Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rictor on June 28, 2006, 09:42:35 am
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http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1958776,00.html
In any other country, you would call it genocide and ethnic cleansing. You would call it a monstrous act beyond comprehension, a barbaric assault of all that is good and right in the world. In Iraq you would call it...well, no one's calling it anything, because hardly anyone notices. Yugoslavia was bombed and invaded for far smaller numbers than this. But I guess it's absurd to hold everyone to the same standards, right?
*I put 100k killed, though that number is more than a year out of date, and is probably much higher by now
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not yugoslavia. Serbia and Montenegro. yugoslavia fell apart around '91 when Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia and Herzegovina left it and became separate countries. Serbia was... bombed by NATO somewhere around '98 if i'm not mistaken, not sure, i was only 8 years old at the time :nervous:
yes, i'm nitpicking.
as for the article itself... frankly, couldnt care less...
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You may call it a monstrous act beyond comprehension, but Americans call it progress!
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Not really....It is civil war.
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Has everyone forgotten the "Mission Accomplished" banner? That means the mission was accomplished, so stop being naysayers. You'll make the troops cry.
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Yugoslavia was bombed and invaded for far smaller numbers than this. But I guess it's absurd to hold everyone to the same standards, right?
Yes. Damn those bastard Kosovans for daring to presume that they had any right to self determination! It was an act of asymetric warfare for them to make it look there was any danger in allowing an army already guilty of two genocidal wars into their country.
Such obvious propaganda sickens me. It's obvious the Serbian army only wanted to hand out flowers and lollypops!
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I call it "Hurricane America"
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kara: If you think that, and you're certainly entitled to it, than I must ask why you're (presumably) not calling for US and UK leaders to be strung up, delivered in chains to the Hague and their nation's military capability destroyed? In my mind, equal acts deserve equal consequences. Some crazy notion like equality before the law or some such thing. And I was not reffering exclusively to Kosovo, the same arguement can be used for a dozen other places. For example, the conflict in Sudan has claimed, according to Wikipedia, between 40k and 400k lives, and driven out many more. No civilized person or nation would think twice about calling it a genocide, and Somalia has become in international pariah. The consequences of that conflict are, if we take the most reliable figures for Iraq, very similar to what's going on in Iraq. So why the double standards?
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Genocide implies (ethnic cleansing is a redundant term), well, an attempt to remove a particular demographic. Violence has not been conciously leveled at a particular demographic by the US; and while it has by the locals, what're you gonna do? Send in the US Army as peacekeepers?
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kara: If you think that, and you're certainly entitled to it, than I must ask why you're (presumably) not calling for US and UK leaders to be strung up
Who says I'm not? I would have thought that the vitriolic language I tend to use when describing those people should have made the depth of contempt I have for those peoples actions in Iraq.
Let me ask you this then Rictor. What do you think the UN should have done about the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo?
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Genocide implies (ethnic cleansing is a redundant term), well, an attempt to remove a particular demographic. Violence has not been conciously leveled at a particular demographic by the US; and while it has by the locals, what're you gonna do? Send in the US Army as peacekeepers?
Motives are irrelevant, because anyone can claim any motive. If you burn down someone's house and say that you had no idea that fire+house would equal destruction, should you get off any easier? If the same result has been achieved by two parties, the same consequences should ensue. Every side will always attempt to potray their agression as necessary, minimal and beneficial, so that hardly counts for much, eh?
Who says I'm not? I would have thought that the vitriolic language I tend to use when describing those people should have made the depth of contempt I have for those peoples actions in Iraq.
Let me ask you this then Rictor. What do you think the UN should have done about the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo?
Yeah, but however much you, me or Bob down the street cast scorn on the Bush adminstration, it's perfectly clear than nothing will ever happen to them (as in trial, imprisonment etc). In my mind, if all criminals can't be punished equally, it's unjust to punish any. To me, and you may well disagree, justice trumps safety as the basic cornerstone of a civilized order. If the international order can not provide justice, that is equal enforcement of the set rules for all, other issues are secondary. Creating such a double standard, and legitimizing it by continuing to enfore it (or tolerate it, depending on who you are), essentially allows one group (powerful/Western nations) to perpetrate violence with not only force on their side, but much more imporantly legitimacy. Punishing one person and not another for an equal crime gives the second person carte blanche to act with impunity, knowing that his exemption from the law will never be seriously questioned as long as he's able to deliver a steady stream of lesser, more cartoonishly evil criminals for the authories to concern themselves with. If Bush & Co were delivered to an internatinal court for indictment, if their countries were placed under sanctions and so on, I guarantee that you would never hear another word out of me again regarding Kosovo, Bosnia etc. Because, frankly, it's OK to be screwed over, as long as you know everyone else is being screwed as well.
