C) Give him some Bosch Beer
D) Fire your machine gun
And humans look as bug eyed to Shivans. Still that surprising they would have fired first in space?
Why didn't the Trinity have one aboard? Why did Bosch need a special ship, the Iceni for the Etak?
Why would Bosch put something that important in the hands of a cruiser? His entire plan was about the use of ETAK, it's inconceivable he would delegate something that vital to not only a lesser ranking officer, but a more vulnerable vessel. Also, the prototype had not been built at that point; it is described as under construction on the Iceni in the first SOC mission.
Whilst the Iceni is described as custom design for an NTF project, it is quite possible that project was having sufficient labs to study, construct and test the prototype, or to be used to obtain and anlyse Ancient artifiacts, to hide the ship within an asteroid, or simply to be a highly survivable 'blockade runner' type vessel to get into Shivan space.
Well, if the Shivans are so smart, he doesn't need one, they already have it.
That's pretty weak IMO.
Why would the Shivans need to develop one, when they've never been under threat? There's no reason for believing the Shivans have a diplomatic nature; their mentality may be, ahead of other goals, simply 'attack first'. They are alien, after all.
For all we can tell, they may not have thought of humanity (Ancients, etc) as even being capable of communication.
What was the mission after the boarding about???
Fair point, I missed (the Shivans initial presence in) that. Although IMO it's slightly unclear as to whether they attacked because the GTVA was in the area and bearing down on the Iceni; from what I remember it only occurred after contact was made, either visually or over comms.
Well, maybe Bosch was at the airlock with his higher ranking officers waiting to greet the destroyers? (Ok, so that's weak)
And they attacked everyone else. Why would they do that? I doubt that the crew fired first: they were probably hand-picked by Bosch and knew the Shivans were coming aboard and that firing at them would be suicide.
If the Shivans just wanted Bosch, why didn't they just take him (and command crew, etc) and destroy the Iceni? Why did they move through several decks, slaughtering the crew? How do we know if all the crew knew of the Shivans coming? That transport doesn't look large enough to take them all, does it?
But if the Shivans could really communicate with Bosch, why did they destroy Capella? Did Bosch make an alliance with the Shivans and convince them to spare humanity? That doesn't explain why they lose several juggernauts to seal off their new "allies".
Who said anything about sealing off? Maybe they wanted to open up?
And how do we know they intended to lose several juggernauts? Or even that several juggernauts are all that valuable to them. Maybe the SOCs actions in blowing up those comm nodes screwed up their plans? (NB: I think you're intended to assume SOC missions go ahead even if you don't do them yourself).
Or maybe Bosch told them that the Alliance had a hundred Colossus juggernauts waiting in ambush in Vega? And the GTVA sealed the Capella - EP node so that the Shivans could go only one way - right into the trap?
The Shivans would have to be awful trusting for that, wouldn't they? Plus that's assuming they can't study human physiology for signs of lying. Or that the torture/interrogation of the multiple humans they abducted wouldn't reveal cracks in said story. It also doesn't explain why Bosch would willingly commit suicide by taking this course of action. Also, evacuating an entire system is quite a big bluff to make for a trap, isn't it? Especially given the massive casualties experienced by the GTVA in doing so. Also, the Shivans destroyed a blockade at the Capella-GD node, which would raise further questions as to why the GTVA would not defend the chokepoint to an inhabited system like Capella, yet would sacrifice said inhabited system to do so.
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Why did the Shivan come during the T-V War? I think simply to end the conflict between the Terrans and Vasudans. We know that the Shivans have opposition to races using subspace to expand and/or wage war--this is evident with the Ancients' empire. Noticing that a war had broken out between two subspace-faring races, the Shivans were awaken and arrived to end the conflict by whatever means necessary--by unifying the races, or by completing wiping them out.
Yep end to conflict where we would gain tech, for them to use us later on.
Has anyone ever thought that maybe the Luci was not gonna wipe us out? If you look at it the Luci had the perfect amount of reactors to destroy a Jump Node. Once V Prime was destroyed, it would bring the races closer in a last ditch effort to destroy the thing. And then therefor advancing Tech.
Then blow up the SOL jump node, and then wait. Wait until someone finds out how to open the Knossos. Once that happens, wage another war, take the one you tricked so he couldn't tell and take the information of how to open the Knossos, then end it in a way the races wouldn't suspect anything.
Then wait until they build the SOL knossos, and then since you now know how to use the Knossos, use it like you've planed it all alone.
All along the Shivans could have wanted to learn how to open Knossos portals, perhaps the Ancients traped them here with Knossos portals, falling back on what I said before about them closing Nodes as well as creating them.
Also maybe the GTI knew this and tried to stop it themselves, because the GTVA was too stupid to listen, and then why the remaining Shivans tried so hard to destroy them, so they couldn't tell.The GTI had captured live Shivans, so they could have found out the Trap from one of their minds. The crashed Hades in the FS2 intro could have been a plot point, supplying the data to a yound pilot who found out this and tried to save our races, only to be caught in a deeper plot and trap.
In all, the whole FS storyline sounds like a well built trap. The hive minded Shivans everyone thought of would in fact be smarter than everyone could think
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Unless the Lucifer was an advance or scout force, to disrupt and soften the enemy for a larger strike. Perhaps overestimating the strength of the enemy (in terms of the following force). Or perhaps the Lucifer was one of only a few ships with a technological capability to permit that type of attack through unstable nodes; it's obviously a large assumption to make that the Lucifer was facilitating that type of travel or communication (although we should be able to expect it has some form of unique subspace ability, based on the red 'warp' points in the cutscene scripts). A further question would also be why the Shivans didn't have communication;
Communication with the Shivan homeworld is probably impossible because it's so difficult to reach it that you need to do what the Shivans did to Capella.
The Lucifer was dispatched with a big fleet to destroy any race that discovers subspace in this area of the universe. It was the center of the fleet, possibly having the same role as the shivan comm nodes. The red jump point may mean that the Lucifer was the only ship capable of creating temporary jump points or using unstable jump points. And the unique impervious shield system might've been designed for a different purpose than we think.
It was probably also the same ship that destroyed the Ancients.
