Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TrashMan on June 01, 2006, 08:56:45 am
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Browsing this forums for years now some lack of proper civil behaviour during debates has caught my attention. I have been in some of those activly, and in some mearly an observer.
The first thing that bothers me that some people think themselves the keepers of the true Freespace knowledge. While there are a lot of us with good knowledge of the lore, the problem is when they treat their personal interpretations or theories as the absolute truth...
I'll start with a example:
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NOTE - the following example is from the battleship discussion as it's the only one I could recall at short notice that shows nicely what I'm talking about. This is not an attempt to revive that debate - I've said all that needs to be said on that subject
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In that debate someone (can't remember who exactly and I'm too lazy to check, so let's jsut say The Other Guy - or TOG), using canon numbers from the game came to a conclusion.
Looking at the size and HP number of terran ship he concluded that the armor increase is smaller the bigger the ship is - or in other words that the armor is limited by ships size and thus bigger ships can't have as much armor. So he concluded that there can't exist a destroyer-sized ship with the armor-size ratio of the deimos.
Now his conlusion is logical and there are really no errors in it...however...
My interpretation of those numbers was that the ship were specificly designed for different purposes - and as such they have differnt capabilities. Cruisers and corvettes are designed as close combat warships so they have smaller rooms, more bulkheads and thicker armor - which all result in a bigger structural integrity increase than armor alone - it's the whole design.
This conclusion is allso logical and makes sense..
So what's the problem? We have two different theories, both derived from the same numbers and both make sense. The problem is that I never claimed my theory to be the correct one - I claimed it be a possible one, and as such, that the possibility of existance of such ship is there.
TOG on the other hand claimed his theory the only true one, taking it as cannon and basicly acusing me of trying to create "TrashManverse.. or whatever.."..
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The point? You can't attack another person for simply having a different (but vaible) THEORY.
The other problem is charachter asasination (and I feel a lot of it will come once I post it). It's a cheap trick employed by some forum members when they can't win a debate trough arguments, so they throw dirt at the guy holding hte other oppinion.
The usual accuasations are of childish behavior, inability to face truth/reality (AKA - MY OPPINION), bigotry, fanatissm with a idea or whatever else they can think of.
The purpose of this is to deavalute the contect of the persons posts while at the same time make their own sound truer. Sometimes this is done subtly (like a frindly warning or joke) and it then builds up..
Either way, such behaviour is not productive and very rude to say it mildely. This threads purpose is to serve as a reminder to those forums members who acted this way allready to pay attention to what they write and as a warning to future debate goers of the things they might encounter.
Stay frosty :D
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acusing me of trying to create "TrashManverse.. or whatever.."..
What your your core world be called?
Trashmanverse,....... Theres a mod in its own right..
Good points above by the way. I concur wholeheartedly.
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You can't dictate the rules of discussion just because you don't like the conclusions drawn.
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You can't dictate the rules of discussion just because you don't like the conclusions drawn.
True.
It also seems odd that TrashMan should be telling us how to behave in a debate when he's actually the one spouting out stuff like "You jsut don't get it do you..." or "Oh, for the love of God."
I've hardly ever noticed a lack of civility except when people who have a history of being uncivil (Cobra, peci, et. al.) join the discussion.
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"Salutes the days of Setekh" :(
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Basically this is a thinly veiled attempt by Trashman to try claim that his view is valid when he can't back it up. :rolleyes: He talks about character assassination but what is this thread except an attack on Aldo, Stratcomm and I for daring to point out the canon flaws in his theories.
And I'll thank you to remember that I invented the Trashmanvese name when you attempted to claim that the maxim's range was too high and that it was therefore a mistake by :v: and shouldn't be used as canon evidence in discussions.
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maxim's range was too high and that it was therefore a mistake by :v:
TM Said this?,............... For Shame, :V: being non-canon, That sort of thinking will destroy the universe. Still i spose everyones got a right to free type, "Word of Mouse TM@Dekker 01/06/2006" if you will.
