Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: KillMeNow on November 06, 2001, 07:52:00 pm
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what your opinions people?
My favs Lightwave
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Lightwave...
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I have much more experience with 3ds MAX.
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3D Studio Max is my favourite so far. Used Maya before but I didn't use it much, so not much experience in it. But its tools are fun to use.
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Personally LW looks better (interface wise) and appears to be more recognised (and better for rendering), so that'd be my choice.
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modeling - 3ds
renders - lw
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3D studio MAX has one of the best poly modellers around and also has a very good materials/shaders editor.
For rendering i use a 3dsmax/Mentalray combination..usually ill do the geometry in mentalray as the kind of scenes i use make the scanline renderer stand still. For glow effects ill then re-render the elements in MAX scanline and composite them using Digital Fusion (like abode premier but far better...faster)
Softimage XSI is the nads for charecter animation and it has SEAMLESS integration with mentalray. If you can get your head round the texturing projections and the rendertree (it uses a node-based flow chart to make materials) you can do sublime scenes. It takes alot of learning however.
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Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
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This is a debate that could go on until the end of time. It all has to do with personal preference. Personally, I use 3dsmax and it suits my needs just fine. Does everything I want it to do, and more.
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
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Blender.... value for money (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Or a program I used ages ago called simply 3d - used it to make footie stadiums. Really easy, although not particularly powerful.
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its funny i been hanging around some of the real 3d artist forums - general consensus is lightwave is easier to learn than max and is the best poly modeler but lacks certain features - max is considered to be a terrible renderer and a steep learning curve but and lacks some of the features of lightwave but has the others lightwave lacks maya well i admit i not found a maya board but everyone seems to think maya sucks - far to steep learning curve worse renderer than max by a long shot and buggy as hell but if you know what your doing a very capable peice of kit indeed - they were teh main players but cnema 4d or somethign like that and softimage got mentions too
i got to admit i got max and lightwave and max its got a terrible interface - lightwave is very simple once you under one or two rules and its also the most capable package out of the box - and it has a top grade renderer
but all this is kinda influenced by my personal preference but i thik thats a fair assesment
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I've noticed none of the Truespace programs made the cut (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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I told you that It ("http://www.geocities.com/jskgames/home.html") would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...
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I wonder why?
*cough*crapUI*cough*
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To be honest, I found the 3dsmax interface pretty easy to learn. Then again, I have been known to be a fast learner when it comes to learning how to use software. (seriously)
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
"Oh and Kazan - you have some nice rocks" - Thunder
Material Defender Studios ("http://www.mdstudios.f2s.com/index.html")
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Originally posted by Thorn:
Lightwave...
how big (megs) is the lightwave program? if anything where can i gain a copy other than the w-are-z sites in the world free or not? just curious before i go warez hunting...
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MD-2389: what about word? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
How do you all afford these programs?
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Any of you know what I can do with Amapi 4.5?
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I like TS's UI better than 3DS, TS is just got Kay-rApy UV manipulation, and kills your mesh if it gets a hole.
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Bobboau, bringing you products that work.............. in theory
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yeah, what he said.
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What DID he say?
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TS is the easiest to use. LW is the best renderer.
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Originally posted by Bobboau:
I like TS's UI better than 3DS, TS is just got Kay-rApy UV manipulation, and kills your mesh if it gets a hole.
Origionally posted by jonskowitz
yeah, what he said.
Origionally posted by LAW ENFORCER
What DID he say?
I'm not kidding. When I first started using TS I couldn't stand it (probably because my first introduction to that series of programs was the beta version of TS 5, YUCK). Since then I've bought TS 3.1 and the more I use it the more I like it. You really get a lot of good features for $100 (US). The only thing it seems to be lacking (that I miss anyway) is the ability to create lense flare effects.
...the occasional corrupted mesh and memory leakage tends to leave people a little cold to it too (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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I told you that It ("http://www.geocities.com/jskgames/home.html") would be done by November, well, mostly anyway...