Firstly, why would the Shivans regard the collapse of Sol as natural knowing of an ongoing conflict? Secondly, if they were trying to protect subspace, why would then not be concerned at such a destruction; especially when they would no doubt be aware of the massive energy required to collapse a stable node? Thirdly, the Shivans not only wiped out all Ancient vessels, they exterminated the entire race - any subspace travel would have been noted. Fourthly, there's no basis to suppose the post Great War period saw decreased subspace use; you would have at the least have had refugee traffic, the ongoing conflict between the GTI/GTVA/Shivans of Silent Threat, and quite possibly civil war or strife in the broken up GTA/GTVA.
Nodes collapse and form on their own, naturally. Supernovas happen.
Now, consider this (taken from the ref bible):
Human archeologists and geologists have often been amazed that Vasuda Prime was capable of producing an intelligent species like the Vasudans.
The ref bible suggests that the Ancients helped the Vasudans
It is suspected that the Vasudans may have actually been visited long ago in their past by another race, simply called “the Ancients”.
And also
It’s also been speculated that Vasudans were originally forced prematurely into space in order to gain the resources needed for their species’ survival.
Now the Ancients were exterminated 8000 years ago.
it is unlikely that Vasuda Prime could have sustained a primitive race for long enough to develop space travel
So when do you think Vasudans developed space travel? in the 24th century? That contradicts this canonical statement.
No, they developed it much earlier. BUT they knew of the Ancients' fate and feared it. They expanded only to the nearby systems. They never developed advanced technology, as they were afraid of the Shivans. However, in the many years, they slowly forgot the warnings, and by the time humanity discovered subspace, the Vasudans began expanding as well.
Once the Ancients were defeated, the Lucifer returned to it's duties elsewhere. Or perhaps it was capable of returning to the Shivan homeworld without the need for a nova.*
However the Vasudans provided some minimal subspace traffic that did not offend the Shivans. Also, what happened to the many races subdued by the Ancients? When the ancients left for their homeworld, abandoning their empire, they probably left them there. The rest of their story would then be the same as the Vasudans'. Except the Terrans never met them. This suggests that the Ancients' empire must've been much larger. Some of those freed races may've even been exterminated by the Shivans sometime between 8000 years ago and 2335, while others are still far away or separated from the GTVA by unstable nodes.
Still one question remains: Why were the Ancients friendly towards the Vasudans when they crushed others? I will once again quote the ref bible
Human archeologists and geologists have often been amazed that Vasuda Prime was capable of producing an intelligent species like the Vasudans.
Maybe it was not. Maybe the Vasudans are in fact Ancients. The survivors of a crashed ship perhaps, or refugees? And the whole thing about the Ancients visiting them is just something they lied to themselves and to their children because they wanted to forget they are in fact the Ancients.
So we assume that the Lucifer couldn't communicate with the homeworld. The Shivans at home don't know where the Terran homeworld is. They cannot know for certain that the destruction of the three nodes is connected to the actions of their fleet (maybe they think it's a nova, but then again that would mean the gravity of the sun changes radically, which the Shivans can probably detect from subspace). The amount of subspace traffic reduces. Refugees make one trip, and the fleet of both races is much smaller than before the war. We would expect that much more combat occurs in subspace with the new tracking technology. However we did not see any subspace combat in FS2 and Silent Threat (IIRC, that game was so bad I forgot most of it). The first time I saw that happen after FS1 was in Derelict. So this seems to be unfounded. Maybe it's not that easy to do as we think (you have to jump quickly after the ship you are attacking).
This (arguement) relies far too heavily on the Shivans being careless and assuming victory despite losing contact - if they did - with their fleets flagship.
They didn't lose contact according to the manifesto, they never had it.
*But this still brings up the question why the Shivans sent no reinforcements. The Lucifer's mission was obviously a failure (even though Earth was sealed off (which is almost like bombarding it), the rest of the GTA/PVN provided lots of subspace traffic). And the Shivans would be extremely angry (or the equivalent shivan reaction) that a primitive race like the terrans discovered a way to hurt their superdestroyers, and would immediately send reinforcements to wipe them out and prevent any other races from obtaining this knowledge. Altough the only ship capable of contacting the Shivan homeworld was destroyed, the Shivans would've expected the Lucifer to resupply, and they probably detected the explosion and deduced from the two that the Lucifer must've been destroyed.
What makes you think that a) the Knosso gates weren't interlinked or b) the nodes around the other Knossos gates hadn't restabilised naturally (we know a node can stabilise when the Knossos has been activated and destroyed, it's not improbable a mechanical shutdown could have the same effect)? With regard to a), it's quite possible that Knossos' were daisy chained in a network to god-knows-where, and that the length of time the 80 Sathani took to arrive was down to that distance.
a) Why would they be interlinked??? Suppose the ancients closed down portal 45 (portal 1 being the one closest to their home, the one in G Drac)
Then the shivans circumvented it. Then the ancients closed down portal 30, then 22 etc. In the end they closed portal 1. When they open portal 1, do they also want portal 22, 30 and 45 to open, allowing the Shivans direct access to their space???
b) possible, if you are reffering to the second and third Knossos. But the portals were spinning, which suggests they were active. It's not that important wether the other portals were active or not, though I like to think they were simply because of the spinning.
I assume a standard shutdown is not like a sudden destruction of the portal. I've used a real life example before: The rotors of a helicopter keep rotating even after the engine has been shut down. If you turn the engine into reverse for a few seconds, It'll stop the rotors. You can also lock the roitors in place to prevent them from rotating. This is a bit far from subspace physics, but it's similar. I think the Knossos has the ability to LOCK nodes, preventing their natural restabilization. This is probably a retrofit, designed after the Shivans attacked.
simple maths would lead them to realize there were not the resources to build a large number of Colossi - as would the GTVAs relucatance to deploy that vessel beforehand (and the difficulty it had destroying the Sathanas, requiring softening up attacks and melting the emitters into the hull to actually inflict damage).
The Shivans don't know how many resources we have. The GTVA was not reluctant to deploy the vessel beforehand. IMHO they did it in the right time: the Shivans didn't expect that kind of resistance when the first Sathanas entered Capella. They probably knew the Sathanas was stronger than the Colossus (or they found out in Their Finest Hour).
I'm not going to argue about the retreating part though. I think the shivan comm nodes might have something to do with this, then again, that brings up other problems (why were they placed in only one system, right beside a jump point to hostile teritory if they were so important).
And humans look as bug eyed to Shivans. Still that surprising they would have fired first in space?
They (the humans) didn't fire first in space. The Shivans attacked first.
