Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shrike on November 15, 2001, 11:53:00 pm
-
Cross-posted from SB.com
Scenario: In January 2002, a team of scientists discover a way of building a practical FTL drive, and the first prototype drive, given sufficient funding, could be constructed in 8-10 months. This prototype would be sufficiently powerful to move a 10 ton ship at 1 light year every week. 'Production' models (if they are funded, obviously) capable of being built by 2005 (or about 4-5 years for the slow adopters) would be able to have speeds of up to 2 ly/day for military-grade drives, and 1/2 to 1 ly/day for civilian drives, and could theoretically go much higher, given enough time and money invested. Mass limitations on production versions are much higher, in the tens of thousands of tons. Power requirements are extremely high, and would require either a nuclear reactor or large solar 'sail' array (a la BattleTech) to charge the drive capacitor. Mass of the drive and associated machinery would be comparable to ship-based diesel powerplants, so the larger the ship, the larger the drive. (obviously) The drives can only be engaged in microgravity environments equivalent to at least 200 km altitude above Earth.
The work was done in a US university, with members of the team from Canada, Japan, Britain and Germany, giving these nations the designs and know-how immediately. However, an unspecified source got ahold of the design and theory, and this was distributed across the internet in July of 2002, giving effectively universal distribution to governments, corporations and private citizens. The theory and engineering is no more complicated than a nuclear reactor, although the system does not need the extensive safety measures a nuke does, nor the exotic elements. (Uranium fuel) However, efficient drives require precision manufacturing and extensive computer support for navigation. The drives lend themselves to mass production, like giant computer chips, which would reduce the prices significantly.
How do you think this would affect the geopolitical nature of the world? Would there be a sudden outpouring of people? Would space programs suddenly become fashionable again?
-
there is no way to predict what would happen. the space program will probably be renewed, but most people are to stupid to realize how important this would be.
[This message has been edited by Carl (edited 11-15-2001).]
-
Originally posted by Carl:
there is no way to predict what would happen. the space program will probably be renewed, but most people are to stupid to realize how important this would be.
[This message has been edited by Carl (edited 11-15-2001).]
I don't think most people are too stupid, as anyone can be educated on the subject on some level, but I think it will be hard for them to let go of petty things like money and such, and the rich people won't want their lives disrupted or their power threatened by new interstellar corporations. I think there would be a lot of effort, not by the Scientific Community, but by the business community, to interfere with this as much as they could.
------------------
The universe is a big place and an even bigger mystery.
ICQ-117983680
Webmaster SubSpace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Author of A Day in the Life of a Space Pirate
If you have a picture or mod you want hosted, just email me at [email protected] and I can post it on SubSpace Zero. We've got unlimited space(well, nearly :) )
-
Hmmm... interesting. Well, January 2002 - not too far in the future - I'd love to think that there would be immediate extra expansion, but then again these suckers are probably prohibitively expensive for that kind of instant take-off to begin.
And look at the current space program, also. Rockets are damn expensive. Maybe private-owned companies would begin to enter the space race, gain a foothold in exploiting outer space resources. And then of course, there would have to be an army in space to protect the burgeoning community up there... Things would change a heck of a lot.
But you know, what I would really want to know is whether people would use these drives to explore first, or to get to the resource-rich (very rich) asteroid belt first. Getting into the asteroids would definitely be a huge weight off the chest of Earth-based mining-type operations.
And then there would be the sorting out of who owns what. Land rights, but in space. Hoo boy, the possibilities... endless.
-
Chances are an uncontrolled expansion would spawn a bunch oh highly irresponsible nation-states whithin 50 years and the whole thing would be a total mess.
The fact that such a drive would require precision engineering would immediately relegate it to corporates only, I doubt govornments would be able to persuade their parliaments to invest in such a production house - particularly given the current social and economic climates.
Unless such an invention were to be accompanied by something like a matter replicator (a la startrek) i dont think the status quo would change dramatically because people would still have a reason to be greedy.
------------------
Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
-
Does the vessel that holds the drive must be build in space and then build the drive in it? or is it also posible to laucnh the vessel its self into space?
