Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Wing Commander Saga => Topic started by: Dishwasher on July 17, 2006, 08:38:43 pm
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But what on earth did you guys do to piss the CIC off this much... I started this toic over there but it was closed within minutes :(.
http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=20402
Saga is by far my fav. WC project and I really hope you will finish it someday.. until then I will just be poking you guys about a release date over here instead off at the CIC.. I hope others will find this place soon to.
Good luck on the project.
Dish.
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Insert plasma core... target "Dishwasher"... OPEN FIRE!
:welcome:
Welcome to the HLP! Exits are located to the right, left, up, down, and 4th-dimensionally. However all of them are blocked, except the 4-d one, and no one's yet figured how to reach it. You might try the ducts if you're desparate to leave, but beware Carl, our lunch-loving Shivan. Throw him your lunch and he'll leave you alone (usually). Flamethrowers are located underneath all seats; budgets have recently been reduced due to politics (don't ask) and the flamers have been filled with Holy Water. Other weapons are located in the secure lockers, but only and admin, :v:, or hyper-intelligent shade of blue may open them. Thank you and enjoy your stay! You are my fifth kill! :)
Seeya! :yes:
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It's very simple:
1) Bandit LOAF blames FreeSpace for the collapse of the Wing Commander franchise.
2) Since WCSaga uses the FreeSpace engine, they incur guilt by association.
3) Much of the CIC forum takes Bandit LOAF's word for things without bothering to do research on them.
4) Thus the WCSaga team has acquired an unjust and inaccurate reputation among much of the WC fan base.
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Indeed, it is such as shame that LOAF happens to be an administrator there. Without him relationships between our two communities would be much friendlier. But no, his personal crusade against anything FreeSpace has made him to spread half-truths and outright lies throughout WC community, and because he is an admin everyone believes him. There might be cases where WCS or HLP members might have acted offensively against LOAF and his lies, which is a shame because these cases have only benefitted LOAF and his personal crusade. But HLP and WCS members are far from being the jerks and assholes LOAF has made us and them to be.
In any case, welcome to HLP Dishwasher and enjoy your stay. :)
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Thanks Dishwasher for your try at CIC but as Goober and Fury mentioned Loaf has some personal problems with us.
I don't want to go into details because I am sick of Loaf turning everything around...even if we would say we found a cure for cancer he would make it look like we invented cancer in the first place to sell the cure...just as an example.
In this special case I don't have any idea what made Loaf belive that we where threatening the HW2 mod...especial since czacen posted openly that we wheren't the one who PMed him.
You can read it for yourself here czacen post (http://www.wcsaga.com/~team/Lars/showpost.php.htm)
Well I hope you will enjoy your stay and we will try to continue our updates as we can and support anyone who asks us here...since we can no longer do that in the CIC what I personaly feel sad about. Just because of one or two persons we aren't able to support those who are interested.
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I think I do not have to mention, that this statement was deleted without comment by the CIC staff :)
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Hiya Dishwasher, FS2 & WC Rocks the hizoose, Its a shame we all cant get along.... :( but welcome again
:welcome:
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It's very simple:
1) Bandit LOAF blames FreeSpace for the collapse of the Wing Commander franchise.
2) Since WCSaga uses the FreeSpace engine, they incur guilt by association.
3) Much of the CIC forum takes Bandit LOAF's word for things without bothering to do research on them.
4) Thus the WCSaga team has acquired an unjust and inaccurate reputation among much of the WC fan base.
About point 1, I never got that one.. I was delighted with the freespace series... It was original had a good storyline amazing cap ships cool missions. I think freespace 1 and 2 where awesome games.
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Well you could ask for the reason...but don't wonder if you get banned. ^_^
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Well everything I say about it get's closed.. apparantly it's not considered something that should be discussed in public... hell if I would act like that on the Queens of the Stone Age forum (I'm a mod there) I would be burned down by my own admin LOL.
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No offense taken, Dishwasher. We are open to honest questions around here.
About point number 1:
Someone awhile ago ran a wonderful regression statistic (I think it was Milo), but I don't have it now (my old computer crashed).
Anyways, Freespace 2 came at kind of the last gasp of the long reign of the space flight sim. It was a great game, although the publicity around it could have been done better (for instance, I loved FS1, but was totally unaware of the existence of FS2 until I saw it in a bargin bin at Media Play. That's my ancedotal proof, but there is more proof. Marketing was a little weak, that must be admitted.).
What we have going on here is that Loaf has come to believe that since FS2 was the last, the shortcomings that occurred regarding it's publicity and marketing (and what he considers to be poor gameplay, although I wonder if he has ever played it) were responsible for actually killing the space flight sim genre, thus making compaines like Origin think it would not be profitable to produce another Wing Commander.
In other words, the claim is "Freespace killed Wing Commander."
However, this is a case of spurious association, because there had been a steady decline in space sim sales already (due to market flooding by a rather large line of lack-luster or poorly executed titles [a la Battlecruiser pre-patch] eager to take a share in the profits and growing interest in other genres). FS 2 inherited a market that already had one foot in the grave, so to speak, and would have required a great deal of effort to revive. Could FS2 have been the magic bullet to spark new interest? Possibly, but somehow word and availablity were not up to the task. But that is another discussion altogether.
The point is, the regression analysis showed that there was no statistically significant change in the slope of space flight sim sales and profitablity at the data point occupied by FS2. What does that mean? It means that FS2 did not kill the space flight sim, nor did it actually do it any harm (whereas other titles had), it just merely failed to revive it.
That's a different story alltogether than "Freespace killed Wing Commder." It's more like "Freespace 3 and the next Wing Commander shared the same fate."
(To HLP hardcores, please forgive the mention of Freespace 3! :))
There was a time when this info was posted at the CIC (it got me banned once for bringing it back up), but as you can guess, it has all been deleted by the admins.
