Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ace Pace on June 25, 2006, 04:15:16 pm
-
So thats where they are (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885848200&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull)
Olmert and [Defense Minister Amir] Peretz that your threats don't frighten us," the leaflet said. "We will surprise you with our new weapons the moment the first soldier sets his foot in the Gaza Strip."
Sandwich, evacuation plans?
-
you spelled "Al-Aqsa" wrong...
-
you spelled "Al-Aqsa" wrong...
I can always spell it in hebrew. I'm not familier with english spelling of local terror groups and Jpost also called it Aksa.
-
And they think that makes Israel any less likely to go into Gaza? Not terribly smart are they? Not to mention that using it against Israeli troops in Gaza would kinda backfire, as they take out a couple of thousand civilians - their own civilians - at the same time. Didn't have much left over for them in the first place, and this certainly doesn't help.
Finally, they of course still have the problem of delivery. Just loading a jar of it onto a rocket won't accomplish much, as it still needs dispersal to do anything serious. Idiots. But then, that's not news.
-
Sh*t. That's seriously bad. If they use ANY sort of WMD against Israel, we'll likely obliterate the place. Which will in turn cause the nations to freak out, take extreme measures against Israel, and then Bob's yer uncle for WWIII.
That said, we're already back in Gaza looking for Gilad, so perhaps it's just an empty threat.
-
And they think that makes Israel any less likely to go into Gaza? Not terribly smart are they? Not to mention that using it against Israeli troops in Gaza would kinda backfire, as they take out a couple of thousand civilians - their own civilians - at the same time. Didn't have much left over for them in the first place, and this certainly doesn't help.
Finally, they of course still have the problem of delivery. Just loading them onto a rocked won't accomplish much, as they still need dispersal to do anything serious. Idiots.
They can just pop it where they always pop it,inside cities.
They can hit nearly every Israeli major city easily and asumming they have the most basic bio weapons(Anthrax is fairly easily to use), they got a potent killer that won't spread that much.
EDIT: Sandwich, asumming WMD alert, where are you staying? :blah:
-
If they really do succeed with an effective strike against you, I doubt many nations would raise an eyebrow if you glazed the place. I wouldn't.
[Edit] Yes they could, but unless they come up with something better than your regular explosive to disperse it, just wrapping a few bags filled with nails around the explosive would probably cause more casualties.
-
I'm staying at home, bro - I live in the neighborhood of Gilo, with the Arab-Israeli cities, villages, and neighborhoods of Bethlehem and Beit Jala on one side and Beit Tsafafa on the other. Tossing a WMD anywhere in Jerusalem would be stupid.
...oh crap.
-
I'm staying at home, bro - I live in the neighborhood of Gilo, with the Arab-Israeli cities, villages, and neighborhoods of Bethlehem and Beit Jala on one side and Beit Tsafafa on the other. Tossing a WMD anywhere in Jerusalem would be stupid.
...oh crap.
Could be worse. I'm 5 minutes from the Goverment area and in the dense part of the city.
:confused:
-
Bloody hell. If they have anything effectively weaponized (i.e. not the ricin-type pish), then this is rather geopolitically apocalyptic stuff indeed.
-
Sounds like a bluff to me.
-
Sounds like a bluff to me.
I'd expect - and hope - so.
-
And Hamas shows why it is clearly the worst possible goverment for the Pals (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14901075.htm)
Hamas militants attack Israeli military outpost
By Dion Nissenbaum
Knight Ridder Newspapers
JERUSALEM - For the first time since its leaders took control of the Palestinian government in March, Hamas militants led a sophisticated pre-dawn attack Sunday on an Israeli military outpost along the Gaza border, killing two soldiers and abducting a third.
The raid created the most serious crisis here since Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip last summer.
Israeli tanks almost immediately moved into the fringes of the Gaza Strip, talks between rival Palestinian factions over ending attacks inside Israel fell apart, and Egyptian diplomats worked feverishly to prevent the situation from spinning out of control.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his military leaders warned the Palestinian government that it would be held responsible for the safety of the kidnapped soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, 19.