------------------
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/headz.gif)
------------------
[email protected] Staff member of Inferno
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
the the mod place! ("http://www.themodplace.co.uk")
Join our forums at the modplace!
iqc 102628858
-
i think the miliary would be amoung the first to to take this up - they have teh resources and the money to do such things - commericalisation woudl take longer - what are teh insitives to travelt o other solar systems? it would most like be used more for the colonisation of this solar system first bring transit times down the seconds instead of months and months of traveling but unitl there is a reason to move off the earth i think people will stay here with the luxurys we are accustomed too - perhaps the in hospitable countrys populations might move out to see if they can find more fertile lands etc since it could only imprve there lifestyle but they dont have the funding for such a thing - so i think the expansions would be military - then corporate for mining in space etc plu potential discovires with aline life forms that could help create new medicines etc etc etc people emigrating to space thats not going to happen for a long while
-
FTL Travel and space exploration will be just the same as every other invention in history:
The military will exploit it and it will be used as a very effective weapon
The military monopoly on the technology will be toppled by corporations and they will reach and agreement
The rich will use it to live in luxury and make money
The mentally unstable will throw themselves at every chance to improve the technology and make a name for themselves while the corporations sell tried and tested versions of the tech to the public
The technology will become a norm and every household and family in developed nations will own one/some.
This happened with microwaves, cars, guns, computers, everything.
The smart thing to do with FTL would be to export all the pollutive gases to Mars and make it habitable, then ditch the Earth for a coupla hundred years to let it fix itself while the human race explores the galaxy. Or send out a billion FTL greeting probes across the galaxy and see who's out there.
------------------
"I'm huntin' wabbits"----Elmer Fudd
I is internet proficient ("http://www.fattonys.com")
-
Originally posted by an0n:
This happened with microwaves, cars, guns, computers, everything.
yeah, boats, nuclear engines and airbus.
Yeah right (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
cya, need to clean my space shuttle.
-
Nuclear reactors in space would have to be legalized first. Second, space craft are too big to have in your garage. Third, like Dark said, can the ships be launched into space? Or have to be built there?
-
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
Nuclear reactors in space would have to be legalized first. Second, space craft are too big to have in your garage. Third, like Dark said, can the ships be launched into space? Or have to be built there?
However you want to do it. The only requirement is that the drive has to used in microgravity.
-
Originally posted by Shrike:
However you want to do it. The only requirement is that the drive has to used in microgravity.
And if there isn't any microgravity where they travelled to, they would be in some seroius trouble?
------------------
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/headz.gif)
------------------
[email protected] Staff member of Inferno
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
the the mod place! ("http://www.themodplace.co.uk")
Join our forums at the modplace!
iqc 102628858
-
um nuclear reactors can be installed, just crappy ones like on cassini
-
So if you generate a microgravity well at two points you can make an FTL jump hrmm.... interesting military applications...
------------------
Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
-
See: Battletech, like he said. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Like in Battletech, you would have some serious problems with celestial bodies shifting around, and if it travels through realspace some really BIG problems. You might have to go beyond Pluto to use the device.
------------------
-WMCoolmon
-
The immediate effects would depend on whether or not a ship with the drive could launch itself into orbit at a cost significantly less than conventinal rockets. If not, than a single, internation project (or multi-corporation, which to an extent is the same thing) would be formed to build them. This is mainly due to the insane costs of launching anything into orbit. Currently, there are only a handful of facilities that can, and do with any regularity, launch payloads into orbit, and that would hamper construction time and raise cost. Private corporations would have it worse as they would have to rent the facilities or build them.
If the ships with drives can launch themselves, expect a new space race, initially restricted to nations that could afford them, then corporations, and later on, individuals, maybe. Even then, the cost and availablity of the power systems would restrict who could build one early on, as nuclear reactors, and the material necessary to fuel them, are expensive and resticted to a few groups (mostly nations, I know of no individual that owns reactor grade Uranium). Solar sails need to be enormus and require new techniques in manufacturing before they can even be produced, and then are easy to cripple either through accident or foul play (something likely in a space race).
