Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: mnftg64 on March 21, 2006, 07:51:54 pm
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So I have always wondered why in FS1 the Lucifer was shielded so well we couldn't touch it except in subspace... but in FS2 this is not the case... What the heck happened to that? Did the shivans get dumb or something? I would think that even though it can be destroyed in subspace, that would be a good thing because it forces the enemies to do extra work to destroy it...
Thoughts?
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You see, the Shivans are trying to run old software with their ultra-new equipment--much like us playing old DOS games-- and every time they activate it, all their computers lock up, and then slowly melt into plaster of paris...somehow...
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I wouldn't say the Shivans became dumb, rather the Terran and Vasudan military got just a bit smarter and bit better armed. When you look at FS1, most GTA and PVE ships are inferior in terms of capital ship combat. Granted, their fighters got massive upgrades via shields and better weapons to make them more formidable. As a rule though, most Shivan ships were superior initially.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the GTVA became better equipped. Sure, the Lucifer is immune to harm via FS1 era weaponry, but we've never seen one battle another. Beam weapons changed the equation. We have no idea how effective (canon wise on FRED wise) such weapons would be against the Lucifer's shields, so its fair to say a Lucifer might not do so well against modern GTVA warships.
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They didn't have Will Smith in Freespace 1? :nervous:
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I seem to recall a quotation about the fact that beam cannons made Shivan Sheilds less dangerous, in the intel section of the tech room maybe? Could very well be wrong...
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I kinda meant in relation to fighters...
Unless I am completely making this up, in FS1, fighter weapons and missles do 0% damage. In FS2 fighter weapons and missles can do damage. Do you think that GTVA weapons are really just that much more advanced?
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The Lucifer proper was a special case. There isn't an equivalent in FS2, so it's hardly suprising that fighters are capable weapons against Shivan capital ships. They were in FS1 for all ships other than the Lucifer.
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They didn't have Will Smith in Freespace 1? :nervous:
WOW thats funny
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You see, the Shivans are trying to run old software with their ultra-new equipment--much like us playing old DOS games-- and every time they activate it, all their computers lock up, and then slowly melt into plaster of paris...somehow...
Best explanation evah.
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Yeah, I guess the Lucifer in FS1 could be a special case, but if it worked so well, why not do it for all Lucifer class destroyers?
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So I have always wondered why in FS1 the Lucifer was shielded so well we couldn't touch it except in subspace... but in FS2 this is not the case... What the heck happened to that? Did the shivans get dumb or something? I would think that even though it can be destroyed in subspace, that would be a good thing because it forces the enemies to do extra work to destroy it...
Thoughts?
I believe (in the days of the VBB) one of the developers stated the Lucifer was only invulnerable to FS1-era weapons; i.e. the GTVA simply didn't have the munitions, rather than it being literally invulnerable. Plus beams cut right through shields, and the Lucifer seems to be a special case ship (particularly with 4 reactors, which sort of implies some very heavy power requirements), so there possibly isn't any point in the Shivans shielding the likes of the Sath.
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They didn't have Will Smith in Freespace 1? :nervous:
WOW thats funny
Actually, it was more satirical, but thanks anyway ;)
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why not do it for all Lucifer class destroyers
Maybe they did. We only ever saw the one so there's no telling whether they did that or not. Or if others even exist.
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I seem to recall a quotation about the fact that beam cannons made Shivan Sheilds less dangerous, in the intel section of the tech room maybe? Could very well be wrong...
No, actually you're correct. IIRC, beams were specifically developed to deal with the possibility of a second Lucifer-class destroyer.
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mnftg64, the Lucifer in FS1 was set with an invulnerable flag by the mission designers. That is the only difference. It's an in mission, FREDded, "invulnerable" flag. Except in the last mission (Good Luck), obviously. There is no "special shielding" of ANY kind built into the ship, although I'm sure someone could conceivably add sheath shielding to the HTL Lucifer and set the shields powerful enough that only beam cannons, and not fighter weapons, can penetrate it.
That's why if you make a mission in FS2 and slap a Lucifer class into a blank mission and shoot it, you'll do damage. Canonically speaking, [V]olition never had a Lucifer class in the FS2 campaign (only the heavily armored Sathanas) so they didnt bother to make the FS2 Lucifer actually have shields penetrable only by beam cannons, hence your confusion.