"We intend to respond to what happened this morning in such a way that everyone involved will know the price they will pay will be painful, and if the situation does not change, will hurt sevenfold," said Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz.
It was unclear whether the attack could have taken place without the knowledge of top-level Hamas leaders. Nor was it clear how long the operation had been planned. In taking credit for the attack, militants called it retaliation for several recent Israeli raids, but the Palestinians attacked the Israeli outpost through a 700-yard tunnel that Capt. Noa Meir of the Israel Defense Forces said would have taken months to dig.
The new Hamas-led government urged militants holding Shalit to keep him safe, but stopped short of calling for his release. Israel's Cabinet met late Sunday night to weigh its options and reportedly cleared the way for a possible rescue attempt before staging a wider military assault.
But efforts to free Shalit could be tempered by painful memories of past efforts to rescue kidnapped Israelis. In 1994, another 19-year-old soldier, Israeli-American Nachson Waxman, was kidnapped by Hamas militants and killed five days later during a failed Israeli rescue mission.
Sunday's attack came as Hamas leaders were working out the final details of an agreement with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to halt attacks inside Israel.
Abbas, who leads the more moderate Fatah party, joined Israel in criticizing Hamas for staging the raid just as the two sides were finalizing a deal that would have barred such attacks.
Sunday's attack took place before dawn at an Israeli army outpost near the Kerem Shalom kibbutz, which lies just inside Israel at Gaza's southern end. The kibbutz is about four miles southeast of Rafah and about two miles northeast of the Egyptian border.
Using a tunnel more than a third of a mile long, three teams of Palestinian commandoes surprised soldiers at the outpost with mortars, machine guns and hand grenades.
The tunnel, which began under a Palestinian home 400 yards inside the Gaza Strip, stretched 300 yards into Israel.
At least two of the Palestinian militants were wearing Israeli military uniforms during the assault.
Two Israeli soldiers were killed and four others wounded, the Israeli military said.
Two Palestinians were also killed, but five or six others managed to escape back into the Gaza Strip with Shalit, who was seen walking with his captors, the Israeli military said.
The raid - dubbed "Operation Fading Illusion" by the attackers - marked the first time since Hamas took over the Palestinian government that its militant wing has launched such an assault inside Israel. Until this month, Hamas had largely stood by a 16-month cease-fire with Israel as smaller militant groups launched suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis.
But Hamas called off its cease-fire in early June after a series of inflammatory deaths. First, Israel assassinated a top Hamas security official and leading Gaza Strip militant, Jamal Abu Samhadana, in an aerial missile strike. The following day, eight Palestinian civilians out for a day at the beach were killed in an explosion during an Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Strip coast.
An Israeli military investigation declared that none of its shells hit the Palestinians that afternoon, but the findings are in dispute, and Hamas immediately resumed launching rudimentary rockets into southern Israel.
The Hamas military wing joined Samhadana's Popular Resistance Committees and a new group called the Islamic Army in taking credit for the attack, calling it a response to the recent Israeli attacks, including three botched missile strikes that killed 13 Palestinian civilians in the past two weeks.
"The operation is a natural response to the occupation crimes and massacres against the Palestinian people," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri. "Hamas will continue to resist as long as there is occupation."
Sunday's kidnapping was the first since 2000, when three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and killed by Hezbollah forces on Israel's border with Lebanon. Their bodies were returned to Israel four years later as part of a prisoner exchange.
Knight Ridder Newspapers special correspondent Cliff Churgin contributed to this report from Jerusalem.
So really, who's inflaming **** now? :evil:
-
This may sound odd, but I think Hamas taking power might turn out to be the best thing that's ever happened for the peace process there. Simply because anytime something goes wrong now, it's now their fault, and they can't turn around and blame the more moderate Fatah people for it. Give it a year and, as long as Israel doesn't go completely nuts in Gaza and the west bank, Hamas will have zero credibility left with 99% of the palestinian population.
