Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: neoterran on July 08, 2006, 06:31:15 pm
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Hello.
I managed to install Windows Vista 5456 today.
This build had a dramatic increase in speed over Beta 2, with Aero Glass and applications being much more responsive, much more fit and finish and polish as well. Finally 7 clocks to choose from in the sidebar ;0P
I'm very confident that it will be a nice upgrade at the end of the year.
One thing was disappointing tho - Game ports (joystick ports - the old ones) are no longer supported in Vista. - You need USB for any joystick to work. Now, I know, I know... anyone worth their salt has a USB joystick nowadays... but I just thought it was sad the old game port is finished for good. It shows up in the device list... as "unsupported game port" :( Guess I'll have to shell out for a new stick now.
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Or you could simply use XP.
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but I just thought it was sad the old game port is finished for good. It shows up in the device list... as "unsupported game port" :( Guess I'll have to shell out for a new stick now.
No no no no no no no no!
Goddamnit! This pile of crap better be fixed by someone soon, I can't lose the ability to use my joystick if/when I upgrade to Vista. ROAR!
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Or you could simply use XP.
Well, obviously i'm dual booting at the moment and XP is my main OS.
But there are SO many improvements in so many ways using Vista, that it would be very disappointing to have to stay on the aging XP. Vista is an improvement in speed, usability, security, and productivity, and as of 5456, it is finally starting to show serious promise. This is the first build that was actually faster than XP for me.
Unfortunately, not supporting the (very old) game port standard really sucks. Perhaps someone will come out with a workaround, but it's probably the result of old legacy code being removed. It's not a matter of whether the game port shows up or not, it shows up but it specifically states "unsupported" and microsoft says there are no plans to support the game port in Vista. ;0(
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You guys still use gameports? If its a big problem get one of those adapters from gameport to USB.
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those are like, 30 bucks. Might as well buy a fancy new joystick...
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those are like, 30 bucks. Might as well buy a fancy new joystick...
Fancy to me in joystick land starts at $150.
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eh i paid 1o bucks CDN for my Logitech Atack 3 joystick that does everything i need it too
except no force feed back...eh...i'll live
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this really sucks because i like the simplicity of the analog interface. its so easy to wire a custom controller to it. each one supports 4 axes so if you got a sound card and an onboard gameport and use them both you can have 8 axes. buttons and hats arent as important to me as good clean analog axes. theese digital sticks use a hodgepodge of signaling and sensing techniques and arent as smooth or accurate as the good old 100 ohm variable resistors used in old analog controllers. now i have one of the best usb joysticks on the market right now (the x52). but im still not ready to give up my gameport. i can still within 30 minutes construct me an errector set based lever housing for additional flight controlls such as mixture and trim and other stuff my x52 doesnt have axes for, wire it up with a bread board and an old control cable i cut off a broken analog stick. any flight simmer out there could make use of extra gameports. this makes me sick that they no longer support them! vista you bastard! :D
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those are like, 30 bucks. Might as well buy a fancy new joystick...
I bought one at a garage sale for like $2. Joystick (MS Sidewinder) included.
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My issue with this would've been that my Sidewinder isn't supported by any Gameport->USB adapters anywhere, ever, but since that stick is dying now it's not that much of a problem.
That stick has endured terrible abuse for close to ten years and is still usable. I'd say I definitely got my money's worth out of it.
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Perhaps the release version of Vista will have a gameport driver - after all it's an incredibly minor device that few people use these days, especially the people who're *supposed* to be beta testing it.
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Oh come on, the gameport has been dying since 1996. You can't expect to see legacy support around forever. As far as I am concerned, Vista could drop legacy support to parallel and serial port as well if they haven't already. PS/2 is a bit debatable but it could go as well.
Nothing forces you to upgrade to Vista and as an alternative you have the option to go with linux or bsd where you can compile your own kernels with whatever hardware support you need. But don't expect the standard linux/bsd kernels to keep legacy hardware support around forever either.
Just face it, gameport, serial port and parallel port are dead. And I say that even when I still have my printer connected to parallel port.
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Oh come on, the gameport has been dying since 1996. You can't expect to see legacy support around forever. As far as I am concerned, Vista could drop legacy support to parallel and serial port as well if they haven't already. PS/2 is a bit debatable but it could go as well.
parallel and serial ports, as well as ps/2 connectors, are still supported.
Nothing forces you to upgrade to Vista and as an alternative you have the option to go with linux or bsd where you can compile your own kernels with whatever hardware support you need. But don't expect the standard linux/bsd kernels to keep legacy hardware support around forever either.
That's not an option for me. I do C# development work and as such I need VS 2005 and .net 2.0 (and 3.0 eventually for WinFX) and that precludes using any *nix variant. Also I like to play games like Oblivion, not available for *nix.