It's much easier to appear right if one hides all the evidence of an opposing view. Just as it is easier to excuse the senseless banning of all Saga members by hiding the post by the person who exhonerated them of the charges being levied against them.
That being said, we do not wish any ill to the CIC community. I want to make that point very explicit.
And welcome aboard, Dishwasher.
Oh, and for the record, I actually like that HW2 mod a lot.
:welcome:
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You got banned for posting the above information?
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Dosn't wonder me.
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Gheheh.. FreeSpace 2 got a damn good review in a dutch gaming magazine, after it's release I was laying on the loca retailers doormat to get it.. finished the game in days... then finished it again directly afterwards.
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I cant find the HW2 mod, i used to love the strategyplanet site, but it doesnt appear to work right now for some reason?
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@ Dishwasher,
Yes, I actually was. :)
Let me count the bans:
1st: when things blew up, I tried to help both sides calm down and mentioned I thought Loaf was too hard on Saga and should perhaps apologize, since the Saga team was apologizing for how they had handled a certain situation (this was before I was a part of the team).
2nd: Banned for quoting regression statistics.
3rd: Banned for using a common phrase without knowing that Loaf would construe it as a personal attack on a specific personal challenge that he faces (I only found out after the fact that he had that challenge, and certainly wasn't trying to attack him. In fact, I was just using the phrase to let him know that I think I come off as sincere when people talk to me face to face). This resulted in a permanent ban, by the way (even after I found out about his challenge, flet bad about how he thought I was attacking him personally, and tried to clear things up with him).
My crime was in supporting Saga. Everything else just seemd to be a case of, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregard the rest."
But I need to stop. I don't want to start a string of CIC bashing. We have nothing against the community, we have many friends there. I have nothing personal against Loaf, I'm just sorry that he seems to think I do.
@ Dekker. This new HW2 mod is currently under construction, but can be found in the "Fan Projects" section of crius.net. Check it out, it looks very good.
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Welcome to HLP Dishwasher :)
Regarding the CIC, the situation or personal feelings, I highly suggest that we just drop the entire thing (I mean all of you :) ), since it's already getting to ridiculous to even discuss about it. All posts were we (or czazen himself) said we didn't do anything to the HW 2 mod (or the nexus-mod :wtf: now this is even new to me ) get deleted immediately so that no one sees them, so it's quite obvious what methods are being used to justify our leave/extermination.
But with this sort of behaviour and such actions used, I can't see any way I can participate in that community any longer myself, and obviously we are also no longer welcome over there. I just hope that people will get a little more suspicious about certain statements and build up their own meaning about the situation, instead of believing everything they are being told to believe (but this may be quite hard when the evidence vanish).
Since we are no longer allowed to post on CIC, we will not be able to reach a few of our fans, but everyone is welcome visiting us here for receiving information (or support later on), and our website is out there too. I'm sure everyone interested in this game will be able to find us (even google, though not on the very first link :) ) We will continue our way of regular updates so you people see what's going on.
Well, as I already said, thanks for all the sympathy (to the HLP admins too), but discussing these things in puplic will most certainly just lead into a stupid community war and I don't want this to happen ( we all got better things to do). Most important, I don't want to see the HLP-Boards getting poluted by such a big pile of BS. This here was always a very friendly place to visit and discuss, and I want it to stay this way.
I will now leave this topic open for a couple of few hours and will close it then (around 23.00 pm german time). Please keep it clean for the time being. Any further questions regarding this matter should be issued to PM's. If you want to discuss the relations between WC und FS2, it would be nice if a admin (or a mod who knows how to ) can split the thread (but keep that one clean too ). Thank you.
Starman
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Ok let's leave it at that...
Euhm
Any help still requierd for the mod?
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I will now leave this topic open for a couple of few hours and will close it then (around 23.00 pm german time).
Isn't that would CIC would do? ;) :p
I recommend leaving it open. Encourage the fans not to beat a dead horse, but be willing to answer questions if they ask. :)
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Dishwasher,
If you are interested in helping, perhaps PM or e-mail Tolwyn, Starman, or Lars. Let them know what you have to offer and they can take it from there.
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Isn't that would CIC would do? ;) :p
I recommend leaving it open. Encourage the fans not to beat a dead horse, but be willing to answer questions if they ask. :)
Calm down, Sternie :)
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I am calm, just want to keep things away from spreading any further :)
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It's okay. I've said all I think I really should say (and probably a bit more than that, actually).
I appreciate that Starman is trying to keep this from elevating into a bashing/flaming session. We all need to vent sometimes, but certainly we don't want to do it in a way that ends up causing more problems.
That being said, Dishwasher, tell anyone you know who wants to know about how Saga is doing to come here. We are happy to answer questions, provide updated, etc...
BTW, I can tell Starman is still calm. Notice the :). If he was angry, we might see a :mad: or a :hopping: or if we really got under his skin he might just go ahead and fire a torpedo at that destructable underwear drawer we have been talking about. We wouldn't want that to happen, would we? :)
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I didn't especially want to post here, but KrisV asked me to post a proper reply before we move to further shut off our connections to the Saga project.
The argument made here about me is purposefully inaccurate. Yes, it is true - distinctly true - that I dislike Freespace and blame it for the cancellation of Privateer Online. These are, as suggested here, simple facts about me that can be easily verified in our archive.
What does not follow, however, is how this is connected to the Saga mod. Ask yourselves: if my hatred of Freespace were connected to a desire to do in Saga, why would it take *five years*? Five years of paying to host their site, five years of running their forums, five years of glowing news reports on our front page. The idea that your recent problems can be blamed on a flew in a single man is entirely wrong.
Furthermore, it was not *my* decision to remove the Wing Commander from the Saga. It was the decision of the entire staff, a group of people who usually function from keeping me in check when I make rash mistakes. You're not facing an angry LOAF, you're facing everyone.
