Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Christopherger on January 16, 2006, 01:54:24 pm
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Can recomendations be made as to finding the best
sources for the authentic Canon of the FreeSpace Universe?
I have found the FS Bible, and also the Manual for FS2, are
there other suggestions and sources for a learning of
the vitals, and history and backstory and what is needed to
be known? I would like to gain as much detailed knowledge
as possible. Thanks in advance for any help with this. :)
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Read the wiki. Ignore anything user made. If it's a campaign hosted here, or for DL here, it's not canon.
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Aside from the obvious ones, these are some useful sources:
command briefing animations (particularly for FS2)
all messages and debriefing stages (there are several that you won't generally see when playing the missions)
multiplayer missions (a lot of people miss this one)
voice files (occasionally it happens that some unused voice file has info in it)
my ship database on the wiki :D
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Thank you both, I will seek info as indicated. I wanted to inquire, will it spoil anyting for me to do this research BEFORE playing through the game, or is it ok to do the background study? I like to experience things as the orginal designers intended, though I certainly do want to learn all eventually. Just did not want to ruin the game play if those of you who are masters of all of this think it might be good to wait. :confused:
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Oh, you should definitely play through the game before reading any of that. I thought you were looking for material to be used in your own missions, fan fiction or something like that. All the stuff I listed earlier is full of spoilers. :)
Before playing the game, I think the only thing that's worth reading is the stuff in the tech room intelligence section.
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Before playing the game, I think the only thing that's worth reading is the stuff in the tech room intelligence section.
I've spent many hours reading through that section. A lot of it is campaign story gold, while the rest of it is just interesting to read. Read the Tech Room entries for the ships as well: some of them explain the historical details behind each ship and hide random bits of trivia (such as the fact that only two dozen Aeolus cruisers were ever made).
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Canon is the two games (FS1 and FS2) including all mission briefings, tech room specs, cutscenes, and table entries, the expansion pack (Silent Threat, original), multiplayer campaign for FS2 (Operation Templar), and the Freespace Reference Bible, in that order. The only other thing that qualifies as canon are statements made by the developers, but as the original text of most of that has gone the way of the dodo, those can't be completely relied on.
Eventually, the Wiki will have it all laid out for you in a nice, readable form. Until then, you'll have to hunt and peck your way through.
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Read the wiki. Ignore anything user made. If it's a campaign hosted here, or for DL here, it's not canon.
Like the Port? Or Selectah's rebuilt multi missions for single? :p
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Eventually, the Wiki will have it all laid out for you in a nice, readable form. Until then, you'll have to hunt and peck your way through.
Of course you are welcome to put it in the wiki yourself, that's what a wiki is for :D :p
But play through the campaigns first, it's much better that way. :nod:
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Thank you all so much for replying I was slow in answering as I am now just beginning training, I have a LOT to learn....I will be careful NOT to spoil things and play through the games first, thanks so much for that warning. I am eager to learn learn all I can for I have always enjoyed the specs of history in naval matters and have endless patience in learning ship types, characteristics, armament, etc. and love the trivia. This is my entry into Space navies though as my past experince has been wet ones. Thanks again for all the pointers and help. I will commence the brain work along with the pilot training. There are a LOT of keyboard commands to learn as I dont have a joystick! :)
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Before playing the game, I think the only thing that's worth reading is the stuff in the tech room intelligence section.
I've spent many hours reading through that section. A lot of it is campaign story gold, while the rest of it is just interesting to read. Read the Tech Room entries for the ships as well: some of them explain the historical details behind each ship and hide random bits of trivia (such as the fact that only two dozen Aeolus cruisers were ever made).
Which is funny since my pilot has 13 aeolus kills in his lifetime stats. I remember reading that in the tech room and thinking, "What idiot cancelled that project? Those things are dynamite!"
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What's really funny is when you check the Wiki on the Hercules it says the following:
Veteran Comments
I would say this is an okay fighter during the first Great War, but during FS2, it has become out-dated. It has six gun-points, so it has reasonable firepower, but that firepower is offset by it's slow speed and 'blockiness'. During FS1, it was a decent fighter, but it has been replaced by the GTF Hercules Mark II and the GTF Myrmidon in FS2. I like this a little better than the newer GTF Hercules Mark II, because of its firepower, but there is almost always a better ship too use in FS2.
An OKAY fighter?? Agreed, in FS2 many more craft came with six gun-points so he's right on that one. But in FS1 it was the only flyable ship with this kind of firepower, not to mention it's ability to carry almost every weapon and an energy output that didn't require you to sacrifice shield and power just to keep your guns firing. But of course, he is a veteran...
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Which is funny since my pilot has 13 aeolus kills in his lifetime stats. I remember reading that in the tech room and thinking, "What idiot cancelled that project? Those things are dynamite!"
Command...who else?
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The Aeolus was good but the Deimos was better and Command figured it was better to have 2 Deimoses than 3-4 Aeoluses.
Can't really blame them.
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Aeolus was the perfect escort cruiser for capitals or freighters or other stuff that miss anti-fighter power, or the hull intengrity to withstand a fighter attack inside GTVA secured systems, while the Deimos is more suited for frontline duty imo.
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It was perfect in military terms but in economic terms it was a bust. It simply cost far too much for a ship that didn't have the front line capabilities of the Deimos.
By spending the money on more Deimoses Command ensured that they had a lot of them when they needed them as opposed to having Aeoluses which wouldn't have been anywhere near as useful.
Try imagining "Clash of the Titans II" but with a pair of corvettes instead of the three Aeoluses. Reckon it would have been as hard to protect the Bastion?
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Certainly would've been easier, but mainly due to the corvettes being able to take more hits than due to their greater armament (which isn't that much greater for anti-fighter work). As I recall, the shivans focus their fire mostly on the escorts. From a pure escort standpoint though, where the enemy actually focused on their intended target, I think I'd actually prefer to have the 3 Aeolus cruisers backing me up for better all round coverage.
It's just a pity that their twin SGreens are useless against anything that can shoot back, which is the real reason the Deimos is such a far better choice in the long run.
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Shade's got it. COTTII isn't a fair comparison IMHO, because the Shivans ignored the Bastion until the escorts were down.
There are many situations where an Aeolus really shines -- guarding a cargo depot is one example. Try destroying (or even scanning) a dozen cargo containers with only a wing of fighters when there's an Aeolus plopped right in the center. :)
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Shade's got it. COTTII isn't a fair comparison IMHO, because the Shivans ignored the Bastion until the escorts were down.
There are many situations where an Aeolus really shines -- guarding a cargo depot is one example. Try destroying (or even scanning) a dozen cargo containers with only a wing of fighters when there's an Aeolus plopped right in the center. :)
No one disputes the Aeoluses abilities. It's a great ship. Best cruiser in the game (with the exception of the Lilith depending on the mission). Point is that I don't think Command were necessarily foolish to cancel production in favour of the Deimos.
Now if they had cancelled production in order to bring back the Fenris class that's another matter :)
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Aeolus is a defective ship. The weak hull plating makes it more or less useless, but what makes it an overkill of uselessness is the fact that its turrets are all more or less easy to take down, considering they're concentrated closely on any array you might be facing.
The ship itself needs cover, otherwise anyone who knows anything is just going to disarm it and then nuke it. That makes the cargo depot easy to scan. Easily disarmable.
However, when an Aeolus is "guarding" a bigger ship (which is in effect guarding the Aeolus, but then it turns into a symbiotic relationship), even if it's just the Deimos going with one hand in hand, then it makes a good addition to various defence strategies.
Deimos however is vastly superior if only for the hull plating, size and arrangment of turrets.
(and actually, I value Fenris' bastard brother Leviathan far more than an Aeolus).
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I kind of suspect the corvette class was intended to eventually replace the cruisers althogether, myself, although that'd be a long term job. IMO the lack of any attempt to replace the aborted Aeolus would tend to indicate that.
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Aeolus is a defective ship. The weak hull plating makes it more or less useless, but what makes it an overkill of uselessness is the fact that its turrets are all more or less easy to take down, considering they're concentrated closely on any array you might be facing.
The ship itself needs cover, otherwise anyone who knows anything is just going to disarm it and then nuke it. That makes the cargo depot easy to scan. Easily disarmable.
However, when an Aeolus is "guarding" a bigger ship (which is in effect guarding the Aeolus, but then it turns into a symbiotic relationship), even if it's just the Deimos going with one hand in hand, then it makes a good addition to various defence strategies.
Deimos however is vastly superior if only for the hull plating, size and arrangment of turrets.
(and actually, I value Fenris' bastard brother Leviathan far more than an Aeolus).
Weak hull plating? For a cruiser, it's armor is awensome.
And you really can't do comparison between ship classes that way. A Corvette has more HP and better anti-cap weapons becouse it's bigger AND it's a differnt class of ship.
To evaluate the Aeolus, you must compare it with other cruisers in-game.
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No, I must compare it with all the classes and determine its function as a member of its class and its complement to the rest of the spectrum.
Aeolus serves a purpose, but not a very good one. De-fe-ctive.
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Aeolus is a defective ship. The weak hull plating makes it more or less useless, but what makes it an overkill of uselessness is the fact that its turrets are all more or less easy to take down, considering they're concentrated closely on any array you might be facing.
The ship itself needs cover, otherwise anyone who knows anything is just going to disarm it and then nuke it. That makes the cargo depot easy to scan. Easily disarmable.
And how are you supposed to disarm it if you don't have Maxims or Trebuchets? They don't just hand those out.
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Prometheus S and Kayser work well, especially the prometheus S, range being 1400.
With such a low threshold even the Morningstar works given time IIRC.
Me? All I need are two banks of Subach and a bank of Tempest. Anything more is overkill.
And that's assuming I'm soloing the thing. With a full four fighter wing, I can just sit on my ass and have them dish out the pain with their Subach's and hornets/harpoons/tornadoes.
I hope they hand those out.
Unless you want me to do it with a PromR. Then I admit, the Aeolus is a "decent" challenge.
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:wtf:
Oh, I forgot. You're the one who thought playing Secrets Reborn on Insane was easy. :rolleyes:
For purposes of comparison, that sort of pilot is most definitely an outlier.
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Like I said, the dumb**** AI with the generally retarded weaponry will do the job. I don't think you need more than that to call something a piece of ****.
Also, what the hell are Secrets Reborn?
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There are 22 official Aeolus cruisers in FS2, 13 of which are destroyed by the time the campaign ends. I just threw in some lame modification into the Aeolus tech description in my campaign's ships.tbl so I could use more in my missions:
"The GTC Aeolus is the first cruiser class produced by the RNI shipyards orbiting Laramis II. The original design was plagued by exorbitant manufacturing costs for its size and power, so production ended in early 2367 after only 24 Aeolus cruisers were constructed. Almost all of these were destroyed by the end of the Shivan incursion. A revision of the cruiser was introduced in 2368, with several small changes that dramatically lowered construction costs without any significant change in combat effectiveness, and was quickly put into mass-production. Aeolus cruisers have started to become an important part of modern Terran fleets, as they are excellent for guarding slow-moving fleet support convoys. Their flak and AAA turrets serve as marvelous deterrents to smaller craft and their twin anti-capital photon beams allow them to duel and defeat most other cruisers."
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Disarming generally means getting in close with cannons, particularly in the context in which you choose to evaluate it as defective, Blackdove. Which, in the case of the Aeolus, amounts to suicide. So show me. Build the mission. I want to see a fighter wing, an average fighter wing, of AI pilots, do what you say they can. Without player input. At most give them a general disarm order.
Given: Corvettes were intended to be the primary offensive weapons.
Given: Cruisers were escort craft.
Given: A good percentage of the GTVA's destroyers are older models less well-equipped to defend themselves against fighter attack.
Given: The Leviathan does not in fact have the speed or manuverablity to react quickly to defend a convoy or larger ship.
The GTVA had a need for a ship such as the Aeolus. Their fault lay in not recognizing it for what it was. There are no bad ships, BlackDove. Only bad commanders.
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There are 22 official Aeolus cruisers in FS2, 13 of which are destroyed by the time the campaign ends. I just threw in some lame modification into the Aeolus tech description in my campaign's ships.tbl so I could use more in my missions:
"The GTC Aeolus is the first cruiser class produced by the RNI shipyards orbiting Laramis II. The original design was plagued by exorbitant manufacturing costs for its size and power, so production ended in early 2367 after only 24 Aeolus cruisers were constructed. Almost all of these were destroyed by the end of the Shivan incursion. A revision of the cruiser was introduced in 2368, with several small changes that dramatically lowered construction costs without any significant change in combat effectiveness, and was quickly put into mass-production. Aeolus cruisers have started to become an important part of modern Terran fleets, as they are excellent for guarding slow-moving fleet support convoys. Their flak and AAA turrets serve as marvelous deterrents to smaller craft and their twin anti-capital photon beams allow them to duel and defeat most other cruisers."
Eeeeeeeeeeeexactly, but that's where it ends as well.
Don't get me wrong, the Aeolus is a fantastic tactical plant as far as escorting specific stuff goes, but that's where it all begins and ends. Not worth the production in the end if the costs are high.
By the way ngt, so many flaws in that post, taking it apart would make me seem sadistic. I'll pretend I didn't see it for your sake.
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And that's assuming I'm soloing the thing. With a full four fighter wing, I can just sit on my ass and have them dish out the pain with their Subach's and hornets/harpoons/tornadoes.
Like I said, the dumb**** AI with the generally retarded weaponry will do the job. I don't think you need more than that to call something a piece of ****.
I'll thank you to check your facts next time before you post such demonstrably false assertions such as these. I just FREDded up a simple mission with a wing of 4 Myrmidons armed with Subachs, Prometheus S's, Harpoons, and Hornets. I gave them a Disarm order against a single Aeolus and sat back to watch the action. The Aeolus tore through them in just over one minute. Total damage: no turrets destroyed, hull strength at 94%. Hardly "dishing out the pain".
Unless you have an overwhelming number of attacking fighters or an extremely long-range weapon, you'll have a hard time penetrating the Aeolus's flak screen. Unless you replace every weapon with blob turrets. :rolleyes:
Also, what the hell are Secrets Reborn?
Sorry, conflation of phrases. I meant Secrets Revealed, the last Silent Threat mission.
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And that's assuming I'm soloing the thing. With a full four fighter wing, I can just sit on my ass and have them dish out the pain with their Subach's and hornets/harpoons/tornadoes.
Like I said, the dumb**** AI with the generally retarded weaponry will do the job. I don't think you need more than that to call something a piece of ****.
I'll thank you to check your facts next time before you post such demonstrably false assertions such as these. I just FREDded up a simple mission with a wing of 4 Myrmidons armed with Subachs, Prometheus S's, Harpoons, and Hornets. I gave them a Disarm order against a single Aeolus and sat back to watch the action. The Aeolus tore through them in just over one minute. Total damage: no turrets destroyed, hull strength at 94%. Hardly "dishing out the pain".
Unless you have an overwhelming number of attacking fighters or an extremely long-range weapon, you'll have a hard time penetrating the Aeolus's flak screen. Unless you replace every weapon with blob turrets. :rolleyes:
Also, what the hell are Secrets Reborn?
Sorry, conflation of phrases. I meant Secrets Revealed, the last Silent Threat mission.
And proof of inadequacy right there considering that the actual command "disarm my target" is not what you're supposed to use when you're disarming a target.
To disarm a target you need to employ another set of commands, and they need to be in accordance with the ship's (one you're disarming) position in relation to your position in relation to the stuff you're ordering to accomplish the disarming.
One has to be a keen observer in order to make the best use of the AI. That doesn't change that the AI in itself is an idiot, as I said before, which is a statement very true when the AI's pattern of attack, evasion and defence is put in comparison to a player's. But controlled well, it is more than an even match for an Aeolus.
When I said a full wing, I meant exactly what you employed in this mission, and actually you gave them PromS. I wouldn't have even given them that. Too much of an easy overkill. Both banks Subachs suffices.
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By the way, added mentalnote for you:
Save that mission. I don't have a computer right now, but once I get one that can run FS2 (hopefully within the next few months), I'll FRAPS you how to go about it, so that you can see I'm not talking bull****.
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And proof of inadequacy right there considering that the actual command "disarm my target" is not what you're supposed to use when you're disarming a target.
To disarm a target you need to employ another set of commands, and they need to be in accordance with the ship's (one you're disarming) position in relation to your position in relation to the stuff you're ordering to accomplish the disarming.
That's hardly "sitting on ones ass", though, which is what you claimed.
I'm not ruling out the possibility that it can be done through issuing commands alone - stranger things have happened. But the commander would have to be a really, really clever tactician to pull it off. Doing it in combination with your wingmates is substantially easier, of course; I just did it - but not without paying a heavy toll in hull and wingmen. I can't imagine how one would do it alone with just Subachs and Tempests.
If you can do it, fine. More power to you. But you can't expect the majority of GTVA pilots to be capable of such a feat. Especially on a regular basis.
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Actually it's nothing overtly complex. If we had multiplayer, I could teach you how to do it in a timeframe of about fifteen minutes. I would have to "show-it-to-you" though.
Let's face it, the commands aren't brain surgery. The AI is pretty simplistic in going about executing them. This stuff is easy to achieve. When I said "Sitting on my ass", I meant not moving the ship at all. That's what sitting on ass means. Coupled with a few strokes of the keyboard I doubt it's tasking in any respect.
Like I said. I'll FRAPS it for you when I get a computer that can run FS2, and I can actively teach it easily through multi. Most people don't realise that stuff like this is piss easy. The hard part of the game mechanic lies elsewhere, but I doubt many people active in the community know of it, considering you can't see it through FRED, modding or tables. I guess one of the perks from being the last remnant of the enlightened PXO crowd. (and I say enlightened because most of that community were morons to the power of infinity - me included in the start).
GTVA pilots who had control of a wing would I imagine, _need_ to know these types of tactics.
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:) Wow, I was away for some days, and returned to see that my humble request about
the canon has become a wonderful extension of the canon itself. Thanks so much for this very interesting discussion about the Aeolus which I have read about but not in the detail
you all share.
thanks very much. it sounds unwise to push an Aeolus too far without sufficent back up! :confused: