Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mr. Vega on August 19, 2006, 10:33:52 pm
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What the hell happened to Square?
They make another beautiful masterpiece with FFX, and bam! They make worthless, purely commercial games like FFX-2 and FFXI, cancel Chrono Break, and now with FFXII, they replaced a brilliant art designer (Yo****aka Amano, designer of Cecil, Locke, Celes, Terra, Kefka) and a very talented one (Tetsuya Nomura, designer of Setzer, Cloud, Aerith, Sephiroth, Squall, Rinoa, Tidus, Yuna, you name it) for this Akihiko Yoshida who's chief area of expertise seems to be designing androgynous boys. On top of that, Uematsu's gone, aside from the occasional main theme he hands out to other, much less talented composers to mess with to their hearts delight.
Final Fantasy X is going to end up being the last of the great Square works, I accept that, but I just don't understand how Square lost it's soul in such a short time. They've always resisted pressure to water down before. It's like Sakaguchi, after pushing the value of video games as literature for so long, decided "Who cares anymore, I've done everything I set out to do" and let the Square execs **** up all of his projects.
So, any comments or theories?
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12 sucked. 13 looks like it'll suck too. I'm probably going to buy a Wii and keep playing FFVI on zsnes.
I think there's been a big culture shift at Square-Enix; the merger of Square and Enix itself was evidence of that shift. The departure of Hironobu Sakaguchi, I suspect, contributed a lot to the problem, but I also think the change was happening since long before he left.
I decided Square was going down a hopeless path when they announced the Advent Children crap. There were always rumors about a sequel to FF7, but I always asserted that Square would never make such a thing because FF7 ended very neatly and Square has a history of making new worlds through each iteration. When I was proven wrong about FF7, I realized Square had given up its history and standards.
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Well, as Kojima stated to either EGM or GI (I cant remember which) a few months back, Japanese develoopers have pretty much lost when it comes to innovation and new ideas, and this more or less proves it. I mean, all Square has done with FF since, well since FF6, honestly, is just throw a new coat of paint on it, and rename a few characters. The underlying stories are all the same, the plot developments are all the same, their just churning out the same **** year after year after year, just like Megaman and Madden. And, the unfortunate part of it all is, they can't do anything about it with the way the Japanese game market is set up. Look at it over there, very few new and interesting ideas ever come from there. Their tapped. They need some sort of revolution in the way they make games.
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I think there's been a big culture shift at Square-Enix; the merger of Square and Enix itself was evidence of that shift. The departure of Hironobu Sakaguchi, I suspect, contributed a lot to the problem, but I also think the change was happening since long before he left.
Yeah, but if the culture shift was due to the standard "commercial success leads to play it safe" scenario, then why didn't the shift occur after Final Fantasy VII? They were at the absolute peak of popularity and prestige, and rather than falling apart then, they make Final Fantasy VIII (which was vastly superior to VII IMHO) Chrono Cross, and Xenogears, all of which took a lot of risks.
At least with 13, they have Nomura doing the art design again.
I'm probably going to buy a Wii and keep playing FFVI on zsnes.
I'm an SNES9X man myself. I just can't put up with the DOS interface of zsnes.
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Well, as Kojima stated to either EGM or GI (I cant remember which) a few months back, Japanese develoopers have pretty much lost when it comes to innovation and new ideas, and this more or less proves it. I mean, all Square has done with FF since, well since FF6, honestly, is just throw a new coat of paint on it, and rename a few characters. The underlying stories are all the same, the plot developments are all the same, their just churning out the same **** year after year after year, just like Megaman and Madden. And, the unfortunate part of it all is, they can't do anything about it with the way the Japanese game market is set up. Look at it over there, very few new and interesting ideas ever come from there. Their tapped. They need some sort of revolution in the way they make games.
1. Madden is courtesy of EA Sports. The US industry is no less stagnant than the Japanese one.
2. The reason the industry has become so stagnant is that the increasing over emphasis on graphics have sent the production costs for games higher and higher. With such high budgets, executives get pretty finicky over anything that isn't tried and true.
