Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mars on April 12, 2006, 10:17:35 pm
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- The Deimos has the advantage of having an excellent fighter and bomber defense
- The Sobek has the advantage of having two excellent beam cannons, making it superior in a warship-to-warship fight.
- The Moloch has a fighterbay, on top of okay defenses and beam cannons, adding to its advantage
- Corvettes in general have been estimated (to the best of my ability) to have 1 and 2/3X to 2X the crew complement of cruisers, using several cruisers rather than one corvette may get the job done just as effectivly at a smaller cost in lives.
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I am biased like crazy. I 'dislike' almost all non-terran ships.
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hi,
mhh the best corvette, mhh not so easy.
like you say all of this corvetts have advantages and disadvantages, i think military is there no real winner.
Mehrpack
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Best all-rounder is unquestionably the Deimos. The Sobek is just weak really, while the Moloch gets dinged for its crappy anti-fighter defense.
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Yeah, Deimos FTW!
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I can do a strafing run on a moloch with maxims and take out half of its turrets.
The Sobek is really weak from the sides and bottom.
Deimos wins by default.
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Yeah deimoses are very formidable.
They can handle their own on fighters and bombers and larger warships.
Deimoses also take a while to destroy.
The deimos also has a wide array of weaponry, flak, lots of laser turrets, AAA beams, and good placed big beams.
The sobek is a weaker vessel.
But, i've noticed that it's always deployed with a good fighter screen.
The sobek is completely awesome when supported with one or more fighter wings.
Also the sobek is in the "stupid dog" role for ships (the sobek thinks it's destroyer when it's not ;7).
Sobeks just keep taking on destroyers and bigger ships (if you remember the few missions in fs2 with the sobek and the sathanas :lol:).
The sobek is highly effective also, but i just don't like it as much, but it is trustworthy to run to when you're almost dead.
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A sobek never directly engages a Sathanas, except when it is able to get into position to more or less be safe from the Sath's main weaponry. And unlike a destroyer, the sobek could stay there. As for going head-to-head, that would have been with a Demon. And for its designed roll as an anti-capital ship without the size and cost of a destroyer, the Sobek is very capable. It's when it's put against fighters (or generally out-manuvered) that it gets in to trouble, but then it's much like a destroyer in that regard anyway. The Deimos is a better all-around, but has less hitting power head-to-head. The Moloch, as its tech description implies, is really inferior to both and if it were not for the small fighterbay (which is too small to launch bombers) it would be worthless.
As for the crew compliments, a Sobek has a crew listing of about 3000, IIRC. Most of us generally put the Deimos at a similar number. Cruisers have crews numbering in the hundreds, so the crew differential is not a mere 1.5-2X but rather a whole order of magnitude.
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The statement that a Deimos or Sobek can take out a Moloch is really kinda...debatable. The Moloch has fewer heavy beams, sure. They are also the vastly superior SRed.
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There's nothing superior about an SRed, especially in comparison to the Sobek and Deimos V/TSlash. The Rakshasa, a cruiser, has more firepower in it's primary guns than the Moloch.
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I recall reading somewhere that the Moloch only really made it into the definition of Corvette because of its ridiculous armour levels. Other than than, it's more a 'Heavy Cruiser' by Freespace terms.
Personally I think the best Anti-cruiser ship is the Sobek, but the best for all round situations has to be the Deimos.
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The Diemos, no contest.
Better AAA defenses, better Missile defenses, better hull armor, better primary beam cannon coverage. While a Sobek is a somewhat cheaper alternative and has a better assault head-on, with a smaller profile, it's extremely weak when attacked by any ship from the rear, and the hull structure, despite being strong, is still not all THAT strong. It also really doesn't have all that many more turrets than an Aeolus, which is probably better suited for Fighter support and anti-warship roles, and may even be a tad cheaper, too. The Deimos on the other hand, handles itself well against multiple opponents, has the hull plating to take a tremendous beating and is capable of taking on any Shivan warship smaller than it or the same size (save a Lilith) one-on-one and win.