I've read the ref bible tho, and it says the Shivans stop to investigate, then the human fires. Still, I'm pretty sure the Shivans would've attacked. Did they wait for humans to fire first when they attacked the very first Terran ship?
I can come up with any number of endings for FS that involve less inherent contradiction than the Shivan Manifesto, but I don't pass it off as canonical as other people do for that document. There's an assumption that the Vasudans, for example would survive this, or that humanity would survive in the FS1/2 form as a spacefaring species. Freespace has a tendency for phyrric victories, after all.
Subspace damage, though, is a gigantic and complete guess.
I'm not saying that subspace damage should have anything to do with the ending. Freespace does have a tendency for phyrric victories, but I believe the ending for the entire story should've been a happy end. Everyone wants to see the humans finally winning, another phyrric victory would be too disappointing and would spoil the end for most gamers ("What, I completed the game to see Earth toasted?? This game sux"). Humanity surviving in the FS1/2 form is not an ending. It means that the Shivans will return. Something we do not want to happen.
Why would Bosch put something that important in the hands of a cruiser? His entire plan was about the use of ETAK, it's inconceivable he would delegate something that vital to not only a lesser ranking officer, but a more vulnerable vessel. Also, the prototype had not been built at that point; it is described as under construction on the Iceni in the first SOC mission.
Whilst the Iceni is described as custom design for an NTF project, it is quite possible that project was having sufficient labs to study, construct and test the prototype, or to be used to obtain and anlyse Ancient artifiacts, to hide the ship within an asteroid, or simply to be a highly survivable 'blockade runner' type vessel to get into Shivan space.
If it's really just a piece of software, why couldn't he have one copy on the Trinity?
their mentality may be, ahead of other goals, simply 'attack first'.
You're contradicting your own statements (Hallfight)
And that wasn't serious
Or maybe Bosch told them that the Alliance had a hundred Colossus juggernauts waiting in ambush in Vega? And the GTVA sealed the Capella - EP node so that the Shivans could go only one way - right into the trap?
that too
If the Shivans just wanted Bosch, why didn't they just take him (and command crew, etc) and destroy the Iceni? Why did they move through several decks, slaughtering the crew? How do we know if all the crew knew of the Shivans coming? That transport doesn't look large enough to take them all, does it?
Who said anything about taking all of the crew? And why wouldn't Bosch tell his crew "The Shivans are about to board the ship, please don't fire at them." or something?
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There were two transports, as well.
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Communication with the Shivan homeworld is probably impossible because it's so difficult to reach it that you need to do what the Shivans did to Capella.
The Lucifer was dispatched with a big fleet to destroy any race that discovers subspace in this area of the universe. It was the center of the fleet, possibly having the same role as the shivan comm nodes. The red jump point may mean that the Lucifer was the only ship capable of creating temporary jump points or using unstable jump points. And the unique impervious shield system might've been designed for a different purpose than we think.
It was probably also the same ship that destroyed the Ancients.
Firstly, we don't know whether the Shivan have, or ever had a homeworld. Or whether they can communicate with it atall, if we view their actions in Capella as trying to create a supernode to either reach a new home, or return to an old one (ala Earth being cut off, except Earth becomes the Milky Way).
The Lucifer fleet seems relatively small compared to the FS2 armada. It's impossible to gauge actual relative size, of course, as we don't know the extent of the entire Shivan fleet. IIRC an old interview with daveb (before rights became an issue) on the possibility of an FS3 mentioned the idea of ships large enough to have their own gravity well.... I'd think there's a strong chance that might be Shivan.
And yes, the Lucifer may have been the only ship capable of traversing unstable nodes, albeit that does raise an issue of where exactly the rest of the fleet came from (flooding into unconnected - via stable nodes - systems), unless the Lucifer had a generational node. The shield also is quite likely to have some other role, perhaps involved in subspace traversal, although that's obviously a guessing point.
I think it's worth noting, though, that the ancients monologues imply multiple lucifer class destroyers. I think the script mentions something like 'we can hurt their key ships, but do not have the means'; the emphasis being ships plural. One issue is that the Lucifer destroying the Ancients would imply 8000 years of technical stagnation, at least in terms of that FS1 fleet, and then suddenly having 80 Sathani with beam and flak weapons pop up in 60 years or so.
Nodes collapse and form on their own, naturally. Supernovas happen.
But it is predictable; that's how nodes are marked as stable for travel. Supernova are also predictable, and AFAIK pretty rare. Plus IIRC Sol is not the type of star that can supernova. And it'd still be a massive coincidence - a node is destroyed and communications lost with your flagship, and you just assume that means you've won the war? (!)
So when do you think Vasudans developed space travel? in the 24th century? That contradicts this canonical statement.
No, they developed it much earlier. BUT they knew of the Ancients' fate and feared it. They expanded only to the nearby systems. They never developed advanced technology, as they were afraid of the Shivans. However, in the many years, they slowly forgot the warnings, and by the time humanity discovered subspace, the Vasudans began expanding as well.
Once the Ancients were defeated, the Lucifer returned to it's duties elsewhere. Or perhaps it was capable of returning to the Shivan homeworld without the need for a nova.*
Firstly, the Vasudans certainly knew of the Ancients (although I'd wager - as the Ancients subjugated species - they were being used as slaves as much as being helped), and their legends, mythology, etc includes the concept of the Shivans. but it's also worth noting that the mythology was very old and 'garbled'; to me this would imply they did not have accurate record-keeping technology at that point in time when the Ancients were destroyed, or that they had undergone a technological regression. It's important, I think, that the legend of the Great destroyers was a seemingly obscure cult during the TV war.
Also, with reference to supporting the Vasudans on V.Prime; there are several meanings that can be drawn from this. Obviously, there's the ancient refugees / ancient assistance (or scavenging ancient technology) side of things. Or there's also the possibility that 'prematurely' means with respect to their technological and societal evolution, i.e. that they reached space at an earlier time than humanity did. But if the Vasudans were scared of the Shivans, why did they allow the war rather than arrange peace? Why would they spread atall?
However the Vasudans provided some minimal subspace traffic that did not offend the Shivans. Also, what happened to the many races subdued by the Ancients? When the ancients left for their homeworld, abandoning their empire, they probably left them there. The rest of their story would then be the same as the Vasudans'. Except the Terrans never met them. This suggests that the Ancients' empire must've been much larger. Some of those freed races may've even been exterminated by the Shivans sometime between 8000 years ago and 2335, while others are still far away or separated from the GTVA by unstable nodes.