3. Have you ever vaguely looked at the plots of FFVII, VIII, IX, X, read their scripts, maybe even played them by chance? Anyone who thinks that Square hasn't made anything creative since they left Nintendo is ether an utterly ignorant moron or a rabid SNES purist. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're the latter.
EDIT-Well, it's not just graphics, but the fact is productions costs for games have been shooting through the roof for a while now.
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My god, they're not perfect, you know. Its not like Square-Enix makes just perfect games, true, I havent played FF12 and from what I looked, it seems to be a good game, IMO. Most, if not all FFs have the same basics but each manages to be different, with the merger of both companies things are going to change, wether it'll be for the good or bad why dont we actually wait to see it instead of just saying all FFs from now on suck. Advent Children was NEVER made to be a sequel of FF7 and it is a good movie. And before anyone asks I'm not a purist.
2. The reason the industry has become so stagnant is that the increasing over emphasis on graphics have sent the production costs for games higher and higher. With such high budgets, executives get pretty finicky over anything that isn't tried and true.
EDIT-Well, it's not just graphics, but the fact is productions costs for games have been shooting through the roof for a while now.
I agree, this is one of, if not the main reasons the quality of games story-wise today is awful to say the least.
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for this Akihiko Yoshida who's chief area of expertise seems to be designing androgynous boys.
Sephiroth effect.
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At least his design was unique and well done.
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Emphasis on the was...
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I havent played FF12 and from what I looked, it seems to be a good game, IMO.
I have; it sucks.
Advent Children was NEVER made to be a sequel of FF7 and it is a good movie. And before anyone asks I'm not a purist.
If it's not a sequel, then what is it? Seems to me like it fits the definition (http://www.answers.com/sequel&r=67) just fine. And... "good movie"? Are you sure you saw the same Advent Children? The one with the horrific script and cardboard characters?
Yeah, but if the culture shift was due to the standard "commercial success leads to play it safe" scenario, then why didn't the shift occur after Final Fantasy VII?
I'm not really sure. Maybe it was more like "We've passed our peak and haven't been raking in as much money, maybe we'll go for the cheap fan service".
Final Fantasy VIII (which was vastly superior to VII IMHO)
:yes:
Japanese develoopers have pretty much lost when it comes to innovation and new ideas
I don't think this is a Japanese phenomenon. It's endemic to virtually every gaming industry, probably because they've gotten too big. Anyway, if you look closely you'll still see innovative games being produced on either side of the pond. The Katamari series was absolutely brilliant and it is distinctly Japanese. Spore looks like it'll be very unique and is an American game. If you decide to look in the niches, you'll find even more interesting stuff. Japan has a large (at least compared to the US) market for visual/audio novel style games. Some of these have very interesting and unique plotlines, such as the indy horror game "When the Cicadas Cry".
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Japan has a large (at least compared to the US) market for visual/audio novel style games. Some of these have very interesting and unique plotlines, such as the indy horror game "When the Cicadas Cry".
Case in point with the latter generation of Metal Gear games, it seems they're still fine tuning it, and Kojima is talking about games after MGS.
but this whole decline isn't to just Square-Enix, if you look towards any large gaming franchise, it seems to be declining somewhat, i doubt that Final Fantasy will be innovative for long. however.
with FF13, there's gonna be multiple games to be sure, with one developed by their normal FF team, and another being developed by their Kingdom hearts Team.
So, in name, they're the same, in practice, they'll be bound to be vastly different games when it comes time to play.
just a note, shouldn't this be in the gaming forum?
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And... "good movie"? Are you sure you saw the same Advent Children? The one with the horrific script and cardboard characters?
Indeed. After all, FF7 didn't have a horrific script or cardboard characters.
*coughs*
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I have; it sucks.
If it's not a sequel, then what is it? Seems to me like it fits the definition (http://www.answers.com/sequel&r=67) just fine. And... "good movie"? Are you sure you saw the same Advent Children? The one with the horrific script and cardboard characters?
I'm not really sure. Maybe it was more like "We've passed our peak and haven't been raking in as much money, maybe we'll go for the cheap fan service".