They're already getting rather desperate and have repeatedly looked like fools and imbeciles to their own supporters, and it will only get worse for them as long as Israel keeps its distance - and its cool - enough that Hamas can't effectively put the blame on them.
-
HAMAS has been planning this raid since they took power--the tunnel was 700 meters long and would have taken months to dig--and it shows a high degree of sophistication on their part, though of course it was a failure even in tactical terms since it was driven off with such minor losses.
That said, the truly ominous part here is that they must have been planning over an equal length of time to make this threat about bio-weapons, since they issued it so quickly after this raid and the massing in preparation for a rescue mission, that they showed it wasn't some random thing, but planned. That adds some authority to it.
Furthermore, the fact that HAMAS initiated the raid and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades issued the threat strongly suggests that the "Palestinian Civil War" is just a sham and that both sides remain for all intents and purposes united in their military wings in the goal of the destruction of Israel.
You know, I rather liked having a non hypocritical Palestinian goverment that just admitted it wanted us dead.
-
There is of course that niggling fact that the militant wing and political wing are effectively two different organizations with the same name...
-
Sounds like a bluff to me.
Me too, though it's not inconceivable that they'd have at least something fairly basic like Sarin. The '20 types of weapon' thing seems unlikely, as well. If they have one effective device, they'd probably move to mass produce it rather than look at other things.
-
Using a tunnel more than a third of a mile long, three teams of Palestinian commandoes surprised soldiers at the outpost with mortars, machine guns and hand grenades.
The tunnel, which began under a Palestinian home 400 yards inside the Gaza Strip, stretched 300 yards into Israel.
At least two of the Palestinian militants were wearing Israeli military uniforms during the assault.
that actually sounds like a pretty well planned and coordinated assault. big contrast from what you usually see on the news here, which involves exploding ppl and/or random skirmishes (or throwing rocks)
edit: of course the conspiracy theorist in me says that the israelis were behind the attack, using it to destabilize the fatah-hamas talks, and giving them a reason to invade the gaza(again). but i'll admit its somewhat of a stretch
-
I'm betting that the threat from Al-Aqsa is a bluff. (At least I hope it is.) But if it is real, and they do have some sort of WMD, I'd stake that is was something biological. That stuff can be reproduced fairly quickly, if they aren't too concerned with safety. But to use it in a city, with an explosive dispersal system, wouldn't do too much. It just wouldn't spread far enough. If they were smart (Let's hope they're not), they would render it an aresol and load it in a rocket. Shoot it over a city, and the wind spreads it as it sinks. Even if it didn't kill a large number of people, it would have a huge terror factor. It would definitely provoke a massive retaliation against the group and any nation which harbors them. If the US gets involved, (god forbid) it might be the nuclear option. Depending on which nation harbors the group, we could be looking at WW III, with the widespread deployment of tactical nuclear devices. And if the US has what I think it does sitting in its arsenal, everything could go south really fast.
The only saving grace is that this is an extreme worst-case scenario.
-
What do you think they have? The oft rumored Neutron bomb?
-
Ah jeez. I guess I better start brushing up on my Biblical end-times reading. I don't want to pick the wrong team whe the **** hits the fan.
-
What do you think they have? The oft rumored Neutron bomb?
Often used boxers that haven't been washed in 3 years
-
I doubt they have nukes. Maybe dirty bombs, but not nukes. Nuclear devices are not easy to produce in numbers, and unless you have the facilities for building them properly there's a fair chance they'll go off in storage, or during launch.
As for neutron bombs... they're even more difficult to make, because you need to produce appreciable quantities of deuterium and tritium.
-
Nuclear devices are not easy to produce in numbers, and unless you have the facilities for building them properly there's a fair chance they'll go off in storage, or during launch
Who says you need to actually build any of them? Over a dozen went missing when the Soviet Union broke up. It could very well be one of them......