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Yes, that's the technical explanation for it. We already know about the invulnerable flag attached to the FS1 Lucy, so the discussion primarily lies with the story-based explanation for the shielding.
There is no "special shielding" of ANY kind built into the ship, although I'm sure someone could conceivably add sheath shielding to the HTL Lucifer and set the shields powerful enough that only beam cannons, and not fighter weapons, can penetrate it.
IIRC this is the case with the FSPort--there is an actual visible shield that forms when weapons are fired at it. Of course, since they typically go through shields like a knife through butter, beam cannons would do damage against the Lucy, laser cannons and missiles wouldn't.
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Although, the Lucifers' shields were described as 'sheath' shielding, which could imply some totally different type of technology.
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Are there any mods where capital ship shielding works and looks neat like fighter shielding? It would be fun to have missions with shield breaking bombs and stuff.
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I belive the sheilded Deimos model was made to prove that it could be done, go look on Hades Combine.
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It had shield bubbles around turrets and subsystems, but you won't be able to import them to the HTL model, as they won't line up properly.
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So I guess it would be safe to say that storywise, if a Lucifer were to battle GTVA forces, they could beat it with beams, but still not some of the older weaponry.
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I ran some tests the other day and posted the following in the Inferno forum:
Wasn't the Colossus created for combating Lucifer-class vessels in the first place? And now we learn it probably couldn't take one down.... Another spectacular GTVA flop.
No we didn't learn that, just because Derelict says so doesn't make it official. Until a Colossus class goes up against a Lucifer we will never know officially.
You can easily put together a mission to compare them. It's quite obvious Derelict never did this because I just ran a bunch of experiments using the Colossus from High Noon and the standard Lucifer (though with SSL beams instead of SSLs) and the Colossus won every time, usually by a significant margin (50% hull or more). Short summary of the results:
--If you point the Lucifer at the Colossus and the Colossus perpendicular to the Lucifer, there's no contest - the Colossus wipes the floor with the Lucifer.
--If you point the Lucifer and the Colossus directly at each other head-on, it's much closer, but the Colossus still wins by a safe margin.
--The only time the Lucifer came close to winning was when I started them at their High Noon distances away from each other and maxed out the range of the SSLBeams to 30 km. It took a long time for the Colossus to get into range of the Lucifer, and in that time it lost a significant amount of hull, but once it got into range it was able to destroy the Lucifer before getting destroyed itself.
This assumes, of course, that beams can penetrate the Lucifer's FS1 shield.
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The whole point of the Lucifer was extermination.
Nothing else the Shivans sent in was a true, out-'n'-out warship. For FS2 they had an entirely different goal - so the only combat vessels they sent in were escorts.
I still think that the FS1 Lucifer would kick everything's ass.
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The whole point of the Lucifer was extermination.
Nothing else the Shivans sent in was a true, out-'n'-out warship. For FS2 they had an entirely different goal - so the only combat vessels they sent in were escorts.
I still think that the FS1 Lucifer would kick everything's ass.
I thought of the Lucifer as a cheap alternative to the sathanas for exterminating peons without shields or beams, assuming that beams can decently pierce big ship shields of course. If the shivans were worried that the GTVA might send in a shielded cap ship of their own, their massive deployment of beam heavy ships like the ravana and rakshasa in fs2 makes more sense. maybe 5 reactors for cap shields are really expensive logistically? Could be why there were so many shivan supply depots in fs1.
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I thought of the Lucifer as a cheap alternative to the sathanas for exterminating peons without shields or beams, assuming that beams can decently pierce big ship shields of course.
you and everyone else in HLP. ;)
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what is the fredding command for making the lucifer invincable? I am pretty sure u check the invincable box in the ships properties? right? I mean does the lucifer come with shields by itself, like is it built into the ships "features"?? So if you put the colossus against the lucifer, you couldnt make the lucifer invinsable or else it wouldnt work at all, right?
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I still think that the FS1 Lucifer would kick everything's ass.
The Collossus and Sathanas could probably waste it.
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what is the fredding command for making the lucifer invincable? I am pretty sure u check the invincable box in the ships properties? right? I mean does the lucifer come with shields by itself, like is it built into the ships "features"?? So if you put the colossus against the lucifer, you couldnt make the lucifer invinsable or else it wouldnt work at all, right?