Yes, the very same Advent Children and it doesnt suck, ok, I agree, it is a sequel and a good movie, IMO. Square makes one game that people dont consider of god-like quality and people start saying everything is going to hell.
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Emphasis on the was...
Um, the original itself remains original regardless of how many times it is copied.
Yes, the very same Advent Children and it doesnt suck, ok, I agree, it is a sequel and a good movie, IMO. Square makes one game that people dont consider of god-like quality and people start saying everything is going to hell.
When, after a nearly flawless record for more than ten years (not even Looking Glass at its height matched Square's level of consistency), they make several poor games on their flagship titles, and remove the handful of employees that have carried their games since forever from all the major projects, then you begin to lose hope. We howl at the lack of god-like quality from any game of theirs because any slip at all has always been very unbecoming of Square, and now they're slipping again and again.
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If FF13 turns out to be a good game? They didnt always made great games, FF Tatics is a good example of that, great on some things, awful in others.
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Square did not make good games. They made great games and wrote great stories for their great games. "Good" is not good enough, and until after FFX, Square had never been content with a merely "good" game, especially for the main Final Fantasies.
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If FF13 turns out to be a good game? They didnt always made great games, FF Tatics is a good example of that, great on some things, awful in others.
FF Tactics isn't a very good example to use when pointing out were Square messed up. It's very different from the other FF games because of the tactical battle system and that made many people dislike it. Other people however (myself included) did like the game as it was.
From what I've seen, the community seems to be pretty much split when on the topic of FFT, it's one of those either you love it, or you hate it kind of games.
Now Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for the Snes however.. thats another story :p
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Ok, if FF13 turns out to be a masterpiece?
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I'll still play FF8... lol.
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Ok, if FF13 turns out to be a masterpiece?
Then all will be forgiven and I'll shut up. But it won't.
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Says who? You dont know if it will suck, the game industry maybe in a general decline but there are games with higher quality being made even today.
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It will suck. Because Square (excuse me, Square-Enix) has changed into a company that subordinates craftsmanship to sales. And because they have taken the staff that made all of Square's masterpieces and ether laid them off, moved them to other projects or to management positions where they don't actually work on the games anymore (case in point: Yoshinori Kitase, who took over director duties for FFVI when Sakaguchi decided to move up, who is more responsable than anyone for that zenith of the genre, who then directed and wrote VII to X, is now sitting in a nice desk job as a producer for XIII).
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That's right, only the original staff could possibly make a good game. Hiring new people will just stagnate the franchise!
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That's right, only the original staff could possibly make a good game. Hiring new people will just stagnate the franchise!
Or bring new blood or ideas to the already stagnate franchise thus perhaps ending said stagnation.
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Apparently I forgot to close my [sarcasm] tags.
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Hah.
1. Financial pressure, for reasons I have stated earlier, means the Square executives and the shareholders want something that doesn't take many risks. More experienced staff with reputations are better equipped to resist this pressure than newcomers who have yet to earn a place inside the company.
2. The "original" staff has been responsible for so many great games, and they'd shown no signs of stagnating as of FFX, so it seems lunacy to remove them now. It's not the addition of new talent that bugs me, it's the removal of the veterans who could have assimilated these newcomers into the old Square culture.
3. I've love the old Square for years, ever since I rented a copy of FFVI. So I get protective. Give me a break.
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[Square makes one game that people dont consider of god-like quality and people start saying everything is going to hell.
Only one? Final Fantasy X was a bit lacking (e.g. too easy, soundtrack sucked, puzzles were stupid). Final Fantasy X-2 was a travesty. Then they made Final Fantasy XII, which sucks.
I don't think that Square can pull off XIII. They're sticking to a real-time battle system, which was one of the biggest problems with FFXII. The real-time system made battles lose a lot of their epic quality, especially because of the bad camera control. FFXII boss battles tend to degenerate into boring MMORPG style encounters. Tank, heal-spam and it's over. Because FFXII bosses attack at a faster rate than other FF games, the player ends up spending a lot of time doing boring micromanagement (even when using gambits).
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I agree that FFX was easy, especially the last boss, but it is a great game.
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No arguement here.