Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on September 24, 2001, 04:35:00 pm
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Have any of you people in the West and Europe heard anything about what's been happening in Israel recently? I've heard that you're being kept in the dark, so I wanted to find out firsthand if that was true.
The US has been pressuring Ariel Sharon to allow our Foreign Minister, Peres, to meet with Yasser Arafat. Sharon said that he's willing to allow such a meeting on the condition that there be 48 hours without terrorist attacks. Arafat has said twice that he's declared a cease fire since then.
But since that announcement, two wives have been shot dead since Thursday while driving with their families on the roads. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
Is this a cease-fire? Is there any reason for Israel to negotiate with Arafat? Is there any reason for the US to negotiate with Bin-Laden? Is the terrorisim here any different then the terrorisim in the rest of the world?! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
Have any of you heard anything about this stuff?
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar (//"http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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yes, in france they've talked about it.
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no
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The problem with that kind of proclamation is that could very well have been some teen who got dumped by his gf or something, and decided to shoot an isreali 'oppressor'. Look at Ireland.... as soon as the main party gets a sort of peace, a radical fringe takes up the banner. The way I see it, (and I'm sorry if it offends you) if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere. You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.
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Yeah, we heard about it too. Although it's clear that some Palestinian groups don't want peace with Israel, there's nothing to say that this is the opinion of all of them. After all, it was Arafat that decalred the unlateral ceasefire first last week, I believe.
If you accuse all Palestinians of being supportive of this terrorism you risk falling into the trap of accusing all Afghans, or all Muslims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Clearly this is absurd, and I see no reason why the situation you're referring to is any different.
True enough that Arafat has to be expected to come down hard on terrorism from within 'his' ranks, but it's been clear for some time that some do not support his views and will not recognise him as their leader. Better to treat them as a seperate faction, but in dealing with them the IDF is sure to incur the wrath of other Palestinians. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Sigh...still, maybe America can wade in and sort this one out as part of its assault on terrorism.
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Actually, Arafat is technically powerless, and I DO believe he wants to negotiate somewhat. The problem is that he has no way to enforce anything, and he is only "in power" by the will of the Palestinian extremists (the non-extremist majority gets little/no say and appears to be a dying race). He says whatever he thinks will keep him moderately popular on the home front without provoking a war. I don't think anyone else could do his job quite so well, and in any case if he wasn't there to serve as a semi-compromiser, then both sides would lon ago begun REALLY having at each other- which would result in the rapid extermination of the Palestinians followed immediately by most of the Middle East jumping on Israel and pounding it to smoking bits- He may be an insignificance, but he's the pinhead a quarter of the world balances on, and you have to respect whoever holds that job.
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first credible report of media bias and underreporting
no i didn't hear... grr that angers me
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Hardly the first... maybe the first one you believed for this particular instance... but far, far from the first.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
The problem with that kind of proclamation is that could very well have been some teen who got dumped by his gf or something, and decided to shoot an isreali 'oppressor'. Look at Ireland.... as soon as the main party gets a sort of peace, a radical fringe takes up the banner. The way I see it, (and I'm sorry if it offends you) if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere. You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.
I agree with what you're saying 100% - it doesn't offend me in the least. But look at the other side of the coin: Arafat (in the world's hearing) calls for a cease-fire. He may or may not have called for a cease-fire in Arabic, which is what really counts.
If he has, then it means that he's no longer in control of his people, and something needs to be done to either bring those wild factions under control, or to remove them from the picture.
If he hasn't called for a cease-fire in Arabic, then he's just sucking up to what the world wants to hear. And yes, it's happend before.
One other thing that ticks me off is the casualties reports concerning the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. This is of course a generalization, but it is true in the majority of cases: the Palestinians that have been killed were either participating in violent protests or actually contibuting to live-fire gun battles. The Israelis that have been killed have been driving to/from work, eating at a pizza parlor, sitting in their living room, riding the bus. See what I'm getting at?
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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The only thing we're going to discuss with bin laden is how he wants to be executed. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Joey_21:
The only thing we're going to discuss with bin laden is how he wants to be executed. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
And no one in their right mind in the States would have any dispute over that statement. But if the same was said about Arafat... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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If he has, then it means that he's no longer in control of his people, and something needs to be done to either bring those wild factions under control, or to remove them from the picture.
Nobody is ever completely incontrol of his or her 'people'. Sure President Bush comands the United States, but does that stop people from murdering each other or making racist attacks against minority groups who had nothing to do with the WTC destruction?