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We aint saying it aint good - were saying its crap. Totaly diffrent.
Its a 3D editor with rendering and powerful features - this is not a rubbish program but compared to others its a bit on the bad side (I have 3.1 SE, of a disc got TS2 before on a disc so no need for 3.1)
Do you do all you modeling in that program?
I use milkshape3D which is a low poly Half-life editor - it has no fance features apart from extrude. Thats it. I still get the models done. (about 80 so far) but it cost me $30, now I am gonna go buy a game and a site registration for my GRDLA site!! whoo hoo.
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Best renderer? Depends on the engine you've got installed - Ray Gun, Mental Ray, Brazil... I love Brazil. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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i used to light ts 4.1 but and when i first started with lightwave the interface was abit scary but once you dig just afew cm below the surface it is far mroe user friendly than ts and far more capable - as for max i personally dont like it - interface is horrible and apparently some of the new features in r4 which people are ouuuuhh and ahhhhhhhing over have been in lightwave for years
i cant say much about texturing i not done much of that i do know that for along time it was lightwaves weakest point uv mapping was jsut non exisistant - obviously thats not the case now but how good it is i dont know i model stuff and i can apply colours even ones with some textures and stuff but never uv mapped it just applied them how they were
although alot of people like max but its statistics are flawed well not whole story anyway - year alot of games development companys will use it but most will have other packages too and use them for different things - just discreet doesn't mention that and newteks marketing department must be on vacation - i enquired about buying lightwave 7 (educational version cause will be sueful at college and then to upgrade to commerical version wont cost as much when i start using it to make money should that day ever come anyways...) and they still haven't gotten back to me - and they dont advertise much at all but anyway - people who are using ts i think would be more comfortable with lightwave than max - at least i found that but once they are they will be very relauctant to use truespace again - i have basically stopped making new ships for freespace becasue i dont like using ts anymore
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER:
MD-2389: what about word? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
How do you all afford these programs?
Word 97 has the same interface (with the exception of a few icon differences here and there) as Corel WordPerfect 8. Word 2000 has the exact same interface as Word97, only with IE style toolbars and stuff.
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
"Oh and Kazan - you have some nice rocks" - Thunder
Material Defender Studios ("http://www.mdstudios.f2s.com/index.html")
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I agree with MD-2389, it's all got to to with personal preference. For example, I hate the UI in Truespace. But Bobboau likes it.
I use 3DS MAX and I think it's great. Easy to use and easy to learn. The UI is great and powerful, if you don't like the UI you can make your own.
Pez
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The lightwave renderer is terrible. Get a grip.
As far as i'm aware it uses per-face radiosity (such as lightscape) to do its Physically correct lighting. This is slow as hell plus the mesh you use has to be very tight indeed.
As far as learning curve goes..maybe ill write a review article or something
Lightwave-
Alot of people like it, I hate its' guts.
Reasons for this are;
Its in two parts..i dont like having to switch applications to animate my models.
It has a slow renderer, plus the results look quite samey.
I hate the interface..i loaded it up for about 2 minutes, looked at it then shut it down..never used it since.
Maya;
Damn hi end package and is scriptable and moddable to buggery and back.
Downers -Subdivision Surfaces sucks
Renderer sucks (BADLY)
Cant make sense of NLA system (trax)
Interface is stringy
Needs PRman and a team of TDs
Uppers -Sublime NURBS
Hypershade is powerful once you work it out (never for me (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Good dynamics and V.good particles
Very stable
Rapid OpenGL performance
TrueSpace
You can get good results from it but dont compare a grape to an orange..its designed for a different user base to the hi-end apps.
Blender
See above..even though the feature list looks impressive
3Dsmax
This is my program of choice simply because ive been using it for 4 years.