Many facts above are similarly misleading. For instance, the claim that czachen's post was removed without comment - there is, quite literally, a comment explaining why it was removed (it was done at his request). Claims of secret deleted posts are wild and inaccurate - looking at our archive can well show why anyone was banned.
Consider this in casting me as the sole villain preventing 'Wing Commander/Freespace relations' - I don't post here. How could I possibly be the aggressor? No - it's people like an0n and Kalefierth and Sphynx who come to the Wing Commander side of the street and intentionally start trouble... and then come back here and blame it in grand obscurity on the people whose job it is to shut them down.Y es, Sphynx has been banned - but not for any of the grand lofty reasons he's given you... he came to troll and stayed to insult me personally. Boo.
The Saga team was banned and Saga was banned from our news because they have been harassing other mod teams - Freelancer, Nexus and, yes, Homeworld groups. They believe that their decision to copy 3D models from Wing Commander III somehow gives them control over those ships entirely and that they must police the world against anyone else who would dare use ships from the most popular game in the Wing Commander series.
They *know* this is wrong, and so contact people like Bob McDob privately to threaten them. We let them do this and it ruined two projects. If you don't find Saga in the news or a Saga link from the front page at the CIC, *this is why*. We can't stand it no longer.
It is *not* out of hatred for Freespace - a search of our archives will quickly find my joking about how putting Wing Commander into the game will improve Freespace immensly - but because of the actions of the team itself. The project looks great, it should be fun and it certainly sucks that we can't promote it or host it or anything of that sort... but their egos have damaged the rest of the community, and we absolutely had to put a stop to it.
There, that's it, my "right of reply". Do with it what you will - anyone may contact me privately to discuss the matter further.
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The funny thing is that he is denying deleted posts, etc... to Dishwasher when Dishwasher himself has stated that he has seen them (thing is, I can think of 2 entire threads that were mysteriously deleted off the top of my head: The one in which I was orignially banned and then the one with our press release talking about the magazine article. As I recall, there were others as well. There were enough that this time, we had the common sense to make a copy of a post we knew would be deleted. How could we predict something would be deleted if it hadn't happened before? Food for thought.).
"That thing you noticed isn't really happening."
It kind of makes you question the rest of his reasoning.
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Seems that I got someone's attention over there, as now the thread about the article is accessible again.
Very clever.
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Oh, and for the record, this is in which the phrase that was taken as a personal attack was located.
http://www.crius.net/zone/showpost.php?p=302313&postcount=36
Read it. Does it sound like I was trying to attack him? I certainly wasn't, and I had no idea he had a history of some visual problems (which I certainly sympathise with, my sister is totally deaf and so I know what that general category of things can be like). What I was saying is that I have a hard time expressing my intent over the internet, but that I thought if we could speak face to face and see eye to ey, he would get the point that I was sincere and not faking my attitude.
I even apologized for the incident, since I could see how he could have taken it that way. For me, I was just using a commonly used phrase in my part of the country, and had no idea it could sound offensive.
I say these things, not as an attack, but as an opportunity to tell the truth about myself and what happened and as an opportunity to let people see how some people's perception of us as individuals and as a team may be somewhat inaccurate.
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What does not follow, however, is how this is connected to the Saga mod. Ask yourselves: if my hatred of Freespace were connected to a desire to do in Saga, why would it take *five years*? Five years of paying to host their site, five years of running their forums, five years of glowing news reports on our front page. .
I find it hard to understand how you can imply youve been all lovey dovey to Saga for all these years. Noone from Saga has done anything "wrong" for a long time yet now most of the Staff is banned because you jumped to false conclusions. Anyone whos been following this for a certian length of time knows this was just the final excuse you needed to get rid of the mod you've hated since the beginning. Its just a shame for you it was based on an entirely made up claim, but presumably you had already taken it too far to take anything back without making yourself look bad.
the idea that your recent problems can be blamed on a flew in a single man is entirely wrong
"Entirely wrong"? ...Okay lets think about it.
1. It was you that first implied it was us in the Homeworld thread (your post which for the moment at least is still around)
2. It was you that first accused us in the Saga forum, (as we can see in the thread that has been brought back to life)
3. It was you that banned most of the staff.
I'll let others decide how these facts relate to your above comment! :D
Many facts above are similarly misleading. For instance, the claim that czachen's post was removed without comment - there is, quite literally, a comment explaining why it was removed (it was done at his request).
Well where is it then? As far as I can see there is no mention to the fact that Saga had nothing to do with the czacen insident at all aside from 2 unregistered people that were brushed off, but theres still lots of posts about how Saga has been harrassing czacen. If someone were to only see what you let them see, I wonder if you think that would give them an accurate impression of the situation. Notice how when Dishwater posted his message he still had no idea czacen already said it wasnt us. Think about it.
The Saga team was banned and Saga was banned from our news because they have been harassing other mod teams - ..., Homeworld groups
So even though czacen said we had nothing to do with it, and you seem to acknolwedge reading his post, Saga are still guilty of harassing czacen? How does that make sence! :lol: Any lukers reading this should take note. :yes:
They believe that their decision to copy 3D models from Wing Commander III somehow gives them control over those ships entirely and that they must police the world against anyone else who would dare use ships from the most popular game in the Wing Commander series.
Thats a strawman, and I think you may even be starting to believe it yourself.
Claims of secret deleted posts are wild and inaccurate - looking at our archive can well show why anyone was banned.
Several posts were made in the Homeworld thread about how we were responsible, and a news post in the Saga forum got mysteriously deleted (along with banning most of the staff) after several comments by you and a few others that said Saga were harrassing czacen. After czacen said we had nothing to do with it, you didnt take back your comments or set the record straight. People were still posting that Saga were harrassing czacen in another thread, even when czacen had already exonerated us, and no one corrected them. Why would you allow these people to believe this? To me it looks like "certian people" want to keep quiet the fact that they made a mistake.