Retail Lucifer is just like the Colossus. Exept that it looks different and has more hitpoints. Unless you tick the "invincible" box in FRED. Then it is just like the colossus, exept that it looks different and is invincible. Plain as that.
There however is a version if the Lucifer somewhere, that is shielded (is it in the mediavp? can't remember). With that you migh check that it has shields enabled, should be on by default. The shields function like fighter shields, that is you can nibble them away with a subach. Exept if you tick the Lucufer as "invincible". Then it is just that, invincible.
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Retail Lucifer is just like the Colossus....
Uh... no, the Lucifer (in Freespace 2, by default) only has 2 SRed beams (the same type found on the Cain) although that can be changed. The Orion can often destroy a Lucifer, an Orion can never destroy a Colossus... with default weapons at any rate... because of the "supercap" flag. The Collossus is also over twice the length of the Lucifer and as the cutscene says (accurately) "Twelve Lucifer class destroyers can fit within its massive hull."
Lucifer ≠ Colossus.
Oh... Never mind
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Oh... Never mind
Yes. Quite. Well done. :p
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Just had my wisdom teeth out, vykadine (sp?) does bizzare things to ones mind. I considered completely wiping out what I said, but left it for the humor content.
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Retail Lucifer is just like the Colossus....
Uh... no, the Lucifer (in Freespace 2, by default) only has 2 SRed beams (the same type found on the Cain) although that can be changed. The Orion can often destroy a Lucifer, an Orion can never destroy a Colossus... with default weapons at any rate... because of the "supercap" flag. The Collossus is also over twice the length of the Lucifer and as the cutscene says (accurately) "Twelve Lucifer class destroyers can fit within its massive hull."
Lucifer ≠ Colossus.
Oh... Never mind
Too bad that it doesn't exactly LOOK like 12 lucifers can fit within the colossus in-game. ;7
the reason the colossus would bbq the lucy... well, i'll let the 3 or 4 BFGreens on the collie's broadside speak for themselves. ;)
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No one ever said the 12 Lucifers were whole, chopsaw anyone?
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Of course from the FS2 demo, we know that the lucy has those side mounted beam cannons that can core an orion like an apple, but that never gets put on the in-game ship... unless you hack the htl lucifer and enable them. That can get at least 1 more LRed into the fight, and the colossus gets blown up pretty quickly if you use the 1 shot orion kill gun that was posted in the hi poly lucifer thread with its own graphics. Eh. These what-ifs are always a moot point.
Anyone else disappointed that a lucifer didn't show up in the main fs2 campaign? Slaying Lucifer would have been a much cooler mission than Slaying Ravana I think.
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Didn't the FS2 Lucifer get it's own special LuciferBeam?
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nah, it got LReds.
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No the Freespace 2 Lucifer was equiped with SReds, the same cannon mounted on the SC Cain, making the Lucifer a sitting duck.
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Didn't the FS2 Lucifer get it's own special LuciferBeam?
That came with the FSPort, IIRC.
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I thought of the Lucifer as a cheap alternative to the sathanas for exterminating peons without shields or beams, assuming that beams can decently pierce big ship shields of course. If the shivans were worried that the GTVA might send in a shielded cap ship of their own, their massive deployment of beam heavy ships like the ravana and rakshasa in fs2 makes more sense. maybe 5 reactors for cap shields are really expensive logistically? Could be why there were so many shivan supply depots in fs1.
That actually ties in to Noise's Into the Depths of Hell campaign. At one point (Chapter 3?) the Exile Fleet blows up a sheild manufacturing depot...or something like that anyway.
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If the Beam Cannons bypass shields, what is the idea of keep the shields? A strong attack is the best defense. Anyway, The Lucifer-class should be something special to the Shivan, lets just say, a fleet of +90 Sathanas cant be builded in 30 years... The Lucifer-class could be a Speacial operations ship or a scout ship... Something special, Anyway, is the same tha let say, Why the Sathanas dont have shields? or why any other ship have shields?, that is because those big shield system needs extreme power to work and keep them up. That limits the offence power, so lets wipe them out and add more offence power. The Sathanas is the best esample.
Think this... in the Ancients records, they say "When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others: They did not die."
