Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on December 16, 2005, 02:32:30 am
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10488458/
Doesn't the US lecture other countries about doing the same thing?
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The price of freedom is apparently institutionalised subversion.....
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Bush did something unscrupulous, O RLY!
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Yeah, I saw he fessed up. That's the sign of a man with dropping approval ratings. The last, desperate gasp of a fascist regime.
It's going to take the dems at least four consecutive terms to clean up this mess.
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Perhaps you should look up the term 'fascist', or, better yet, go to a country ruled by such a regime, become a citizen, and then make a post like that about the government and see how many HOURS it takes before they lock you up in a dark hole, never to be heard from again. We don't have a 'regime' here, Bush was elected, twice!. Gore lost. Kerry lost. And you're still not over it? c'mon. We didn't scream nearly as much (At least I don't think we did) with Billy for 8 years...and I've heard some pretty bad stuff about him. (Selling F-15 factories to China at ten cents on the dollar to Communist China, Waco, accepting illegal campaign contributions, awarding government contracts to companies in exchange for votes (the flopped Lockheed Martin replacement for the Space Shuttle); lots of other stuff.) I'm not sure all were true, but some at least seemed credible. We really didn't like the guy, but we didn't think he was a fascist! Because if you live under a "fascist" "regime" (eg, go back to Italy during WWII), you don't survive very long making comments like the previous one. You go away, and everyone wonders what happened to you, but deep down they have the sickening knowledge that's you've either been interned in a hard labor camp or killed, or worse yet, tortured to death (Sadaam's human plastic shredder comes to mind).
Fascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, was the authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. Similar political movements, including Nazism, spread across Europe between World War I and World War II. Fascism generally attracted political support from big business, landowners, and patriotic, traditionalist, conservative, far-right, populist and reactionary individuals and groups. Classical fascism has also inspired contemporary neo-fascist organizations.
There is little agreement among historians, political scientists, and other scholars concerning the exact nature of fascism. Some scholars hold that fascism as a social movement employs elements from the political left, but it eventually allies with the political right, especially after attaining state power. A few argue that fascism is a form of socialism or left corporatism. See: Fascism and ideology.
There is also controversy surrounding the question of what political movements and governments belong to fascism. The most restrictive definitions of fascism include only one government - that of Benito Mussolini in Italy. The broadest definitions, on the other hand, may include every authoritarian state that has ever existed. Fascism is associated with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, and, after attaining political control of a country, a powerful, dictatorial state that views the nation as superior to the individuals or groups composing it. Fascism also typically calls for the regeneration of the nation and uses populist appeals to unity. Mussolini defined fascism as being a right-wing ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism. He said in The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism:
"Granted that the 19th century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the 20th century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right', a Fascist century. If the 19th century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the 'collective' century, and therefore the century of the State." [1]
The problem of defining fascism is complicated by the fact that the word fascist, used as an epithet, became an all-purpose insult after World War II, being widely applied to people on all sides of the political spectrum. In contemporary political discourse, adherents of some political ideologies tend to associate fascism with their enemies, or define it as the opposite of their own views."
From the Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist
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The point being: How do you know people aren't being disappeared?
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Seriously, there were people who didn't believe that the Nazis had concentration camps until they were shown that the factory outside of town was well... that wasn't just any old smoke... A big effort was made to make propiganda films about the 'relocation towns' to make people feel good about kicking out minorities from their cities. "Oh look, all of the Jewish scientists and artists are doing their stuff over at the new city that Hitler made for them!"
Information is easy to control.
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Yep.
WW2 only happened because the Germans thought they were winning WW1 when the government surrendered.
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The point being: How do you know people aren't being disappeared?
Now now, I'm sure they're only Muslims anyways, so who cares?
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It's going to take the dems at least four consecutive terms to clean up this mess.
And in those 4 consecutive terms they will **** everything else up. |Republicans|=|Democrats|=Rubish.
However, IIRC, they only monitor international email and phone calls. They are required to still obtain warrants for domestic communication. This is just to be specific and is not a defense of Bush.
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Now now, I'm sure they're only Muslims anyways, so who cares?
When they came for the Muslims.....
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Excellent poem that is.
[q]First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.[/q]
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Excellent poem that is.
[q]First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.[/q]
Aye. I remember quoting that at my Dad when he was waffling on about 'if you have nothing to hide you'll be fine' in an argument over Id cards.
EDIT; it occurs to me; the US has already disappeared several hundred/thousand foreign nationals to various prison camps, usually without charge or legal representation.
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This is an impeachable offense.