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Rictor, you didn't actually answer karas' question, did you?
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Motives are irrelevant, because anyone can claim any motive. If you burn down someone's house and say that you had no idea that fire+house would equal destruction, should you get off any easier? If the same result has been achieved by two parties, the same consequences should ensue. Every side will always attempt to potray their agression as necessary, minimal and beneficial, so that hardly counts for much, eh?
To say that motives are irrevelant is specious, and your argument a particularly poor straw man. The ends do not justify the means, but they help. Anyone can claim any motive, yes. But they have to be able to back it up.
Regardless genocide implies intent; and this is something demonstrably not present on the part of the US.
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we like to call it freedom and democracy instead.
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Yugoslavia was bombed and invaded for far smaller numbers than this. But I guess it's absurd to hold everyone to the same standards, right?
It might just be me, but doesn't Iraq get bombed like, every day?
That's what I thought.
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To say that motives are irrevelant is specious, and your argument a particularly poor straw man. The ends do not justify the means, but they help. Anyone can claim any motive, yes. But they have to be able to back it up.
Regardless genocide implies intent; and this is something demonstrably not present on the part of the US.
OK, so is it any less wrong to kill 100 people intentionally as opposed to unintenionally*? Motives should not be mitigating circumstances. They matter in an anstract sense, but knowing that the person had no evil, diabolical plan to kill thousands doesn't make those thousands any less dead
*though I don't see how you can start a war and then claim that any deaths that ensue in the waging of that war are unintended. Every two-year old can tell you that wars kill, so the consequences could have been forseen relatively easily.
Rictor, you didn't actually answer karas' question, did you?
Let me ask you this then Rictor. What do you think the UN should have done about the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo?
Nothing. Europe, and indeed the world, has been engaged in almost constant war for more than two millenia. It is only in the past few decades, the blink of eye in historical terms, that Europe has embraced its new-found peacefullness and civility which they are so quick to hold over the the people of the great barbarian hinterlands (aka the world). Every European leader of note in the past God knows how long would be tried as a war criminal if he were to live in the present day. So I think it's ever so slightly hypocritical that the two continents which perfected the art of war and empire, Europe and America, get up on their high horse and condemn all the the filthy savages who dare fire a shot in anger without asking permission first. Wars between neighbors, be they in the Balkans, Asia, Africa or elsewhere, are as frequent as they are inevtiable. Pretty much every inch of the Balkans has been taken and retaken two dozen times, and it's only this last time that the "international community", the West, has been appaled? Please. If you want to preach about peace and brotherly love, bring a priest. But don't expect me to take the sermon seriously from the heads of the most agressive continent in history. Don't expect me to take it seriously from what is perhaps the most warlike nation of the past half-century.
Like I said, if justice can not be administered equally, that is to say all wars punished, than it's absurd to pick-and-choose which wars are going to selectively be punished and which ones tolerated. Until I see every statesman responsible for leading his nation to war, from the highest to the lowest, on trial at the Hague, that institution has ho legitimacy because it is failing to perform its main duty which is to serve as an impartial court of justice.
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And the targeted killing of a specific civillian ethnic group?
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As Aldo points out there is a difference between a war of occupation and genocide. Serbia had already been involved in two and you expected the west to sit back and allow them to go for the hatrick?
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Yeah because, the US bombing Serbia was all about the genocide.
Hahahahahahaha.
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Wanna tell me what it was about then?
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I'm of the opinion: **** 'em.
If they wanted to be treated better, they should've forged from fire and steel an empire that spanned the globe.
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As Aldo points out there is a difference between a war of occupation and genocide. Serbia had already been involved in two and you expected the west to sit back and allow them to go for the hatrick?
The difference, when it exists, is most often abstract. On the ground, it's all the same. X number of casualties, X number of refugees, and it doesn't make any concrete difference what you call it.
What I'm saying is that an organization such as the UN has no right to deem a war illegitimate unless it is prepared to deem all wars illegimitate and act to prevent them by all means necessary. The arguement that one war is worse than another is like saying that stabbing someone is OK but shooting them isn't. What happened in Yugoslavia in the 90s is nothing that isn't happening in two dozen places today and has not happened about ten million times in the past, often on Eurpean soil. Like I said, every notable European leader in history would be convicted of war crimes by today's standards.
