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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: karajorma on August 15, 2006, 01:45:07 am

Title: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: karajorma on August 15, 2006, 01:45:07 am
 :wtf:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1843833,00.html

Quote
Traditional playground games such as cowboys and Indians in the heart of America's old wild west are facing high noon after a proposal to outlaw toy guns.

Alarmed by rising gun crime in Dallas, named the most dangerous city in America by the FBI, and by shootings nationwide by police of offenders carrying toy weapons, councillors have advanced a plan to ban replica firearms.

But some see the measure as a "criminalisation of nostalgia" in a city where guns and popular culture are inextricably linked, from the pistol-packing six-shooters in Texas-themed spaghetti westerns of old to one of the greatest television cliffhangers - who shot JR in the 1980s series Dallas?
 
Traditional playground games such as cowboys and Indians in the heart of America's old wild west are facing high noon after a proposal to outlaw toy guns.

"It's a loss of innocence and very sad," said Mike Belden, 57, manager of the Collectible Trains and Toys shop in Dallas. "My generation grew up on a steady diet of TV westerns and everybody wanted to be the cowboy. A toy gun was just part of the costume. If you wanted to be Superman, you had to have a cape, and if you were playing cowboys, the pistol was essential. And westerns taught us lessons. The good guys always won, the bad guys always lost and it was easy to tell who was who."

Others point to the "hypocrisy" of politicians wanting to ban toy weapons while continuing to use gun culture to market the city. Baseball caps and T-shirts bearing the slogan "Shoot JR in Dallas" were sold to try to persuade Hollywood producers to film the forthcoming Dallas movie remake there.

Despite a recent drop, murders in Dallas still run at four times the US average and its overall crime rate has been highest in the country for cities with a population of more than 1 million for eight successive years, according to the FBI.

The council will vote on the proposal from its public safety committee this month. If it is passed, Dallas would become the second city in America, after New York, with such stringent laws about the sale and possession of toy guns. Replicas painted in bright colours or made of translucent material to help distinguish them from real guns would be exempt.

"I would have liked to see the city absolutely outlaw replica guns, but to get anything progressive done in this part of the country is significant," Rev Peter Johnson, a community activist and supporter of the ban, told the Dallas Morning News.

He said an anonymous donor had offered to buy all the toy guns still on sale in Dallas shops to ensure that small business owners would not suffer financially.

But Mr Belden said shops have not carried realistic replicas for years and that the true victims will be collectors no longer able to trade in valuable cowboy-era nostalgia.

"Most of the stuff we see comes from people's attics and is pretty beat-up but every now and then you'll come across something in good condition, such as a Hopalong Cassidy in its box," he said.

Um. What??!!  :wtf:
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Fury on August 15, 2006, 02:28:09 am
Replicas painted in bright colours or made of translucent material to help distinguish them from real guns would be exempt.
So, what's the problem? I think it is fair to ban real looking replicas, especially in cities of high crime rates. Of course it would be for the best to ban real guns as well, but americans won't go that far.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Kosh on August 15, 2006, 02:36:43 am
Replicas painted in bright colours or made of translucent material to help distinguish them from real guns would be exempt.
So, what's the problem? I think it is fair to ban real looking replicas, especially in cities of high crime rates. Of course it would be for the best to ban real guns as well, but americans won't go that far.


So real guns are ok, but fake ones aren't?
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Fury on August 15, 2006, 02:47:17 am
Like I said, I don't see a problem with banning replicas that look identical to real guns. They should ban real guns too, but like I said, americans won't want that. If nothing else, at least this law lowers the change of someone getting shot because he carried a real looking replica. If someone wants to get hold of a replica for illegal purposes, he can only blame himself for getting shot by cops or whatever.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: aldo_14 on August 15, 2006, 03:04:42 am
Crikey.  They really are going to introduce the 'Guns for Toys' programme, aren't they?
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Mefustae on August 15, 2006, 03:09:50 am
Crikey.  They really are going to introduce the 'Guns for Toys' programme, aren't they?
Uh-oh, spaghettio!
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Mars on August 15, 2006, 03:13:58 am
There just seems to be somthing logically wrong with that idea, ban toy guns, but keep the real ones?  :confused:
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: karajorma on August 15, 2006, 03:19:15 am
If someone wants to get hold of a replica for illegal purposes, he can only blame himself for getting shot by cops or whatever.

But surely people who would previously have robbed a bank using a replica will now simply decide that it's easier to get hold of a real gun and use that instead?