It is true that some members of Saga made some mistakes in the past and have apologised for them, but some people dont seem to care if Saga didnt do anything to czacen, we will always be guilty, forever, and anyone can make up whatever they like about Saga in the future and its all perfectly fine and honest. I think this whole Homeworld harassing buisness has shown certian people to be pretty cowardly, becuase they cant stand up and say they were wrong.
Im only sorry that so many CIC people will not know what really happened. I have no ill will against the CIC, apparently just the actions of a few that control it which is also a shame.
EDIT: Yes we can see why people were banned, since the thread you deleted originally has returned to life. You banned most of the Staff because you said they were harrassing czacen.
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Ed,
It's okay to post if you keep it civil. It's okay for us to state the truth here. We aren't out to attack anyone, but we have a right to say what we have been prevented from saying.
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I dont know why they undeleted this thread, it shows a good example of what I was talking about in my post. What do people think when they see a thread like this? What are they meant to think? Everyone knows the answer.
http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=20327
Notice how Loaf says he "knows" it was us, well now we know he made that up. He didnt know at all. But anyone else that didnt know better would just assume he'd actually checked his facts.
But this behaviour is presumably considered honest and perfectly legitimate.
I still cant find this post Loaf talked about which explained why czacens post got deleted. If its so hard to find, it might as well not exist, especially as this thread has appeard again. The only place I can see that suggests czacen already said we didnt do anything is from a couple of unregistered people in another thread, if it werent for those posts theres nothing I can see.
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They undeleted it because I said they deleted it, as I mentioned earlier.
This is as per the modus operandi that we have been talking about. Mind games and manipulation.
We delete it, Sphynx says we deleted it, we undelete it and then accuse Sphynx of lying.
Pretty simple.
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The Saga team was banned and Saga was banned from our news because they have been harassing other mod teams - Freelancer, Nexus and, yes, Homeworld groups. They believe that their decision to copy 3D models from Wing Commander III somehow gives them control over those ships entirely and that they must police the world against anyone else who would dare use ships from the most popular game in the Wing Commander series.
Let me clear this up, too. We did have some members of our team who were upset because someone from a Freelancer mod seemed to be using the actual textures that one of our team members had created without giving credit. It is just a matter of courtesty to acknowledge the people's work whom you have used. The issue was not that they were using WC3 ships. Saga did not claim ownership of WC3 ship designs or textures, but some team members wanted the courtesy of having others ask before using textures that we have created (that reproduce WC3 textures) and then give proper recognition. Quarto and Eder have done the same thing with people using their models and textures in other projects, such as the WC1 remake.
Now, we have clearly admitted that some of our team members overreacted in that instance, and we have apologized profusely. We have not acted that way again, and certainly the team's intentions were never to kill that mod.
Saying that we claimed ownership of WC3 designs and textures is plain and simple a straw man argument. It takes no skill to beat up a straw man.
Yes, some members of our team made mistakes then, but we have done all we can to make things right, and we do what we can to support other fan projects.
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It is *not* out of hatred for Freespace - a search of our archives will quickly find my joking about how putting Wing Commander into the game will improve Freespace immensly.
Doesn't that sound more like a put down and less like a joke to anyone else?
A search of their archives will also reveal a great deal of hatred for Freespace and direct criticism of us for using the FS engine, so I don't see how this can be valid.
Once again, we have no ill will towards anyone at the CIC. We regret that these hard feelings exist against us, especially because our best efforts at reconciliation seem to have failed.
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Not exactly right Sphynx, let me clear this up a little.
Well, the freelancer-Mod. What should I say that I didn't said very often :( Really big error from me, born in a very emotional moment and resulted in a harsh thread. But I was angry about having one of our models (not only the textures) which was to that time still in our mod,( we have removed it now) seeing used unaltered in another mod. It should have been done in a more civilized manner, but I can't make it unhappen now. Though I have apologized and cleared things out personal with warzog, and at least for us two the issue was solved. It's sad that other people can't get over this too. BTW, I also apologized in a bigger post by the entire public, but unfortuntely that thread got deleted too. Have it your way.
It certainly didn't killed the mod :rolleyes: Members were already leaving, and warzog continued his work (even if he said he planned on leaving before this **** happened) for nearly a year and was releasing stuff.
Regarding the Homeworld-Mod, like said many times, we had nothing to do with that. This was posted from both sides, now people cannot move around and yell " it must have been the saga-team, they did something similar one year ago, and now we Know they are all asses". What's the next we are being marked guilty for ? Global warming ? Come on, that's hilarious.
As for the nexus-mod, a little clarification would be appreciated. Were are the problems there ? I heard nothing negative, nor did we had any contact in such a manner. So what's the matter ?
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Thanks for the clarification, Starman. Like I said, I wasn't a team member then.
I certainly wasn't trying to criticize you. We all make mistakes, and I respect you for how you tried to fix things.
(P.S. I just got a PM from Al Gore. He said the Bush administration is to blame for global warming, so at least we aren't being blamed for that.) :)
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Still it is bullock's oc to hold right's over models that are created by origin.. that's the ****ed up thing about making mods..
IE
I pissed of quite a lot of audio traders because I released QOTSA concerts in a more user friendly mp3 format instead of FLAC. Tapers and traders hoding rights over a bands audio is just retarded.
Weird thing is though.. back in the day I was working on the UT mod Tolwyn actually offered me SAGA meshes and textures to use.
How is that for blockading fan mods.
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Still it is bullock's oc to hold right's over models that are created by origin.. that's the ****ed up thing about making mods..
The rights for WC, the models design and everything else is of course property of Origin (probably for the next 1000 years :) ) and we never declined (sp?) that.
But AFAIK this model has been completly remodelled and textured, and that's why the re-creator deserve credits for all his work IMO. It then turned out, that the credits weren't the the problem in this matter (I was badly mistaken with that), since warzog had a "additional models by WC-Saga" in his credits. It was more the fact that we were using this model and it wasn't meant for being released elsewhere. (Since Tolwyn once was in this mod too, there were some cooperation with older models, but that hasn't included that one). But as I said, this issue is cleared out and we found an agreement with Warzog.