And by the way, riddle me this: the UN Security Council never sanctioned the bombing of Yugoslavia. So the UN is out of the picture; and any legitimacy it may bestow. The action was exclusively a NATO attack, and in order to be lawful under the NATO charter one of the alliance members must have been threatened by war. So tell me, which one was it? Britain? America? Even if you accept the arguement that the UN has a mandate to act as a global cop, which I believe it doesn't, the attack wasn't sanctioned by the police. It was carried out by a voluntary group of nations who have no official power beyond their borders, except the power of force. If Bob, Joe and me get together and form a group for mutual protection, this by no means gives us any official authority or legitimacy to police the neighborhood. It's vigilantism, plain and simple.
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I think there is a bit of a concrete difference between, say, a lack of care in preventing people being killed in crossfire, to having mass executions of women and children. If the whole Kosovo 'incident' was merely a guerilla war or somesuch, there wouldn't have been nearly the same pressure to intervene. Granted, political aspirations and the aim of NATO to redefine itself played a significant role in determining that some action was taken, but we can also see the problems of the UNs' relative (and unfortunate) toothlessness when it comes to similar situations such as that in Darfur.
Of course, there's also the question whether, for example, pulling a rapist or mugger off their victim is also 'vigilantism', and to be discouraged.
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Bull***t. What are you people on about in kosovo...??? Are you even hearing to what yu are saing?
The ethnic minority DID NOt belong there in the first place. Yugoslavia graeted them gave thema a home and what do they do they want theyr own country?? F***'em I sai kille all for all I care about them. If they want a land of theyr own they should go to their own country which is Albania and NOT Kosovo. That has always been serbian teritory. Oh and dont believe everithing that the American controled press tells you. there was A LOT of censurship involving the Kosovo war. It wasnt like the serbians were dooing all the shooting they were shooting eachother everywhere they met children women etc. The serbian army just retaliated at first to the attack that serbian were subjected in Kosovo !
so dont give me that. I'm from Romania I should know a thing or 2 about what happened there since i have firends that worked lived near /in Serbia and let me tell you what they said on the news is just what NATO wanted you to see. They were among the last remaining true powers in eastern Europe aside from Russia. they considered it a threat so they attacked it on that sh**** excuse for a humanitarian war.
Also the fact that the Romanian gouvermnet toghether with the president supported NATO was one of the bigges mistakes this country has ever done. The Serbians have ALWAIS been allies with us and when our turn came we stabbed them in the back.
Even so you should see the diference in attitude that serbian's and albanians have towards romanian peace keeping forces and milatary police. They hate NATO yet they respect our people...wanna know why?? Because we hardly had to kill any one of them we usualy negociated or subdued them without actualy killing them , bomming them or anithing like that.
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Bull***t. What are you people on about in kosovo...??? Are you even hearing to what yu are saing?
The ethnic minority DID NOt belong there in the first place. Yugoslavia graeted them gave thema a home and what do they do they want theyr own country?? F***'em I sai kille all for all I care about them.
That says it all, for me - You're an idiot.
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Whatever happened to good old fashioned carpet bombing?
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Forget carpet bombing, whatever happened to firebombing? We finally come up with a massively effective, conventional way to kill people en masse, and it just sort of fades from practice. What is that?
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Oh Aldo i would love I would absolutely love for america to be torn apart by diferent ethnic minorities. The talk to me about me beeing an idiot. Oh and before you go around acusing me of beeing and idiot come take a look in the Kosovo region where serbians are killed (they are a minority here now, thank NATO) and the Serbian army well is not alowed to retaliate. As I recall the USA was founded on masss killings and genocide and virtualy the exterminations of the native people. also lets not forget the numerous wars that took place for america to expand its teritories. So before you go around pointing a finger at other people look first at yourself.
The reason why I have such resentement towards the minority there is not because they aer of diferent beliefes nationaliti or anithing like that is because I HATE the way they uderstood to thank the Serbians by ripping yet another portion of they country . If you want Independence then do it lean if you can at first but dont go around acting like a terrorist and then expect to be threated like a human beeing cuz I for one have no mercy towards people like these.