Getting a gun is fairly easy in the USA so if you make it harder to get a replica for illegal purposes then people will use a real gun for the same illegal purposes.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Prophet on August 15, 2006, 03:29:18 am
Quote
...an anonymous donor had offered to buy all the toy guns still on sale in Dallas shops to ensure that small business owners would not suffer financially.
Ok. Thoughtful. But what the hell would someone do with thousands of toys? Oh I know! It's got to be Santa! I'm finally gettin' me that .357 I always wanted. :)
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: karajorma on August 15, 2006, 03:39:12 am
I suspect a diabolical plot to bring the city to a standstill by mailing a mixture of real and fake guns out to everyone :)
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: vyper on August 15, 2006, 07:31:58 am
In other words, to avoid having to actually force the Law Enforcement agencies to do a better job, they're taking all the innocent objects out of circulation.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 15, 2006, 07:33:28 am
Ahah, elimintate the legal objects, arrest everyone, No errors.

Thats novel.....................
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on August 15, 2006, 10:09:57 am
Yup, don't ya just loooovve what the US is turning into?
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Getter Robo G on August 15, 2006, 10:20:57 am
That's it! I'm dressing up like Zorro, developing a Shakesperian accent, and will wield the dead frozen goat of justice up side their ignorant heads!

Honest they TRY to correlate MURDERS to toys? Even if we take death by cop into acount that's NOT Murder! Hell the cops (in England I think) murdered an unarmed man on a subway on suspicion alone and never even got a slap on the wrist!

Whoever though this up is mentally challenged (and probably right-wing).

Still it seems only sales in the state are banned? You can still import from outside or internet right?

Even at age 35 you never know when I MIGHT get a hankering for a realistic Rambo RPG or Chuck Norris SMG. (sarcasim)  :p
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Ferret on August 15, 2006, 10:28:20 am
They used to have sweets that looked just like cigarettes and were in identical packaging.
I don't think this is much different.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: brozozo on August 15, 2006, 05:03:18 pm
How bout that.

I remember all the hubub when this first came up. Apparently, some people thought it was a very bad thing that an ice cream truck were selling clearly toy guns (orange tip, and well, it looked like a toy guy).

My children shall have mountains of toy guns.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Mars on August 15, 2006, 05:28:20 pm
No Charlie, do you want the AR-15 or the Uzi?
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: n003lb on August 15, 2006, 06:07:17 pm
I assume the vast majority of you don't live in the states, right?  I can't say I've recently seen a more anti-gun sentiment than what I see in this thread.

I, for the record, despise ideas like this.  I also despise most forms of gun control.  Sure, I don't think that just anyone should be allowed to go to the local gun shop and buy a fully automatic Tommy gun or something, but I also believe that almost anyone should be allowed to go buy a 9 mm pistol if they want, with the proper training.  I don't think repeat firearms offenders should be allowed to own a gun unless they have proven beyond a doubt that they have reformed. 

I agree with Karajorma that this sure as hell won't solve Dallas' problems.  It'll just make the perps use real guns now.  However, banning the real guns also won't solve the problem.  It's been proven here that all bans do is take the guns from lawful owners.  Someone wanting to use a gun for illegal purposes can still get it through other means.  Disarming the public simply makes it easier for the criminals to have their way.

Also, a little known fact that is usually ignored or covered up by media is that about 85% of all violent crimes in America do not involve guns.  Most of them use blunt instruments or blades, not guns.  It's just the guns that get the attention.

BTW, I not only am pro-gun, I have a CCL (Concealed Carry License).  My gun provides me with extra piece of mind, should I ever find myself in a situation where I feel I need it.  I knew a couple that were killed in a random carjacking.  They stopped at a light, two men approached the car, busted a window with a jack handel, and dragged both my friends from the car, then proceded to beat them to death.  The men did not steal anything except the car, which was then left a few blocks away.  No motive, no reason for the attack, except maybe to joyride in the car for a few minutes.  Both my friends were licensed CCW holders, but since they were travelling in a state that did not recognise this, they had to leave their guns in the trunk with the ammo in the glove box.  If they had been allowed to carry their guns, they might both be alive today.  This is just one example of why I am an avid opponent of heavy gun control.

This is just my view of the situation.  It may not agree with some of your views, but it's the way I see it.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Descenterace on August 16, 2006, 12:54:20 am
I don't live in the 'States, but I agree with the above.

I just know people are going to try to pick holes in the argument that banning guns only takes them away from lawful owners. I note that Liberals especially claim that 'it makes it harder for criminals to acquire them' (at least, they say that here in the UK).

What it comes down to is this: who are you going to rely in for protection? Yourself, or the government? And do you really think the Authorities have time to hunt down every criminal? Of course not. The only way to deter the buggers is to raise (markedly) the probability that death is an immediate consequence of a crime. And that means arming the law-abiding majority.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: aldo_14 on August 16, 2006, 02:53:47 am
I don't live in the 'States, but I agree with the above.