-
What do you think they have? The oft rumored Neutron bomb?
No. It's called the "Pure Fusion Device."
Standard nukes work like this: They split a nucleus of a heavy metal, usually an isotope of Uranium or Plutonium. A very small amount of the nucleus's mass is converted to energy (Roughly less than 0.001%). That's where the bang comes from. And also a huge amount of radiation.
Pure Fusion works like this: A deuterium or tritium mass is put under extreme temperature and pressure. It's basically the same conditions as those in the sun. The resulting explosion is even more massive than even the largest nukes, even Russia's Tsar Bomba. Even worse, there is almost no long term fallout. That means no reason not to use them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Fusion_Weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Fusion_Weapon)
Most important (Quoted from article):
Pure fusion weapons offer the possibility of generating very small nuclear yields and the advantage of reduced collateral damage stemming from fallout because these weapons would not create the highly radioactive byproducts associated with fission-type weapons. Yet, the lethality of these weapons due to prompt nuclear radiation and explosive force would still be great. For instance, a pure fusion weapon with an explosive force equivalent to one ton of TNT would affect an area nearly a hundred times larger than a conventional bomb with the same explosive force.
The Pure Fusion Device is the black sheep of the US arsenal. Everyone knows it's there, being researched, just no one will acknowledge it. The US denies it is working on it. At the time the US disavowed the project, it was estimated that the US was 18 months away from a functioning prototype. That was about 16 months ago.
In addition, it is confirmed that France and possibly Russia is working on a prototype. If at least two nations are working on it, it seems a pretty good bet that US is too, they just don't want to admit it.
Not a real pretty image for the future of war is it?
-
Bet you london to an orange we don't have one...
-
We might not, but then where is the proof to say we don't?
But then we might, but where is the proof to say we do?
Personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution.
-
We (UK) probably don't because we're too pussified.
-
Uh, the idea that such a weapon wouldn't produce fallout is a sick joke. Most of the fallout from a nuclear explosion is not caused by remnants of the nuclear fuel used to create the explosion but matter that was caught in the heart of the blast (the weapon casing, the ground if it was near enough, etc.). You have all that vaporized material in a space chock full of ionizing radiation, and you get nuclear instability all across the board. Not just in heavy elements, in virtually all of them.
There is no such thing as a clean nuclear bomb. Period.
-
Uh, the idea that such a weapon wouldn't produce fallout is a sick joke. Most of the fallout from a nuclear explosion is not caused by remnants of the nuclear fuel used to create the explosion but matter that was caught in the heart of the blast (the weapon casing, the ground if it was near enough, etc.). You have all that vaporized material in a space chock full of ionizing radiation, and you get nuclear instability all across the board. Not just in heavy elements, in virtually all of them.
There is no such thing as a clean nuclear bomb. Period.
Yes, there is. Most nuclear radiation as you said comes from matter sucked in, but most nuclear devices are detonated at a high altitude to maximise damage, at that level there is very little radiation.
-
There is no such thing as a clean nuclear bomb. Period.
Sure there is. Use lots of soap.
Lots.
-
I agree with Ace Pace. If you detonate a PFD at high altitude, you get very little additional matter in the fusion reaction. Also, the reason a PFD produces so little radiation, is that the bomb is detonated based on fusion principles, not with a fission primary. In a standard fusion device, an initial fission reaction is used to bring the deuterium or tritium into a state conducive to fusion. That initial fisson reaction produces all the radiation, as you are using heavy particles, such as neutrons, to divide another nucleus in an uncontrolled chain reaction. Neutron flux, which results from fission, is really nasty. It only takes a few seconds exposure to shave several years off your life, not to mention the side effects it causes...
A PFD does not use a fission primary to induce fusion. It uses other methods, such as a laser or conventional compression explosive. And since there is no fission involved, there is no massive release of radiation. Fusion works on the principle of crushing, not splitting. When you crush something, parts of it do not shoot out (i.e.: Neutrons). It stays together, making the release of radiation minimal, if not non-existant.