Uppers - Excellent polymodeller
Easy to use materials editor
Fast Scanline renderer
Plugin Extensibility
MAX is fast, beleive it or not.
Good bones system in R4
Downers -Decent GI/radiosity renderers cost a packet
Scanline renderer stands still on huge geometry counts (500,000+)
Poor NURBS support
Interface *looking* long in the tooth - its still very intuitive to use, however.
Softimage XSI
This is what i *WANT* to use, even though its very hard to learn
Uppers - Brilliant rendering (99.9% of the features in mentalray are completely integrated with XSI)
Excellent polymodeller (better than MAX imo)
Most sophisticated animation available (IK/FK mixing, best NLA system on the market, excellent envelopes editing etc.)
Looks damned smooth
Can script in ANY language (VBA, C++, java!)
Sublime Subdivision Surfs (*any* poly object can also be a subdee!)
Downers -Should have come out 18 months ago
Particles buggy (occasionally)
Slower than Soft|3D
NURBS could be better
Needs Fur
Rendertree (material editor) VERY hard to get your head around
Texture projections hard to use
You need to do a workshop or a softimage XSI training course to work out how to use the damned thing (there goes my student loan for the summer..)
I hope this clears some stuff up.
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Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
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i beent alking to some people who use maya and they say while its mostly stable it can be for certain things be buggy as hell - modeling in it is not that easy at all too
max everyone over rates max - max 4 sucks - like you with lightwave i opened it up looked at it for 2 mins closed it and never looked at it since - and its sooooo much harder to learn than lightwave its not funny
and if you guys say max is easy then lightwave must have the best interface ever
lightwaves renderer is nop notch - its poly modeling is great - only area than needs work is the dynamics but even they are god if not perfect- i would say anything that can be done in max can be done in lightwave - only thing lightwave lacks that max has is true nurbs but i think sub-patching is probally better for most things and you can always do splines
lightwave rules - ignour the somewhat dull appearance of teh interface casue whiles its dull its super easy to use jsut learn the short cuts anyway its faster
and lightwave 7b rendering is alot faster than previous editions and the end result is great
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Okay guys, let's keep it friendly (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Here's a question for you lot - which platforms does Maya run on? I think it's NT/2k/XP, but I'm not entirely sure - any thoughts? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Setekh (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Originally posted by KillMeNow:
i beent alking to some people who use maya and they say while its mostly stable it can be for certain things be buggy as hell - modeling in it is not that easy at all too
max everyone over rates max - max 4 sucks - like you with lightwave i opened it up looked at it for 2 mins closed it and never looked at it since - and its sooooo much harder to learn than lightwave its not funny
and if you guys say max is easy then lightwave must have the best interface ever
lightwaves renderer is nop notch - its poly modeling is great - only area than needs work is the dynamics but even they are god if not perfect- i would say anything that can be done in max can be done in lightwave - only thing lightwave lacks that max has is true nurbs but i think sub-patching is probally better for most things and you can always do splines
lightwave rules - ignour the somewhat dull appearance of teh interface casue whiles its dull its super easy to use jsut learn the short cuts anyway its faster
and lightwave 7b rendering is alot faster than previous editions and the end result is great
I have seen LW 5.5 for a moment in it looked like an good 3d app. And I'm sure that the newest LW is also a great 3d app. If it's better that 3DS Max? I don't know. But for me it really doesn't matter. Because when it comes down to being a good modeller or artist it's your mind and imagination that is your best tool.