Money runs the world, and beyond it, apparently.
------------------
Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
---------
I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
-
Originally posted by WMCoolmon:
See: Battletech, like he said. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Like in Battletech, you would have some serious problems with celestial bodies shifting around, and if it travels through realspace some really BIG problems. You might have to go beyond Pluto to use the device.
*cough*
The drives can only be engaged in microgravity environments equivalent to at least 200 km altitude above Earth.
*/cough*
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Shrike (edited 11-16-2001).]
-
Originally posted by WarpStar:
I don't think most people are too stupid
30% of all people think the sun orbits the earth.
-
Originally posted by Carl:
30% of all people think the sun orbits the earth.
That high? Man, people are stupid...
-
Originally posted by Carl:
30% of all people think the sun orbits the earth.
Damn, that sounds like half of my Regents Earth Science class.
-
Originally posted by Carl:
30% of all people think the sun orbits the earth.
Yeh, but statistics can be made up to fool anyone on the spot. [homer] 42% of all people know that. [/homer] (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
------------------
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. ("http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/array") Always makes you say wow.
-
Originally posted by Carl:
30% of all people think the sun orbits the earth.
Probably because that's ignorant bushmen in Africa... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) If you said 30% of the Western World's populace thought that, I'd be scared. (and wondering WTF is going on)
-
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
Nuclear reactors in space would have to be legalized first. Second, space craft are too big to have in your garage. Third, like Dark said, can the ships be launched into space? Or have to be built there?
The great thing about space, is that nothing is "illegal". Up there is a lot different than down here. It's a big *** place. You could do something up there that you wouldn't even think of doing down here and get away with it.
------------------
The universe is a big place and an even bigger mystery.
ICQ-117983680
Webmaster SubSpace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Author of A Day in the Life of a Space Pirate
If you have a picture or mod you want hosted, just email me at [email protected] and I can post it on SubSpace Zero. We've got unlimited space(well, nearly :) )
-
Originally posted by Carl:
30% of all people think the sun orbits the earth.
Oh damn, I didn't know that, I guess I"m stupid (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Seriously, Other inventions would probably follow suit, like hot fusion reactors and grav generators. Life support, and agridomes, etc.
------------------
The universe is a big place and an even bigger mystery.
ICQ-117983680
Webmaster SubSpace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Author of A Day in the Life of a Space Pirate
If you have a picture or mod you want hosted, just email me at [email protected] and I can post it on SubSpace Zero. We've got unlimited space(well, nearly :) )
-
Originally posted by WarpStar:
The great thing about space, is that nothing is "illegal". Up there is a lot different than down here. It's a big *** place. You could do something up there that you wouldn't even think of doing down here and get away with it.
Except when they send an ICBM after your *** . (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
-
I wonder if they've built and ICBM yet that has the ability to fly to the moon, I doubt it, at least not guidance wise. If they did, I guess they'd be called IPBM's (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
------------------
The universe is a big place and an even bigger mystery.
ICQ-117983680
Webmaster SubSpace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Author of A Day in the Life of a Space Pirate
If you have a picture or mod you want hosted, just email me at [email protected] and I can post it on SubSpace Zero. We've got unlimited space(well, nearly :) )
-
You could do something up there that you wouldn't even think of doing down here and get away with it.
Technically, you can do what you like down here as well. Its just that when you do stuff down here you're forced to do "acceptable" things by the rest of the populous.
If everyone just did what they thought was best for themselves and didn't interfere with everyone else, things would progress a lot faster. After all, selfishness is the single greatest driving force behind just about everything.
-
Originally posted by WarpStar:
Other inventions would probably follow suit, like hot fusion reactors...
I had heard that we already HAVE a fusion reactor, in some university lab somewhere, powered by lasers. But, it only produces something like $90 worth of energy for every $100 put into it. Plus it stopped working after about 2 seconds, since the lasers melted. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
-
Its a little daft banning nuclear reactors in space - The amount of radiation up there already is very high. So high, in fact, that a Nuclear reactor wouldnt make any difference.