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Oh Aldo i would love I would absolutely love for America to be torn apart by different ethnic minorities. The talk to me about me being an idiot. Oh and before you go around accusing me of being and idiot come take a look in the Kissoff region where Serbians are killed (they are a minority here now, thank NATO) and the Serbian army well is not allowed to retaliate. As I recall the USA was founded on Mass killings and genocide and virtually the exterminations of the native people. also lets not forget the numerous wars that took place for America to expand its territories. So before you go around pointing a finger at other people look first at yourself.
The reason why I have such resentment to wards the minority there is not because they ear of different beliefs nationality or anything like that is because I HATE the way they understood to thank the Serbians by ripping yet another portion of they country . If you want Independence then do it lean if you can at first but dint go around acting like a terrorist and then expect to be threated like a human being cuz I for one have no mercy towards people like these.
You can't change the past first off, so let's not drag up the whole Christopher Columbus thing.
And if you state that you hate an entire group of people for any reason (they tore my country apart), then I... well, don't hate you... I put you in a bin in my brain labeled "Bigot" and ignore your opinion. You see, no matter what, that group of people has plenty of innocents, and blanket hatred covers all.
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The reason for hating them is not just because they tore a country apart its they way and means they used to do it. Oh and i dont see anyone talking about the serbian wemen and children that were killed at the hands of the people in Kosovo. If you want to be fair then lets be fair. this was a one sided war with NATO crushing Serbia yet dooing nothing to the people in Kosovo. They are not innocent any way you look at it. they bommed and killed children and wemen basicly inocent people too so why are there none of them in any international court trials??
Oh and sorry about gooing so hard against them just read some articles that made boild this morning.
Oh and what about the attacks on the serbian people left there after the war??? How do you describe those??
Oh and Mars i'm not talking about mideval history here i'm talking about the 19 th century and 18th if you want to be fair. Also lets not go around all high and mighty acusing other lifestiles or cultures or the way they ahndle theyr afairs cuz well America is virtualy a baby when compared to ANY european country in fact America is a Baby when compared to most of the countryes on this planet.
Also one good thing came out of the whole Kosovo war the serbians proved that the F117 was by no means as stealthy as they present it! :P More improvemnt on the tech boys. I'm just saing this because i get all warm inside whenever something that is suposed to be either invisible to rader or virtualy impervoius to most guns gets trashed . It forces engineers to improve the tech therefore making me even more happy.
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Oh Aldo i would love I would absolutely love for america to be torn apart by diferent ethnic minorities.
What the hell has that got to do with anything?
The talk to me about me beeing an idiot. Oh and before you go around acusing me of beeing and idiot come take a look in the Kosovo region where serbians are killed (they are a minority here now, thank NATO) and the Serbian army well is not alowed to retaliate.
They were always a minority, ever since the Ottoman empire in about 1400 or so IIRC. Titos' repression of Kosovan devolution / independence movements only served to contribute to divisions there. In, for example, an unoffical referendum in the 90s (after Milosovic had moved to reduced Kosovan autonomy) 98% of an 80% turnout (apparently this was verified by independent observers) voted for independence (there was a peaceful campaign at the time). This perhaps contributed to the relocation of ethnic Serb refugees to Kosovo during the civil war (i.e. diluting the ehtnicity of the area).
Of course, it's scarcely surprising it's unsafe for Serbs in Kosovo nowadays; you wouldn't expect an American to be safe living in, say, Iraq either, even if the exact conditions are different. but when the Serbian retaliation can be characteristed as killing civillians and expelling them from their homes, or burning down mosques and buildings with no military necessity... it's scarcely surprising there's bitterness. After all, you wouldn't forgive the US arbitrarily burning down mosques in Iraq just because some terrorist claims to represent all Iraqis.
As I recall the USA was founded on masss killings and genocide and virtualy the exterminations of the native people. also lets not forget the numerous wars that took place for america to expand its teritories. So before you go around pointing a finger at other people look first at yourself.
Ah, i see.
I'm not American.
(Idiot)
The reason why I have such resentement towards the minority there is not because they aer of diferent beliefes nationaliti or anithing like that is because I HATE the way they uderstood to thank the Serbians by ripping yet another portion of they country . If you want Independence then do it lean if you can at first but dont go around acting like a terrorist and then expect to be threated like a human beeing cuz I for one have no mercy towards people like these.
To 'thank' the Serbians? for what?
Why are you advocating collective punishment - in other words, a war crime? Does that mean the US can go and kill every arab it finds because of 9/11? Does it mean Spain could happily carpet bomb the Basque region when ETA launched an attack, or Britain invade Ireland in response to the IRA?