Pez
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Originally posted by KillMeNow:
i beent alking to some people who use maya and they say while its mostly stable it can be for certain things be buggy as hell - modeling in it is not that easy at all too
max everyone over rates max - max 4 sucks - like you with lightwave i opened it up looked at it for 2 mins closed it and never looked at it since - and its sooooo much harder to learn than lightwave its not funny
and if you guys say max is easy then lightwave must have the best interface ever
lightwaves renderer is nop notch - its poly modeling is great - only area than needs work is the dynamics but even they are god if not perfect- i would say anything that can be done in max can be done in lightwave - only thing lightwave lacks that max has is true nurbs but i think sub-patching is probally better for most things and you can always do splines
lightwave rules - ignour the somewhat dull appearance of teh interface casue whiles its dull its super easy to use jsut learn the short cuts anyway its faster
and lightwave 7b rendering is alot faster than previous editions and the end result is great
that's my exact opposed advice. I opened LW, tried 2/3 things, closed it, never opened it again. Max could be the best because if you don't like ANYTHING, you can change it.
Anyway I won't say it is coz, as I said, I didn't really try LW. How can you DARE saying Max is crap when you didn't even try it? I'm disapointed on this, KMN. Shame on you.
Otherwise,nobody tried povray+moray? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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I'm not a modeler... I've never been into 3D modeling much. But I must say that Cinema4D really opened my eyes (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
In my opinion it's one of the most simple to use 3D modeling softwares I've ever seen, and you can make really high quality work with it.
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ssorry but the whole modifier stack and all that - whiel i know its useful i dont like it personally - you did try and teach me max but on my own without help in half the time i had achieve much more with lightwave and witha little help from retile i can now model some cool stuff although still dont have a clue how to texture other than just proceural texutures but cant do much with just them but anyway i'm sure i'll work it out soon
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the modifier stack in MAX just operates as a construction history. I never use it anyway unless im doing organic/NURMS (subdee) modelling.
And explain this - if Newtek have such an obviously superior product why are they selling it for $2500?
Im not slagging any software off, or i'm trying not to-- I feel a BALANCED viewpoint is very important, but its hard to do when so many people in "the other camp" have their heads stuck up their own arses.
C4D is a very good package but isnt as flexible from what i've heard.
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Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
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thats the thing - basically becasue of better marketing and better finacial backing tehy have been able to basically get loads of people using it so they can then up the price - and i'm not saying that max is bad but everyone jsut assumes its better than lightwave - its not - there are very few thigns you cant do in lightwave that you can do in max - and alot of the thing max does that lightwave does too max uses plugins for
lightwave is a great piece of kit and i think not many give it a fair go
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hmm... the stack... I never use it either. Each time I make a modif, I collapse it, coz I tend to mess up with it when it's about UV mappings.
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I've done a bit through max, but have done more through Lightwave...
For one thing, Max takes up a lot more space on the computer, probably because of its mostly-graphical interface
Another: Lightwave's interface IS better than Max's, don't mistake it for being dull, because those little buttons hold many features
Yet Another: Lightwave is a LOT easier to animate with, mostly because it was COMPLETELY meant for Babylon 5, which is animation(duh) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
While they hold basically the same features, it's easier to get the features out of Lightwave than Max(which you have to dig through all those menus and options)
But this is just my opinion
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The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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bah, the UA pb is a wrong one, both progs are built around shortcuts in fact.
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i'll agree with you there - i use the lightwave shortcuts - far simpler than hunting through menus - however i do use some of the mnu stuff cause you cant rmember every shortcut - but something about max i didn't like - it jsut didn't feel right
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Read the help file.
And if you dont like the defaults plug your own in.
As for menus..at least MAXs arrangement makes sense - try softimage|3D and you'll know what 'orrible layout is!
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Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
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i might try max again someday but for the moment i'm learning lightwave - thats the software i've chosen for now - once i can do everything lightwave has to offer then its just a matter of learn how to do it in another program but i will know how to model essentially thats far better than learning a new package everytime a new one comes out
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ermmm... not quite right there.
Once you learned on a program it is extremely hard to switch to another. Patience has to be more than a virtue there.
I've been messing with 3D anim. for a good part of 12 years now, I think...
I started on Lightwave 4.0 on a 386. hehe watching grass grow was more exciting.
