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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 06:53:23 am

Title: The North Korean military
Post by: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 06:53:23 am: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HH18Dg02.html

Even though most of the stuff they have is obsolete, the fact that they were able to collect so much of it is impressive (in a way).......
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 17, 2006, 07:07:56 am: They have 120'000 special operations troops, But by their standars it probably means they can read........
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Mefustae on August 17, 2006, 07:13:53 am: They may be North Korean, but i'll tell you what; a bullet sounds the same in any language, so put a ****ing sock in it!
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 17, 2006, 07:22:27 am: Quote from: Mefustae on August 17, 2006, 07:13:53 am
They may be North Korean, but i'll tell you what; a bullet sounds the same in any language, so put a ****ing sock in it!
z0MG, O Rly?

who p1$$ed in his cornflakes?
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Mefustae on August 17, 2006, 07:30:16 am: Wasn't in the best mood to humour blatant racism when I made that post.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Wobble73 on August 17, 2006, 08:08:24 am: I'm not sure CD meant anything against the North Koreans per se, just with a government like that who suppress their people's education and freedom,the ability to read may be lacking!
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: aldo_14 on August 17, 2006, 08:10:58 am: Quote from: Wobble73 on August 17, 2006, 08:08:24 am
I'm not sure CD meant anything against the North Koreans per se, just with a government like that who suppress their people's education and freedom,the ability to read may be lacking!

Yes, because the ability to read in a country where every piece of literature is indoctrination propaganda would really hurt the government......
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Mefustae on August 17, 2006, 08:11:51 am: Quote from: Wobble73 on August 17, 2006, 08:08:24 am
I'm not sure CD meant anything against the North Koreans per se, just with a government like that who suppress their people's education and freedom,the ability to read may be lacking!
Of course, those exact same allegations could be levelled at another, somewhat larger nation, but then again it's NK, so who cares.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Wobble73 on August 17, 2006, 08:13:45 am: :confused:Is the UK a larger nation than North Korea?? :confused:
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Mefustae on August 17, 2006, 08:24:44 am: Oh for... I don't know why I even bother. *Mutter*
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 17, 2006, 08:33:13 am: LAWL, This is blown out of context.......

*uses flux capacitor to prevent CD posting original post*

Original context of post changed to inply NK army is mediocre and spec ops are equivalent to UK cadets......
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Wobble73 on August 17, 2006, 08:35:48 am: Yep, someone needs humour tranplant, STAT! :drevil:
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Night Hammer on August 17, 2006, 12:38:06 pm: their air force section is a joke, any modern country has bombs that can get into those 'underground hangars.' And they still use Mig-17s and -19s :lol:
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 17, 2006, 01:13:54 pm: The article rightly makes the point that they have huge forces and zero staying power. Give them a week and their logistics will be on the verge of collapse. Even the Iraqis did better then that the first time around.

Another point: they have an incredible amount of infantry, but their armored strength is less then impressive (the most recent tank given in their list is the T-62; 115mm gun but unimpressive muzzle velocity, armor's hopeless against modern munitions). Men against fire. As any soldier or commander from World War I onward can tell you, fire kills. Not men. They've got a lot of targets, but all that's going to get is some gunner on an LAV or Bradley painting huge numbers of hash marks on his turret.

The only viable threat North Korea really has handy is the fact they could make South Korea uninhabitable for the next few decades via chemical weapons alone.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Eishtmo on August 17, 2006, 06:34:06 pm: War Nerd's perspective. (http://www.exile.ru/2003-February-06/war_nerd.html)
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: brozozo on August 17, 2006, 06:50:22 pm: Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 06:53:23 am
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HH18Dg02.html

Even though most of the stuff they have is obsolete, the fact that they were able to collect so much of it is impressive (in a way).......

The link isn't working for me.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Mars on August 17, 2006, 08:14:48 pm: Quote from: Mefustae on August 17, 2006, 08:11:51 am
Quote from: Wobble73 on August 17, 2006, 08:08:24 am
I'm not sure CD meant anything against the North Koreans per se, just with a government like that who suppress their people's education and freedom,the ability to read may be lacking!
Of course, those exact same allegations could be levelled at another, somewhat larger nation, but then again it's NK, so who cares.

The US may be bad, but it is not that bad, the government may try to indoctrinate a lot of us, but only the stupid / those who want to be war mongers / uneducated are actually indoctrinated.