And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestrial species.
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.
The Ancients empire is already known to be far larger than the GTVA, even discounting the somewhat ambigious references to colonising 'other galaxies' in the monolgues.
Maybe it was not. Maybe the Vasudans are in fact Ancients. The survivors of a crashed ship perhaps, or refugees? And the whole thing about the Ancients visiting them is just something they lied to themselves and to their children because they wanted to forget they are in fact the Ancients.
Again, this is a widely conceived idea - IIRC it was used for OTT. But there are several problems IMO; firstly why would refugees want to abandon their culture? Who they are? Also, IIRC Vasudan mythology also referred to a sudden/abrupt departure of the Ancients, more consistent with an evacuation than an arrival and blending. Importantly, would Ancients be all that adapted to survive upon Vasuda Prime; because the Vasudans are well evolved for that environment - this would mean either the Ancients engineered themselves to survive there (the time issues could be a problem in terms of sudden refugee evacuation), or the Ancients evolved on a similar planet (which just re-raises the issues of how intelligent life could have evolved in that type of environment).
It's possible, but I'm not sure whether it's plausible or not.
So we assume that the Lucifer couldn't communicate with the homeworld.
No, we can't make that assumption. We can't even assume that they have a homeworld, for one thing. Or that the ships seen in FS2 weren't actually reinforcements in response to a distress signal - for all we know the Shivans have a different concept of relative time.
The Shivans at home don't know where the Terran homeworld is.
See above, albeit with the caveat we don't know if they ever knew where Sol was.
They cannot know for certain that the destruction of the three nodes is connected to the actions of their fleet (maybe they think it's a nova, but then again that would mean the gravity of the sun changes radically, which the Shivans can probably detect from subspace). The amount of subspace traffic reduces. Refugees make one trip, and the fleet of both races is much smaller than before the war.
Firstly, the co-ordination of 80 Sathani kind of implies some planning, and thus knowledge of what was happening. Also, the simple fact they travelled to Capella would require some sort of co-ordination; regardless of Shivan hierarchy (hive mind, groupmind, individuals, etc), those ships have to come from somewhere.
It's also assumptative to assume subspace traffic decreases with a massive depopulation. IMO it's equally as likely it would actually increase with millions of people trying to reach resettlement camps. Also, although the fleet is decreased, that would also have a knock on effect of longer patrols, more need to move the ships around to cover any defensive gaps (the Shivans ability to jump into seemingly any system in FS1 means you can't just leave systems unprotected).
We would expect that much more combat occurs in subspace with the new tracking technology. However we did not see any subspace combat in FS2 and Silent Threat (IIRC, that game was so bad I forgot most of it). The first time I saw that happen after FS1 was in Derelict. So this seems to be unfounded. Maybe it's not that easy to do as we think (you have to jump quickly after the ship you are attacking).
It's simply too dangerous; it's only of value against shielded capships, and there aren't many of those, plus there is the risk of collapse (Also referenced in the FSRef bible, IIRC in the subtext before the arc where you recover the tracking technology. I would expect less combat in subspace, not more; especially with more heavy damage weapons such as beams allowing for more damaging blockades (and negating shields).
They didn't lose contact according to the manifesto, they never had it.
According to the manifesto. Which is largely evidenceless.
*But this still brings up the question why the Shivans sent no reinforcements. The Lucifer's mission was obviously a failure (even though Earth was sealed off (which is almost like bombarding it), the rest of the GTA/PVN provided lots of subspace traffic). And the Shivans would be extremely angry (or the equivalent shivan reaction) that a primitive race like the terrans discovered a way to hurt their superdestroyers, and would immediately send reinforcements to wipe them out and prevent any other races from obtaining this knowledge. Altough the only ship capable of contacting the Shivan homeworld was destroyed, the Shivans would've expected the Lucifer to resupply, and they probably detected the explosion and deduced from the two that the Lucifer must've been destroyed.
Of course. Assuming the FS2 fleet wasn't the reinforcements, and the FS1 fleet was actually an attack rather than recon or scout fleet. Albeit we don't know how valuable the Lucifer was to the Shivans, given the relative antiquity (to FS2 Shivan tech and in size) of it's supporting fleet.
a) Why would they be interlinked??? Suppose the ancients closed down portal 45 (portal 1 being the one closest to their home, the one in G Drac)
Then the shivans circumvented it. Then the ancients closed down portal 30, then 22 etc. In the end they closed portal 1. When they open portal 1, do they also want portal 22, 30 and 45 to open, allowing the Shivans direct access to their space???
b) possible, if you are reffering to the second and third Knossos. But the portals were spinning, which suggests they were active. It's not that important wether the other portals were active or not, though I like to think they were simply because of the spinning.
I assume a standard shutdown is not like a sudden destruction of the portal. I've used a real life example before: The rotors of a helicopter keep rotating even after the engine has been shut down. If you turn the engine into reverse for a few seconds, It'll stop the rotors. You can also lock the roitors in place to prevent them from rotating. This is a bit far from subspace physics, but it's similar. I think the Knossos has the ability to LOCK nodes, preventing their natural restabilization. This is probably a retrofit, designed after the Shivans attacked.
a)Why not? The Ancients didn't build the Knossos gates to meet the Shivans, after all, so that tactical part of it wouldn't have been so much of an issue. Especially as the Ancients were somewhat arrogant. Perhaps it was advantageous for the Ancients to be able to suddenly close down a large portion of space. Perhaps the portals were designed to be able to wake other portals upon reactivation, and Bosch used this. Because there are several unknowns here; principally whether the other knossos' were active and, if not, how they were activated. An effective system reboot might have been part of the design, or perhaps the gates were intended to be always on and the network was simply 'password protected'.
Worth noting we don't know that portal '1', i.e. GD, is actually closest to the Ancients homeworld, though. quite possible there are more undiscovered portals lying about.
b)The portal being active doesn't mean that a) it always was or b)the node is unstable otherwise. As for the Knossos locking nodes; it's an idea I personally like, but it's possibly telling that it was never even mentioned as possible in the various briefs on the Knossos in GD. In terms of restabilisation, AFAIK the restabilising of the GD node was always attibuted to the use of the Knossos, not it's destruction.