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The Sobek and the Deimos are both nasty to attack, but the Deimos is just nastier to deal with. The Sobek has those two AAAf beams on the bow and two guarding the rear with flak to balance it all out nicely, but the Deimos wins by having AAAf beams all over the place and with four anti-capital beams. The Deimos just looks more aesthetically-pleasing as well.
The Moloch is just... embarrasing. Like Phreak said, a good Maxim run can easily disarm it, leaving it prey to any warship or bomber.
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The statement that a Deimos or Sobek can take out a Moloch is really kinda...debatable. The Moloch has fewer heavy beams, sure. They are also the vastly superior SRed.
The SRed is more of a cruiser beam. While it is vastly superior to the SGreen (what beam isn't except for the LTerslash?), it is inferior to the V/T Slash.
Technicaly the Moloch has the same number of anti-capitalship beams as the Rakshasa, but they are not concentrated. It can only fire two of its beams at most at any given target (usually only one because it needs to be in a certain position to do it). While it can munch any GTVA cruiser, for a corvette it is quite weak. It's only saving graces are that fighterbay (which isn't particularly useful) and better anti-fighter defences (compared with other shivan capital ships). Even then it still is just bomber-bait.
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Had to go with Sobek, I deal with the fighters, they deal with the capital ships. Firepower ftw!
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The Deimos, the other's just cant compete.
It needs some sort of mgreen instead of those silly slashers though...
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I wanna know why the Lilith is so damn powerful.
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To put it simply, LRed (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_%28FS2%29#Beam_Cannons)..
All other cruisers or corvettes carry much less efficient weapons
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I really wished the Terran and Vasudan models had had fighterbays as well... I would LOVE to have been able to set a campaign aboard a Deimos.
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Why de the terrans have a BIG beam, but shivans have a LARGE beam?
I really wished the Terran and Vasudan models had had fighterbays as well... I would LOVE to have been able to set a campaign aboard a Deimos.
There was one set on a deimos once.
Also in the mission with the Paracombe, Malstrom, and the Collosus, the deimos there 'deploys' a wing of perseus! How does that happen?
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There's only one way to settle this I say!
*opens FRED*
edit- *downloads FRED* :D
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There's nothing superior about an SRed, especially in comparison to the Sobek and Deimos V/TSlash. The Rakshasa, a cruiser, has more firepower in it's primary guns than the Moloch.
They have comparable refire, and as I've noted several times when one of the GTVA ships engages a Moloch, the Moloch's design maximizes the problems inherent to slash-type weapons. Namely, because it tends to be thin, most of a slash shot's time will be spent shooting off into space instead of carving a line in the Moloch's hull. A Deimos engaging a Moloch with its forward guns, approaching from amidships on the Moloch, will do an average of 1% hull damage per beam salvo to its opponent. This drops when they engage from any other angle. The SReds will do an average of 3% hull damage per beam shot, 5-7% per salvo if more then one bears on the target, to a Deimos.
It's sad but true that a Leviathan is capable of damaging a Moloch more substantially, more quickly, then a Deimos is. There's a mission in Cleaning Crew which I spent a lot of time testing that demonstrated these facts. A Leviathan's SGreen, because it will expend all its energy against the target rather then mostly against vacuum, will do 3-5% hull damage to a Moloch per shot.
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The Deimos won. With 78% integrity left.
http://www.rapidsharing.com/4b3f728af45c33c755a8afa59f181b3c
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The Deimos is better than the Sobek because of its piranha launchers, which make it significantly more effective against fighters. I think they are fairly comparable otherwise (both are vulnerable to attack from certain angles). The Moloch is a far cry from either one.
I guess the Iceni is not really considered to be a corvette?
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It needs some sort of mgreen instead of those silly slashers though...
I agree.
In fact, I once went through the ships and weapons tbls, changing the weapons loadouts on all ships to something more suitable. My MGreen was esssentially just TerSlash, made non-slashy. And with a slightly slower refire rate.
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I guess the Iceni is not really considered to be a corvette?
It's more of a pocket-destroyer. It has (IIRC) 4 BGreens which can punch a big hole almost anything. It's armor is in between a corvette and a destroyer.