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Nope i just said only one side was bommbed. Neither of them was innocent. yet mass punishment of the serbs took place.
Also wasnt referint to you as a person Aldo. God damn mi english. Oh and if you want to go around pointing the finger at the serbian army for war crimes the 30% of the people in kosovo should shot on sight for war crimes wemen and adolescents, young and old , men you name it. This was by no means a war fought against an army it was a war fought on well terorist if you will. they were civilians they attacked the serbians they attacked milatary targets and stuff so they are not inocent. the fact that the serbians sent in the army and well exagerated about the whole situation is diferent matter altoghether.
Oh and about the last coment refering to resentement what should the serbian army 9what is left of it anywai) do to punish those who attack serbian citizens?? Or rather why arent they in prison?? Instead we see a parade of war criminals in Hague dont we?
I do not dispute the fact that some of them mai be war criminals but I hardly believe all of them are.
And if you want to be fair then the US and UK armyes should be on trial for war crimes along with theyr adiministrations and head of the army. I have yet to see a clean war till now. And dont tell me that its a different story cuz its not if civilians were killed intentionali or not its a crime.
Oh well I gues the statute of superpower grants you certain advantages over the rest of the world like excuses for war crimes and stuff.
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I didn't understand a word of that, natch.
But at least i'm not advocating the murder of 30% of a community on the basis of 'something my mate told me'.
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I wasnt advocating for the murder of 30% of the comunity because something mi mate told. I wasnt advocating for anithing. I was just pointing out that if this would of been a fair war so to speak and if NATO would of wanted to be fair about the whole situation then 30% of the Kosovo comunity should either be in prison or shot for war crimes or at least for beeing a terorist. Oh and you do realise that mi country and serbia have comon bourders dont you? The war took place just 700 km away from where i live.
Also I have yet to see you post and answer to the whole US, Uk and other western powers reason for not beeing on trial on the charge of war crimes. They sure as hell deserve to.
Why? Because they actualy bommbem religious targets and hospitals and stuff both in Kosovo Irak you name it. Weather it was intentionate or nat we cant really say all we have is thery word and "facts" that they present us. But regardless if civilians got killed, innocent civilians i mean, then its a crime isnt it?
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I wasnt advocating for the murder of 30% of the comunity because something mi mate told. I wasnt advocating for anithing. I was just pointing out that if this would of been a fair war so to speak and if NATO would of wanted to be fair about the whole situation then 30% of the Kosovo comunity should either be in prison or shot for war crimes or at least for beeing a terorist.
And do you care to back up this statement with any, y'know, facts to support the idea of killing 30% of a population? (would that make it ok for the Iraqi government to summarily execute insurgents?)
(fair war? What, when people are being lined up and shot by professional soldiers for being close to a fighting age?)
Oh and you do realise that mi country and serbia have comon bourders dont you? The war took place just 700 km away from where i live.
Romania is on the border diametrically opposite to the Kosovan side......
Also I have yet to see you post and answer to the whole US, Uk and other western powers reason for not beeing on trial on the charge of war crimes. They sure as hell deserve to.
Why? Because they actualy bommbem religious targets and hospitals and stuff both in Kosovo Irak you name it. Weather it was intentionate or nat we cant really say all we have is thery word and "facts" that they present us. But regardless if civilians got killed, innocent civilians i mean, then its a crime isnt it?
Um, technically it depends on intention and due care. The actual targeting of civillians ala ethnic cleansing, for example, is different in legal terms to the killing of civillians in the crossfire of active combat (although no less tragic). The prosecution of a war crime/s charge would thus largely rely on - in the Iraq example - proving that either civillians were actively targeted by the military, or that inadequate care was given to avoid collateral damage (what a nice, neutral word that is. So much easier on the eye than 'horrible bloody death')
I would welcome seeing Blair prosecuted (impeached) on the basis of participating in an illegal war on Iraq, but whether he could be linked to crime under the Geneva convention is a seperate issue to an indictment under parliamentary law.
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Umm so you want me to go and dig up information and news reports of events that happened what...7 or 8 year ago??
You o realise the task at hand dont you.
On a diferent matter it is well strange to see that the Kosovo war was given hier coverage of event leading to it ad events that folowed by our press then the international press. I would expected them to show some more interest in how things develop since it was a war which involved NATO!
