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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vyper on June 11, 2006, 05:21:35 am

Title: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: vyper on June 11, 2006, 05:21:35 am
Quote
The suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, amount to acts of war, the US military says.

The camp commander said the two Saudis and a Yemeni were "committed" and had killed themselves in "an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5068606.stm

Seriously, they can whine that it draws negative publicity but declaring a prisoner suicide an act of war is the height of orwellian thinking...
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: aldo_14 on June 11, 2006, 05:29:34 am
I'd piss myself laughing if it wasn't all rather tragic and a disgrace to humanitarian law.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Rictor on June 11, 2006, 05:45:24 am
"Those bastards! How dare they remove themselves from our highly engaging and widely respcted company. Why just last week, Khalid bin Mohammed al Zahar over in Block C said we were great conversationalists and emmited a pleasant smell! Oh this is it, now we begin the war in earnest!"

I guess some people would rather leave this Earth rather than be forced to suffer Americans every day.  ;) ;)

Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 11, 2006, 05:47:39 am
Seriously, they can whine that it draws negative publicity but declaring a prisoner suicide an act of war is the height of orwellian thinking...

He's right, though, you realize. It's exactly what the camp commander said it is.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: AlphaOne on June 11, 2006, 05:49:45 am
actualy who knows the exact reasons they comited suicide. For all we know it was a much better alternative then what they posibly could of endured there.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: aldo_14 on June 11, 2006, 05:51:19 am
It's probably a bluff.  They're hoping Bin Ladin will say "Ah!  I'll show those infidel bastards what real sucide is!".

actualy who knows the exact reasons they comited suicide. For all we know it was a much better alternative then what they posibly could of endured there.

No ****, sherlock?

He's right, though, you realize. It's exactly what the camp commander said it is.

Does that mean every prisoner who commits suicide in a normal prison is also declaring war on the state?  Even the clinically depressed ones?
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: AlphaOne on June 11, 2006, 05:54:46 am
umm does that actualy mean that if say a prisoner comited suicide a couple of months ago in a romanian prison (it was a romanian prisoner) he was declaring war on the country? Doubt it.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 11, 2006, 05:56:52 am
He's right, though, you realize. It's exactly what the camp commander said it is.

Does that mean every prisoner who commits suicide in a normal prison is also declaring war on the state?  Even the clinically depressed ones?

But these aren't normal prisoners in a normal prison, now, are they? It was a ****ty public relations move to say it up front, but the camp commander is right.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Mefustae on June 11, 2006, 06:26:24 am
This smells like conspiracy. Think about it, torture isn't yeilding results fast enough, so they 'suicide' a few inmates they know not to hold any valuable information [or that have already been milked] to show the other less talkative inmates they really mean business.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: aldo_14 on June 11, 2006, 06:27:46 am

But these aren't normal prisoners in a normal prison, now, are they? It was a ****ty public relations move to say it up front, but the camp commander is right.

Yes, that's true.  none have the prospect of a fair trial, none have any legal rights, and more than a few will have been kidnapped and sold-for-bounty by the Northern Alliance.

Oh, and they're routinely tortured.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Janos on June 11, 2006, 07:47:34 am
He's right, though, you realize. It's exactly what the camp commander said it is.

Does that mean every prisoner who commits suicide in a normal prison is also declaring war on the state?  Even the clinically depressed ones?

But these aren't normal prisoners in a normal prison, now, are they?

So what?
Quote
It was a ****ty public relations move to say it up front, but the camp commander is right.
Prove it.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Roanoke on June 11, 2006, 08:43:36 am
Quote
"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."


lol, "asymmetrical warfare"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Mars on June 11, 2006, 08:47:26 am
Lesson #1551210230021:  If you make people want to die, they will find a way to make it happen.

(And these are just the ones we know about.)
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: an0n on June 11, 2006, 10:35:20 am
The point you all seem to be failing to grasp is that it was neither a purely emotional decision, nor a strategic one.

They ****ing hated being there, saw no way out and figured they might as well score some points. So they killed themselves hoping to draw more negative press against the US Govt.

Basically, they acted out of hopeless spite.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: vyper on June 11, 2006, 11:04:47 am
Or perhaps just out of sheer hopelessness? Doesn't suicide mean no afterlife-paradise in their religion?
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: aldo_14 on June 11, 2006, 11:07:44 am
Or perhaps just out of sheer hopelessness? Doesn't suicide mean no afterlife-paradise in their religion?

I think so.  I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot of people citing that the Koran ranks suicide as an unforgiveable sin, regardless of the cause or manner.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: aldo_14 on June 11, 2006, 12:33:32 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5069230.stm

A top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention".

Colleen Graffy told the BBC the deaths were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary


Well, I guess know we know - again - the US doesn't regard these people as actual innocent-until-proven-guilty humans.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: achtung on June 11, 2006, 12:53:49 pm
The point you all seem to be failing to grasp is that it was neither a purely emotional decision, nor a strategic one.

They ****ing hated being there, saw no way out and figured they might as well score some points. So they killed themselves hoping to draw more negative press against the US Govt.

Basically, they acted out of hopeless spite.