Oh..and come to that, did you know if we dont crack fusion/solar power in the next 30 years we'll all be running of nuclear power plants?
Just shows how most of these so-called environmentalists are just thugs with nothing else to complain about.
------------------
Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
-
Originally posted by wEvil:
Its a little daft banning nuclear reactors in space - The amount of radiation up there already is very high. So high, in fact, that a Nuclear reactor wouldnt make any difference.
Oh..and come to that, did you know if we dont crack fusion/solar power in the next 30 years we'll all be running of nuclear power plants?
Just shows how most of these so-called environmentalists are just thugs with nothing else to complain about.
One thing - Imagine the effect of a nuclear reactor melting down in low earth orbit.... depending on the debris that survives re-entry, there could be massive contamination.... there are still warnings about eating sheep from certains parts of aberdeen as a result of the Chernobyl accident.
Also, it's to do with the banning of space-based nuclear weapons.
-
i was talking about interlpanetary vehicles, not earth orbit vehicles.
------------------
Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
-
Originally posted by an0n:
///Or send out a billion FTL greeting probes across the galaxy and see who's out there.
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) The proof that there is intelligent life Out There™ is in the fact that they have not made contact with Earth. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/hammer.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 11-17-2001).]
-
man u lot dont know much, nukes are already in space, what do u think powers the Voyager space probes?? yep u guess it nukes, they have about 50 years to go before they run out hehehe. And also i can almost guarentee they use a nuke for powering the ISS and possibly have tactical nukes up there in some god dam satallite ready to bomb afganistan or some other country thus saving flying it from the USA over all the western countries.
------------------
http://www.themodplace.co.uk
http://www.avengershome.co.uk
-
ICMB can reach out over 10,000 miles, it can't make it to the moon but they sure can hit ur *** waaay up there, ISS is only a few hundred miles up.
There is a reason why they are banned in space. A Russian satillite had a nuclear reactor on it and something went wrong and it was destroyed sending plutonium into the atmosphere. They've say that they can detect plutonium in everybody, but in small amounts. I wonder why so many people have get cancer now.
Fusion reactors are held together with powerful magnets, but for some reason the plasma always leaks out. Hence, why they are using them to develop rockets. I don't argue with me on this, because I had to do a 5 typed page report on fusion reactors and plasma rockets.
[This message has been edited by CODEDOG ND (edited 11-17-2001).]
-
Originally posted by sandwich:
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) The proof that there is intelligent life Out There™ is in the fact that they have not made contact with Earth. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/hammer.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
They would get blown away (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
*bzzzbzzzt..ship lands*
*door opens aliens step out*
*Farm sees big light gets gun go's out side*
*see weirdo's*
Farmer: Are you some kinda super bugs that want to eat my crops?
alien: We come in piece
Farmer: WTF!?!? Screw you BOOM BOOM BOOM!!
Farmer to wife: Were the hell is my dinner!!
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
------------------
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/headz.gif)
------------------
[email protected] Staff member of Inferno
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
the the mod place! ("http://www.themodplace.co.uk")
Join our forums at the modplace!
iqc 102628858
-
A plasma rocket wouldn't work.
sure the thrust would be huge, but since it breaks ALL matter down into its' constituent elements there wouldn't be much left of the launchpad, would there?
Fusion generators dont work because the magnetic field is;
A) Too Low powered
B) Cannot contain the plasma if it 'punctures' a certain point..I.E, if there is a pressure inconsistency the plasma will fly out of the field and rupture any matter-based containment device until it cools down.
The way to get around B is having the plasma circle around in a torus shape (this is what a tokamak is, kids) - this gets rid of SOME of the pressure differences.
To get around A though you need to have a large energy input to actually have a powerful enough magnetic field to contain the plasma (which you have to get from heating hydrogen gas to >14million degrees kelvin)
Basically until someone comes up with superstrong magnets and something on the level of a miniaturised nuke to get the gas to fuse, fusion will be relegated to small scale laboratory testing (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
------------------
Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
-
Originally posted by wEvil:
A plasma rocket wouldn't work.
sure the thrust would be huge, but since it breaks ALL matter down into its' constituent elements there wouldn't be much left of the launchpad, would there?