The Shivans don't know how many resources we have. The GTVA was not reluctant to deploy the vessel beforehand. IMHO they did it in the right time: the Shivans didn't expect that kind of resistance when the first Sathanas entered Capella. They probably knew the Sathanas was weaker than the Colossus (or they found out in Their Finest Hour).
The GTVA described the deployment of the Colossus as a last resort tactic in the briefs. You can view the loss of the Sathanas as a defeat, but in the other hand, they loss less than 1/81th of their operational fleet, succeeded in inflicting heavy damage on a large number of GTVA vessels (blockades, etc), drove deep into enemy territory (into Capella, IIRC), discovered the GTVAs strongest weapon (and learnt of RBCs), and the tactics likely to be used against a Sathanas class vessel. If you remove the loss of the juggernaut - which may or may not have been all that important to the Shivans, we can't tell - then it would have been a pretty good combat recon mission.
Relative technology and ship numbers, not to mention the likes of Bosch, data gathered (possibly) from the computers of the Iceni, and any received Great-War intel would surely give a good idea of the GTVA strength and resources.
I'm not going to argue about the retreating part though. I think the shivan comm nodes might have something to do with this, then again, that brings up other problems (why were they placed in only one system, right beside a jump point to hostile teritory if they were so important).
Frontline logistics? Comms relay stations?
The system they were in wasn't all that insecure, though. It was (seemingly) a staging post for a mass of ships, as the GTVA was retreating on all fronts. Let's not forget the SOC mission was an act of sheer and utter lunacy, after all.
They (the humans) didn't fire first in space. The Shivans attacked first.
I've read the ref bible tho, and it says the Shivans stop to investigate, then the human fires. Still, I'm pretty sure the Shivans would've attacked. Did they wait for humans to fire first when they attacked the very first Terran ship?
We don't actually know. AFAIK it's suggested the GTI actually had first contact in Silent Threat, but it's never made clear what the first incident was. All the debriefs mention is a series of incidents.
I'm not saying that subspace damage should have anything to do with the ending. Freespace does have a tendency for phyrric victories, but I believe the ending for the entire story should've been a happy end. Everyone wants to see the humans finally winning, another phyrric victory would be too disappointing and would spoil the end for most gamers ("What, I completed the game to see Earth toasted?? This game sux"). Humanity surviving in the FS1/2 form is not an ending. It means that the Shivans will return. Something we do not want to happen.
Why would a phyrric ending necessarily involve Earth being destroyed? Perhaps it would require earth being left isolated to protect it. Perhaps Earth would emerge the only survivors. Maybe the Shivans and/or Bosch would turn out to be the 'good guys' of a sort, and be annihilated. Maybe humanity would defeat the Shivans, only to find they had been 'protecting' them from some far greater threat, etc. IMO one of the key themes of FS has been sacrifice, after all. Sacrifice of Sol to save it from the Lucifer (unintentional as it may be), the sacrifice of the Colossus, etc.
If it's really just a piece of software, why couldn't he have one copy on the Trinity?
Because he didn't trust or want them to make first contact? Because the Trinity didn't know his plan to contact the Shivans? Plenty of reasons.
You're contradicting your own statements (Hallfight)
That's because I'm pointing out inconsistencies in theories deriven from fan-stories like the Shivan Manifesto, not what my own storyline would be (or is). I think you're also misunderstanding what I mean, too; that the Shivans can have an overreaching goal that doesn't really care about humanity, etc, but still also have an instinctual urge to attack non-Shivans.
Who said anything about taking all of the crew? And why wouldn't Bosch tell his crew "The Shivans are about to board the ship, please don't fire at them." or something?
Bosch was scuttling the ship - I don't think 2 transports are large enough for the crew of a corvette, myself, although I guess I could be wrong. If Bosch was going to abandon the ship and set the self-destruct without taking his entire crew with him, though, then I doubt that crew would be very co-operative. Perhaps they attacked the Shivans when Bosch set the self-destruct, to try and recover him and thus his access codes. It's also possible someone screwed up. Or that the Shivans came in firing- I wouldn't put it beyond them to lie, after all.
(Boschs' monologue mentions the crew leaving with him; this is unclear in itself to me - does he mean the loyal officers or the whole crew? Could you fit the xx thousand people on the Iceni onto Shivan transports? When did Bosch set the self destruct? Did the crew expect to leave - and if so, were they spread across several decks rather than mustered as it would seem?)
Whatever the Shivans did, they proceeded across several decks fighting with the crew. Why this happened would be somewhat unclear - to get key NTF personnel from the bowels of the ship? To kill everyone there who was a witness (why, when they could just destroy the ship)? To recover ETAK and Ancients technology?
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Communication with the Shivan homeworld is probably impossible because it's so difficult to reach it that you need to do what the Shivans did to Capella.
The Lucifer was dispatched with a big fleet to destroy any race that discovers subspace in this area of the universe. It was the center of the fleet, possibly having the same role as the shivan comm nodes. The red jump point may mean that the Lucifer was the only ship capable of creating temporary jump points or using unstable jump points. And the unique impervious shield system might've been designed for a different purpose than we think.
It was probably also the same ship that destroyed the Ancients.
Firstly, we don't know whether the Shivan have, or ever had a homeworld. Or whether they can communicate with it atall, if we view their actions in Capella as trying to create a supernode to either reach a new home, or return to an old one (ala Earth being cut off, except Earth becomes the Milky Way).
Petrarch suggests they needed the nova to get home. This may be a clue from :V:. But don't think of the homeworld as a planet, or even a centralized location in subspace
The Lucifer fleet seems relatively small compared to the FS2 armada. It's impossible to gauge actual relative size, of course, as we don't know the extent of the entire Shivan fleet. IIRC an old interview with daveb (before rights became an issue) on the possibility of an FS3 mentioned the idea of ships large enough to have their own gravity well.... I'd think there's a strong chance that might be Shivan.
In fact I had an idea just like that, a huge mothership that would be the base of the Shivan fleet
And yes, the Lucifer may have been the only ship capable of traversing unstable nodes, albeit that does raise an issue of where exactly the rest of the fleet came from (flooding into unconnected - via stable nodes - systems), unless the Lucifer had a generational node. The shield also is quite likely to have some other role, perhaps involved in subspace traversal, although that's obviously a guessing point.