BTW, what does IE means in your post ? :)
P.S. as Goober suggested, I keep the thread open. Discussing the problem might help solve it. Just keep it clean guys :)
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Weird thing is though.. back in the day I was working on the UT mod Tolwyn actually offered me SAGA meshes and textures to use.
How is that for blockading fan mods.
Exactly, and as far as I know Saga will come with (at least eventually) the ability for fans to take what was done in the mod and use it to make their own mods for WC in the FS engine. If Saga hates other Wing Commander mods so much as certain people make out (they literally say that) why on earth would Saga allow people to do this?! :lol: Isnt that just ridiculous? So "certian people" have demonized Saga, and thats the only correct word to describe it.
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BTW, what does IE means your post?
Honestly I dunno... playing guitar and reading and replying into this forum screws my typing ;).
I am btw offended by the way topics get locked and dissapear/reapear on the CIC forum... that's not right.
That topic with the article I am pretty sure it wasn't there this morning.
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It seems more and more to me that there has been some enormous miscommunication between SAGA and CIC.
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[Honestly I dunno... playing guitar and reading and replying into this forum screws my typing ;).
:lol:
It seems more and more to me that there has been some enormous miscommunication between SAGA and CIC.
Maybe something, but certainly not all. I think there are also a lot of personal issues involved, on both sides I might add.
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@ Dishwasher,
About that thread with the article not being there this morning...
You can bet your galoshes that it wasn't. I remember the day when it was deleted (and then they tried to blame the deletion on us, which was delightful). I remember it so distinctly because I was so amuzed by LeHah's comment that he didn't need to go into a sewer to know it stinks, and by that same reasoning he knew that it was us who was harassing czechen without even bothering to ask him. That was golden. (Note: apply some light-hearted sarcasm to that last sentence).
I am glad that you have come right our and and said that you saw it happen, while in his little visit here LOAF tried to tell you that such things don't happen over there. It is nice to have the person he is trying to convince call him on one of his mind games while it is in process.
You will note that I made a specific mention of when it reappeared, because I felt fairly certain that the undeletion would be used in a mind game again to try to show where I had "misrepresented" the facts.
So, I am glad, Dishwasher, that you have made this comment on the process, and that you have openly declared that you saw this happen.
Have there been misunderstandings between the two parties? Certainly. However, I think Ed pegged it when he said that while it may have started out with misunderstandings (perhaps with an undercurrent of preconceived notions), it has sadly expanded into full-blown demonization.
It's hard to reason with someone when they are convinced that you are evil (yes, we were even called evil, and moustache twirling villians, and more), and that no matter what you do and how civil you are, deep down you are a jerk. That is the uphill journey that we tread for so long.
Our hope is that when Saga is released, word will trickle over yonder and all of the people who have waited so patiently for it will be able to enjoy it. As I said, we have no ill will towards them.
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I also just registered also as I may have a few more Q's to bug the saga team with :D.
Also notice it took Bandit Loaf a grand total of 4 minutes to decide to ban the entire saga team in response to Dyrets post. Surely this was well thought out and not a decision made in anger. I understand how difficult it is to admit a mistake it gets even harder the longer it goes on. I do believe there is no going back to cic for the saga team.
I feel bad that all this crap is happening but it may all be for the best anyway. I hate having multiple accounts to post at other places having to remember passwords and such. Thats my problem with the whole thing as I checked both sites almost daily.
Later on
Hide Scooby :shaking:
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:welcome:
Stone,
Glad to have you here and certainly feel free to ask any questions that you want. :)
Thanks for the support.
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So I read quickly through the stuff here...and that is a lot.
First I want to ask everyone to keep a cool head.
As to Loafs posting...
The argument made here about me is purposefully inaccurate. Yes, it is true - distinctly true - that I dislike Freespace and blame it for the cancellation of Privateer Online. These are, as suggested here, simple facts about me that can be easily verified in our archive.
Ok
What does not follow, however, is how this is connected to the Saga mod. Ask yourselves: if my hatred of Freespace were connected to a desire to do in Saga, why would it take *five years*? Five years of paying to host their site, five years of running their forums, five years of glowing news reports on our front page. The idea that your recent problems can be blamed on a flew in a single man is entirely wrong.
Furthermore, it was not *my* decision to remove the Wing Commander from the Saga. It was the decision of the entire staff, a group of people who usually function from keeping me in check when I make rash mistakes. You're not facing an angry LOAF, you're facing everyone.
Ok noticed.
Many facts above are similarly misleading. For instance, the claim that czachen's post was removed without comment - there is, quite literally, a comment explaining why it was removed (it was done at his request). Claims of secret deleted posts are wild and inaccurate - looking at our archive can well show why anyone was banned.
Interesting...I have read his post and some of the following...could you show me the one where he asked about the removal?
Consider this in casting me as the sole villain preventing 'Wing Commander/Freespace relations' - I don't post here. How could I possibly be the aggressor? No - it's people like an0n and Kalefierth and Sphynx who come to the Wing Commander side of the street and intentionally start trouble... and then come back here and blame it in grand obscurity on the people whose job it is to shut them down.Y es, Sphynx has been banned - but not for any of the grand lofty reasons he's given you... he came to troll and stayed to insult me personally. Boo.
I can't speak about anon or Kale but Sphynx? Well show me what you mean...other then your "problem" topic that Sphynx mentioned here earlier.
The Saga team was banned and Saga was banned from our news because they have been harassing other mod teams - Freelancer, Nexus and, yes, Homeworld groups. They believe that their decision to copy 3D models from Wing Commander III somehow gives them control over those ships entirely and that they must police the world against anyone else who would dare use ships from the most popular game in the Wing Commander series.
Freelancer has been talked about earlier. Nexus...well I encouradged him do work further and showed interest...how that kills a mod I don't know.
