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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Tyrian on August 03, 2006, 05:30:17 pm

Title: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Tyrian on August 03, 2006, 05:30:17 pm
I was thinking about FS2 today and something interesting came to mind...

What if the Shivans didn't blow up the Capella star in order to make a special subspace jump?  What if it was a weapon test?  I heard a while ago the writer of FS2 said the Shivans might be a symptom of a larger problem.  What if this "larger problem" was another species at was with the Shivans?  What if this mystery race was winning?  The Shivans could have been fleeing from this threat and cut through GTVA territory in order to escape.  They went to the Capella star because it matched the characteristics of what they thought they needed for a successful test, or that it matched the characteristics of the star in this unknown enemy's home system.

If this was the case, it would seem that the test was mostly successful.  Only a few Sathani were lost.  Those which were destroyed may have had a malfunction in their jump drives, brought about by the immense amount of power needed to generate a supernova. 

Maybe another possible theory?
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Mars on August 03, 2006, 05:50:50 pm
So how come they're testing the weapon again after 8000 odd years? Although I agree the "extra species theory is plausible
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: IceFire on August 03, 2006, 11:15:15 pm
Not original but its amongst some of the more logical and sensical theories I've read.  So well done.

Could be a weapons test, or a repositioning of fleets, or perhaps the problem is not another species but subspace itself.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 03, 2006, 11:31:05 pm
So how come they're testing the weapon again after 8000 odd years? Although I agree the "extra species theory is plausible


 :wtf: They used that tech against the Ancients? I don't think there's any proof of that. Indeed, I've seen nothing in FS to even suggest it.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: brandx0 on August 04, 2006, 01:50:35 am
Especially considering that the weapon is introduced in Freespace 2, which barely makes any mention of the ancients, if it does at all.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: karajorma on August 04, 2006, 02:49:52 am
So how come they're testing the weapon again after 8000 odd years? Although I agree the "extra species theory is plausible

There's no proof whatsoever that the Shivans ever used the weapon against the ancients. It's quite possible that the nebula was a nebula when the Ancients found it and any theory that says it wasn't and that the Shivans did destroy a system there needs to explain how the second knossos portal survived the supernova (or why on Earth the Ancients would build one after the system was blown up).

Even if the Shivans did use the weapon 8000 years ago it's still possible that they lost the technology and then rediscovered it or that the previous version didn't use Saths and the new version needed to be tested.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Mefustae on August 04, 2006, 03:02:17 am
There's no proof whatsoever that the Shivans ever used the weapon against the ancients. It's quite possible that the nebula was a nebula when the Ancients found it and any theory that says it wasn't and that the Shivans did destroy a system there needs to explain how the second knossos portal survived the supernova (or why on Earth the Ancients would build one after the system was blown up).
But you can't argue that campaign implies the Nebula was created by a similar event. I mean, it's obvious the detonation would predate the Ancients, and while there is no evidence of Shivan wars prior to the annihilation of the Ancient's civilisation, the implication that the Nebula was created from a Shivan-induced supernova remains.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: aldo_14 on August 04, 2006, 03:40:44 am
I was thinking about FS2 today and something interesting came to mind...

What if the Shivans didn't blow up the Capella star in order to make a special subspace jump?  What if it was a weapon test?  I heard a while ago the writer of FS2 said the Shivans might be a symptom of a larger problem.  What if this "larger problem" was another species at was with the Shivans?  What if this mystery race was winning?  The Shivans could have been fleeing from this threat and cut through GTVA territory in order to escape.  They went to the Capella star because it matched the characteristics of what they thought they needed for a successful test, or that it matched the characteristics of the star in this unknown enemy's home system.

If this was the case, it would seem that the test was mostly successful.  Only a few Sathani were lost.  Those which were destroyed may have had a malfunction in their jump drives, brought about by the immense amount of power needed to generate a supernova. 

Maybe another possible theory?

But if this other race was so powerful, how could the Shivans get the required number of Sathani into their home system?
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 04, 2006, 04:22:27 am
With FEDEX !"!

Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Blaise Russel on August 04, 2006, 04:46:11 am
Sathanagram?
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: karajorma on August 04, 2006, 04:50:51 am
But you can't argue that campaign implies the Nebula was created by a similar event. I mean, it's obvious the detonation would predate the Ancients, and while there is no evidence of Shivan wars prior to the annihilation of the Ancient's civilisation, the implication that the Nebula was created from a Shivan-induced supernova remains.