Is Mr. Sharon in control of every single Israeli in Israel? No. Thats not something that should be expected of any leader to that extent.
Unfortunately sandwich, the media here in Canada and the United States is definately focused on what has happened here at home and little else has been in the spotlight. And its not just one issue being ignored, everything else not related to the September 11th attack is pretty much ignored...and can you blame the public and the media for that? Probably not.
The situation in Israel is one that has been going on for decades if not centuries and its not one that can just be solved by the snap of the fingers or the word of a leader.
I really hope that the final outcome of all of this (all of these varying conflicts) is a better world in which everyone can live in. Regardless of the faith and regardless of the belief. I'm an optomist so forgive me for having some hope...but then again...isn't that all we have?
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Cynicism and the knowledge that I'm right do it for me.
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No, I cannot blame the media for focusing on the matters pertaining to the September 11th attacks. Not at all. But this is the reason I brought this up: this lack of reporting the full facts about the situation over here is a constant in the media. It happens consistently, not just when there are more "interesting" or "important" stories to be told.
But also, do you realize what that new line in my siggy truly means? That these terror attacks which have galvanized a good portion of the world into counter-terrorisim actions, are par for the course in Israel, albeit on a lesser scale? We have to go through this s**t of worrying about loved ones, having bags checked not only at the entrances to malls but when entering coffee bars and restaurants, reporting every single suspicious object to the police, living in a state of siege constantly.
We understand how you feel, America - we truly do. But now do you understand how we live?!
Originally posted by IceFire:
Is Mr. Sharon in control of every single Israeli in Israel? No. Thats not something that should be expected of any leader to that extent.
If Israelis took matters into their own hands, you can bet that the Israeli Govt would intervene. It has happened in the recent past.
Originally posted by IceFire:
Nobody is ever completely incontrol of his or her 'people'. Sure President Bush comands the United States, but does that stop people from murdering each other or making racist attacks against minority groups who had nothing to do with the WTC destruction?
If there were daily attacks - often fatal -on Canadians, both in Canada and those travelling to the US, by Americans, you'd better bet your booties that Bush'd show exactly how much "control" he has over those rouge factions!
Israelis still kill each other, both accidentally on the roads and on purpose in fights. So do Americans. So do Canadians. But if there were mortars fired from American soil that were exploding on Toronto, wouldn't you expect and demand that the US Govt. take action to reign in those responsible? Or even worse, if it was the US president who ordered the attacks, and who then ordered a cease-fire in order to hold negotiations, but Canadians kept getting killed... all I ask is:
What would you do?
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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I feel for you, sandwich...I hope that Bush remains true to his word and works to fight terrorism everywhere- including Israel. It's been a problem there for a long time, and we COULD have tried to do something about it...but for various reasons, many political, we didn't. I hope we help however we can now.
I hadn't heard the particular story you were mentioning at the beginning of the thread, but I WAS aware of the fact that the Israelis were getting reported as if they were being the bullies in the various skirmishes, and knew it to be false...a lot of people do!
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Originally posted by sandwich:
But also, do you realize what that new line in my siggy truly means? That these terror attacks which have galvanized a good portion of the world into counter-terrorisim actions, are par for the course in Israel, albeit on a lesser scale? We have to go through this s**t of worrying about loved ones, having bags checked not only at the entrances to malls but when entering coffee bars and restaurants, reporting every single suspicious object to the police, living in a state of siege constantly.
I have problems with this though. One cannot easily compare constant low level 'indigenous' terrorism with massive attacks like the 9-11 one. As I stated above, many of the former could simply be caused by spur-of-the-moment feelings of anger, etc. Have a bad day? Throw a rock at an Isreali. You don't have a bad day and convince three other friends to each fly airliners into building. Again, come back to Ireland, the violence is continuing because both sides cannot really seem live with each other. Familiarity breeding contempt and all that.
What you can compare it to have been the wars involving Isreal, where external forces have attacked (and ended up with the **** knocked out by) Isreal.
[This message has been edited by Shrike (edited 09-24-2001).]
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some people are just plain evil and will just keep doing evil things no matter what happens. Arafat will not give up until there is not one Isreali left alife on earth, and bin Laden will not give up until there is not one capatalist -american or not- left on earth. and after that they will find something new to do that won't be any better.