Homeworld...well as you might know we had started as a Homeworld/FS/Heagemonia/whatever mod. We don't had anything to do with the other mod that was running about the same time.
Only thing that I remember was that the guy doing it was asking us not to do the same timeline...but since we canceled that part I didn't see a reason why we should have killed that one.
As for the HW2 mod...Czan stated himself that we didn't do anything...so we also didn't tried on that one.
Speaking of HW2. Their is a similarity to the FL stuff. Czan was totaly upset that someone thought he is using other peoples models. He stated that it is against any modeler ethic to do so. In the FL we found out that someone was using our stuff and where also angry about that.
As you can see their is something about modeler and people doing this stuff that is even if we just rebuild stuff we got a personal connection to it. We do, Czan does and as he stated others also do.
So you don't face a Saga specific thing here but a general common point of view.
Thats just for clearification of my point of view of this special case.
They *know* this is wrong, and so contact people like Bob McDob privately to threaten them. We let them do this and it ruined two projects. If you don't find Saga in the news or a Saga link from the front page at the CIC, *this is why*. We can't stand it no longer.
I know of the FL problem...that had been solved before it was canceled....and what is the second mod?
It is *not* out of hatred for Freespace - a search of our archives will quickly find my joking about how putting Wing Commander into the game will improve Freespace immensly - but because of the actions of the team itself. The project looks great, it should be fun and it certainly sucks that we can't promote it or host it or anything of that sort... but their egos have damaged the rest of the community, and we absolutely had to put a stop to it.
It might be possible that I could except the blame for the FL project....you will still have to do a lot of work their thought...but damaging anything else? I can't see any other damage that has been done.
There, that's it, my "right of reply". Do with it what you will - anyone may contact me privately to discuss the matter further.
Yes that is your right. What form of contact do you prefere? I know you people don't like the PM functino...for what reason ever...so Email or ICQ?
Oh and one thing I nearly forgot...the undeleting was my doing...I wanted to view the topic again an thought I have to undelete it to read ^_^
So now for the fun part...I welcome all the new people here. I hope that this not so happy episode will end soon and that we all can concentrate more on the parts we are here for...me working and you news and discussions.
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Do guys need anybody to go over there once in awhile to update your forums? :)
Since your all pretty much band. <shrugs> Just a thought............
They would probably ban me right off the bat :doubt:
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Unfortunately I think this will really happen to you :) Thanks for the offer Kernal, but I think the release-info itself will become public no matter what, and everyone knows where to find us (HLP, Website or even Google) :)
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sorry, double post.
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(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/863/offlimitskn6.png)
Thats just charming.
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You are not trying to force entry into a secure area, are you? :)
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I just moved a topic I created into the internal, since I posted into the wrong forum :) I simply have to many windows open at once :D
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Yes, but next time move it without leaving a link behind, allright? :)
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To my defense, it was the first time I moved one :D
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**** tolwyn I send lars a log of a talk I had with LOAF that offerd a way back in on the CIC board.. I try to send it to you to but your inbox is full. I dunn wanna post the entire log here but I do think it helps to clear a lot of **** up. Lars hasn't responded to my pm yet could you make some room in your pmbox?
Cheers
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I try to send it to you to but your inbox is full.
I took care of it.
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I wasn't online yesterday evening so I might have missed it...I will read it if I have time to do it.
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Oh and one thing I nearly forgot...the undeleting was my doing...I wanted to view the topic again an thought I have to undelete it to read ^_^
Lars, did you mean the undeleting now, or the undeleting the first time they deleted it (since you mentioned then that you had done it)?
I know you did it the first time a couple of times, but are you the one who undeleted it this time?
Certainly, I don't want to accuse the CIC staff of doing something they didn't do (although this was certainly only a miniscule example), so could you set that record straight?
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From what I know.
Deleted by ?
Undeleted by gevatter Lars
Deleted by Loaf
Undeleted by gevatter Lars
Deleted by ?
Undeleted by gevatter Lars
I didn't realy payed that much attention to who deleted it the first time..just the second time where it was deleted quite shortly after I undeleted it. I also didn't toke any notice of the last time.
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Thanks for the clarification, Lars. And that was this time, right, not the first time? That is how I am understanding it.
So, it appears that I was hasty in my suspicions that they were going to play a mind game with the undeletion of the thread, and for that I apologize. They were not guilty of that charge in this case. For me, the sad thing is that the have done so many things in a similar spirit before (this would not have been the first mind game, for example the denial that they had deleted any threads when I could recall some, which Lars' undeletion only served to prove) that it seemed to be in character, at least when they are dealing with us.
However, since we are complaining about being accused (and condemned) of things we did not do, I certainly do not want to be guilty of the same thing.
However, this just serves as more evidence about the history of deleting posts, threads, etc. which is all a part of how we have been vilianized. So, while I was wrong about this particular action, and once again I apologize for that, Lars' actions did prove that I was accurate with my other observation about thread deletions. And by that point I am sticking to my guns.
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Loaf is still denying he deleted the topic though and that kind of thing is not a one off incident, bizzarly he claims he doesnt moderate the Saga forum at all! "It had nothing to do with us. They moderated their own fourm" (aside form bannings I guess) and we know that isnt true. And this isnt the kind of "know" the way Loaf uses that word when he claimed he "knows" we were harrassing czacen. Loaf still cant even admit on a instant message chat that he was wrong about the Homeworld mod buisness, and of course in this forum we can see he still claims we were harrassing the mod despite the guy saying we didnt. Whats up with that? He also claimed on this thread that there is a post that supposedly says why czacens post was deleted. I would love to know where that is buried, as I still cant see it. Has anyone else seen such a post?
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True. And, as Shakespeare would say, "there's the rub."
Let me make it clear that I am apologizing for the part where I was wrong (where I extrapolated based on past experience), not for the parts where I was accurate (where I merely stated past experience, albeit past experience which has been stifled from the public view).