Still the passion was there and I continued to version 7b. I never really looked back. Opened 3D studio max way back, modified and rendered the "Dancing baby" and never opened it again after.
Because of need of terrains which LW sucked at I stumbled on to World Construction set the beta version.
WHOOOAAA! that was it. chaos interpretation of polyrendering was my ticket to realism never seen before and infinity zoom effects!
Using ligtwave to composit the foreground, matching cameras between the two programs I was set!
a lot has happened since then characters came in to the pictures and Lightwave by now at the version 5 was still unable to deliver for me a simple system of manipulate the dreadfull BONES! IK was also hard to understand, so Poser came to be only problem no matching cameras to lightwave. so compositing has to be done very carefully.
Now maya is here NT based only (more stable) needs buckets of ram uses as much open GL you can throw at and renders like crap. renderman is needed for effective times and quality renders, still character creation is fantastic so I use that for character animation.
For particle animation I don't bother with maya too hard the learning curve, Illusion takes care of that with a pretty nifty and sophisticated package.
Final editing of scenes is all done on the avid Xpress for quality and sound processing is often created with soundforge from follies to full soundtrack mixing.
So you might say that I'm a jack of al trades and master of none, but all those application I can use for what I need and the results... well judge for yourself.
The fact that I studied film making and I'm a director as well as a tape editor/cameraman could also be an advantage for me.
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Capt. CougEr!
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Learn to play the Game and you're part of the way there.
Ignore them and you've truly mastered it.[/list]
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i agree with you in prnciple but but but i consider myself more a 3d artist than a user of lightwave - lightwave is just my pencil or brush and the techniques mostly should be transferable from one package to another ( i know that is easier said than done ) - so i'm still a newbie to 3d art hopefully one day i will be professional - att the moment i'm just mking animations - nothing special but experimenting with effects not really puting muvh effort into the modeling or texturing - but i still think practicing greating animations will be useful - am i making any sence???? lol probally not but for now lightwave satisfies my needs sure someday i will find soemthing that i need to use another program for but i'll bet even then if i knew how lightwave will probally be capable of doing - on the other hand i mightbe working with another programs and want to do something i could do in seconds in lightwave but cant in this other package - arghhh ok i really am rambling =)
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In my opinion softimage XSI is a cut above the rest (or will be for Version 2.0)
its quite hard to learn, but since so much of the program is half open source (more or less) and its an entirely new extensible architecture it will pull ahead of the competition (maya) very quickly.
Sure, at the moment there are bugs, not all the features are implemented and the application footprint is quite large, but these will be sorted given another 10 months or so.
Im just sticking with MAX because its the second-most-flexible package out there until I can get on a soft XSI training course.
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Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
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My suggestion get a solid base on lightwave. Especially in lighting. lightwave is legenday for good lighting now . Radiosity and volumetric, very very nice. Radiosity and caustic can lenghten your animation times x10 but the results are stunning.
After you should be able to move on to other programs and platforms. Alies wavefront and Maya on CG I hear is pretty happening.
totally scriptable.
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Capt. CougEr!
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Learn to play the Game and you're part of the way there.
Ignore them and you've truly mastered it.[/list]
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CougEr's 3D anim archives ("http://cazzoo.free.fr/")
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Maya is more directed to character animation, from what I've heard. Is that true?
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yes. I believe the FF movie was made in Maya.
I use gMAX which is like 3DS MAX r4 with the renderer and NURBS support stripped out (and its free). The only bad thing is that it saves as a *.gmax file which is its own file type
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Maya is geared towards Digital Content Creation, charecter animation and particles are its' best points however.
Maya runs on Windows NT-type systems only, no 9x/me. maya also runs on IRIX and macosX
3dsmax is win32 (9x/NT/2k/XP)
SoftXSi is win32/IRIX/Linux (yes guys..it's certified on linux!)
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Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
[This message has been edited by wEvil (edited 11-12-2001).]
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maya should run under XP too...