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That's the nice thing about conservatives. It's so easy to rile them up. The only people who defend themselves so vicously are those who are grasping at straws. The clock is ticking.
You're right, though. "Fascist" is not the right word.
"Inquisitor" is much more fitting.
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That's the nice thing about politicians. It's so easy to rile them up. The only people who defend themselves so vicously are those who are grasping at straws. The clock is ticking.
You're right, though. "Fascist" is not the right word.
"criminal" is much more fitting.
Corrected.
And you're just as bad.
Politics = teh suck.
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This is massive, I don't think everyone quite realizes the reprecussions for this if the opposite side pushes it in the right way; I read through several headlines, Bush is being pounded left and right, his Patriot Act renewal just got blocked by both Democrats and Republicans - I really hope that the end is near...
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This is an impeachable offense.
Nah, only if it was a Democrat doing it. :p
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And in those 4 consecutive terms they will **** everything else up. |Republicans|=|Democrats|=Rubish.
Does that mean that you're going to spend those 4 Democrat terms making post after post about how rubbish the Republicans are now that they aren't the ones in power then?
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You're all assuming he won't just blow something up or attack Iran.
IIRC - he can't be impeached during a time of war. And having a terrorist attack on Time Square on New Years Eve would 'adjust' his approval rating significantly.
And then there's the possibility of a simple coup.
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You're all assuming he won't just blow something up or attack Iran.
IIRC - he can't be impeached during a time of war. And having a terrorist attack on Time Square on New Years Eve would 'adjust' his approval rating significantly.
And then there's the possibility of a simple coup.
He's far more likely to sanction an invasion of Syria first, and then sweeping around to take out Iran in the firestorm that ensues. This of course would stem from a wave racism towards the muslim community after the terrorist incident you describe takes place, bolstering Bush's approval rating, and allowing him to pass an act in the senate stopping all elections during wartime. The nation would be paralyzed and inable to successfuly commit to a coup de tat, and an ensueing nuclear exchange when the US voilates Chinese territory to mine Trinium would further incapacitate any action the populous could take to stop the goverment. With the world in ruin, the stage is set for the inevitable alien invasion, and before you know it we'll all be slaves under President Kang!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4538286.stm
President George W Bush has admitted he authorised secret monitoring of communications within the United States in the wake of the 2001 terror attacks.
In his weekly address, he confirmed a report which appeared in the New York Times on Friday - and attacked it.
Because of the newspaper report, "our enemies have learned information they should not have", he said.
He said the programme was reviewed every 45 days, and insisted he had upheld the law in defending Americans.
:jaw:
It's mindboggling, really. I wonder if his enemies include the American people?
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It's mindboggling, really. I wonder if his enemies include the American people?
Only the ones who didn't vote for him.
I'm just waiting for him to declare a "national emergency" and cancel the election. All he has to do is invent a disaster.
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This is an impeachable offense.
Nah, only if it was a Democrat doing it. :p
Um... Nixon spied on his political foes and nearly got impeached. I'd say Bush spying on the American people is worse.
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I don't think it's gonna be pushed enough though :(
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I'm just waiting for him to declare a "national emergency" and cancel the election. All he has to do is invent a disaster.
You can't just cancel the election. Get with the program, man. If they didn't do it for two World Wars, they can't do it all.
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And in those 4 consecutive terms they will **** everything else up. |Republicans|=|Democrats|=Rubish.
Does that mean that you're going to spend those 4 Democrat terms making post after post about how rubbish the Republicans are now that they aren't the ones in power then?
Maybe, but the main point of that post was to say that people shouldn't place their faith in the democrats being any better than the republicans. The reason I criticize democrats, is for this very reason of people being dilusioned into thinking that they are going take office and in 16 years they will "fix" everything. And when there is a democrat and people get up there and expouse garbage like the Republican will save us, yes I will kindly rremind them not to trust either party. Frankly, for every crooked and bought Democrat, there are just as many crooked and bought republicans. So to answer your question again, I might do so.
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And in those 4 consecutive terms they will **** everything else up. |Republicans|=|Democrats|=Rubish.
Does that mean that you're going to spend those 4 Democrat terms making post after post about how rubbish the Republicans are now that they aren't the ones in power then?
Maybe, but the main point of that post was to say that people shouldn't place their faith in the democrats being any better than the republicans. The reason I criticize democrats, is for this very reason of people being dilusioned into thinking that they are going take office and in 16 years they will "fix" everything. And when there is a democrat and people get up there and expouse garbage like the Republican will save us, yes I will kindly rremind them not to trust either party. Frankly, for every crooked and bought Democrat, there are just as many crooked and bought republicans. So to answer your question again, I might do so.