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Basically this is a thinly veiled attempt by Trashman to try claim that his view is valid when he can't back it up. :rolleyes: He talks about character assassination but what is this thread except an attack on Aldo, Stratcomm and I for daring to point out the canon flaws in his theories.
And I'll thank you to remember that I invented the Trashmanvese name when you attempted to claim that the maxim's range was too high and that it was therefore a mistake by :v: and shouldn't be used as canon evidence in discussions.
I thought it was TrashSpace?
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Nope. It was definitely Trashmanverse (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,28863.msg614522.html#msg614522). :D
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I believe the forum guidelines (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,37583.0.html) also cover debates quite well. Including posts of bigoted nature and personal attacks are not tolerated, such posts which have happened on or after January 2nd should be reported. Any such posts that were posted before should be forgotten and not to be brought up, otherwise old wounds will not heal.
karajorma, as I am uneducated about the discussion you are referring to, I do not judge either of you, but please do not let this thread delve into bigotry and personal attacks.
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Bigotry?
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I wish the GTVA had a Pink Bunny defense system............
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karajorma, as I am uneducated about the discussion you are referring to, I do not judge either of you, but please do not let this thread delve into bigotry and personal attacks.
Where the hell are you getting bigotry or personal attacks from? :confused:
I've done neither. If anyone is guilty of an attack it is Trashman who by making this thread (deliberately divorced from and not linking to the original thread so as to avoid anyone getting a fair perception of the events which precipitated it) has managed to create a story which paints him as the victim and Aldo, Stratcomm and I as unreasonable.
Instead I linked to the post which coined the Trashmanverse name so that people could make up their own mind about who was being unfair.
I wish the GTVA had a Pink Bunny defense system............
The how Dave Baranac might have created Freespace thing is funnier :) Gotta thank Trashman for making me look up that thread. I'd forgotten about writting that :)
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I believe i am going to play it swis'ala WWII and remain complicitly neutral..
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Where the hell are you getting bigotry or personal attacks from? :confused:
Nowhere so far, but from the posts I did get the impression it could get into that, which hopefully won't happen. Then again, I have never seen you posting anything of such nature but I don't read every post either, so... yeah, just don't get that far even if provoked. :)
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I think Aldo, Stratcomm and I have always managed to handle Trashman's attitude in a civil manner despite his claims of persecution. I see no reason to end that now.
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Does anyone else remember the days when we used to be friends?
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Bah. Old timers often look back to the golden age with rose tinted spectacles. I always hated you. Right from the start :p
Seriously though I doubt we were ever all friends. I don't think there's really any more animosity now than their was when I first joined. In fact most of us are a lot friendlier to most of the regular people than when we first came here since we've gotten to know each other so well.
Even despite the inadvisability of starting this thread I bear Trashman no animous. If he were to post a FRED problem I knew the answer to I'd still go out of my way to solve it for him.
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I believe I am guilty of that sort of behavior, I apologize to everyone involved.
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Bah. Old timers often look back to the golden age with rose tinted spectacles. I always hated you. Right from the start :p
Seriously though I doubt we were ever all friends. I don't think there's really any more animosity now than their was when I first joined. In fact most of us are a lot friendlier to most of the regular people than when we first came here since we've gotten to know each other so well.
Even despite the inadvisability of starting this thread I bear Trashman no animous. If he were to post a FRED problem I knew the answer to I'd still go out of my way to solve it for him.
Oh hush, I know how much you loved me...don't make me release the videos ;) :p
And I'm not saying we were all friends, it was a half-sarcastic remark...it was more along the lines of me bemoaning the expansion of HLP.
But admit it, we had some great arguments back then. Remember that time when...I think it was Stryke and someone else had the flame match in old english? :D
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Heh, freinds can disagree and still be friends, in a way, that's part of the definition, because you disagree with everyone in the end, so those that stick around afterwards are more likely to be friends ;)
Edit : I suppose I should do something to moderate this, I've been watching that discussion thread for a while, but because it was between people who have been having these sorts of discussion for several years without fall-out, I thought it would be the same case.