And yeah... they do have quite a large force, even if it isn't that good. The People's Liberation Army is both good and huge, which impresses me.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Bobboau on August 17, 2006, 08:36:35 pm: Mefustae, you ****ing eleitest moron, North Korea is a nation that spends 2% of it's GDP building a hotell with substandard cement in atempt to win a pissing contest with another country that doesn't even notice, then when they fail they don't have the funds to even tare there disgrace down so they just will it away by ignoreing it. it's infastructure is from the 1950s, it IS a crazy upside down bakwards crazy land that throughs the money that should be used to feed it's people to by every last scrap of military hard ware it can in an attempt to scare people into thinking they have anything but a bluff. calling someone a racist for pointing this out is just the most mind numbingly infuriateing anti-thought I have heard sence the last presidential speach.

HOW is that suposed to be racist?

is it because he is saying something bad about someone who your political enimy has said something bad about? you trying to defend the honor of North Korea because Bush has made it clear he'd like to invade?

...

quit being a moron.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 09:28:03 pm: Bush made it clear he won't invade.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Mefustae on August 17, 2006, 11:16:26 pm: Quote from: Bobboau on August 17, 2006, 08:36:35 pm
quit being a moron.
But I do it so well! :p
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 18, 2006, 03:20:48 am: I'm gonna play it swiss an take a neutral stance.
Spoiler:
(I sincerely hope this comment doesn't spark another arguement)
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Wobble73 on August 18, 2006, 03:28:10 am: What you trying to say CD, I'll Argue with that statement if I want!!!!!!!

Joke!! ;7
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 18, 2006, 03:30:55 am: :lol: Wobble humour +1
Wobble went up a level,

What??

Wobble is evolving.......
Spoiler:
Wobble evolved int0......................Wobble74
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Nuclear1 on August 18, 2006, 04:04:51 pm: Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 06:53:23 am
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HH18Dg02.html

Even though most of the stuff they have is obsolete, the fact that they were able to collect so much of it is impressive (in a way).......

So a government spending billions of dollars to buy blatantly-outdated equipment for its military while starving its people is impressive? God, Kosh, sometimes you really do sicken me. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: aldo_14 on August 18, 2006, 05:12:08 pm: Quote from: nuclear1 on August 18, 2006, 04:04:51 pm
So a government spending billions of dollars to buy blatantly-outdated equipment for its military while starving its people is impressive? God, Kosh, sometimes you really do sicken me. :rolleyes:

Don't be daft. He said 'in a way'; that adds a very clear context and meaning to the statement which implicitly does not support that statement.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: karajorma on August 18, 2006, 05:15:43 pm: Well the fact that their people are starving, have witnessed their government piss away what little cash their country does have on stupid "I've got a bigger penis that South Korea" projects and yet they still manage to not be overthrown or even have any hint of a resistance movement is kind of impressive.

It's a like a lesson in how to run an oppressive government if you don't give a **** about ever owning anything other than your own country.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 18, 2006, 06:50:33 pm: The biggest reason on "Why Don't I Want to Attack North Korea" -list is that regardless of the debatable quality of their air force, navy or even army, they've got a huge amount of artillery piled behind the border, in range of Söul, the capital of South Korea.

And if someone tried something against them, the first operation the NK government would order is to quite completely wipe out Söul. That would end up with thousands of civilian casualties, and I doubt even craziests war hawks in US Government would want that.

So... from a military POV, a war against NK could be "won" quite easily - as long as it's technology vs technology, the North Koreans don't stand a chance. Their logistics would be crushed quite fast. Then it would be just guerilla war, and I don't have any idea how long the NK soldiers would want to keep that up... but there would of course be some nutcrack commie minority who would keep fighting until they die in some cave when old age finally gets them.

The problem in this kind of war would, obviously, be "collateral" damage - even moreso than on latest Iraq incident or perhaps even the Israel vs Hizbollah struggle on Lebanon. :confused:
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: MatthewPapa on August 18, 2006, 08:33:15 pm: If NK tried anything at all nuclear or biological on civillian targets, I am pretty sure the US would send them back to the stone age with nukes in very short order. I doubt China and the rest of the democratic world would give a crap.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Shade on August 18, 2006, 08:36:20 pm: They likely wouldn't need to. Given the success rate of NK rocket launches, they'd all land (well, crash) within their own borders anyway, payload and all... and I bet those things don't have the safeties of US or Russian hardware.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Bobboau on August 18, 2006, 08:50:17 pm: if it werent for the sheer mass of weaponry they have pointed at soul, I'd be willing to accept that, but the laws of probability leads me to beleive that while they will probly do at least as much damage to themselves as they would SK, that damage would be spread out amungst many miles of country side, while the damage in SK would be more or less focused in soul, I would say no matter how crappy there equipment is if even 10% of it manages to hit it's intended target it'll still kill a ****load of innocent people.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Mars on August 18, 2006, 08:57:12 pm: *Looks at situation in Korea, Mideast, and the US government*

*Starts digging a bunker in basement*

*Gets hit with a ticket for breaking some sort of government regulation*
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Kosh on August 18, 2006, 11:25:58 pm: Quote from: nuclear1 on August 18, 2006, 04:04:51 pm
Quote from: Kosh on August 17, 2006, 06:53:23 am
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HH18Dg02.html

Even though most of the stuff they have is obsolete, the fact that they were able to collect so much of it is impressive (in a way).......