The Deimos won. With 78% integrity left
Try changing the Deimos beams to SGreens, and then re-play that mission. I am really curious what the results would be.
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Just to clarify:
- The TerSlash does 321 sustained damage per second.
- The SRed does 145 sustained damage per second
- The LTerSlash does 149 sustained damage per second
- The SGreen does 61 sustained damage per second
So unless the TerSlash really is less than half as accurate as the SRed, the TerSlash is far more effective, also the Deimos is armed with four of them, rather than the Moloch's three.
The SGreen is really horrible, doing less than 1/5 of the damage of the TerSlash, so a Deimos would need to be armed with 20 of them to have the same potential fire-power.
There is no doubt that the Sobek can take out the Deimos, or that the Sobek or the Deimos can take out the Moloch, I've tested every situation I can think of and it just comes out that, try it yourself, after about 50 repeats of the same test, with 20 different tests, you'll agree.
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Ah, but you see, basing your numbers on sustained damage-per-second and soforth denies operational realities. Slash beams truly come into their own only against targets of destroyer scale or larger; against smaller craft they will inveitably expend something between one-third and nine-tenths of the shot against empty space. (Nothing is more depressing then seeing a friendly Deimos slash a shot vertically across the spar section of an Aeolus. It has practically no effect.) A Deimos' slash sweep length is, approximately, from end-to-end of the superstructure of an Arcadia, perhaps slightly less. A Moloch along its longest axis when approached from any angle is three-fifths that, or less. Thus with an absolute optimal hit against a Moloch, starting at the tip of the bow and slashing along back to the tip of the launch deck/engine cowling, you're getting dangerously close to that "half as accurate" figure cited.
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As I said the TerSlash would actually need to be half as accurate as the SRed to do the same damage - it isn't. Even if it was the Deimos has four of them, as opposed to the Molochs three. Also it is not damage-as-second, it is sustained damage a second, there is a big difference.
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Deimos - just darn good-looking.
It is my favorite ship in the game. I weep for every one lost in battle. :(
Wouldn't it having non-slashing beams make it pretty uber?
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I thought the Iceni was a Command Frigate or at least a Heavy Frigate.
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I confer with ngtm1r, I tested it out a few weeks ago, and got about what I expected, on a head on approach a Moloch will turn a Deimos into pudding, but as they go into the circle of death things change, the Moloch will rarely get to fire more then one beam cannon, while the Deimos will fire two. So, the Deimos will slowly cut down the hull of the Moloch.
But, that is the thing, very slowly, due to the slash beams as ngtm1r pointed out, it takes a good while to bring it down. But, if a Moloch is at a slanted slightly up position, staying still it can beat a Deimos fairly easily, that is unless it gets a luck shot on one of the beam cannons.
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For some reason I always liked the Sobek, because it reminded me of something out of Babylon 5.
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I confer with ngtm1r, I tested it out a few weeks ago, and got about what I expected, on a head on approach a Moloch will turn a Deimos into pudding, but as they go into the circle of death things change, the Moloch will rarely get to fire more then one beam cannon, while the Deimos will fire two. So, the Deimos will slowly cut down the hull of the Moloch.
If you're entering the circle of death then you're not fighting either ship properly.
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I find the Deimos usually ends up disabling some of the Moloch's beam cannons before it succombs. The circle of death is just fine- it's called toe-to-toe, it's how capital ships attack each other, because they usually can't broadside.
In the end, corvettes shouldn't usually duke it out with eachother anyway, bombers are typically the deciding factor, and bombers are what the Deimos handles best. The argument is not "which is a better battle-ship" the question is "which is a better warship", the actual power of the Deimos as a battle-ship is, as you say, debatable. However when you get down to it, it is but one facet of the warship, and this discussion is begining to veer off topic. Just decide for yourself how good the Deimos is at its various tasks, then vote.
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The circle of death is lazy FREDding on most occassions. It's certainly not how the captain of the ship would fight it. Especially in the case of a ship with it's beam weapons in front.