:yes:

I was going to say something like that.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Deepblue on June 11, 2006, 01:30:47 pm
Do we really have proof of torture at Gitmo? If there was, I think we would see something similar to Abu Ghraib, which we have'nt.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: an0n on June 11, 2006, 02:17:46 pm
I find it terrifyingly amusing that they're ascribing negative, pro-terrorism connotation to actions which are at 'worst' mere suicide and at 'best' the very foundations of the American Revolution.

The whole reason for America breaking from the Empire was they figured they'd rather fight and die than be subjugated by a system of governance they could never hope to influence.

Gotta love the parallels.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Mars on June 11, 2006, 02:30:36 pm
Wonder how long before the smart people in America have another reveloution. I'm not feeling like I can make any impact in the governement right now.

Looks around nervously in case the Department of Homeland Security is bushing down the door to take me to a secret torture base.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Shade on June 11, 2006, 02:34:26 pm
Don't worry. They won't come until you're asleep.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: an0n on June 11, 2006, 03:08:24 pm
They're like Santa.

They know the second you fall asleep. Then they land on your roof, break into your house and beat you with clubs till you stop screaming.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Mars on June 11, 2006, 04:24:45 pm
It worries me how much ammusment this thought seems to be giving you an0n.  :nervous:

 :)

I'll post a desperate message for help when I hear them in the fireplace, one that ends mid-word.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Flipside on June 11, 2006, 04:54:32 pm
Can't win can they....

'Omg! he killed an innocent civilian!'
'Who?'
''Himself!'
'But I thought he was here cos he was a Terrorist?'
'Yes, but...er....the Terrorist part of him turned on the rest and killed it! Yes! That's what happened!'
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Rictor on June 11, 2006, 05:19:34 pm
More like

"Oh God Abdul, if I have to hear that guard talk about American Idol one more time I'll fukcing off myself! No, I know it's a sin, I don't care! He never stops! I knew we would be tortured, but this is simply sadism. Just starting cutting off my fingers or something, I would welcome it, anything is preferable to this! "
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: an0n on June 11, 2006, 06:08:20 pm
Torture is being forced to hear about it, without getting to drool over that McPhee chick.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Turambar on June 11, 2006, 06:10:34 pm
no, torture is being forced to listen to this competition to see who's better at singing music that sucks.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: an0n on June 11, 2006, 06:26:20 pm
That's why the TV has a mute button.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 11, 2006, 07:30:47 pm
So what?

So if you dismiss the circumstances, I'll just dismiss you out of hand. Because clearly you're delusional if you think they don't matter.

Prove it.

I don't have to prove it; it's already been proved. This thread is one proof in and of itself. It worked. Perversely, it might not have worked had the camp commander not told the truth about what it was.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Flipside on June 11, 2006, 08:22:01 pm
That's circular thinking. The problem is not that these two may have commited suicide to further their own political cause. The point is that commiting suicide, whether it was depression, attempting to hide secrets or simply a political ploy along the lines of a hunger strike, is not an act of War and describing it as such was really rather silly.

Politically, it would have been wiser to say 'It's entirely possible these people killed themselves to prevent giving out information that could have saved lives.'. Taking a passive stance and implying that by killing themselves they have endangered other people would have swayed support more in their direction. It's more or less the same as saying 'It's an act of War', but not trying to define it as such, which is what has caused the main problem.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: an0n on June 11, 2006, 08:50:12 pm
What he means is they killed themselves so everyone would go "Oooh, look how mean the Americans are."
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Flipside on June 11, 2006, 08:53:34 pm
Exactly, and by defining it as an act of War, rather than simply saying, 'Well, they must have had something to hide' would have been wiser than stamping their feet and saying 'We're not mean!', because you are immediately drawing attention to the whole situation. Misdirection beats denial every single time ;)
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: aldo_14 on June 12, 2006, 04:23:29 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5070514.stm

Quote

One of the three men who committed suicide at the US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay was due to be released - but did not know it, says a US lawyer.  Mark Denbeaux, who represents some of the foreign detainees, told the BBC's World Today programme the man was among 141 prisoners scheduled for release.
...
The Pentagon named the prisoner who had been recommended for transfer as 30-year-old Saudi Arabian Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi.
...
Utaybi had been declared a "safe person, free to be released" but the US needed a country to send him to, Professor Denbeaux said.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Jetmech Jr. on June 12, 2006, 04:35:22 am
Wow, aldo...that's ****ing depressing.
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: Flipside on June 12, 2006, 04:38:34 am
Indeed, wasn't there an item not that long ago about a riot because the soldiers allegedly wanted to search the Quoran's for illegally stored medicine to prevent a suicide attempt or something?
Title: Re: Detainees top selves; US offended
Post by: aldo_14 on June 12, 2006, 04:47:53 am
Indeed, wasn't there an item not that long ago about a riot because the soldiers allegedly wanted to search the Quoran's for illegally stored medicine to prevent a suicide attempt or something?

Probably. To be fair, in the context of a prison system, it's wholly understandable and indeed reasonable to have that sort of search.  It's the arbitrary detention of innocent (until proven guilty at the very least) people for years on end that grates. 

Any prison would have suicides or attempts to some degree, but the issue is IMO that everyone there is, in legal terms, innocent and being held in breach of our basic system/s of justice.  That, and the strong evidence of torture (which to me would make any case pretty much untriable).