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Wrong Carl...they won't have to find a new target, because they will both fail.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
I have problems with this though. One cannot easily compare constant low level 'indigenous' terrorism with massive attacks like the 9-11 one.
It was a statement like that that got the French Ambassador(I think..., maybe it was the Foreign Minister) politically blasted.
The scale of the terrorist attack on the 11th is too large for the mind to grasp, most definetly. It was a well-thought out, premeditated attack on the United States.
But people don't just decide to become suicide bombers because they had a bad day. The Palestinian Authority is indoctrinating the children with terrorist propaganda. They are encouraged to blow themselves up to kill Jews, etc. If you want links about this, let me know - there's no lack.
The other difference is that when Israel strikes back at terrorists, we get blasted by the world as being overbearing and using our powerful army to kill gun-weilding "freedom fighters". But when the US moves half of it's army, navy and air force into the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf in response to the attack upon her, not only does the world agree - they want to join! Good for them, but why the double-standard?
And then this anti-terrorisim coalition invites countries like Iran and Syria to join!? And Israel, which was invited to participate, is all of a sudden kicked out? Does something in this seem a bit screwy to you?
With all due respect, Shrike - don't give me this "low-level indigenous terrorisim" crap. Tell that to the blind and deaf - or to the dead.
Terrorisim is terrorisim. Period.
EDIT: I know I came across quite strong on this. I meant to. But if I in some way offended anyone, forgive me - that is most definetly not my intention.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 09-25-2001).]
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The press in Sweden have reported about the cease fire.
Sandvich can you bring some light about why Israeli forces invaded Jenin and Jerico. I also read that they have been bombing Gaza, Ramallah, Beit Sahour and Beit Jala. Is this true?
Pez
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The other difference is that when Israel strikes back at terrorists, we get blasted by the world as being overbearing and using our powerful army to kill gun-weilding "freedom fighters". But when the US moves half of it's army, navy and air force into the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf in response to the attack upon her, not only does the world agree - they want to join! Good for them, but why the double-standard?
Lets be honest, most people live a double standard every day of their lives. Thats nothing new. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
I definately understand (in one sense of the world although probably not in others - im not in your situation) what your point is and what you are getting at.
I've done a significant amount of research into Terrorism in the Middle East in general. It was a independant study project that I ended up spending almost 40 minutes in class presenting when it was done. Its a difficult situation, its hard to deal with continual threats of violence and while you can't compare the daily minor attacks compaired to the massive singular attack on September 11th, the overall picture is that people are dying and be it 50 people in a crowded marketplace in Israel somewhere or 6,000 people in New York City, it simply isn't tolerable.
The main problem is that there is no good answer or solution to any of these problems. There are legitimate reasons for disagreement in Israel and there are legitimate greivances against the United States, but none of it justifies what is happening.
And yet it does and we again, have to hope that someone does something right.
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Originally posted by Joey_21:
The only thing we're going to discuss with bin laden is how he wants to be executed. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
If you kill him you make him a martyr... better to lock him up and leave him to rot... and opur (UK) foreign secretary hasn;t done much to help Israeli-Uk relations recently.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
With all due respect, Shrike - don't give me this "low-level indigenous terrorisim" crap. Tell that to the blind and deaf - or to the dead.
Terrorisim is terrorisim. Period.
And this is the problem Isreal has. When it comes to matters like this, they refuse to acknowledge that anyone else has a valid opinion, and as soon as someone says something they find even the tiniest bit disagreeable, they lash out. Apparently some reasonably important guy (Shaw?) who's visiting Isreal has just had his visit with Sharon cancelled because a article he wrote said that some of the middle eastern problems are due to 'grievances'. Can you, in all fairness, say that the Palestinians have no grievances at all, not even legitimate ones?
As for terrorism is terrorism, that's only true so far in that terror is used as tool. The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon are against strategic targets, in order to create maximum visibility for whatever their cause is. It is a political and symbolic target, and the simple fact that thousands of people died is a bonus. The Pentagon, considering that they dropped an entire airliner on it, had a low casualty rate... no more than a couple hundred. That was definately a symbolic target, they could just have easily crashed that plane into the Empire State building or any other highrise and killed more people. But they didn't.
The terror attacks in Isreal and Ireland (as there are similarities there) are different in scope. Not that they're 'better' in any nebulous way, in fact I think it's much worse as it's unremitting, but they aren't meant to act as a symbol to the world as a whole. It's much more personal.