Well, the current performance of the Republican administration surely should mandate some form of change, it's just a shame you have a 2 party system..........
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Setekh for President! :nervous:
I'd vote for him...
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I'm just waiting for him to declare a "national emergency" and cancel the election. All he has to do is invent a disaster.
You can't just cancel the election. Get with the program, man. If they didn't do it for two World Wars, they can't do it all.
They almost canceled the last presidential election. You not only need an emergency (real or otherwise), and someone power hungry enough in the office to pull a stunt like that. But it CAN be done.
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who says we have a 2 party system. I can go out next year and vote for the American Communist Party Canidate if I really wanted. It is just every one here doesn't want to do that. They are all convinced that their vote wouldn't count because of the electoral college system. But I contend that it is that sort of thinking that keeps people for voting for any of the third party canidates.
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who says we have a 2 party system. I can go out next year and vote for the American Communist Party Canidate if I really wanted. It is just every one here doesn't want to do that. They are all convinced that their vote wouldn't count because of the electoral college system. But I contend that it is that sort of thinking that keeps people for voting for any of the third party canidates.
That's exactly what a 2 party system is; only 2 parties are considered 'electable'. The UK is similar (Lib Dems have some role, 18% of the vote), with the exception of Scotland (which has a degree of proportional representation).
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The word system implies that it is ingrained or explicitly set up that way. Frankly, I hope the last eight years will encourage more conservative to vote for libertarians.
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The word system implies that it is ingrained or explicitly set up that way. Frankly, I hope the last eight years will encourage more conservative to vote for libertarians.
I would say it is certainly ingrained within the American psyche and indeed in countries like the UK with a similar situation. Partially as first past the post discourages voting for 3rd or 4th level parties in favour of ousting an unpopular incumbent.
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The word system implies that it is ingrained or explicitly set up that way. Frankly, I hope the last eight years will encourage more conservative to vote for libertarians.
I'll remember you said that during the next presidential election. :p
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The word system implies that it is ingrained or explicitly set up that way. Frankly, I hope the last eight years will encourage more conservative to vote for libertarians.
It certainly encouraged me. :)
Voted for Badnarik in 2004. Not that it helped much. :(
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You can't just cancel the election. Get with the program, man. If they didn't do it for two World Wars, they can't do it all.
Indeed, it is you who should get with the program. The world is vastly different from what it was 60 years ago, the US especially has changed dramatically. With today's prominent fear-culture, I don't see a problem in the next election being somehow 'postponed until further notice' due to some 'national emergency', whether it be a surprise invasion of Norway to locate CBWs, or an imminent threat of nuclear destruction from the Vatican! Remember, with Politics, expect the expected!
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Postponing an election is political suicide unless there's enemy troops landing on the beaches.
But that doesn't mean the Republicans wouldn't be stupid enough to do it anyway. And if they think their getting ousted for the next 12 years anyway, they'll probably think it's worth it just to get a few months to gouge the economy and sabotage the Democrats.
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And you're just as bad.
Politics = teh suck.
Do not play equivalence card here, son, because you played it a long time ago and it's still not a valid card.
I also love people who swoop in to politics threads only to announce their complete disinterest in politics. SO DEEP SO RADICAL. Shut up and don't **** on our discussions.
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http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm
I see communism is making a comeback as the Official Evil. Excellent.
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So, people who are on the "inside track," tell us; how bad is this for the Bush administration?
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http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm
I see communism is making a comeback as the Official Evil. Excellent.
Jesus. So they're actively suspicious of people having an interest in alternative political systems?
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http://www.alternet.org/story/23362/
http://shockandblog.com/blog/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=16
http://shockandblog.com/blog/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=18
Fun reading courtsey of Kami.
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http://www.alternet.org/story/23362/
http://shockandblog.com/blog/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=16
http://shockandblog.com/blog/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=18
Fun reading courtsey of Kami.
Sometimes I think they just add people to the "No Fly" list for the sake of doing it.
Before I came here I did have a concern that my name was on there (which would have seriously ****ed up everything that I had been planning for the last year) because my mother is a registered Democrat. :p
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It will be now, if you're in China. Hell, it'll be arm length rubber gloves next time you have to go through US immigration.........
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So, people who are on the "inside track," tell us; how bad is this for the Bush administration?
None, because Democrats are more fixed on CRIMINALS!!1, Republicans are actively toting the party line and trying to minimize this, and public doesn't care.
Hope I'm wrong though.