-
I agree with Ace Pace. If you detonate a PFD at high altitude, you get very little additional matter in the fusion reaction. Also, the reason a PFD produces so little radiation, is that the bomb is detonated based on fusion principles, not with a fission primary. In a standard fusion device, an initial fission reaction is used to bring the deuterium or tritium into a state conducive to fusion. That initial fisson reaction produces all the radiation, as you are using heavy particles, such as neutrons, to divide another nucleus in an uncontrolled chain reaction. Neutron flux, which results from fission, is really nasty. It only takes a few seconds exposure to shave several years off your life, not to mention the side effects it causes...
A PFD does not use a fission primary to induce fusion. It uses other methods, such as a laser or conventional compression explosive. And since there is no fission involved, there is no massive release of radiation. Fusion works on the principle of crushing, not splitting. When you crush something, parts of it do not shoot out (i.e.: Neutrons). It stays together, making the release of radiation minimal, if not non-existant.
Regardless of that, modern devices used by the U.S(kinda three stage devices) are very clean in terms of efficiency, when they use the Fusion stage to retrigger the fission stage, anahilating roughly 97% of the Uranium which is rather good.
-
Actually, if you fuse tritium and deuterium, you do indeed get a neutron out of the reaction, in addition to energy released as gamma/röntgen radiation and kinetic energy of helium and neutron... And if you fuse two tritium nuclei, you get even two neutrons per reaction.
In fact, the modern fusion bombs rely on neutron flux to produce their tritium. Their fuel of choice is lithium deuteride, or rather, lithium-6 deuteride. When lithium is exposed to neutron bombardment, the reaction produces tritium. The preferrance of solid fuel instead of liquified deuterium or tritium is obvious - solid fuel is easier to keep solid. Anyway, the reaction goes like this:
Li-6 + n => 2 H-3 + He-4
H-2 + H-3 => He-4 + n + ENERGY
The resulting tritium then reacts with deuterium that was in the lithium deuteride. The reaction can be triggered by any means that produce sufficient pressure and temperature, but in any case, some neutrons are needed to create some tritium to make the fusion reaction possible. This makes it quite clear that a small fission device is best suited to fire up the lithium deuteride.
And speaking of annihilation - that is a different thing altogether. It is true that the slow neutrons will affect the uranium particles from the fission detonator so that most of it goes through a fission reaction, but that doesn't really annihilate the radioactive particles (ie. transmute them into pure, massless energy in form of electromagnetic radiation). Instead, the released energy (kinetic, or thermal, whatever you prefer) blows the radioactive daughter nuclei (like Strontium, Krypton, Barium and Xenon) on a wide area. They form the most of radioactive fallout - and when they decay, the reaulting nuclei, of course.
Besides, most of the neutrons emanating from the fusion reaction are too fast to trigger fission reaction in the spare uranium nuclei that still are around. The Uranium-235 -fissionable requires slow neutrons to change the nuclei into Uranium-236, which is spontaneously fissionable. That triggers the fission chain reaction. U-238 is in the mixture to make the fisson material stable enough not to blow up spontaneously from one stray neutron...
Actually, the neutron flux is probably going to play a big role in future fusion reactors as means of producing tritium. It's simple - just cover the insides of the reactor torus with lithium.
-
When I said deuterium or tritium, I meant a fusion reaction between deuterium and deuterium or tritium and tritium...
Either way it's a moot point...I just got skooled by Herra Tohtori...
Herra ==> :hammer:
Me ==> :) OW!
-
On an Israel-Palestine note:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5123262.stm
Israel's military has attacked a major bridge in Gaza in what it says is an effort to stop militants from moving a captured Israeli soldier.
The Israeli military has been on alert following the capture of Gilad Shalit by Palestinian militants on Sunday.
Unconfirmed reports say Israeli tanks massed on the border with Gaza have begun to move - but Israel denies this.