You cannot simply say 'it's terrorism' and leave it at that. Nothing in this world is that black and white. You have to look at the people who do it, and the reasons they do it, and their targets.
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The US seems to have a tough decision...including Israel in the coalition would lose the support of a lot of arabs. Sad but true.
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Yes, this is a real hot button topic... unfortunately, it's something we have to live with in this day and age.
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So, things are different when it comes to America, eh? Tell me, how many people must die before it's considered wrong?
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If high-ups in the Palestinian Authority are indoctrinating essentially innocent young people into committing acts of terror, then indict them as war criminals and ship them off to den Haag. That's what the ICC is there for - but then, if you can prove that you have to face the fact that Mr. Sharon might end up taking a trip over there to defend himself. What was it, 20 years ago just recently that the massacres happened?
Of course sandwich, I can see your point that if we have proof of Bin Laden's actions and support plain old assassination, but come down like a ton of bricks on the 'targeted elimination' of Palestinian terrorists (or whatever it's called - that's not a bitter comment, I just can't remember (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) ) there's a clear double standard.
In this case I find it difficult to suggest a 'right' way. The US never signed up to the ICC (or ICHRA) anyway, but legally and morally it should really try Bin Laden as a terrorist, not a war criminal. A war is actually defined as a conflict between two nations. As a case in point, was Timothy McVeigh tried as a terrorist in US courts, or as a war criminal a la Nuremburg or in front of a military court?
Still, I suspect politically Bush cannot afford to do that - dead people can't defend themselves in court, after all. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Styxx:
So, things are different when it comes to America, eh? Tell me, how many people must die before it's considered wrong?
Who said it wasn't wrong? I am simply saying that I think saying the problems that Isreal and the US face when it comes to terrorism are the same doesn't take into account the backgrounds and reasons for those acts, and that they cannot simply be grouped together under the broad heading of 'terrorism'.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere. You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head Shrike. Both sides (unionists and nationalists) in this country want it totally their way, half measures are just not good enough so the 'war' has been dragging on for years. If there is no common ground to be reached then nobody wins.
...and as always stuck slap bang in the middle are the people who just want them all to quit fighting and just get on with life. Sitting on the fence can be pretty precarious though.
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The problem with people is that they're only human (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
I've been griping for years about the incomplete and biased reporting on Isreali situations (and Ireland for that matter...) All the media ever reports is how many people were killed in a specific instance, and we almost never hear about the terrorist attack that instigated the operation to begin with. The moment of my greatest disgust was during a violent battle in Gaza, while the reporter was busy telling us about how many Palestinians had been killed during the demonstration I saw a small child intentionally lifted above the barricades by an older man. I've never seen camera angles get switched so quickly... The whole scene left me with a pit in my stomach when I realized that the child would likely be simply reported as being killed during the battle without a single word given as to how.
On a similar note, did you know that when the "Million Moms March" (an anti-gun lobby within the US) generated thier statistical data on how many children were killed annually by guns in the US they included all persons 18 years old and younger, and they also included those killed by police? It's very easy to manipulate statistical data to have it tell whatever viewpoint you want it to.
[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-25-2001).]
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pfff, aren't you all fed up talking about that here, at HLP? bah, last time I check this thread. Have fun.
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Thanks for brining thi point up again, Maeg - I wanted to comment on it but forgot... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/redface.gif)
Originally posted by Shrike:
...if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere. You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.
Before Sharon became Prime Minister, we had Barak. For people like me, at the time he was a disaster for Israel. He kept on offerring more and more land to the PA, and we were wondering if it was just a matter of time before he started to offer Tel-Aviv as well. :-/
But, thank God, Arafat had Pharoh's heart - hardened. He refused every offer that came his way, saying that it wasn't enough. IIRC he was offered something like 95% of Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the "territories") towards the end, but he still refused. Is that what you would call Israel demanding too much?
In hindsight, I can see now that it was good that Barak was willing to part with so much land. I, and hopefully the world, can now see that Arafat's desire was not the much-professed land. If he had truly desired the land for the Palestinians, he would have gobbled up what was offered to him.
But he didn't. And all the time he made appearences at various rallys (in Arabic) in the PA areas, where he would lead the Palestinians in chants of: "Jihad, jihad jihad!" and the like.
Now about the differences in the terrorisim targets in the US and Israel, it is true - the targets in the States were "political", as opposed to the ones in Israel being simple "kill 'em all" targets.