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*Sigh*
Are you saying that all cap-ship battles should take place at maximum distance with both ships facing each other? If so , that would give an unfair advantage to offensive designs like the Rakshasa and Ravana, granted: war is not fair, but if all battles proceed the same way, that would suggest extremely poor strategy on the COs part. If not, what exactly are you saying, (plain as possible please, I'm as tired as hell)
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I'm biased because the Moloch is my favourite FS ship.
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I made a special deimos with 500000 HP, instead of the 4 slashers, there is 4 SPECgreens ( just like BFGreens, but with faster firing rate), 4 AAA2's (100 damage every few miliseconds). It killed a Moloch and 2 fighter wings with 97% hull integrity left. Then it killed a demon with 90% integrity left.
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Somehow I don't think that counts.
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:lol:
I didn't think it would. But still, it could take on a sobek, a moloch, and some other ships too.
In fact, it just killed a Ravanna, a lilith, and a moloch, and 4 fighter wings all at the same time in just 4:25 with 49%hull integrity. I'll match it up with the collie. hehe. im goin' crazy.
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And I thought I was tired.
So any other comments.
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*Sigh*
Are you saying that all cap-ship battles should take place at maximum distance with both ships facing each other? If so , that would give an unfair advantage to offensive designs like the Rakshasa and Ravana, granted: war is not fair, but if all battles proceed the same way, that would suggest extremely poor strategy on the COs part. If not, what exactly are you saying, (plain as possible please, I'm as tired as hell)
What Kara's saying is that just leaving capships to circle each other in accordance with their own (lack of) AI is lazy FREDing, but your alternative of having them sit there is lazy FREDing too. Both involve plopping down the ships, beam freeing them, and sitting back to watch. A good FREDed battle will use waypoints and scripting to determine where the ships are in relation to one another at all times rather than relying on them to figure it out. A Deimos, for example, would probably function best if it is allowed to close to point-blank range where its slashers stand a higher chance of staying on target through more of their firing cycle. Plus, get it in close and its myriad flak batteries and Pirhana launchers will do substantial damage to its target. So it would be scripted to get in close and try to stay broadside. A Moloch would do better at range where it's not suceptable to those attacks, and so would try to plot a course parallel to its target at a more optimal range and would be scripted as such. That's good FREDing, and makes for more interesting missions.
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Makes sense. And both corvettes are the same as far as speed and maneuverability.
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*Sigh*
Are you saying that all cap-ship battles should take place at maximum distance with both ships facing each other? If so , that would give an unfair advantage to offensive designs like the Rakshasa and Ravana, granted: war is not fair, but if all battles proceed the same way, that would suggest extremely poor strategy on the COs part. If not, what exactly are you saying, (plain as possible please, I'm as tired as hell)
I'm saying that if you've simply given both ships orders to attack each other you've set up the mission wrong. For the reasons you state the Moloch is actually better served in such a battle if it simply sits there and lets the Deimos come to it. So why on Earth would it move towards the Deimos and sacrifice the one advantage it has over it?
Capships battles should be scripted with both ships following waypoints in order to manouver themselves into the optimum position against the enemy. The ai-chase/attack order actually does a spectacularly bad job of this with capships which means that it is not a fair test of the power of either ship.
If the moloch stays still and lets the deimos come to it does it do any better?
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*Sigh*
Are you saying that all cap-ship battles should take place at maximum distance with both ships facing each other? If so , that would give an unfair advantage to offensive designs like the Rakshasa and Ravana, granted: war is not fair, but if all battles proceed the same way, that would suggest extremely poor strategy on the COs part. If not, what exactly are you saying, (plain as possible please, I'm as tired as hell)
He's saying; script it.
FS capship AI is almost somewhat of an afterthought; capships usually have better broadside weaponry, so the game just assumes it for all them and has them both try and keep their sides to each other; so they circle endlessly or, in once case, just keep travelling parallel. So use paths and waypoints to have ships maneuver in a fiarly sensible way and attack tactically, even to the point of coding in each beam fire with SEXPs.
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If the moloch stays still and lets the deimos come to it does it do any better?
Actually I've tested that, the ship that is sitting still will usually prevail over the active attacker.