In a plasma rocket the magnets can contain the plasma on everyside except the rear which propels you along. testing of the rocket on a probe is supposed to be completed by 2006. Anybody heard of DS1? It uses Ions and runs at about the same speed as a plasma rocket but with the ions you can't throttle it like you can plasma and chemical rockets. To keep the launch pad from burning up is to use chemical boosters like todays shuttle. Then once at a safe distance then you can fire them. They've already built the rocket, they just need to go through all the safety procautions as usual which take forever.
also here is one of my references i used for the paper, i cant find the bookmarks for the others. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/plasma_propulsion_000616.html ("http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/plasma_propulsion_000616.html")
[This message has been edited by CODEDOG ND (edited 11-17-2001).]
-
here was the other one most of its the same stuff but goes a little more into detail
http://www.media.mit.edu/~rahulb/theArts/text/papers/VASIMR.pdf ("http://www.media.mit.edu/~rahulb/theArts/text/papers/VASIMR.pdf")
-
Even if fusion wouldn't be possible on a large scale, it doesn't take that much plasma to create a self-sustaining reaction. Also, some of the power could be redirected to the magnetic fields.
------------------
The universe is a big place and an even bigger mystery.
ICQ-117983680
Webmaster SubSpace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Author of A Day in the Life of a Space Pirate
If you have a picture or mod you want hosted, just email me at [email protected] and I can post it on SubSpace Zero. We've got unlimited space(well, nearly :) )
-
Originally posted by darkage:
They would get blown away (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
*bzzzbzzzt..ship lands*
*door opens aliens step out*
*Farm sees big light gets gun go's out side*
*see weirdo's*
Farmer: Are you some kinda super bugs that want to eat my crops?
alien: We come in piece
Farmer: WTF!?!? Screw you BOOM BOOM BOOM!!
Farmer to wife: Were the hell is my dinner!!
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Just like the opening scene of Star Trek Enterprise, fisrt episode. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://www.geocities.com/sandvich/index.html"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
-
Actually, containment of the Plasma isn't a problem. It's just that it takes more power to sustain the fields than the reaction gives out, at the moment at least.
And of course, magnets aren't the only way to contain the plasma, there is a tokomak reactor that uses lasers apparently.
------------------
Chickens are strange things really. They pop up whenever you don't expect them.
"Why do I have a conscience, all it does is **** with me, why do I have this torment all I wanna do is **** it away"- Korn
"When you're ripe, you'll bleed outta control" Deftones
HERE FISHY FISHY FISHY!
HELLO OLLY! IT'S A DEAD OLLY!
-
Isn't there a tokamak on England that actually generates 3% more power than it consumes? I read something about that on Slashdot a while ago, can't find the link now...
-
There might be, I havn't really checked up on the subject recently...
------------------
Chickens are strange things really. They pop up whenever you don't expect them.
"Why do I have a conscience, all it does is **** with me, why do I have this torment all I wanna do is **** it away"- Korn
"When you're ripe, you'll bleed outta control" Deftones
HERE FISHY FISHY FISHY!
HELLO OLLY! IT'S A DEAD OLLY!
-
8 lasers fire on a deuterium/tritium pellet.
This is a very short fusion reaction though, and its not magnetic containment, its intertial containment.
Pretty useless for sustained power output but could work as an efficient way of starting the generator.
------------------
Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and ***** slap them upside the head.
-
If people thought a faster than light was important, we'd be putting money into the space program instead of bombing countries no one cared about six weeks ago and probably won't care abut againg in six months time.
-
Originally posted by sandwich:
Just like the opening scene of Star Trek Enterprise, fisrt episode. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Hehehehehe, I doubt the Klingon said "I come in peace" More like "Give me your interstellar communicator" (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
------------------
The universe is a big place and an even bigger mystery.
ICQ-117983680
Webmaster SubSpace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Author of A Day in the Life of a Space Pirate
If you have a picture or mod you want hosted, just email me at [email protected] and I can post it on SubSpace Zero. We've got unlimited space(well, nearly :) )