Shrike: before the September 11th attacks, would you have defined what was going on in Israel as "terrorisim"? I'll assume that your answer would be "yes". So if so, why the change now? It's not the lower end of the definition of terrorisim that has changed, but the upper one. What we have here in Israel is terrorisim. What happened in the States is terrorisim, but on a scale that had never been seen before. But they are both still terrorisim.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Sandwich is right- terrorism is terrorism. I don't care WHAT the motives are. I don't see any way to justify terrorism or try to shuffle it into a tamer category.
Terrorism is something that the US has not devoted nearly enough time to historally- it's been pretty much on the "Someone Else's Problem" list. It took 9/11 to finally convince people that that isn't the case...I just hope we follow through with what Bush claims and expend every effort to wipe terrorism away, whether it be Bin Laden's or Palestinian or Eskimo. If anyone can stamp terrorism out, it's the United States of America.
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*sigh* Gotta take the devil's advocate post AGAIN???
The fact is, yes, terrorism is extremely ugly and in general a nasty thing to do, but in the case of the Palestinians and Afghans, it is their only weapon. They lack the equipment to wage a full-scale (and for some reason better?) war, so they turn to suicide bombings and terror tactics. Don't forget that both Israel and the US have accomplished essentially the same acts, only using cruise missiles and rockets, and that in the end we have acted no better. We have our civilian kills, too, and until people start realizing that the method of killing or the motivations of either side make no real difference, we will live in a world of terrorism and hard rain.
Note that the Northern Irish mobs are not included in this- throwing bombs at a specific group of women and children as "protest" against another terrorist group who has little or nothing to do with the children is even worse, if it's possible to act worse.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
...hard rain...
Don't you mean Hard Light? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
I think I'll let someone else answer for once. Don't force me into explaining why there is a world of difference between the US/Israel and terrorisim... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Pez:
Sandvich can you bring some light about why Israeli forces invaded Jenin and Jerico. I also read that they have been bombing Gaza, Ramallah, Beit Sahour and Beit Jala. Is this true?
I have heard absolutely nothing to this effect occurring in the recent past; where did you read this? Maybe you're referring to a not-so-recent strike?
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
I have heard absolutely nothing to this effect occurring in the recent past; where did you read this? Maybe you're referring to a not-so-recent strike?
I'm refering to what Edward W Said wrote in this article: http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/kultur/story/0,2789,90373,00.html ("http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/kultur/story/0,2789,90373,00.html") (swedish newspaper)
He wrote: "Since Septhember the 11th israeli military forces have invaded Jenin and Jerico and by repeated ocasions bombed Gaza, Ramallah, Beit Sahour och Beit Jala, which has lead to a large number of dead and injured civilians and enormous material damages"
I don't know if he's refering to something that happend two weeks ago or if it goes way past back. I just wonder if you knew anything about that.
Pez
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Shrike: before the September 11th attacks, would you have defined what was going on in Israel as "terrorisim"? I'll assume that your answer would be "yes". So if so, why the change now? It's not the lower end of the definition of terrorisim that has changed, but the upper one. What we have here in Israel is terrorisim. What happened in the States is terrorisim, but on a scale that had never been seen before. But they are both still terrorisim.
Why are you assuming that I consider what's going on in Isreal as anything other than terrorism, now or then? You're twisting what I've been saying. Calling something terrorism is so broad, you must get more specific. Can you compare the war in 'Nam with the Gulf War? Only on the surface, you have to go deeper than that.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
...Calling something terrorism is so broad, you must get more specific.
As the world has seen recently, terrorism is very broad. On one end you have the occasional Molotov cocktail thrown at a military emplacement and causing no damage. On the other extreme you have the WTC attacks. Both are terrorism, but they have extremely different results.
So, now that we both agree that terrorism is broad, what were we disagreeing about? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/confused.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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However... an importatn part of solving the entire Palestinian-Israel problem will be dismantling the Jewish settlements.
I know you wont like that idea Sandwich, but rest assured it will have to happen if Isreal and Palestine want to have any chance for a lasting peace.
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
However... an importatn part of solving the entire Palestinian-Israel problem will be dismantling the Jewish settlements.
I know you wont like that idea Sandwich, but rest assured it will have to happen if Isreal and Palestine want to have any chance for a lasting peace.