And now that I've gotten three answers saying the same thing by three different people, I know what he's saying. However, at the point where you code in every beam fire, you can make the Fenris beat out an Orion, and the ability of the warships involved is no longer an issue, so I don't think that makes as much sense as FREDed simulated AI.
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i say the Deimos, its got the anti-figther cover, no blind spots really and if you replace the 2 terran turrets below the forward Terslash's with 2 more Terslash's then it becomes a total nightmare for Capital ships!
Why is the Sobek only got 2 Vslash i'm sure that in the tech description is was designed to take on beam cannons and be able to go toe to toe with anythreat?
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VSlash beams are very effective, doing more than twice the sustained damage of TerSlash beams. Also it's intended to go for weak spots. In Sicilian Defense you normally need to disable the broadside beams of the Orion in order to keep the Sobek alive.
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And now that I've gotten three answers saying the same thing by three different people, I know what he's saying. However, at the point where you code in every beam fire, you can make the Fenris beat out an Orion, and the ability of the warships involved is no longer an issue, so I don't think that makes as much sense as FREDed simulated AI.
Note that I didn't say to script the beam fire :) That's something you might want to do for mission building purposes but when simply testing the strength of both ships I think leaving it to the AI to fire is probably more fair unless you do a really good job with the scripting.
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Yeah... sorry about that.
@Stratcomm: I just checked A Lion At The Door, the Dashor had 6,000 Vasudans on it.
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I always thought that number seemed quite excessive when compared to the destroyers, which are maybe ten times as large, carry fighters and generally serve as command hubs (while the corvettes are warships more than anything else), but still have only 10000.
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Yeah... sorry about that.
@Stratcomm: I just checked A Lion At The Door, the Dashor had 6,000 Vasudans on it.
Good catch. Yes, the 6000 number is the correct one. he high figure has been cited repeatedly as a reason that FS2 ships require tons of personel for weapon and energy systems, since that's basically what a Corvette is.
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The crew number for destroyers (and especially the Colossus) always seemed like very little to me. Heh... in Freespace 1 when the GTC Orff, Fenris class, was destroyed you got this in the debreifing:
The GTC Orff was destroyed during your watch. Dozens of lives were lost due to your poor performance. This catastrophe will surely result in an increased Vasudan presence in this system.
The idea a ship the size of a Ticonderoga class cruiser has only dozens of crew members is hilarious.
Edit:
Does anyone know of a mod with a MGreen beam like beam?
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I always thought that number seemed quite excessive when compared to the destroyers, which are maybe ten times as large, carry fighters and generally serve as command hubs (while the corvettes are warships more than anything else), but still have only 10000.
Well, if you look at modern warships there's actually a tendency for gun turrets to use more crew than the equivalent are for fighters on a carrier.
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The GTC Orff was destroyed during your watch. Dozens of lives were lost due to your poor performance. This catastrophe will surely result in an increased Vasudan presence in this system.
The idea a ship the size of a Ticonderoga class cruiser has only dozens of crew members is hilarious.
Perhaps the non essential crew was evacuated for the duration of the repairs. 12 dudes at the bridge, 12 in engineering making repairs. The next dozen can man the turrets (if we assume they need gunners). Depending on how many dozens fit in to "dozens", there might be 10 or so people strolling around the ship at their leisure. So we have something from 20 to 50 people onboard... I can buy that. Considering the ship was sitting there doing nothing.
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Yeah, I guess that makes sense. That mission was kind of messed up it doesn't even mention the Orff is disabled.
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Or it could be am etaphor...
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A Metaphor? But how?
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It could be that the Orff was evacuated, except for the bridge crew and repair teams. Or that the rest of the crew was standing by in escape pods. (:wtf: since the Hermes is too big and only holds 20, but whatever) Or maybe a few dozen people is all the GTA expected to lose when a cruiser was destroyed. FS1 isn't known to be the most coherent game ever created.
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Edit:
Does anyone know of a mod with a MGreen beam like beam?
I think there are 4 'green' beams. The SGreen (small green), the BGreen (big green), BFGreen (big ****ing green), and the plain old Green beam.