-
Mmm never heard of a Pure Fusion Device....I'll add that to rumored semi-scifi weapons list that you hear about from time to time. Personally the Laser on the JSF is cooler but not as explosive.
I haven't heard much about this story in the major news media. I guess its on the down-low right now. With the airstrike and stories of tanks massing at the borders I'm a might bit concerned about whats going to happen. But I don't disagree with Israel...I'd be pissed too. I'd want my soldier back.
-
Laser weapons on aircraft aren't a rumor anymore. USAF built two 767's with solid state lasers in the nose. Those babies can shoot down ICBM's at a distance of over 200 miles. One was in Iraq, before Saddam got captured. I don't know where that one is currently, same goes for the second.
-
@Herra
Ach! Ye beat me to it. Could not have put it better, though.
-
I'm on summer break...Don't school me again! :)
-
... i can understand bombing the bridges to stop the guys with the soldier, but did they really need to bomb the power station (apparently the only one in gaza)?
and buzzing the syrian guy was just a no class move.
-
... i can understand bombing the bridges to stop the guys with the soldier, but did they really need to bomb the power station (apparently the only one in gaza)?
and buzzing the syrian guy was just a no class move.
Can't say I can justify their actions there but attacking a powerplant is a pretty good way to disrupt operations. Its something you'd expect....over the top or not. I wouldn't say it wasn't a 'no class' move to buzz Syria either. Lots of attacks on Israel come from Syrian borders....and Syria is in such a state as to not be able to do anything about it. What would have been no-class is to drop weapons on Syria. They sent a message...its communication...its not as big of a deal.
-
sure it would disrupt their operations (although i saw a shot of the bridge, and the river was completely dry), but it also messes up the lives of almost every palestinian living in gaza. now they don't have power, and they can't get from point a to point b. theyre really just tossing gasoline on the flame with this one. they coulda dealt with it so much easier. which reminds me, the palestinian group demanded they release the women and children from the prisons. women i can understand, but why do they have children in prisons? what's so dangerous about them that they wouldnt release them to make the situation a little less hostile?
-
It's a power play. Put a woman in jail, they can say "Do what we say or we kill her." That's bad enough. With children in jail, how exactly do you say no to their demands? It's not that the children pose a threat, it's that the children can be exploited to force people to do what you want. As long as they hold the children, they have power, when they give up the children, they lose power. A loss of power isn't exactly what you want in a war, is it?
-
i dunno, it just doesnt sound fitting for the 'bastion of democracy' in the middle-east.
-
I really question the wisdom of Israel sending an army to find one man. First of all, shouldn't that be the sort of thing that Mossad is famous for? And secondly, common logic says that it takes days or weeks to find one man among millions, whereas it take about two second to pull a trigger aimed at the head of that same man. Which do you think will happen first? Hamas will execute him in a heartbeat before they let IDF troops get within a hundred meters of him.
Also, if Hamas has (grudgingly) agreed to Fatah's two-state solution, implicitly recognizing Israel, they'll use the Gaza incursions as an excuse to back off and renew their violent campaign.
Sandwich, what say you?
-
The whole army thing I think is a front. The new Israeli PM has to look powerful (he's seen as weak in security issues) to deal with any threats so the army thing is pretty big. But you send in the SF's to find the guy and bring him out and problem solved with extra political leverage with Israeli's and pretty big signpost to Hamas as to how things can go.
Its a pretty messed up situation. I'm speaking largely to bring up points of discussion rather than what I really think. What I really think is that its screwed up with no real solution as long as people think what they think right now. By people I mean all sides and in terms of large groups rather than just one person.
-
Well, they say they have fired one.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-06-29T013909Z_01_L29258645_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ROCKET.xml (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-06-29T013909Z_01_L29258645_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ROCKET.xml)
-
ah, 20 warheads is a lot more believable than 20 different kinds of weapons. as long as theyre shooting them at the army its ok by me. fight the oppressors!