They probably used the corridor created by the Lucifer As long as the Lucifer is in subspace, the corridor should not collapse. The shield might have been designed to protect something in the Lucifer that cannot exist in normal space otherwise. The shield doesn't work in subspace because it's not supposed to. This thing in the Lucifer might've had the similar role as the comm nodes
I think it's worth noting, though, that the ancients monologues imply multiple lucifer class destroyers. I think the script mentions something like 'we can hurt their key ships, but do not have the means'; the emphasis being ships plural. One issue is that the Lucifer destroying the Ancients would imply 8000 years of technical stagnation, at least in terms of that FS1 fleet, and then suddenly having 80 Sathani with beam and flak weapons pop up in 60 years or so.
That is just the script. IIRC it is not directly mentioned in the game. However, it is strongly implied, and it is infact possible. The other Lucifers might've been on a different mission far away from Earth, and one Lucifer was deemed enough to defeat the T-Vs
Nodes collapse and form on their own, naturally. Supernovas happen.
But it is predictable; that's how nodes are marked as stable for travel. Supernova are also predictable, and AFAIK pretty rare. Plus IIRC Sol is not the type of star that can supernova. And it'd still be a massive coincidence - a node is destroyed and communications lost with your flagship, and you just assume that means you've won the war? (!)
Yes, and the Shivans certainly had a way to predict it. And IIRC Sol will go supernova, but it won't turn into a black hole. In any case, something will change radically. It's possible that the Shivans only know the amount of gravity each star and planet has, nothing more about them. So they can't predict supernovas IMO. And I'm still saying they did not lose contact - they did not have contact at all.
So when do you think Vasudans developed space travel? in the 24th century? That contradicts this canonical statement.
No, they developed it much earlier. BUT they knew of the Ancients' fate and feared it. They expanded only to the nearby systems. They never developed advanced technology, as they were afraid of the Shivans. However, in the many years, they slowly forgot the warnings, and by the time humanity discovered subspace, the Vasudans began expanding as well.
Once the Ancients were defeated, the Lucifer returned to it's duties elsewhere. Or perhaps it was capable of returning to the Shivan homeworld without the need for a nova.*
Firstly, the Vasudans certainly knew of the Ancients (although I'd wager - as the Ancients subjugated species - they were being used as slaves as much as being helped), and their legends, mythology, etc includes the concept of the Shivans. but it's also worth noting that the mythology was very old and 'garbled'; to me this would imply they did not have accurate record-keeping technology at that point in time when the Ancients were destroyed, or that they had undergone a technological regression. It's important, I think, that the legend of the Great destroyers was a seemingly obscure cult during the TV war.
Maybe they were subjugated, and when the Ancients left, they were left with ancient technology they didn't dare use for centuries.
Also, with reference to supporting the Vasudans on V.Prime; there are several meanings that can be drawn from this. Obviously, there's the ancient refugees / ancient assistance (or scavenging ancient technology) side of things. Or there's also the possibility that 'prematurely' means with respect to their technological and societal evolution, i.e. that they reached space at an earlier time than humanity did. But if the Vasudans were scared of the Shivans, why did they allow the war rather than arrange peace? Why would they spread atall?
You mean the T-V war? Because the leaders and the majority of the Vasudans regarded the 8000 year old prophecies as mythology. They gradually lost their fear of the destroyers
However the Vasudans provided some minimal subspace traffic that did not offend the Shivans. Also, what happened to the many races subdued by the Ancients? When the ancients left for their homeworld, abandoning their empire, they probably left them there. The rest of their story would then be the same as the Vasudans'. Except the Terrans never met them. This suggests that the Ancients' empire must've been much larger. Some of those freed races may've even been exterminated by the Shivans sometime between 8000 years ago and 2335, while others are still far away or separated from the GTVA by unstable nodes.
And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestrial species.
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.
Why did you quote that? I said leave for their homeworld. That means leave whereever they are now and go to their homeworld, no?
The Ancients empire is already known to be far larger than the GTVA, even discounting the somewhat ambigious references to colonising 'other galaxies' in the monolgues.
Maybe it was not. Maybe the Vasudans are in fact Ancients. The survivors of a crashed ship perhaps, or refugees? And the whole thing about the Ancients visiting them is just something they lied to themselves and to their children because they wanted to forget they are in fact the Ancients.
Again, this is a widely conceived idea - IIRC it was used for OTT. But there are several problems IMO; firstly why would refugees want to abandon their culture? Who they are? Also, IIRC Vasudan mythology also referred to a sudden/abrupt departure of the Ancients, more consistent with an evacuation than an arrival and blending. Importantly, would Ancients be all that adapted to survive upon Vasuda Prime; because the Vasudans are well evolved for that environment - this would mean either the Ancients engineered themselves to survive there (the time issues could be a problem in terms of sudden refugee evacuation), or the Ancients evolved on a similar planet (which just re-raises the issues of how intelligent life could have evolved in that type of environment).
It's possible, but I'm not sure whether it's plausible or not.
Think of the Kushans in Homeworld. The Vasudan mythology might be just a complete lie, created to separate the Ancient culture from the Vasudan culture, setting the Ancient culture as a bad example. They wouldn't want their children to know their true origins, because their children would want to rebuild the empire, thinking they can defeat the Shivans. They wanted the Vasudan culture to be the opposite of the Ancient: a race of artists and scientist, instead of a race of conquerors. And the Vasudans were not adapted to their homeworld much, except maybe their skin changed. They live in domed and underground cities. IMO the Ancients had the technology to survive on Vasuda with them from the moment they arrived
So we assume that the Lucifer couldn't communicate with the homeworld.
No, we can't make that assumption. We can't even assume that they have a homeworld, for one thing. Or that the ships seen in FS2 weren't actually reinforcements in response to a distress signal - for all we know the Shivans have a different concept of relative time.
It's possible, but for a race so advanced, why would it take them 32 years to arrive to the edge of GTVA space, only to be separated by a locked door they cannot open from their side?
The Shivans at home don't know where the Terran homeworld is.
See above, albeit with the caveat we don't know if they ever knew where Sol was.
The Lucifer did
They cannot know for certain that the destruction of the three nodes is connected to the actions of their fleet (maybe they think it's a nova, but then again that would mean the gravity of the sun changes radically, which the Shivans can probably detect from subspace). The amount of subspace traffic reduces. Refugees make one trip, and the fleet of both races is much smaller than before the war.