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To make it more clear...from my point of view...their has been:
One thread that was deleted and reopend...se above.
Two topics where closed by an admin. On in the Saga part one in the open forum part. regarding our stuff.
The post of Czan about our involvment or not was deleted...but I can't say who it was...maybe himself, maybe others.
That is what I know of and nothing more. Somehow it allways sound, from both sides, as if a mass of posts and thread have vanished. So I think that we could all relax a little..maybe some time off will cool down both sides and give everyone the oportunity to think about what happend.
I personaly don't want to discuss this topic anymore.
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That's fine with me.
And you are right, I'm not trying to say there have been a huge amount of post deletions. What has happened, though, was very strategic. But the thread in which Starman apologized for the whole Freelancer ordeal was deleted (which could be why people don't remember his apology). The post in which we were exhonerated by czacen was deleted. The thread in which I was banned the first time for trying to calm things down and patch things up was deleted. Other threads were locked and we were silenced without being given a chance to speak. However, what has been allowed to remain are posts and threads in which people insinuate that we were the ones responsible for destroying other projects, all to justify the total banishment of all project members and of the project itself.
Insinuations have been made that I am the one seeking to sabotage other mods, perhaps without the knowledge of the Saga staff. That is just simply not true. I challenge anyone to show me one post I have made anywhere on this forum or on the CIC where I am critical of another mod. I have tried to be supportive of them all. I have lent voices and faces (not just my own, I recorded nearly a dozen people) to Standoff, voices to the Privateer remake, I offered voices to the WC1 Remake, and have tried to give supportive and helpful feedback to every other mod I have posted about.
If there was anyone who is on the team who would be doing this secretly without the knowledge of the team, it would most certainly not be me. It would also most certainly not be any of the core team members, such as Lars, Starman, or Tolwyn.
Insinuations that I have attacked Loaf personally are also unbased in reality. When I went to #wingnut to tell him someone had clued me in to why he thought I had attacked him, even such a notable member of the CIC as Popsicle Pete told me that it was obvious that I had not known about Loaf's condition and was not trying to attack him. What more could I do?
Lars, you are right that I have been uncharateristically forcefull in my posts on this thread, and perhaps that is the reason why. Like any human being, I dislike being falsely accused and not being allowed to have my say.
So certainly, if I have made the thing with post deletions and what not sound like more than what I have stated in this post, let me clarify that what I have mentioned in this post is what I am trying to say about it.
That being said, I will try to cool it now.
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Great lets settle this and procede with what is realy importend.
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**<breathes in>**
**<breathes out>**
**<moves on>**
Ahh, that's better. I know I got a little intense on this subject. Thanks for your patience.
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Well, I'll be blunt. I've browsed the CIC forums for a while, only as a lurker, and it's always been pretty apparent to me that WCS' Engine was a 'problem' for Bandit, he always tended to side with those attacking WCS for not being released yet or not producing enough promotional material, which, to me is not a good idea, an Admin needs to support his hosted peojects, at least publicly, it doesn't even matter if he's posting 'I hate you bastards!' on the Internal, but image is important to the WCS as it is to every Mod, and to be made to feel as though you constantly have something to 'prove' to your hosts is not a good condition to be in.
I suppose once you make what some would consider a 'mistake', you will always be tarred with that brush by that person. I'm not passing judgement on the whole issue, but I know how pissed I'd be if someone used one of my Aesir models without asking, yet I wouldn't have minded at all if they'd just dropped me a PM saying 'Mind if I use it in my campaign?' I know the WCS models are not 100% 'Original' material, but it doesn't mean someone didn't have to spend time and effort to make that model.
It's their site, they can decide who is hosted and who isn't at the end of the day, but do I think CIC have acted somewhat improperly and without decent evidence of what they are accusing. I suppose one of BL's comments to a HLP member who posted an opinion that disagreed with general consensus made it all too clear to me...
'You're not just a troll, you're a Freespace troll.', followed by a banning.
Regardless of where a 'troll' comes from or what games they like, it should not even consider in your treatment of them.
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http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?p=313010#post313010
It takes a big man to admit he was wrong I can't respond to loaf on the saga forum as the topic is closed but I feel for him. Ive had done something similar in my life knowing that I was absolutely just in my cause. I found that I was wrong and instead of rubbing it in my face she was forgiving towards me. I hope saga can appreciate loaf for admitting his mistake and move past all the bitterness.
If I read his post correctly I hope he doesn't quit being a moderator. As most of his posts and judgments are very intelligent sometimes funny. Loaf if you read this every body makes mistakes people get past it and move on.
I mean jeez feel bad for me now that I signed on here I have to remember a new password damn it. :mad:
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I am very happy about how events have unfolded, and whatever one may think about LOAF, as long as you talk to him in a calm and nonagressive matter he is a very reasonable dude. I feel that SAGA on the CIC is something that's very good for the WC community.. something I feel part of ever since I saw the boxart of WCIII in the game stores all those years ago.
All in all I'm quite happy I started this thread.. I hope you guys can get along with the CIC well... I guess you'll just have to try to see the positive side in someones actions instead of jumping on a grudge.
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Wow. :eek2: I am speechless. This is an outstanding development. :)
I read BanditLOAF's post, and that is a post that deserves to be taken both seriously and sincerely. I believe it is now incumbent upon WCSaga to respond in kind. :)
Dishwasher, you may have single-handedly healed the rift between HLP/CIC and CIC/WCS. :) Congratulations on your new title. :)
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oooh thanks for the shiny title.. I think I'm going to print it out and stick it on my wall :)
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Well deserved, I might add :)
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I think we should send Dishwasher to Israel! :D Diplomat Extraordinaire indeed! An end to conflict by peaceful means!