I don't think it implies anything of the sort. The only implication I can see is Bosch's seven cities of Troy comment but I don't think that says anything about how the Shivans destroyed earlier civilisations.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Snail on August 04, 2006, 05:19:56 am
What about that part where Bosch says something about the Egyptians and a blazing million suns (or something like that)...
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 04, 2006, 05:29:31 am
He was talking albout the naughty symbionts from stargate and Raa etc lol...........
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: karajorma on August 04, 2006, 05:46:39 am
He also say that the supernova is thousands if not billions of LY from earth. Pretty hard to make any kind of inferance from such a large set of dates. Thousands would infer that they made it killing the ancients (as would the Pharoah's comment) but the comment about it being billions of LY away immediately contradicts that.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Mars on August 04, 2006, 10:42:25 am
It always seemed like the game implied that the nebula was destroyed by the Shivans too me, but okay...
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Goober5000 on August 04, 2006, 11:04:45 am
It always seemed like the game implied that the nebula was destroyed by the Shivans too me, but okay...

Me too.  There was definitely foreshadowing, but I suppose it's a matter of opinion whether it should be interpreted as a Shivan-created nebula.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Tyrian on August 04, 2006, 01:33:55 pm
My theory regarding the nebula is that the supernova that created it was a natural event.  The Ancients built the Knossos as a way to travel there to harvest the nebular gasses to power their ships.  This was where they encountered the Shivans.

Regarding the weapon test, what if the Shivans kill the Ancients, then go after the Terrans and Vasudans in FS1, get beat, decide to try to whack another race, in the process testing their supernova weapon, it fails, as a result they have bitten off more than they can chew and start to get owned, end up fleeing through Terran space to Capella, test the weapon again, get it working, and finally jump out to take another shot at the unknown race.  (Excuse the run on sentence Goob.) 

It would mean that they were building Sathani since the time they killed the Ancients, and just finished a few months before fleeing through Terran space.  I believe FS2 also states the Shivans were less interested in controlling nodes this time through, reinforcing the idea that they were running from something. 
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Mars on August 04, 2006, 03:05:28 pm
Once y'all have refined your theories, you can put them in the appropriate section of the Freespace wiki.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 04, 2006, 10:05:33 pm
I believe it relevant to this thread that the Wiki does mention a possible Ancient-era supernova: the Crab Nebula. I believe i'm actually contradicting my earlier post, but didn't the Crab supernova occur 5000 years ago (from year 2000, 8000 years in Freespace's past).
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: phatosealpha on August 04, 2006, 10:48:42 pm
I still maintain that they're sustained by interdimensional energy, and came to this dimension only to discover that subspace energy was like alchohol to them, and have been running around piss drunk since they got here.

The 'bigger problem' is that interdimensional space is so short on energy these days that interdimensional space gods are going to planes of existence where they get drunk on a 100 millenia bender, and no one is calling last call cause there ain't no interstellar OJ at home.

But, no one listens to me.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Falcon on August 05, 2006, 01:28:35 am
Shivans are interstellar node-to-node salesmen and diplomats. Forced the GTVA into existance and sold them cool shield and beam tech, though the price was a bit expensive.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: ]C[rusader on August 05, 2006, 03:39:59 am
@Tyrian:
Regarding your theory, you may be interested in the following.  (And, your opinion about it would be welcomed.)

Excerpt From Reply #81, May 17, 2006
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39302.msg810842.html#msg810842

Post-Ancients' Era
Eventually, the Shivans encounter a worthy opponent for the first time: the Guan-di.  The new species is not only quick to duplicate Shivan weapons and shields, but also smart enough to develop subspace-tracking technology...
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Falcon on August 05, 2006, 04:50:38 am

Excerpt From Reply #81, May 17, 2006
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39302.msg810842.html#msg810842

Awesome read man, really enjoyed it. :yes:
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: aldo_14 on August 05, 2006, 08:45:18 am
Once y'all have refined your theories, you can put them in the appropriate section of the Freespace wiki.

Why?
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Tyrian on August 05, 2006, 08:52:43 am
Post-Ancients' Era
Eventually, the Shivans encounter a worthy opponent for the first time: the Guan-di. 

Where did the Guan-Di race come from?  Was it a fan creation, or was that info released by :v:?

EDIT:  When did that new smiley get added?

:tumbleweed:
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Mars on August 05, 2006, 09:16:05 am
Post-Ancients' Era
Eventually, the Shivans encounter a worthy opponent for the first time: the Guan-di. 