And more exsactly, the part "They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting" others what?, the Shivan are the only race that the Ancients meet, so when they say: "When the destroyers came for us, we attacked." they refers to that class of destroyer... Could be the Lucifer-class or... Could be a Sathanas class which shields, the Shivans at that moment, the shivans could using shields on his super destroyers at the cost of firepower. of cource, the beams not even exist.
Well just two thing: The Lucifer Class is old ship or a "special Class", the Beams cannons rendered the Shield tecnology on big ships obsolete.
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And more exsactly, the part "They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting" others what?, the Shivan are the only race that the Ancients meet, so when they say: "When the destroyers came for us, we attacked." they refers to that class of destroyer... Could be the Lucifer-class or... Could be a Sathanas class which shields, the Shivans at that moment, the shivans could using shields on his super destroyers at the cost of firepower. of cource, the beams not even exist.
Thats not right. Then Ancients eliminated countless of other races. That's what "the others" means, the other races they concured. And they refer Shivans as "The Destroyers", 'cos they kind of like destroyed the Ancients...
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right. "destroyers" in that context does not mean the ship class, it means the shivans in general.
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Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years, our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.
And we travelled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy; and before long, we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy, and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life; and we subdued it, or we crushed it. In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.
They say "For so long, never did we encounter advanced life".
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They say "For so long, never did we encounter advanced life".
And then they did thanks to travelling via subspace (exactly how the Ancients expanded is one of the fuzzier things of the monologues; it implies non-subspace FTL of some sort), and blew it up - And we saw other advanced life; and we subdued it, or we crushed it. I'm not sure exactly what your point is here?
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When they say "And we saw other advanced life" I think that two are they and the Shivans...
But lets back to the other part...
When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others: They did not die.
Now, when say "Only these were not like the others: They did not die" Now... or all Shivan Ships have shields or the Ancients has been destroyed by a fleet of Lucifer-class or other class and they are calling Destroyer to that class...
And the Ancients5 give me the razon....
There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.
We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
But we have no way to deliver the hurt. We have the knowledge, but not the means. And so this is our legacy:
In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked.
Now, they are talking in plural, so again, or All Shivan ships have shields or they has been destroy by a shielded fleet of destroyers-class, could be the Lucifers, Sathanas, none know.
Well all of this to say, The Shielding system are a old tecnology and become useless thanxs to the Beam cannons. And they ambicion for more firepower.
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Dude. You are taking the monologues too literally. When Shivans wiped the floor with the Ancients, it doesn't mean that Ancients didn't mange to down single Shivan ship. They were generally a bit more adanced than Terrans. So they likely had at least meson bombs, or similar WMD's. There's a whole bunch of dead Shivans for you when one of those blows up.
The Ancients most likely could have downed Shivans cap ships (because they were unshielded), but in reality it was nearly impossible because of the Shivan fighters and Bombers. They really could not do anything to stop the shielded Shivan fighters, so the capships were virtually untoucheable under their fighterscreens. Thats what it means "They did not die". The Shivans were an unbeatable enemy to the Ancients, not because they were invoulnerable, but because they were unable to fight them effectively.
And nothing indicates that there were more than one Lucifer that killed Ancients (thought there could as well been more). When Ancients say "they", it doesn't mean lots of Lucys. It means ****load of Shivans. Thats ofcourse just IMO. But it seems to be the generally accepted theory.
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When they say "And we saw other advanced life" I think that two are they and the Shivans...
Wrong.
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years, our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.
And we travelled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy; and before long, we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy, and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life; and we subdued it, or we crushed it. In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.
It does not sound like they are describing the Shivans there. I find it hard to believe that they destroyed the shivans and subdued them until Shivans started sending destroyers instead of smaller ship classes. Furthermore the comment about the Shivans being on a slower evolutionary path makes little sense as the monologues are being spoken by someone aware of the course of the entire war. They know that the Shivans weren't inferior to them.
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I always believed that when they said "they did not die", it meant that the Ancients had no weapons that could pierce shields (think entire fleet armed with ML-16's). This is just a theory, but it makes some sense. How did we defeat the Shivans? By assimilating their tech. Maybe that never occured to the Ancients except at the very end.
It is also important that the Lucifer's sheilds don't work in subspace, but neither do any single ships' sheilds. I don't think they were referring only to the Lucifer when they said that.
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But, what about Ancients5?
There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.
We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
But we have no way to deliver the hurt. We have the knowledge, but not the means. And so this is our legacy:
In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked.