I don't see why gameports would be dropped when some people still like to use an analog stick (like me)
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Oh come on, the gameport has been dying since 1996. You can't expect to see legacy support around forever.
*cough*floppydisks*cough*
I have a good old MS Sidewinder Precision Pro that (I think) still works... it did as of last year or whenever it was I last played FS2... :nervous:
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Vista is an improvement in speed, usability, security, and productivity, and as of 5456, it is finally starting to show serious promise.
excuse me while i :lol: my (http://www.myownjournal.com/i/icons/users/7693_awww.jpg) off
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Actually, since "improvement" is relative, and the only thing it can be relative to in WinXP, it's not saying much.
Scratch that, it's not saying ANYthing.
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But Fury, is writing a trivial driver for a parallel or serial port such a bother? New PCs are still shipping with parallel, serial, and PS/2 ports... I'm not so sure about gameports these days. It costs Microsoft next to nothing in financial or manpower terms to write a gameport driver; they're all standardised. I can understand why it might not make it into the beta, but there's no business sense in annoying your customers by not providing as much support as you can.
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Indeed. Imagine all the offices still using parallel printers.
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i can care less about floppy drives serial ports, paralell ports and even the bloody ps2 connectors, but not the ****ing gameport you evil monster!
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I don't care about most of those connectors except for the floppy one, as that's the only way I have to transfer files to my ancient mac. :p
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Well, maybe it's just for the beta. I would hope RC0 or RC1 will support it, because the problem with it is new in 5456. It was working good in Beta 2.
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Writing gameport drivers for analogue sticks is trivial. Vista uses a different driver model from WinXP which keeps the driver in userspace, so it should be even easier to debug them without bringing down the system repeatedly. MS is probably expecting third-party gameport drivers to fill any demand.
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those are like, 30 bucks. Might as well buy a fancy new joystick...
Fancy to me in joystick land starts at $150.
Well... since it resolves in either
(http://www.saitekusa.com/USA/images/product/pcp/x52.jpg)
or
(http://www.thrustmaster.com/eng/images/products/big/hotas.gif)
I guess that's probably a good guess :D A CH FlightStick/Throttle combo would cost even more.
Besides, Gameport to Usb really cost nothing.
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Aren't gaming peripherals like that bloody overkill? I guess the same people buy these things as two high-end crossfire or sli video cards. :rolleyes:
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I liked the old kinky black rubber 1 button Atari 2600 stick.
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Aren't gaming peripherals like that bloody overkill? I guess the same people buy these things as two high-end crossfire or sli video cards. :rolleyes:
*cough* *cough*
That's not me you're speaking of, right?...
...
...
Ok, so what? I had saved some money....
:nervous:
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Aren't gaming peripherals like that bloody overkill? I guess the same people buy these things as two high-end crossfire or sli video cards. :rolleyes:
*cough* *cough*
That's not me you're speaking of, right?...
...
...
Ok, so what? I had saved some money....
:nervous:
Oh, shush. Boaster.
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Aren't gaming peripherals like that bloody overkill? I guess the same people buy these things as two high-end crossfire or sli video cards. :rolleyes:
i have a saitek x45 - i rarely have to touch the keyboard
it's also why i want axis to be bindable to power management
(not my machine)
(http://rob.rnovak.net/content/Graphics/Flightsim/FlightSticks-thumb.jpg)
(http://img.clubic.com/photo/00041668.jpg)
$50
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Gotcha :D
*dances around for no apparent reason*
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DAMN YOU MICROSOFT.
I really loved my old sticks. 'Cause you could MANUALLY adjust the axis on em. (You know, those really hard to turn throttle-like things?) My current is a USB (Logitech Attack 3), but I have a problem with it's sensors being out of whack... so my ship slowly turns to the left without a re-calibration every time I install a joystick-using game. Didn't have that problem with the analogs. You just fiddled with the axis controls until you got what you wanted.
Hell, the only reason ANY of my old gameport joysticks broke was because the actual joystick came apart. And even THEN I could have jury-rigged a stick, alebit without buttons. But now? As mentioned earlier, fancy enchanted electro-motion antimatter quantum particle sensors made with witchcraft and black magic have taken over. And those don't really work after a few years.
[/ :hopping: ]
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Gotcha :D
*dances around for no apparent reason*
:lol: Do you see what I see? :D
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Gotcha :D
*dances around for no apparent reason*
:lol: Do you see what I see? :D
If you're refering to the SUN monitor, which probably goes along with a SPARC workstation, then yes :D
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perhaps he was referring to the assclown who wastes bandwidth message ?