Firstly, the co-ordination of 80 Sathani kind of implies some planning, and thus knowledge of what was happening. Also, the simple fact they travelled to Capella would require some sort of co-ordination; regardless of Shivan hierarchy (hive mind, groupmind, individuals, etc), those ships have to come from somewhere.
IMO the Shivans live in subspace. When they detect large subspace activity, they send a considerable force to investigate. They don't send it smack in the middle of the enemy, because as far as they know, the enemy might have 100 juggernaugts protecting the central colonies. Instead they send it to the edge of the enemies space. Like the systems that the GTA lost contact with before Ross 128. However, once they send in that fleet, communication is either impossible or requires the Lucifer's special drive. The coordination of the forces in normal space is done by the Lucifer (hence the disorganized fleet after it's destruction) or something else in FS2
It's also assumptative to assume subspace traffic decreases with a massive depopulation. IMO it's equally as likely it would actually increase with millions of people trying to reach resettlement camps. Also, although the fleet is decreased, that would also have a knock on effect of longer patrols, more need to move the ships around to cover any defensive gaps (the Shivans ability to jump into seemingly any system in FS1 means you can't just leave systems unprotected).
There might be an increase for a short time, but a decrease is equally possible after that. This means to the Shivans that the refugee ships got shot down.
We would expect that much more combat occurs in subspace with the new tracking technology. However we did not see any subspace combat in FS2 and Silent Threat (IIRC, that game was so bad I forgot most of it). The first time I saw that happen after FS1 was in Derelict. So this seems to be unfounded. Maybe it's not that easy to do as we think (you have to jump quickly after the ship you are attacking).
It's simply too dangerous; it's only of value against shielded capships, and there aren't many of those, plus there is the risk of collapse (Also referenced in the FSRef bible, IIRC in the subtext before the arc where you recover the tracking technology. I would expect less combat in subspace, not more; especially with more heavy damage weapons such as beams allowing for more damaging blockades (and negating shields).
Actually, it could also occur when someone tries to escape and you follow into subspace. Beams are also not available yet. But otherwise I agree, subspace combat doesn't happen too often
They didn't lose contact according to the manifesto, they never had it.
According to the manifesto. Which is largely evidenceless.
Yes, but I was just defending the argument in the manifesto, that's why I referenced it.
*But this still brings up the question why the Shivans sent no reinforcements. The Lucifer's mission was obviously a failure (even though Earth was sealed off (which is almost like bombarding it), the rest of the GTA/PVN provided lots of subspace traffic). And the Shivans would be extremely angry (or the equivalent shivan reaction) that a primitive race like the terrans discovered a way to hurt their superdestroyers, and would immediately send reinforcements to wipe them out and prevent any other races from obtaining this knowledge. Altough the only ship capable of contacting the Shivan homeworld was destroyed, the Shivans would've expected the Lucifer to resupply, and they probably detected the explosion and deduced from the two that the Lucifer must've been destroyed.
Of course. Assuming the FS2 fleet wasn't the reinforcements, and the FS1 fleet was actually an attack rather than recon or scout fleet. Albeit we don't know how valuable the Lucifer was to the Shivans, given the relative antiquity (to FS2 Shivan tech and in size) of it's supporting fleet.
Scout fleet != countless fighters and bombers, several cruisers, at least three destroyers and a superdestroyer with an impervious shield system, two powerful beam cannons that can annihilate a destroyer in a few shots and planetary bombardment beams.
Scout fleet's mission != annihilate all life on both homeworlds and then exterminate both races
a) Why would they be interlinked??? Suppose the ancients closed down portal 45 (portal 1 being the one closest to their home, the one in G Drac)
Then the shivans circumvented it. Then the ancients closed down portal 30, then 22 etc. In the end they closed portal 1. When they open portal 1, do they also want portal 22, 30 and 45 to open, allowing the Shivans direct access to their space???
b) possible, if you are reffering to the second and third Knossos. But the portals were spinning, which suggests they were active. It's not that important wether the other portals were active or not, though I like to think they were simply because of the spinning.
I assume a standard shutdown is not like a sudden destruction of the portal. I've used a real life example before: The rotors of a helicopter keep rotating even after the engine has been shut down. If you turn the engine into reverse for a few seconds, It'll stop the rotors. You can also lock the roitors in place to prevent them from rotating. This is a bit far from subspace physics, but it's similar. I think the Knossos has the ability to LOCK nodes, preventing their natural restabilization. This is probably a retrofit, designed after the Shivans attacked.
a)Why not? The Ancients didn't build the Knossos gates to meet the Shivans, after all, so that tactical part of it wouldn't have been so much of an issue. Especially as the Ancients were somewhat arrogant. Perhaps it was advantageous for the Ancients to be able to suddenly close down a large portion of space. Perhaps the portals were designed to be able to wake other portals upon reactivation, and Bosch used this.
Actually, that's not such a bad idea now that I think of it... It would mean the sudden activation of all portals. That would get the Shivans attention. And it's possible that some Shivans were trapped in the nebula, but why didn't they try to activate Knossos 2?
Because there are several unknowns here; principally whether the other knossos' were active and, if not, how they were activated. An effective system reboot might have been part of the design, or perhaps the gates were intended to be always on and the network was simply 'password protected'.
Worth noting we don't know that portal '1', i.e. GD, is actually closest to the Ancients homeworld, though. quite possible there are more undiscovered portals lying about.
It probably was, and it was obviously the first one in this line of portal-connected systems. There might be others, maybe closer to Altair, but in a different direction
b)The portal being active doesn't mean that a) it always was or b)the node is unstable otherwise. As for the Knossos locking nodes; it's an idea I personally like, but it's possibly telling that it was never even mentioned as possible in the various briefs on the Knossos in GD. In terms of restabilisation, AFAIK the restabilising of the GD node was always attibuted to the use of the Knossos, not it's destruction.
a) But then who activated it? (Yes, the interlinked thing may be possible, but if not?) b) It does. Otherwise you wouldn't need a portal. Except if a subspace node becomes stable naturally, which is IMO too much of a coincidence (ant it happens twice)
Also, I the lockdown thing might not even be a lockdown: the Knossos simply destabilized the node quickly (in a matter of few seconds/minutes). Destroying the node would not have that effect.
End of part I. This post was actually too big :shaking:
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Part II
The Shivans don't know how many resources we have. The GTVA was not reluctant to deploy the vessel beforehand. IMHO they did it in the right time: the Shivans didn't expect that kind of resistance when the first Sathanas entered Capella. They probably knew the Sathanas was weaker than the Colossus (or they found out in Their Finest Hour).