I just know people are going to try to pick holes in the argument that banning guns only takes them away from lawful owners. I note that Liberals especially claim that 'it makes it harder for criminals to acquire them' (at least, they say that here in the UK).

What it comes down to is this: who are you going to rely in for protection? Yourself, or the government? And do you really think the Authorities have time to hunt down every criminal? Of course not. The only way to deter the buggers is to raise (markedly) the probability that death is an immediate consequence of a crime. And that means arming the law-abiding majority.

So, do you support the death penalty for burglary, then?

In many cases, home gun ownership leads to accidental deaths or the gun being turned on the owner; both of which are IIRC more statistically likely than succesful use for defense.  Moreso, it actively encourages criminals to acquire guns (and they can do so legally if not convicted, of course) and to be prepared to use them (as well as creating a big supply chain for obtaining illegal weapons through theft, as seen in the likes of the US).  It also increases the likelihood of murder 'in the heat of the moment'; offhand the majority of gun murders occur because the murderer has easy access to a lethal weapon during an arguement or row, rather than due to premeditated criminality (a gun is a very easy killing device compared to other weapons; it's less personal and requires less physical stress; it's also a lot easier to 'use' quickly before the murderer changes their mind).

For me, the question is whether you want to encourage a civillian-criminal arms race, or whether you want to buttress the systems setup to allow fair justice (rather than, say, vigilante death)?
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 16, 2006, 03:08:54 am
RE sweet smokes, we had them down my way too, I bought them when i was no more than seven IIRC. And like any idiot seven year olds, my mates and i ate them
Spoiler:
(they were just smoke shaped cheap nasty chocolate)
with the paper still on....... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: karajorma on August 16, 2006, 03:15:05 am
The point I was making is that regardless of where you stand on the gun control argument this is a pretty stupid idea.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Ferret on August 16, 2006, 05:45:48 am
RE sweet smokes, we had them down my way too, I bought them when i was no more than seven IIRC. And like any idiot seven year olds, my mates and i ate them
Spoiler:
(they were just smoke shaped cheap nasty chocolate)
with the paper still on....... :rolleyes:
It was to prepare you for when you were old enough to smoke (or get hold of them), by that time you wouldn't know any better and would want a cigarette just because you used to have them.
Plus kids think they're cool, and if you taught yourself they were cool so much that young you'ld naturally believe it. By the time you realise the truth, it's too late.

Sure is a good job I never really liked those sweet cigarettes.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: aldo_14 on August 16, 2006, 07:27:20 am
I remember trying 'smoking' at a friends sleepover in primary 5 or 6.  Thankfully, we smoked rolled up pieces of newspaper lit by the fire, which was enough to put any sane individual off for life.
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 16, 2006, 07:43:28 am
I remember trying 'smoking' at a friends sleepover in primary 5 or 6.  Thankfully, we smoked rolled up pieces of newspaper lit by the fire, which was enough to put any sane individual off for life.

LMAO......................
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 16, 2006, 03:39:53 pm
In many cases, home gun ownership leads to accidental deaths or the gun being turned on the owner; both of which are IIRC more statistically likely than succesful use for defense.

*mostly proven to be tosh here*

You'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Again it comes down to who actually bothered with some training and who just bought a gun because they like having one. People who just like having one and haven't bothered to get any training should not be allowed to own guns. For some reason bans are acceptable and mandatory firearms safety classes aren't, though...

All criminal action carries the risk of injury and death. You can get knifed by the homeowner too, or end up dead from a skull fracture induced by a bat or a hockey stick. You could get shot by the cops, mauled by a guard dog. You take your chance like everyone else.

In regards to the original topic, this is of course a feel-good law. Tokenism. Typical of city officials. If you want anything done correctly you have to talk to the county. :/
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: n003lb on August 16, 2006, 03:51:08 pm

In many cases, home gun ownership leads to accidental deaths or the gun being turned on the owner; both of which are IIRC more statistically likely than succesful use for defense...

If the owner has the proper training, these type of incidents would rarly occure.  IMO, there is absolutly no excuse for "accidentally" shooting someone.  With proper handeling, it's nearly impossible to do this.  Where this problem comes in is when untrained idots (mainly kids) get ahold of a gun and don't know how to use it.  They don't check if it's loaded or chambered and then they play with it.  First off, unless the gun is for home or personal defence, it should never be left unattended while loaded.  If it's for home defence, then it should be where only adults can access it, and everyone, including any children, should be trained in it's proper use.  If the kids in the house know how to use it properly, they'll be less likly to accidentally fire it.

You see, I support the idea of firearms training in public schools.  There would be a lot few accidental deaths if kids were taught how to handel a gun rather than teach them that it's an evil thing, which just sparks their curiosity more than teach them anything.