You're right, as far as that goes. But personally, I heavily doubt that anything short of pushing us back into the sea will appease the Islamic world. :-/
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
As the world has seen recently, terrorism is very broad. On one end you have the occasional Molotov cocktail thrown at a military emplacement and causing no damage. On the other extreme you have the WTC attacks. Both are terrorism, but they have extremely different results.
So, now that we both agree that terrorism is broad, what were we disagreeing about? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/confused.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Good question. We started off in agreement, then disagreed, then agreed again. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
I heavily doubt that anything short of pushing us back into the sea will appease the Islamic world. :-/
I fear you're right.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
You're right, as far as that goes. But personally, I heavily doubt that anything short of pushing us back into the sea will appease the Islamic world. :-/
and the Islamic world will have to accept that this is not going to happen.
in fact, what i aid earlier was part of a statement by someone. There were two other parts to it:
-giving up the settlements
-finding a solution for those (the Palestinians) that want to go home (back into Israel)
-and finding a way to make Jerusalem the capital of both Israel and Palestine
well... I can only say one thing about that: it will take a long time to get that done.
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You'd think that with 1000+ years to think things over both sides would have come to some bitter conclusions about co-existing and compromise, but every year both Israelis and Palestinians seem to get more uncompromising (not meant by way of offence, sandwich).
I think we can all agree that Israel has a right to be there as the Jewish homeland that was lacking for so long. Few people would begrudge the defence of borders that the West imposed anyway. I think the key thing is the whole settlement issue, to be honest.
Removing them may be a solution to the problem, for the moment (until all the hate-rhetoric fades into the past), but if the Arab world wants Israel erased they will have to cope with the fact that this will not happen.
Oh, and personally, I think that Jerusalem should be an international city, like Vatican City. By removing it from the control of both sides equally, at least for the moment (see Berlin, 1945-1990), even if that means U.N protectorate you might remove a lot of the extremism. Well, you know, I'm an optimist, I live in hope. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
--Kellan
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
However... an importatn part of solving the entire Palestinian-Israel problem will be dismantling the Jewish settlements.
B]
Are you NUTS?!?
If you've ever seen a releif map of the area you've got to realise that if Isreal loses the Gaza strip on Sunday, then they'll be overrun by Monday!
The area called the Gaza strip includes a long, elevated ridgeline that overlooks the narrowest portion of Isreal. With Artillery and AA batteries on that ridgeline they could easily cut the country in half.
It's also a prime spot to launch an invasion from (as was done during the so-called 7-day war) because of it's elevated postion. If the prime minister has any sense at all there's NO WAY he's going to relinquish that area...
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
Are you NUTS?!?
If you've ever seen a releif map of the area you've got to realise that if Isreal loses the Gaza strip on Sunday, then they'll be overrun by Monday!
The area called the Gaza strip includes a long, elevated ridgeline that overlooks the narrowest portion of Isreal. With Artillery and AA batteries on that ridgeline they could easily cut the country in half.
It's also a prime spot to launch an invasion from (as was done during the so-called 7-day war) because of it's elevated postion. If the prime minister has any sense at all there's NO WAY he's going to relinquish that area...
no, i'm being a realist.
Millions of people are pressed in a small area while the settlers live on large (in comparison) plots of land in that same area.
If you want peace, the settlements will have to go... or some nutter will someday remove them with force
And to Kellan: The Vatican is NOT an international city, it is an independant country of its own (the last remant of what were once the Papal States. Disbanded in 1891 -I think- and reinstated by Mussolini in 1929 -again i'm not sure)
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Seeing how nobody answered your request, sandvich...
But anyway. Certainly, there are some extremists who will not rest until the West is dead, and there is a roughly equal proportion here who wishes to make a Middle East-sized crater in the planet, but such is humanity- the intolerant slimeball bigots are always the most vocal, though they hardly make up a percentage in the population. Let's be fair here, and maybe we WON'T have everybody hate us- and let's find a good solution with the rest before this outspoken minority becomes an acting majority, and we all end up... well... dead.
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
and the Islamic world will have to accept that this is not going to happen.
in fact, what i aid earlier was part of a statement by someone. There were two other parts to it:
-giving up the settlements
-finding a solution for those (the Palestinians) that want to go home (back into Israel)
-and finding a way to make Jerusalem the capital of both Israel and Palestine
well... I can only say one thing about that: it will take a long time to get that done.
Playing Devil's Advocate...
Maybe they need a Berlin Wall.