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Mmm. Some of us like being argumentative wee bastards, BTW. Keeps the work day entertaining. :D
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I cant but help feel somewhat responsible for the whole battleship thread i believe I started such a thread wich lead to some hightemperature remarks. Sorry about that! Also although I "hate" Aldo for being so rigind sometimes even when he is not suposed to be I find his arguement quite usefull sometime in helping me not to stray too far off the FS universe.(notice i have put the word hate between " " ) .
Still I do believe sometimes the way the arguements are posted tend to be somewhat hars especialy if you are a noobster like me. But then again I have the experience of the VBB before i landed here. So in the end you tend to see no harm was ment !
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On a good note..
HLP is a great sorce of imformation on just about anything..
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Except the Jade Monkey, The Aincent Jade Monkey Of Olde England.............
"Whooooooo, BEWARE !!!".......
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Basically this is a thinly veiled attempt by Trashman to try claim that his view is valid when he can't back it up. :rolleyes: He talks about character assassination but what is this thread except an attack on Aldo, Stratcomm and I for daring to point out the canon flaws in his theories.
And I'll thank you to remember that I invented the Trashmanvese name when you attempted to claim that the maxim's range was too high and that it was therefore a mistake by :v: and shouldn't be used as canon evidence in discussions.
I did back it up..and my view is a valid THEORY.
About that maxim thing - I never claimed that [V] made a mistake - I claimed it is highly POSSIBLE that they did, given the far out stats of hte weapon.
Again, the main difference in discussions is that I, unlike you, allways take into account the possibiltiy that I could be wrong and hte other guy is right - something you apparently never even consider....
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I've done neither. If anyone is guilty of an attack it is Trashman who by making this thread (deliberately divorced from and not linking to the original thread so as to avoid anyone getting a fair perception of the events which precipitated it) has managed to create a story which paints him as the victim and Aldo, Stratcomm and I as unreasonable.
Not really...everone is a victim really. I myself have sometimes employed "dirty tactics", something I am ashamed of now. Discussion and debates tend to get that waywhen people get overly defensive or agreesive, typing things before they think them over or even subconsiously.
So I am guilty just as much (roughly :D) as everyone else - but at least I acknowledge it and don't dismiss the other guy that fast.
So for those of you who were brushed aside or offended I apologize...
And to set things straight - I have great respect for all the forum members, especially the ones I had debates with. I never considered them my enemies in any way.
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Oh, stop bloody moaning.
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cute :drevil:
I didn't know you cared Aldo ;7
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:hopping: :hopping: :hopping: :hopping:
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
Whats all this about then?
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I want a bunny can i have a bunny Colonel....???
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By all means, Just "Copy Bunny
into your signature to help him on his way to world domination!"
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NO! Do not do it! Bunnies are a threat to the plans of my people to take over the world. Thats why Finns shoot bunnies on sight, and train their freocious attack dogs to hunt them. Bunnies area threat to the Finnish way of life!
(\_/) ._____,
(O.o) ยค---- |_____|
(> < ) )|_|
(Nokia is father, Nokia is mother. Trust Nokia)
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Trash: You lost a couple of arguments. Bloody deal with it and stop moaning about how people don't respect your "theories" when all you can do is ask for completely unnecessary percentages and say how Freespace would be so much better if you had had a hand in making it.
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Subliminal Nokia messaging is more evil than killing bunnies...
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Thread locked, seeing as everyone seems to have said their piece.
All I'll say is that, if you don't agree with someone regarding FS2 Canon, then don't take it personally. We all have differing opinions here, I for one don't give a Monkey's how long it takes to make an Orion, for example, but I do understand that some people do, but lets bear in mind that this is a fictional game people, don't take it all so seriously :P