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It will be now, if you're in China. Hell, it'll be arm length rubber gloves next time you have to go through US immigration.........
Hence, one of the reasons I am reluctant to visit my parents. Plus I am not sure if I can get back here. It is a long way to swim. :p
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Yeah, I'm avoiding the US because I don't particularly want to be fisted by a security guard for not walking off the plane wrapped in an American flag singing Star Spangled Banner.
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Jeus ****ing Christ...
At one point during an interview about the surveillence, Condoleeza Rice claimed the the attorney general was the chief legal authority in the United States.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
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She probably just slipped up. I'm sure she meant to say Jesus Christ.
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...and remember kids Jesus likes video surveillence!
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10530417/
Now Bu$h says that leaking the spy program was shameful. Interesting set of morales this person has......
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Not that I care either way but, http://nytimes.com/2005/12/20/politics/20fbi.html?ei=5094&en=171df5b870cdd147&hp=&ex=1135141200&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print
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Not that I care either way but, http://nytimes.com/2005/12/20/politics/20fbi.html?ei=5094&en=171df5b870cdd147&hp=&ex=1135141200&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print
If you don't care then why did you go through the trouble of finding that article (or even looking at this thread)? :wtf:
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I was just browsing and it jumped out at me, so I would post it just as an fyi.
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Bahahahaha!
'Constitutional authority' - that's awesome.
It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this important program in a time of war.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the United States isn't technically at war with anyone. So I doubt leaking the information could be any kind of crime anyway - especially not since it was all illegal in the first place.
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Well, that depends on how accurate this article (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/11/prisoner.status/index.html) is.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the United States isn't technically at war with anyone.
Bush seems to believe that words mean whatever he wants them to mean, whenever he wants them to mean it. So when he's desperately trying to claim that Iraq won't become another Vietnam the war is over. When the prisoners of gitmo demand basic Geneva convention rights, they aren't prisoners of war because there is no war being fought. But when stuff is coming out that makes Bush look bad then America is at war, and such a big war that no dissent can be permitted!
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I think President should be able to declare war and then keep any information of this war secret because it's a war.
That would work out so well. Let's just imagine..
President: "Now we're at war!"
Public: "Why?"
Pres: "Sorry dudes it's a secret."
Public: "Why?"
Pres: "Because we're at WAR!"
Then we could build Terminator armours and burn the heretics at stakes.
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How do you know that hasn't already happened Janos? This whole Iraq thng could be a cover story.
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How do you know that hasn't already happened Janos? This whole Iraq thng could be a cover story.
It has happened a smaller scale.
Iraq war was just based on lies, and now that they are being called on it they just say "well oops we were wrong but he didn't prove that he had no WMDs so we invaded heh sry guys".
This stuff is on different things, like the entire NSA spying stuff (which doesn't interest me as much as Iraq war, but at least Iraq war was seemingly just really, really stupid and retarded, not an embodiment of malevolent, pure evil).
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I meant the entire Iraq war being a cover story conconcoted between Bush and Saddam to cover a war somewhere else :p
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I meant the entire Iraq war being a cover story conconcoted between Bush and Saddam to cover a war somewhere else :p
hehehehehe
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Bush is fighting the martians! Didn't you see War of the Worlds?
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Okay, so activist groups were put under surveillance, wiretaps were put in place with warrants, politicians lied to further their own agendas. This should come as a surprise to no one.
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Okay, so activist groups were put under surveillance, wiretaps were put in place with warrants, politicians lied to further their own agendas. This should come as a surprise to no one.
Does it make it right or just?
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I don't believe Iraq is a real country. Its history sounds concocted, and it sort of sounds like someone just came up with the name by changing one letter in "Iran".
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Like, that "China doesn't exist" thing ?
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Does it make it right or just?
I don't think it's a moral issue, just a statement of fact.
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So what's the progress on this, by the way?
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So what's the progress on this, by the way?
Trust me, in a month, all of this will have been thorougly forgotten. Swept under the rug, if you will.
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So what's the progress on this, by the way?
Trust me, in a month, all of this will have been thorougly forgotten. Swept under the rug, if you will.
But if he was a democrat, he'd be in jail by now. :p
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That's because it has taken this long for Democrats to realize the true nature of their opponents. The diehard Bush-followers are an interesting lot as they only understand power. To a group used to resolving issues through debate, this is a hard concept to wrap the mind around.
Those who voted Bush into power are to be pitied from a great distance. They cannot help their own ignorance. You'd have to be suffering from serious brain damage to buy any of his b.s. So yes, pity them, but don't ever turn your back on them. Fanatics are deadly, no matter what flag they happen to be following.