Joe.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Note that the Northern Irish mobs are not included in this- throwing bombs at a specific group of women and children as "protest" against another terrorist group who has little or nothing to do with the children is even worse, if it's possible to act worse.
I'm usually pretty eloquent when posting but I'm going to make an exception (hopefully) just this once and say this **** is pretty ****** up!! These people don't throw bombs at kids in protestation of a paramilitary enemy, they're protecting their (god given apparantley) right to sell drugs, ripped off software and stolen goods. They don't truely give the slightest damn if the IRA gives up it's cause, they need the strife in order to get richer.
Someone once told me that we should drop all of the loyalists on one side of a small island, drop the nationalists on the other, give them each a crate of guns and let them fight it out. Anyone who knows their true motives would realise that the bastards would just team up and start offshore weapons trading. Money is the one true 'cause', a united Ireland or a united Britan is merely a secondary thought.
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Originally posted by joek:
Playing Devil's Advocate...
Maybe they need a Berlin Wall.
Joe.
Funny you should mention that... ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/25/News/News.35360.html")
Originally posted by Maeglamor:
I'm usually pretty eloquent when posting but I'm going to make an exception (hopefully) just this once and say this **** is pretty ****** up!! These people don't throw bombs at kids in protestation of a paramilitary enemy, they're protecting their (god given apparantley) right to sell drugs, ripped off software and stolen goods. They don't truely give the slightest damn if the IRA gives up it's cause, they need the strife in order to get richer.
Someone once told me that we should drop all of the loyalists on one side of a small island, drop the nationalists on the other, give them each a crate of guns and let them fight it out. Anyone who knows their true motives would realise that the bastards would just team up and start offshore weapons trading. Money is the one true 'cause', a united Ireland or a united Britan is merely a secondary thought.
Speaking of Ireland... ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/26/Features/Features.35394.html")
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 09-26-2001).]
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I can't help but think that it would be a disaster as to getting world support on Isreal's side..... Whether or not a wall will work, it looks really bad. Plus, it still doesn't help the rest of the country.
Edit: And don't ask me for any better ideas, because I sure as hell don't have any.
[This message has been edited by Shrike (edited 09-26-2001).]
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There ARE no good ideas. As long as Israel is there, it will be despised by the Arab nations as a symbol of US meddling (which WAS bad...), and the evil of other cultures (which is just stupid). However, Israel is unusually tough for a small country, and shows no signs of getting wiped except possibly by a concerted effort of the whole Middle East, and then only if Israel had no international aid. Until such an unlikely situation arises, the bloody stalemate will continue.
The problem with the entire area there is it's so damn entrenched. Most of the countries there have been more or less at war since the Middle ages, and have thus become not only EXTREMELY good at repelling invaders, but also very militant (and for a kicker, few have had time between wars to develop their culture beyond mediaeval level). Which means that although they can generally do little or nothing to us (notice how few bombings Bin Laden is actually responsible for, and how hardly any person, group, or country has been nearly so destructive...), when they do pull something off, it would take a miracle to get the perpetrator or win a war. Even with the rest of the Middle Eastern nations giving us free reign, it's like kicking a wall- and it's not like the Afghans in particular haven't turned back greater threats than us, with our desire to keep up appearances and unwillingness to send hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths just to prove a point. These were the very guys who kicked the Soviets' asses, when they had little more than light rifles, fanaticism, and us cheering on the sidelines. What I don't get is why we can't just cut off all access into Afghanistan, letting refugees out (after checking their stuff for anything that could conceivably blow up), and nothing at all in- they're a landlocked country, the Taliban wouldn't last a month, particularly now that they're geared for war, not seige.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
There ARE no good ideas. As long as Israel is there, it will be despised by the Arab nations as a symbol of US meddling (which WAS bad...), and the evil of other cultures (which is just stupid). However, Israel is unusually tough for a small country, and shows no signs of getting wiped except possibly by a concerted effort of the whole Middle East, and then only if Israel had no international aid. Until such an unlikely situation arises, the bloody stalemate will continue.
The very existance of the Jewish State, and the fact of Israel's survival of all the wars against her, is no less then blaphsemy to Allah. Think about that one...
And even if all the Arab nations group against us, we still are the only nuclear power in the area. Worst comes to worst, we would use it to maintain our survival.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
The very existance of the Jewish State, and the fact of Israel's survival of all the wars against her, is no less then blaphsemy to Allah. Think about that one...
Even if He existed and you could ask him, I bet he would say that he actually doesn't give a s***