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there is a diference between bombing a SAM site that happened to be on top of a hospetal, and going into a village of 500 and leaveing a village of 200. you see when a force goes into an area and trys to kill an ethnicity it's called genocide, the term "genocide" was coined by Raphael Lemkin (1900–1959), a Polish Jewish legal scholar, in 1943, from the roots genos (Greek for family, tribe or race) and -cide (Latin - occidere or cideo - to massacre). now this word gets throughen around a lot any time a large number of people are killed, but it only realy applys when you are trying to kill off a genos, when you are trying to clense the earth of all jews, trying to kill all chatholics in Ireland, trying to kill all albanians in kosovo.
what NATO did to serbia was what is known as a 'war'. in a war you have two forces one trying to use force to ,well, force the other to follow there will, wars can be genocidal if the will of one side is that the other no longer exsist. however, NATO had specific terms, namely that serbia pulled out it's forces from kosovo and that milosovich was removed from power and turned in, NATO was not trying to purge the surbian genos from exsistance, but the serbs were trying to perge all Albainians from kosovo, the serbs had done similar things twice in the recent past, so can you blame NATO for being a bit twitchy?
as for the Albanians being terrorists, well it may be true that there were valid targets there, but the way the serbs whent about it was far worse, it'd be like us useing nukes in Iraq.
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Umm so you want me to go and dig up information and news reports of events that happened what...7 or 8 year ago??
You o realise the task at hand dont you.
So you are just making it all up, then, are you?
On a diferent matter it is well strange to see that the Kosovo war was given hier coverage of event leading to it ad events that folowed by our press then the international press. I would expected them to show some more interest in how things develop since it was a war which involved NATO!
Sorry?
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Oki so when albanians go around killing serbian CIVLIANS what o you call that? Or bomb serbian churches or stores or houses what do you call that??? I'm not saing that the serbians were right i'm just saing that the solution wasnt right any way you look at it. Justice was hande down to aonly the serbs while the albanians were neither prosecuted or put on trial. Not all of them but many of them deserved to be on trial and in prison.
Also I see the point as to the whole concept and genocide and where it aplies and where not but i still as hell dont like it. dead civilians=bad thing to me regardeless of the circumstances!
Aldo I uderstood eventualy why I was beeing an idiot but to say that I made up this whole thing simply because i was bit****g about the task at hand is somewhat idotic to say the least. Never said i couldn show proof all i said was that it will be a hard task because of the time perriod that passed.
You know i actualy have to go around looking in the news papers archive several years back dont you??
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Oki so when albanians go around killing serbian CIVLIANS what o you call that? Or bomb serbian churches or stores or houses what do you call that??? I'm not saing that the serbians were right i'm just saing that the solution wasnt right any way you look at it. Justice was hande down to aonly the serbs while the albanians were neither prosecuted or put on trial. Not all of them but many of them deserved to be on trial and in prison.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4012043.stm
Aldo I uderstood eventualy why I was beeing an idiot but to say that I made up this whole thing simply because i was bit****g about the task at hand is somewhat idotic to say the least. Never said i couldn show proof all i said was that it will be a hard task because of the time perriod that passed.
You know i actualy have to go around looking in the news papers archive several years back dont you??
You have the internet. Surprisingly, information is posted on the internet. Fancy that.
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Wooops when did this happen? Oh well good thing it happened. Some justice fair justice that is has finaly strated to work. But that too litle too late in mi opinion.
Oh and a question exactly how many albanins were held on trial? Just those 3 or are there more?
I really should do more detalied searches.
Also as to the archive thing i was refering to newspapers over here. Surprisingly some of them dont have online archive dating that far back. Well that i know of at least.
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the USA doesn't quite have the best history when it comes to civil rights either...
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As I recall the USA was founded on masss killings and genocide and virtualy the exterminations of the native people.
you're right there
The reason why I have such resentement towards the minority there is not because they aer of diferent beliefes nationaliti or anithing like that is because I HATE the way they uderstood to thank the Serbians by ripping yet another portion of they country . If you want Independence then do it lean if you can at first but dont go around acting like a terrorist and then expect to be threated like a human beeing cuz I for one have no mercy towards people like these.
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
cry me a river
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Oki kazan did u not understant what you quoted above or does it sound that melodramatic?
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i understood you perfectly well
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I'm glad somebody did... :p
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so what you cant uderstant what i'm saing sometimes?? I find that hardly believeble. Got proof? :nervous:
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How on Earth is someone supposed to prove that they don't understand you some of the time?