Whoops, I meant the Sathanas was STRONGER than the Colossus, silly me :nervous:
The GTVA described the deployment of the Colossus as a last resort tactic in the briefs.
Shivans can't read our briefs
You can view the loss of the Sathanas as a defeat, but in the other hand, they loss less than 1/81th of their operational fleet, succeeded in inflicting heavy damage on a large number of GTVA vessels (blockades, etc)
They don't know how much that is relative to the entire fleet. When the GTVA destroys the Sathanas, they think that's the majority of their fleet (firepower-relative), because they have only one Colossus.
, drove deep into enemy territory (into Capella, IIRC),
They (the first Sath) got to Capella only to be destroyed near the node
discovered the GTVAs strongest weapon (and learnt of RBCs)
They don't know it's the strongest
, and the tactics likely to be used against a Sathanas class vessel.
what if the GTVA has, say, an Icanus-size vessel, but it couldn't make it there in time? That the only option was the Colossus at that time?
If you remove the loss of the juggernaut - which may or may not have been all that important to the Shivans, we can't tell - then it would have been a pretty good combat recon mission.
Relative technology and ship numbers, not to mention the likes of Bosch, data gathered (possibly) from the computers of the Iceni, and any received Great-War intel would surely give a good idea of the GTVA strength and resources.
If they can understand it. If they have Great War-era intel
I'm not going to argue about the retreating part though. I think the shivan comm nodes might have something to do with this, then again, that brings up other problems (why were they placed in only one system, right beside a jump point to hostile teritory if they were so important).
Frontline logistics? Comms relay stations?
The system they were in wasn't all that insecure, though. It was (seemingly) a staging post for a mass of ships, as the GTVA was retreating on all fronts. Let's not forget the SOC mission was an act of sheer and utter lunacy, after all.
It's possible that the nodes were very important to the Shivans (as the manifesto suggest), but why would they be so close to the node? (There, I'm arguing against the manifesto ;)) Well, your explanation makes sense. It's possible that the Shivans were moving them closer to the front because they needed them to be close to them (if they really are a source of lifeforce). In FS1, the Lucifer might've been the source of this lifeforce
They (the humans) didn't fire first in space. The Shivans attacked first.
I've read the ref bible tho, and it says the Shivans stop to investigate, then the human fires. Still, I'm pretty sure the Shivans would've attacked. Did they wait for humans to fire first when they attacked the very first Terran ship?
We don't actually know. AFAIK it's suggested the GTI actually had first contact in Silent Threat, but it's never made clear what the first incident was. All the debriefs mention is a series of incidents.
Yes, I know about that, but I'm 99% sure it was the shivans who attacked first.
I'm not saying that subspace damage should have anything to do with the ending. Freespace does have a tendency for phyrric victories, but I believe the ending for the entire story should've been a happy end. Everyone wants to see the humans finally winning, another phyrric victory would be too disappointing and would spoil the end for most gamers ("What, I completed the game to see Earth toasted?? This game sux"). Humanity surviving in the FS1/2 form is not an ending. It means that the Shivans will return. Something we do not want to happen.
Why would a phyrric ending necessarily involve Earth being destroyed?
You said yourself, e.g. only the Vasudans survive
Perhaps it would require earth being left isolated to protect it.
That's the ending of FS1, tell me something new
Perhaps Earth would emerge the only survivors.
Still leaves us with the problem of future conflict
Maybe the Shivans and/or Bosch would turn out to be the 'good guys' of a sort, and be annihilated.
They are, in some way, the good guys. And they cannot be completely annihilated. Those 80+ Saths may be only a fraction of their total power
Maybe humanity would defeat the Shivans, only to find they had been 'protecting' them from some far greater threat, etc.
The far greater threat being damage to subspace for example
IMO one of the key themes of FS has been sacrifice, after all. Sacrifice of Sol to save it from the Lucifer (unintentional as it may be), the sacrifice of the Colossus, etc.
Yes, but we are talking about an end of a series, the end. And a "happy end" doesn't mean that humanity doesn't need to make sacrifices.
If it's really just a piece of software, why couldn't he have one copy on the Trinity?
Because he didn't trust or want them to make first contact?
But then again, why send in the Trinity to be blown to pieces?
Because the Trinity didn't know his plan to contact the Shivans? Plenty of reasons.
Avoiding conflict right at the beginning might've given Bosch better chances to negotiate a peace treaty. It seems illogical to attack if you want peace. If you intrude into enemy territory with the intention to make peace, you should have a way to communicate
You're contradicting your own statements (Hallfight)
That's because I'm pointing out inconsistencies in theories deriven from fan-stories like the Shivan Manifesto, not what my own storyline would be (or is). I think you're also misunderstanding what I mean, too; that the Shivans can have an overreaching goal that doesn't really care about humanity, etc, but still also have an instinctual urge to attack non-Shivans.
It's easy to point out inconsistencies
Who said anything about taking all of the crew? And why wouldn't Bosch tell his crew "The Shivans are about to board the ship, please don't fire at them." or something?
Bosch was scuttling the ship - I don't think 2 transports are large enough for the crew of a corvette, myself, although I guess I could be wrong. If Bosch was going to abandon the ship and set the self-destruct without taking his entire crew with him, though, then I doubt that crew would be very co-operative. Perhaps they attacked the Shivans when Bosch set the self-destruct, to try and recover him and thus his access codes. It's also possible someone screwed up. Or that the Shivans came in firing- I wouldn't put it beyond them to lie, after all.
(Boschs' monologue mentions the crew leaving with him; this is unclear in itself to me - does he mean the loyal officers or the whole crew? Could you fit the xx thousand people on the Iceni onto Shivan transports? When did Bosch set the self destruct? Did the crew expect to leave - and if so, were they spread across several decks rather than mustered as it would seem?)
Maybe the transports are that big, or Bosch thought his crew would be taken to the cruiser(s) via the transports.
And I think his crew was all the most loyal people, hand-picked by him.
Whatever the Shivans did, they proceeded across several decks fighting with the crew. Why this happened would be somewhat unclear - to get key NTF personnel from the bowels of the ship? To kill everyone there who was a witness (why, when they could just destroy the ship)? To recover ETAK and Ancients technology?
The last one is possible
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Accidential post, sorry