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Yes, indeed, Dishwasher. You're efforts have been incredible. You have my highest respect. :)
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My issues with BanditLOAF predate the existance of the WCS, but he didn't really become bad until WCS came around
he still has me banned and that's BS - he has me permabanned for supposed ban evasion and flooding the forums in a time period i hadn't been on the forums for two months after he had banned me for bull**** (supporting WCS - related to the regression data thread)
So Bandit stays on my ****list until I get an apology from him for fabricating claims about me and claiming that I was hacking his system
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http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?p=313010#post313010
It takes a big man to admit he was wrong I can't respond to loaf on the saga forum as the topic is closed but I feel for him. Ive had done something similar in my life knowing that I was absolutely just in my cause. I found that I was wrong and instead of rubbing it in my face she was forgiving towards me. I hope saga can appreciate loaf for admitting his mistake and move past all the bitterness.
If I read his post correctly I hope he doesn't quit being a moderator. As most of his posts and judgments are very intelligent sometimes funny. Loaf if you read this every body makes mistakes people get past it and move on.
I mean jeez feel bad for me now that I signed on here I have to remember a new password damn it. :mad:
Holy crap. That's the shock of the century to me.
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Awesome that you guys are going to release a model pack for the "community"
Will be fun to play around with :D
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You might have misread the post: we are not releasing just a model pack, but fully FS2 prepared fighters from the Wing Commander 2 era
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so you guys can go back into the fold so long as you give away some of your work ? :wtf:
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I think it's more of a show of 'no hard feelings' to be honest. They were treated really badly but are going to rise above it and as a show of that, they are releasing some models.
Personally, I'm going to wait and see, I didn't go to CIC in the first place, but if I were a member of this Mod, I'd be extremely wary of going back there considering how I'd been labelled, regardless of whether I was involved in the last confusion or not. So Kudo's for you guys for sucking it in and diving back into it.
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I'm always surprised how political these things get. Reminiscent of the DG/SAAB issue, me thinks.
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Thats going back a while......... :o
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http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?p=302313#post302313
What a mob of asspirates. Seriously, I didn't read past the first page of that topic, but if I'd gotten that kind of crap I'd be majorly pissed off. "Ooh, we've been waiting too long for this Free mod, get off your arses and make it!" ****s.
Meh. Fantastic news that Loaf is stepping down as admin - CIC might be less of a hole for people who don't think Freespace is the digital antichrist.
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http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?p=302313#post302313
What a mob of asspirates. Seriously, I didn't read past the first page of that topic, but if I'd gotten that kind of crap I'd be majorly pissed off. "Ooh, we've been waiting too long for this Free mod, get off your arses and make it!" ****s.
Meh. Fantastic news that Loaf is stepping down as admin - CIC might be less of a hole for people who don't think Freespace is the digital antichrist.
Giving your feelings that straight a presentation does not do our credibility any favors.
You may dislike them, but that's no reason to antagonise the entire comunity.
EDIT: sorry, having just reread my own comment I realized it was too blunt.
The new version: sing-song voice 'Always look on the bright side of life!'
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http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?p=302313#post302313
What a mob of asspirates. Seriously, I didn't read past the first page of that topic, but if I'd gotten that kind of crap I'd be majorly pissed off. "Ooh, we've been waiting too long for this Free mod, get off your arses and make it!" ****s.
Meh. Fantastic news that Loaf is stepping down as admin - CIC might be less of a hole for people who don't think Freespace is the digital antichrist.
Giving your feelings that straight a presentation does not do our credibility any favors.
You may dislike them, but that's no reason to antagonise the entire comunity.
EDIT: sorry, having just reread my own comment I realized it was too blunt.
The new version: sing-song voice 'Always look on the bright side of life!'
I'm a very straight person by nature. Many of the people in that thread are being dickwads. I assumed most people are capable of picking which ones and separating those individuals from the community at large. Moreover, loaf is now and has always been an asshole. Good riddance to bad rubbish I say.
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http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?p=302313#post302313
What a mob of asspirates. Seriously, I didn't read past the first page of that topic, but if I'd gotten that kind of crap I'd be majorly pissed off. "Ooh, we've been waiting too long for this Free mod, get off your arses and make it!" ****s.
And these wads have never had to wait for projects like MT or BWO either. A lot of them remind me a lot of the same people that the BSG team had to deal with not too long ago.
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Hey. I'm new to the forums, so i tried not to interfere with the discussion here, but... well it seems thet things are getting more or less normal, between the CIC and the saga team, LOAF has apolgised, team has accepted it, and nowthis discussion is getting pointless. it looks like the place where some people come just to say "LOAF is an asshole" and these certtainly aren't peaople who were engaded in the disscussionwhile saga team was banned from CIC so, maby it's timeto close this topic, as it's just getting pointless. and if you all want to tell someone he is an ashole, take it like a man an go tell him in the CIC
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and if you all want to tell someone he is an ashole, take it like a man an go tell him in the CIC
Did that. Got banned.
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OK. personally after what i saw i think LOAF is an assgole to , i just think this disscusion is getting pointless it's just as i piost a question "where the hell are my wc3 disks i cant find them for two years while i put them in a safe place for i couldn't play the game on win2k and now as i learned of dosbox i wish to find them but i can't :mad:" it's true. it's definetly aboyt wing commander. but it is definetly POINTLESS ;)
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Guys, guys. Please keep it civil here. Do not posts insults here.
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sory for any insults. i just think tha Dishwater did great job bringing SAGA back to CIC and i think this discussion should end here i really didn't want to offend anybody, here, and if anybody felt ofended - I'm sorry. i just think we should all concentrate in supporting the team, as this is what's this forum is all about, an get over with all what happend
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*Salutes Tolwyn
Any trouble here,? I''ll drop a Flashpak down their pants..........just ask ;7
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Black Wolf, being straight does not mean that you have to insult people, even if they deserve it. If you insult others, you're not any better than the target of your insults.
Mancubus, please don't request locking of topics because you think the discussion is done. If the discussion is done, the topic will become inactive on its own.
However, because of the posts in this last page it might be best off locked. Unfortunately.