"We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed."
"In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked"
Now, Here, they are talking about a Shielded Ship, and they say "Destroyers", so....
EDIT: Well... They could refering to the fighters too... but that means that the Ancients are very... weak? -in tecnology- I also find hard to belive that a race that expanded so much and created a subspace tecnologies like the knossos, be soo bad in weaponry.... Anyway, none knows...
EDIT2: The only explanation is that they never encounter other race, that the only way, no war, no demand for superior weaponry... but this leds us back to ancients2...
"When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others: They did not die."
Who are the "others".
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The "Destroyers" are certainly symbolic- they don't say superdestroyers- which is what the Lucifer is, and they don't say Juggernaught- the Sathanas. Plus refering to a ship class would break the poetry of the monolouges
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When they say "And we saw other advanced life" I think that two are they and the Shivans...
Wrong, because of "the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path".
I'd note; Shivans. Shiva (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shiva.html); the Hindu god of destruction (but also of regeneration ). Hence; the destroyers.
The reasoning for the Shivans being so superior to the ancients is twofold; firstly, the Shivans being a much more advanced race, pure and simple. Secondly, the Ancients not having the impetus to develop Shivan-level technology because they were attacking species that were less developed than they were (you could say the Shivans are mirroring this in attacking the Ancients and later Terrans and Vasudans).
Also, I'd suggest 'they would not die' refers more to the species than individual ships. If you interpret the monologues literally, then it indicates the Ancients colonised the entire galaxy, which kind of contradicts the stated extent of their empire in FS2.
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hmmm yes this have sence... and... welll someone noticed that in this way that the Shivans at the end of FS2 could be the new "Ancients"? A race that are very expanded and only find inferior races... That could be why thay dont whant to fight the Terrans and Vasudans anymore.
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Could be. But in the end of FS1 the dude suggests that the Ancients were not the first cicilization Shivans destroyed. That they are the great destroyers, but also the great preservers. Meaning they kill off any race who grows too big and messes with the zen of the universe, or some other ying&yang stuff. Basicly, we know what they do - they destroy races - but why they do it, has been open for debate since the beginning of times.
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But the Shivans, as far as we can tell, don't colonize. They don't go about wrecking undeveloped worlds to farther extend the reaches of their empire. The Shivans react to either the ability to use Subspace and thus supercede life on faraway worlds or to conflict between races (Ancients vs lesser races, Terrans vs Vasudans) and only then do they come in and wipe out the offending species. What certainly didn't happen is that the shivans - for any reason - "didn't want to fight the Terrans and Vasudans anymore," as you'll recall in both instances their advance was halted by the absolute newest tech available to the alliance. That doesn't mean they are unwilling - or incapable - of responding to that development with even bigger and more powerful weapons.
As to the "and they did not die" point in the Ancient monologues, that certainly means the race and not the ships. The ancients were roving around the galaxy exterminating not just civilizations but entire worlds of life to replace it with their own. A civilization dying to them would mean that race becoming extinct. The Shivans, unlike all the races they had subdued before, just kept coming, in numbers and with technology that the Ancients simply could not stop. In time, they were simply overwhelmed.
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Frankly, we don't have a clue what the Shivan do, which is why they're such a good enemy. Do they have a vast existing empire and just occasionally strike out beyond it to identify and prevent any potential threats halfway across the galaxy ala the modern US (to generalize)? Who knows.
Albiet, I'm not sure the Ancients were just exterminators. The monologue has the phrase And we subdued it or we crushed it. For me, the former (combined with the clear difference indicated by 'or crushed') indicates they might have been into the odd bit of enslavement (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=subdue). Perhaps, even, with the Vasudans.
I think the idea that the Shivans act as a sort of galacitic natural selection force, requiring species to adapt, unify (in the TV case) and progress or die, is an interesting one. As is their timing, apparently (well, admittedly we only have 3 examples) attacking at a time that coincides with conflict involving subspace-faring races.
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Only two examples, really. The 3rd time around, we sought them out (rather, Bosch and co. did).
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"When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others: They did not die."
Who are the "others".
Every other race they had defeated.
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Only two examples, really. The 3rd time around, we sought them out (rather, Bosch and co. did).
Well, we opened the door. Who knows what prompted them to step through?
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Captin Aurthur Roemieg (spelling iss horrible).