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My concern is that anyone who makes Midi-based keyboard music is going to be very seriously screwed if they use the GamePort Midi interface :(
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most modern midi controllers use USB these days. Hey anyone want to trade a Saitek x45 for a Edirol PCR-30 Midi controller ??? ;)
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Actually, unless you are prepared to pay for another converter, most sound cards come with a Gameport connector, and since every dumb-Midi keyboard certainly uses a Midi out, not a USB connection, it will cause problems with gameport only cards. True, specialist cards won't be affected, but I have a nasty feeling I'm going to be in for a long wait for Vista Drivers for my Audiophile.
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Same here. Maybe I'll build another machine out of old spare parts that can have my gameport for my MIDI keyboard if no workaround is made. :sigh: :doubt:
We have GPS equipment at work, and even Garmin to computer cables are serial, so we often have to get a few of these since recent laptops don't have serial ports anymore: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=387954
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Hmm. The sound card drivers, if they are made for Vista, would have support for the joy port, yes?
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These coming from Uncreative Labs :sigh:
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Game ports, serial ports, and parallel ports (particularly the latter) are cool because you can use them to control electronic devices from your computer. ;7 I got this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1878707159/qid=1152710388/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0489906-3481558?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) several years ago and it's really neat for experimenting with basic interface stuff. :)
1o bucks
Wow, I thought people stopped confusing the letter O and the number 0 (on the keyboard, at least) back in the 80s. :lol: Guess I was wrong. :)
(http://rob.rnovak.net/content/Graphics/Flightsim/FlightSticks-thumb.jpg)
*mocks Kazan*
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I'm sure they will have support, because if they don't then I'm not sure even a USB Gameport adaptor will work because they usually just emulate gameport devices rather than turning the 'stick into a USB device, 'tho I don't know if they all work like that...
If I can just snag one of these http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,40958.0.html Sidewinder convertors I'm sorted 'tho! :D
But yeah, with USB it's a LOT harder to make a custom stick - You need to build a fully fledged friggin' microcontroller before you can even *think* about the pots/buttons/sensors/switches!
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i just noticed my newer computer doesnt even have a gameport (and my old one has 2). i should probibly remedy that with a new sound card.
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I'm still thanking my lucky stars that Grendel from the DBB made the 3D Pro converters that Cyker mentioned above. The MS Sidewinder 3D Pro is, in my humble opinion, the greatest little joystick ever made, and certainly the best one out there for playing Descent. I've been using mine for what has to be almost ten years now, and it's still plugging along, albeit a bit battered. My sound card doesn't have a gameport, so I was forced to get a new stick (Saitek Cyborg Evo) when I got the machine. It's a good stick in its own right, but it still doesn't beat the great feel of the 3D Pro. Now, with the converter, I can keep using it for years to come. :)
Oh, and the Luddite in me greatly rebels against removing compatibility for any sort of old technology, no matter how archaic. Hell, I don't even know why something like DOSBox should be necessary. I should still be able to plop in a floppy-based DOS game and have it run natively, damn it! :p
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i second that last part. i used to have a collection of boot disks for all my old games, i based it of the windows 98 boot disk, added a few nessicary files, sound drivers and such. sometimes id just use the generic disk, other times id have to do something custom. but theese days noone makes dos drivers anymore and my boot disk doesnt work, hell i dont even have a floppy drive anymore.
anyway about those usb-gameport adapters, do they still work with wire it yourself jobs, or only with comercial joysticks? and can you use more than one of them? cause id like to build a virtual cockpit at some point, with aleron, rudder, elevator, throttle (for at least 2 engines), flaps, elevator trim, mixture (at least 2 engines), cowel flaps, prop pitch (2 engines), and wheel breaks (one for each side), and maybe ground steering and pretty much anything else i could think of. thats 16 axes, about 4 gameports worth. or will i have to construct my own interface for all that stuff (with drivers)?
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USB Gameport convertors seem to vary quite wildly - Extrapolating from the two I tried.
One only worked as a 2-axis 2-button stick (USELESS!).
The other worked as a 4-axis 4-button, but My Sidewinder 3D Pro still wouldn't work in digital mode on it, and when I flicked it into CH Flightstick Mode, the Hatswitch wouldn't work.
I hope to get one of Grendel's dongles so I can use it in the future - Most sound cards and mobo's don't even come with joystick ports anymore. If you're REALLY lucky, it'll have a header socket you can plug a DA-15 bracket into.
Nuke: Be aware of that if you get a new soundcard... MAKE SURE it has a joystick port on it! I don't think Craplative Labs's cards do... I ain't touching their cards anyway - X-Fi doesn't even work on Linux, Win98 or Win2k!!!
Mongoose: You got one of Grendel's boxes!?!?! You bastard!!!! :hopping: ;)
I agree with the phasing of old tech 'tho - Hell, I wish my computer still had ISA slots so I could use my AWE32! (Best damned card ever made!!). I've always been an "If it works, go with it!" person; Never liked the whole upgrading for the sake of it thing we get here :(