Where did the Guan-Di race come from?  Was it a fan creation, or was that info released by :v:?


Just a hint... there are only three canonical species in the game.

Is it just me or does that name sound an awful lot like Gandhi?

Once y'all have refined your theories, you can put them in the appropriate section of the Freespace wiki.

Why?

For the sheer joy,,, if you read the wiki forum a couple of months bacj there was a small discussion about it, obviously they all have the non canon banner over them
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 05, 2006, 11:21:40 am
Just a hint... there are only three canonical species in the game.


Four. You forgot the Ancients.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Tyrian on August 05, 2006, 04:04:39 pm
So the Guan-Di aren't canon then...Disappointing...

Where did they come from then?
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: ]C[rusader on August 05, 2006, 06:19:06 pm
@Tyrian:
i'm sorry to disappoint you with the impression that anything i wrote could have been canon.  i genuinely thought the plotline would clearly come across as non-canon.

As for "where did the Guan-di come from", can you explain your question a bit more?  i don't understand exactly what you want to know.


@Mars:
Very amusing... but it isn't just you.  i didn't realise the similarity in the phonetics, since i never intended any connection between "Guan-di" and "Gandhi".  The name was the result of a deliberate search; i don't have the original article, but here is a similar one...

Excerpt from Encyclopedia Mythica
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/guan-di.html

"Emperor Guan", the Taoist god of war. He opposes all disturbers of the peace. He is charged with the task of guarding the realm against all external enemies, as well as internal rebels...
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 05, 2006, 06:23:19 pm
I think he means: "where did you get the idea for the Guan-di?"
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Mars on August 05, 2006, 07:23:51 pm
Just a hint... there are only three canonical species in the game.


Four. You forgot the Ancients.

It's been a long day  :doubt:
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Tyrian on August 05, 2006, 08:49:27 pm
I think he means: "where did you get the idea for the Guan-di?"

Yeah, what he said.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: ]C[rusader on August 06, 2006, 01:42:59 am
Ah, i see, thanks for clearing that up.  (i had wondered if the question was asking for a birthplace or historical origin.)

The idea just happened at random, really.  The FS2 story obviously has inspired many people to speculate, so i'm just another of the crowd.  My reply to Mars should help to explain the race's name --it seemed to make sense to stay with a deity-based theme.

As for the plotline itself, i share your opinion as far as "another race" being a key to the Shivans' behaviour throughout the game.  At the same time, though, i'm fully aware that a logical outcome might not be possible.  Writers do sometimes write themselves into corners where no satisfying reason can be given for whatever happens in a plot.  Or, a writer may start a project then abandon it in a state where any subsequent writer would struggle to find an ending.

Despite that, it still was entertaining to try making sense of events like the Capella detonation.  My thoughts on that evolved as such: subspace manipulations aren't typically undertaken near stars(?) --> subspace manipulations may disrupt stars(?) --> 80+ Shivan juggernauts all manipulating subspace might disrupt a star cataclysmically --> the cataclysm presumably creates a nebula --> the Shivans are known to use gas miners in a nebula --> the Capella nebula was intentionally created to supply gas(?) --> the nebula is a supply depot(?) --> military supply tends to use depots on defense --> the creation of the Capella nebula-depot means the Shivans are on defense(?)

Once one supposes that the Shivans are on defense, the next step is to suppose an aggressor.  Hence, the Guan-di.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: S-99 on August 10, 2006, 09:42:34 pm
guan-di...guano?
I wish i could make beam cannons out of that ****.
Maybe the shivans are running away from the **** smelling guan-di for thousands of years. Not being able to communicate with the shivans on part of language difference, they're chasing down the shivans after one fateful day in shivan history, where a shivan dropped its wallet.
The guan-di continually chase down the shivans saying, "we have your wallet,plz come back, so i can return it".
And then the shivans just said **** the wallet when the **** smelling guan-di are coming after them.
It's all about the smell, and the shivans are almost driven insane by it.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: Charismatic on August 11, 2006, 02:43:22 am
Not original but its amongst some of the more logical and sensical theories I've read.  So well done.

Could be a weapons test, or a repositioning of fleets, or perhaps the problem is not another species but subspace itself.
Personally, I'v never bought the whole 'use supspace and it will collapse the universe' theory. I think it is too dubious to be apart of the Freespace feel.
Title: Re: An Original (I Hope) Shivan Theory
Post by: ]C[rusader on August 11, 2006, 03:42:40 am
[dies laughing from S-99's comment]