So a government spending billions of dollars to buy blatantly-outdated equipment for its military while starving its people is impressive? God, Kosh, sometimes you really do sicken me. :rolleyes:

Of course you didn't bother reading my post carefully before posting your knee-jerk reaction.

And for your information they accumulated almost all of that crap before they started having these issues.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Janos on August 19, 2006, 12:39:02 pm: Quote from: Herra Tohtori on August 18, 2006, 06:50:33 pm
The biggest reason on "Why Don't I Want to Attack North Korea" -list is that regardless of the debatable quality of their air force, navy or even army, they've got a huge amount of artillery piled behind the border, in range of Söul, the capital of South Korea.

And if someone tried something against them, the first operation the NK government would order is to quite completely wipe out Söul. That would end up with thousands of civilian casualties, and I doubt even craziests war hawks in US Government would want that.

So... from a military POV, a war against NK could be "won" quite easily - as long as it's technology vs technology, the North Koreans don't stand a chance. Their logistics would be crushed quite fast. Then it would be just guerilla war, and I don't have any idea how long the NK soldiers would want to keep that up... but there would of course be some nutcrack commie minority who would keep fighting until they die in some cave when old age finally gets them.

The problem in this kind of war would, obviously, be "collateral" damage - even moreso than on latest Iraq incident or perhaps even the Israel vs Hizbollah struggle on Lebanon. :confused:

No.

NK has lots of artillery, and that's certain. A large part of that artillery is obsolete WW2-era stuff, like famous Soviet 122mm pieces. Because of it - wear, tear and age all affect the power of artillery which is best used in concentrated efforts - the efficiency of NK artillery propably is pretty bad. This is regimental and divisional artilellery. NK also has rocket launchers like every other country with powerful military. These are quite handy tools, if they have long range and sufficient numbers. Sufficient numbers are easy to reach if you go for cheaper Katyusha models which are quite effective in large amounts. Range is far more difficult. NK goes for pretty standard Katyusha clones, which lack in range (RLs usually have longer range than artillery pieces). Bulk of NK ari is not capable of reaching Seoul. Unguided rockets usually have even worse CEP than unguided shells and as such are effective in large numbers. Increasing range also means lessening the payload, because rockets carry their fuel in the projectile.

So what? Well, the long-range rockets are one of the two backbones of long-range NK artillery that actually has the capability of attacking Seuol. And mind you - not the city center, propably just the northern outskirts. Granted, NK has these but nowhere in numbers required to demolish Seoul. So they might terrorize the area if they could. NK also has another weapon, and this is big-ass artillery guns - over 200mm in caliber and using LR munitions. These guns are pretty cool on paper, but they are hardly mobile at all. NK has most of these in fixed positions because caves provide cover and fixed position provides accuracy. However, they are fixed targets. Fixed targets do not last very long in modern warfare, especially if your enemy has air superiority or radars.
Artillery and adjacent systems lobs solid objects onto trajectory. If you can track the shell, you can easily find out where the shell was shot from (this is why the focus has switched from classic guns to SPA and stuff). ROK, US and most other technologically advanced militaries have the ability to detect this incoming fire and then launch counterbattery fire. This is actually pretty big thing in ROK artillery and they are quite good at it, or so I've heard. A fixed position can be targeted either by indirect fire, or missiles, or aircraft. Moving assets are trickier, but once they fire one salvo they have to switch position or risk their lives.

The bulk of Nk artillery is unable to reach even the outskirts of Seoul. The ones that are able are few in numbers and pretty easily destroyed (propably one of the highest priorities in case a war break out?). "Demolishing Seoul" is interesting myth and pretty good at keeping people uneasy about war, but it is more or less a myth.
Title: Re: The North Korean military
Post by: Hunter on August 19, 2006, 05:06:10 pm: I'm moving to Seoul next year for an extended stay, it's a wonderful city and I sure as hell hope nothing ever happens to it.