As for the gun being turned on the owner, if the owner is properly trained and willing to use leathel force if needed, then this should never happen.  The attacker should never get close enough to take the gun before being shot.  If the gun owner hessitates, or is not willing to kill someone in defence, then they should not have a gun for personal defence.  Better off with pepper spray or something then.

Quote from: karajorma
The point I was making is that regardless of where you stand on the gun control argument this is a pretty stupid idea.
Sorry about getting it somewhat off topic, and I agree, this is absolutly a stupid idea.  Ranks right up there with "Clunker" laws.

[EDIT]
ngtm1r hit on the same thing while I was posting, hehe
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: aldo_14 on August 16, 2006, 04:00:48 pm
Edited; removed some stuff which might be wrong; see following.

  Have to admit I'm not in the mood for a massive big debatey topic, so once I find the things I'm remembering, I'll leave it at that.

(yes, I agree it's a stupid law, too)

EDIT;
ok, editing in stuff for a bit

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usguns/Story/0,,1736424,00.html
Quote
Forty per cent of American households own guns, but those guns are 22 times more likely to be involved in an accidental shooting, or 11 times more likely to be used in a suicide, than in self-defence.

Ok, can't find a link.  But I can find something I wrote earlier on this topic, which has some source references  (from when I had more time to be an argumentative little bugger, y'see :D);
Quote
ME!

I mean, I know in the US they've had a fair number of studies that have said privately owned guns are predominately used in familiar violence (accidental shootings of family members, suicide, murder of family).  They found that the people arrested for non-traffic offenses were more likely to own weapons (37% versus 25% of general population, that the vast majority of purchased handguns had magazines of over 10 bullets (37% to 14%), and that 32% of all felons obtained weapons by stealing legally held guns (over 500,000 weapons in total). 

Of course, you are far more likely (by about 5 times) to be killed in the commision of a robbery by a criminal armed with a gun, than one armed with a knife.

Additionally, a study on 743 gunshot deaths (Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48) found 84% occured due to altercations in the home, and of these only 2 were of an intruder, with only 9 found in court to be justified.  The FBIs 1994-95 release of crime statistics revealed 24,526 murders, 13,980 with handguns, and only 251 of which were found to be justifiable homicide.

Research by Dr. Arthur Kellerman ("Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home," The New England Journal of Medicine, October 7, 1993, pp. 1084-1091) identified that owning a gun carries a risk of murder in the home 2.7 times greater than not owning a gun.

Obviously this is all US figures, but english language details on Brazils' situation seem hard to come by.  Nonetheless, I'd suggest a correlation.

(from later post in thread)


Another little statistic I remember; in America, 56% of gun owners have had some form of formal (military, police, NRA, etc) training.  Yet this group were no more likely to store a gun safely (unloaded, locked away) than those without training (Hemenway, D., S.J. Solnick, and D. Azrael,
"Firearm Training and Storage," Journal of the
American Medical Association, 273(1):46-50, 1995*).  This is especially true for handguns; which, of course, due to their size are more likely to be bought for 'self defense'.

*unfortunately, I've been unable to access beyond the abstract (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/273/1/46).  I've seen a secondary citation that the most likely group to have an unsecured firearm are those who have bought it for self-defense, own a handgun, and have received formal training.  This was a survey of 800 owners, 20% of whom kept a firearm unlocked and loaded at home.  Bearing in mind that the majority of Americans bought a firearm for the purposes of recreation (i.e. hunting; so likely a rifle/shotgun); 46% buy it for self defense.  Given that a handgun is primarily a self-defense weapon (rapid fire, concealable, somewhat inaccurate), it would seem to make sense that the 20% are primarily of this group.

....and another jump

What I did (just) find;
Apparently, a report by the government of the state of Rio de Janiero found that 72% of guns used in crime were once legally owned; specifically that 78% of armed theft, 67% of rapes at gunpoint, 58% of gun homicides and 32% of kidnappings at gunpoint used legally registered (at one point) guns.

I've also read a disarmament (guns for money) campaign last year led to the first drop in shooting deaths (by 8%) for the first time in 13 years.


(http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,35984.0.html)

Hate quoting myself, but very lazy tonight :D 

Anyways, this is OT (And I'll admit that's largely my fault.... :o), so I'll just leave it at the mo :D
Title: Re: Dallas bans toy guns. Real ones okay.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 17, 2006, 03:30:41 am
The most quick and effective solution for Gun Owners... Buy a metal case, Lock the gun up............ Hide the case on top of a cupboard etc away from kids but still within easy access distance. Dont hide it under your pillow cos you saw it in Lethal Weapon or something similar. ::)