EDIT: I just checked the tables. It does even less damage than the SGreen.
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Or the GTA was so stretched post-Thresher that they only had a skeleton crew manning their warships?
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No the green beam does less damage per time while firing, it has a sustained damage potential similar to the SRed, but it's a slasher, no none of the beams in FS2 are sutible, I know that, I mean in terms of MODs.
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Okay, it's fairly obvious who won out, most people actually prefer the Deimos (like me). From the conversations creeping up I was thinking the Moloch would be the favorite, followed by the Sobek.
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It could be that the Orff was evacuated, except for the bridge crew and repair teams. Or that the rest of the crew was standing by in escape pods. (:wtf: since the Hermes is too big and only holds 20, but whatever) Or maybe a few dozen people is all the GTA expected to lose when a cruiser was destroyed. FS1 isn't known to be the most coherent game ever created.
That brings up an interesting point, the tech room says that all modern warships are installed with escape pods, but in any mission that escape pods must be protected, there are no more than 5(ish). Doesn't seem like a large enough number to evacuate even a small portion of the crew on any ship.
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You just need to read a little more carefully:
Freespace 2 Tech Data:
The GTEP Hermes escape pod is now standard equipment on every GTVA warship of cruiser size or larger. Each ship has several escape pods magnetically coupled to airlocks scattered around the ship's outer hull. Not intended for whole-crew evacuations, the Hermes has space for up to 20 crew members. Each pod is propelled by a small fusion engine, enough to remove the pod from the immediate vicinity of an exploding warship. It is also capable of subspace jumps.
Bizzare if you think about it, the Hermes only saved ~1% of the Galatea's crew.
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Ahh, I see. Must make for very interesting emergency procedures.
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You have to wonder how they choose who gets off.
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I'm guessing it's a first come-first serve basis.
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My guess is intelligence, command, and other key personell. Not joe-shmoe the lifepod technician. If you can't save everyone, save the important people first. The whole "go down with the ship" idea is noble enough, sure, but it's strategically very stupid as you lose your best commanders too quickly that way.
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My guess would be whoever carries the guns.
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Admirals Wolf, Wallace (ST), and Petrach, didn't leave on escape pods.
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The whole "go down with the ship" idea is noble enough, sure, but it's strategically very stupid as you lose your best commanders too quickly that way.
I suppose it is a matter of pride, honour and duty to the captains. They are responsible for the ship, so it is their job to save it. They are responsible for the safety of their crew, so it is their job to see that as many crew mambers as possible are saved. But people like the top secret SOC 6 star general guy, Mr. President and the Vasudan with the secret Fish and Headz stew recipe are vital to the alliance, but not to the function of the ship. Nor do they have any responsibilities aboard the ship. So they are the ones that would be stuffed in to life pods first (and launched outside amidst the swarming Shivans).
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Does the ship have to have a fighterbay in order to launch escape pods? That would mean no evac for the poor corvettes and cruisers :(
EDIT: Reading the tech database, it would seem that escape pods are launched from the hull. I've never seen it in-game except with regard to launching from a destroyer's fighterbay.
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How many times you have seen a ship that the player isn't protecting, but has even slight chance of attempting evacuation? Hostile ships are destroyed quickly by uber-beamz-salvo-omgh or killer-bomb-swarmerzoik, so they rarely have time to evacuate after the situation becomes hopeless.
It can be faked by havig the escapepods appear next to the ship at appropriate time. But mission designers don't really bother with those kinds of things, exept if the ship has some greater effect on plot. It is sad, but lack of immersion always is.
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Part of it is that there are very real limitations on just making escape pods appear. Even with spawning and create-ship, we still have the problem of the pods just popping into existance unless they are launched from a fighterbay. When it was important in the retail campaign, a bay was added to the model.
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Part of it is that there are very real limitations on just making escape pods appear. Even with spawning and create-ship, we still have the problem of the pods just popping into existance unless they are launched from a fighterbay.
Player will not notice if a FREDer puts some effort in it.
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Yeah, well, try to do that well in code. That's really the issue.