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Those who voted Bush into power are to be pitied from a great distance.
What? All 8 of them?
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hehehehe
Thing is, Bush officially declared the Iraq War as over quite some time ago, so saying he is still at war is.....a blatant lie.
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Shh...nobody'll notice.
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Shh...nobody'll notice.
reported for terrism
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First off, there are billions of phone converstations nation wide every day. It would be impossible to have any sort of reasonable ammount of people sift through them: "oooohh.. mr jones isnt born again.. increase his taxes!"
The only people they would consider usign algorithms to scan phone converstations are those that they have great suspision of collaberating with terrorists. And getting a warrent from some judge with a wacko agenda would blow the operation. Just because the president is republican doesnt mean that every person who works for the government are his yesmen. Im sure if terrorist attacks happened because the president DIDNT follow through with this information would cause an uproar of why he didnt. Bueracracy is not your friend.
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The only people they would consider usign algorithms to scan phone converstations are those that they have great suspision of collaberating with terrorists.
Watergate?
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First off, there are billions of phone converstations nation wide every day. It would be impossible to have any sort of reasonable ammount of people sift through them: "oooohh.. mr jones isnt born again.. increase his taxes!"
The only people they would consider usign algorithms to scan phone converstations are those that they have great suspision of collaberating with terrorists. And getting a warrent from some judge with a wacko agenda would blow the operation. Just because the president is republican doesnt mean that every person who works for the government are his yesmen. Im sure if terrorist attacks happened because the president DIDNT follow through with this information would cause an uproar of why he didnt. Bueracracy is not your friend.
Ever heard of Echelon? They'll use a cluster of supercomputers to do voice recognition + keyword filtering (possibly selecting some subset of calls based on previous intelligence, participation at protest meetings, library records or from random sweeps - if they can't process all of them). Granted, even military (because these things could well be significantly better than commercial/public technology) voice recognition wouldn't be perfect, but it's likely they'd use a combinatorial approach of recognising xx 'trigger' words together (like 'Allah', 'nuclear', etc in close temporal proximity) to highlight the call for manual analysis. Perhaps using a neural net approach; they're very good for speech (i.e. pattern) recognition, IIRC, and you could have a huge training set just from the CIA/FBI/NSA/etcs old transcripted wiretaps.
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First off, there are billions of phone converstations nation wide every day. It would be impossible to have any sort of reasonable ammount of people sift through them: "oooohh.. mr jones isnt born again.. increase his taxes!"
The only people they would consider usign algorithms to scan phone converstations are those that they have great suspision of collaberating with terrorists. And getting a warrent from some judge with a wacko agenda would blow the operation. Just because the president is republican doesnt mean that every person who works for the government are his yesmen. Im sure if terrorist attacks happened because the president DIDNT follow through with this information would cause an uproar of why he didnt. Bueracracy is not your friend.
Just wait until your pet wolf turns around and bites you. I seriously doubt you would call it domesticated after that.
But here is something I do not think you thought of. The NSA is not allowed to spy on american citizens by law. But they did it. The president acted illegally by ordering them to do it.
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The president acted illegally by ordering them to do it.
And by holding a press conference and confusing everyone by making murky statements and downright contradictions, he's not going to get into a s--t for his actions. Great system you've got going there...
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Well, it seems Bush's "Patriot Act" got 5 week extra time... :(
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God dont u love it when they can read your emails and telephone calls and all that. Oh yeah im gona ****ing kill the president! hope they read that too. Dumbasses. How can they do this? Spying on regular ****ing people, thats smart. What the ****, Who the **** do they think they are? Read teh mother****ign constitution assholes (addressed to the gov) and keep it. Dam you guys suck.
And someone refresh me. There is a part ther that sasy its our duty that if they gov ****s us over, as they are doign today, that we have the right to take up our guns and take their ****ing asses down from gov and replace them with true officials\reps of the people. Yeah thats right..
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God dont u love it when they can read your emails and telephone calls and all that. Oh yeah im gona ****ing kill the president! hope they read that too. Dumbasses. How can they do this? Spying on regular ****ing people, thats smart. What the ****, Who the **** do they think they are? Read teh mother****ign constitution assholes (addressed to the gov) and keep it. Dam you guys suck.
And someone refresh me. There is a part ther that sasy its our duty that if they gov ****s us over, as they are doign today, that we have the right to take up our guns and take their ****ing asses down from gov and replace them with true officials\reps of the people. Yeah thats right..
:rolleyes:
Somewhere, in the CIA, a computer has just exploded.
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One less to jack.. :grin: