Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Solatar on February 19, 2006, 05:36:10 pm
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A thought struck me awhile back about the construction of capital ships. Say the first Orion was commissioned something before/during the 14 Year War. It would have contained current technology, but if a newer Orion was created say, near the end of the 14 Year War/Great War would it have upgraded internal systems? Call it a different generation of ship. It might have more advanced sensors, different weapons, etc. I know that ships were upgraded to utilize beam and flak cannons.
Are all capital ships NOT created equal?
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A thought struck me awhile back about the construction of capital ships. Say the first Orion was commissioned something before/during the 14 Year War. It would have contained current technology, but if a newer Orion was created say, near the end of the 14 Year War/Great War would it have upgraded internal systems? Call it a different generation of ship. It might have more advanced sensors, different weapons, etc. I know that ships were upgraded to utilize beam and flak cannons.
Are all capital ships NOT created equal?
It'd make more sense than not updating the design, that's for sure. Of course, it could be that capships are designed to be easily refittable, given their extremely long operation use period.
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It makes sense that it newer orions would have newer components, but I imagine that old ships would get immediately retrofitted with new sensors and guns and such as soon as they come in for repairs and repaints. I imagine that new designs like the Hecate only come out when enough technological advances have been made that a totally new hull design becomes cheaper to build than just retrofitting the orion again. Probably the Orion's entire power generator and hull construction is totally obsolete by the 2nd great war and any remaining destroyers will not be upgraded more than superficially now until they're all blown up or become so useless and rusty that they're just a liability on the battlefield.
There's no reason that the orion design couldn't be more than 100 years old. It could be the first big destroyer design since the freespace guys found subspace, since I doubt much changed tactically in space war until the use of shields, beams, and fighter intersystem jump drives. Those techs and shivan fighting are so hugely different as to require the construction of entirely new designs like the new FS2 ships.
Tangent: The GTVA are idiots for not cranking out hundreds of aeolus cruisers IMO.
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i don't think things rust all that much in space....? i would think that keeping ships in service after losing contact with earth would be the way they went. assuming that major pieces still originated from earth, new ships wouldn't be possible untill the GTVA was more stable...and the trade lanes were flowing...possibly?
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It's entirely possible, but there would be periodic refits to keep them up to date. I've made reference to it in a campaign I'm working on by calling the post-Capella upgrades for the Orion and Leviathan "Block 3" (with the FS2 version being the Block 2, the FS1 version Block 1, pre-FS1, if there was, Block 0).
Extensive alteration to the internal workings of the ship probably aren't reproducible, though. (I imagine post-FS1 Orions would have expanded internal magazines for fightercraft ordinance, more hanger space, different facilities for handling fighters too: blame the Ursa. It would be tough to retrofit all that to a completed ship.)
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obviously they do get refitted, as the stats for some of the same ships in FS1 are different than in FS2.
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Hmmm, guess you all are right. I was wondering if it'd be justifiable to make an Orion during the reconstruction/right after the Great War armed with Avenger cannons on the little turrets, and larger blobs on the big ones (with the advent of shielding, itty bitty snot turrets can't bring down fighters and bombers).
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Note that while ships don't "rust" in space, they do deteriorate, being bombarded by micro-meteorites and such. Even radiation, solar wind, that sort of thing, can take its toll after a while. And that's not even considering the normal operational stresses... all these things add up.
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But agains hulls that can take multi-gigaton impacts i think that stuff is a bit moot...
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Hmmm, guess you all are right. I was wondering if it'd be justifiable to make an Orion during the reconstruction/right after the Great War armed with Avenger cannons on the little turrets, and larger blobs on the big ones (with the advent of shielding, itty bitty snot turrets can't bring down fighters and bombers).
Probably not as they are using the same Terran Turret's in FS2...except with more shield hitting power. In FS1, those Terran Turrets, after the shields came about, were most important as point defense anti-bomb weapons. They do a darn good job of that so they aren't completely useless...just aren't very useful in any sort of spectacular way.
But thats what the fighter wings are for.
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Dang, I was looking for an excuse to mount machine guns on an Orion, lol. I dunno, I might think of something but you're right about the turrets. They do do a good job on bomb point defense.
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Terran huge turrets are useless as is though, wich is a shame, becasue the turrets they shoot from make it looks as if they should do some serious damage...
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This does assume that the Orion was supposed to be totally replaced. Personal opinion:
It says in the tech room that the Hecate was replacing the Orion as FLAGSHIP of the fleet. I interpret that as meaning that the C&C facilities for the fleet would no longer be on the Orion, they would be on the Hecate. The Orion is still built/used as a "dirtywork" destroyer. It does afterall have a much better anti-capitalship capability than Hecate......
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I've always thought the generational lineage of Freespace ships to look like this:
1st Gen. - Early exploration era, subspace discovery, so colonisation vessels and soforth.
2nd Gen. - First military warships, Orion et al. Years prior to and including 14 Year War & GW.
3rd Gen. - Reconstruction, advent of primitive Beam Weapons. 3rd Gen weapons on 2nd Gen Hulls; early retrofits.
4th Gen. - NTF Reb/GWII; Modern Beam Weapons, Flak. 4th Gen Weapons on 2nd Gen hulls; modern retrofits. New 4th Gen hulls; Hecate et al. Start of phase-out for 2nd Gen. hulls.
That really covers the major generational changes in Terran ships, well, capital ships at least. Of course, fighters would be a wide spectrum, ranging from the 2nd Gen. Medusas and Ulyse.. Ullyse.. Uyy.. The Bat, to the 3rd Gen. Myrmidon, to the 4th Gen. Erinyes.
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I'd have to say that the Orion was probably retrofitted as well as possible, but only as much as its hull design would allow. I doubt that the GTVA would build more Orions after the Great War, seeing as how they failed miserably against both the Shivan destroyers/cruisers and against the Vasudan destroyers. It is likely that Orions very seriously damaged in battle are just evacuated and used for scrap parts, similarly to modern ship/planes that have gone out of production.
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This does assume that the Orion was supposed to be totally replaced. Personal opinion:
It says in the tech room that the Hecate was replacing the Orion as FLAGSHIP of the fleet. I interpret that as meaning that the C&C facilities for the fleet would no longer be on the Orion, they would be on the Hecate. The Orion is still built/used as a "dirtywork" destroyer. It does afterall have a much better anti-capitalship capability than Hecate......
IMO the GTVA would probably have phased out the Orions over (a fairly long) time and used the corvettes - or specifically pairs/trios of them - as 'destroyer hunters', with the Hecate providing long range fighter and bomber cover in a way somewhat akin to a carrier providing air cover for a ground invasion force in modern warfare.
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ACtualy I;ve alwais beieved that the Orions were the better cap-ships of the GTVA ! I dont know exactly how powerfull an Hatshepsuit is in terms of actual beam cannons and theyr power but the Orion seems like the most heavely armed ship out there (beam-cannons that is) ! Sure its crappy against fighters/bommbers but then again it can rely heavely on its fighters to provide it with the cover it needs and if it gets into trouble like a real beam vs. beam kind of situation it can do a lot better then the new class of destroyers.
The Hecate sure as hell isnt worth much when stripped of its fighters or has a damaged fighterbay. Even a cruiser can take it out(shivan that is) !
For the whole generation tipe of ships we tend to see a inceased importance in ships that can provide good C&C tipe of service like the Hecate! I mean that ship may not be that powerfull but with a good C&C capability and a large fighterbay it can prove to be deadly.
Also we see that GTVA tends to utilise more and more the corvettes class of ships for beam engagements this way replacing the destroyers as the primary source of firepower(beams) !
Also I see a future for the Orion after the Capella incident! The GTVA would probably refit these old warships and maibe even produce some more since I doubt thy are as expensive as the newwer models! Also I believe it is posible that the GTVA would produce a second generation of Orions since despite thir age they are a formidable weapon in the hands of skilled captain! How did that thing go......."when an Orion is seen in a sistem the people relax because they feel safe but when the Orion stays for long in that sistem people get nervous because war is soon to follow" or something like that..!
The point is that despite the newer generation of ships are more compact hey do nor have the same rawpower that the previous generation had. And I for see this as a good strategi from the GTVA I mean why build new powerfull warships when we already have excelent ones in use! What they did not have was a good C&C mobile facility a role which the Hecate is more then suited to perform!
The point is that although old these aging ships are given a more inreasing role in the GTVA milatary. We all know that when the GTVA needs a ship to take out or kepp at bay a large number of fighters/bommbers they usualy turn to the Aeolous or the Sobek which are 2 quite old designs but which do the job !
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Running with the idea of the Freespace universe, I think the hecate shows a departure from the old line of thinking that a destroyer's job is to jump in and fight the battle. It's offensively weaker than an orion sure, but with redundant engines and all the anti fighter capability and all-round firing beams, it's job is to control operations but not try assaults alone. It's job is to offer support and rear-guard to corvettes, and is designed so that it can jump out if attacked directly. An orion would still lose to an orion's tonnage of corvettes. Frankly, it's far less costly to have 1 of 4 corvettes in front of a ravanna's main beams than a destroyer. In the first volley, the forward corvette will either die or be so trashed that it would need a drydocking, while the other 3 corvettes would wipe out half the turrets and subsystems on the ravanna with their slash beams. One allied destroyer, even a hatshepsut, would probably die and would definitely need extensive repairs from the same engagement, taking a whole command ship and dozens of fighter wings out of the war.
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WEll yes that is true we see that the GTVA has a profound change in the strategi that it uses but that does not mean that they do not tend to show a little muscle when needed! We often see that when rawpower is needed the GTVA tends to use mainly the older generation of ships! I mean an Aeoulus class cruiser or even 2 combigned with 1 Orion class destroyer can inflict heavy damage against any enemy fleet. Even shivan! Sure the corvettes can do the job but they tend to rely heavely on the support provided by the fighters from a Hecate or Hathshepsuit class destroyer. The point was that with minor improvements on the overall design of the Orion you could have the most powerfull destroyer the GTVA has ever produced ! Also combine this with Aeolous or Sobek class corvettes and there you have it a fleet that can inflict a huge amount of damage to the enemy before its eventualy beaten back!
Imagine a cruiser and a corvette providing diversionary support for the Orion and then a Ravana jumps in to take out the GTVA vessels then the Orion jumps in and engages the RAvana from any way you want except from the front! and then after taking care of the Ravana in maibe 2 voleys of beam fire it lashes out at the remaining capships . A sort of hit and run tacktics! This is the tactic that the GTVA should use against shivan capships(whe there is more then one that is). At least that is what I believe. The reason for this...well its quite simple the Orion has suficient firepower to take out any destroyer out there if it is used in the right way. For the newer class od capships that would take too long and that would result in more good pilots getting killed while tryng to protect the ships from bommbers/fighters.
While the newer generation class of ships have a huge tactical value they tend to be useless when engaging enemyes themselfs. And we al know that no matter how good the tactic it is useless if you dont have something to deliver masive damage in a very short amount of time.
You would say that the corvettes are designed to do this but the beamcannons on the corvettes are very weak and can not take out an enemy fast enough. If for example you would mount 2 BGreens on a corvette then okay it can do the job it was inted to do but until the GTVA replaces the slashers with some real beamcannons they are inferior.
Since we are at the whole generation tipe of ships why hasnt the GTVA improved on the Orion tipe of ships. I mean they are of significant tactical an strategic value not to mention a huge morale booster for the GTVA. I doubt that the GTVA has a ship that can insiper such fear into enemy capship commanders and also inspire such confidence in the terran people. A second generation of Orions would only make the GTVA more powerfull and would also be cheap in terms of design and manufacturing costs since the newer Orions would be based on the previous version! All they have to do is eliminate or reduce some of the weaknesses of the Orion and there you have it a new more powerfull ship at about the same costs as the old one yet far cheapr then the newer classes!
Has anyone actulay made a model like this???
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The GTD Sirona by C914 is a pretty good destroyer, though I think it could use some better weapons. The mode is available on Hades Combine.
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The entire problem with the Orion is that it was always an almost exclusively anti-capship design.
Against smaller vessels the problems mount up:
- Lack of backwards facing turrets, exposing the massive single engine to attack from cruisers, corvettes and bombers.
- Lots of areas (near the frontal antenae especially) that have few turrets defending them, exposing the ship to attack by bombers.
- Overall lack of turrets and terrible firing arcs, making it easy for small craft to take out the turrets and then fire away until the destroyer falls.
- Slow speed, allowing more modern vessels to outrun it with ease, making it a primarily defensive ship.
Overall it would make the cost difference between designing new vessels and fixing all the design flaws of the orion negligible.
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The presence of the Orion's fightercraft group in practice cancels out the deficit of antifighter armament. The same really can't be said of the Hecate's lack of anticapital weapons.
On the subject of what can and can't be retrofitted to a ship, the basic rule of thumb is that you can fit whatever guns you want, since they're on the outside of the ship and easy to add or remove, so long as you can also supply them with power/ordnance. In the case of Avengers (or flak guns) this means magazines, ammunition feeds, and major internal restructuring. Such a refit would take a month or more of time and major resources, but would be doable.
On a related note, it probably isn't unreasonable to assume that the Orion didn't originally have facilities to handle the Harbinger as regular fightercraft ordnance, and so they couldn't be kept in the magazines, but rather on the hanger deck. In the open. Where a multiton fighter might bump into them. Can't have been good for the morale of the crew, and it would have slowed down flight ops. (Which might explain why the Bastion was so slow to get off the entire strike at the Lucifer.)
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my theory is that they had to rip out the officer's spa, bath, and massage parlor deck in the Orion to fit in the reactor for the beamz, and GTA command wasn't going to put up with that. I mean, the Hecate has a pair of high-rise penthouse apartment complexes above the engines. GTA officers need their R&R you know.