Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The FRED Workshop => Topic started by: Tahna Los on August 31, 2006, 08:20:44 am
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I don't know if anyone posted this but someone had a mission which was a simulation between the Colossus and 5 Orion Class Destroyers (ala the Colossus Cutscene). He also put in the Colossus against 5 other destroyers, then against the Hades and Lucifer. Does anyone know where I can find it? It's not a playable mission, more of a simulation with a lot of eye candy......
Thanks.
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Just build yourself a copy?
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Was it standalone or part of a campaign?
Colly Vs 5xOrions should be cake to slap together........
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Does it exist ot you dreamed it :lol:
"The Colossus wields more firepower than 5 Orion class destroyers combined" that's the hint which has probably inspired the mission you're talking about.
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Shounds easy to make, just place, set up attacking each other, put yourself somewhere safe, and wait.
Though...
1M hp, 100K hp...
900k, 0,
820K, 0
760K, 0,
720K, 0
700K, 0.
According to this, of the colossus has 5x the firepower of an orion, and brings it all to bear, and the orions bring all firepower to bear, then the colossus will pwn them. (though I haven't checked the damage ratings on the weaps or anything, or counted overkill)
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If i get the freespace ISOs any time soon, I will make this simulation!
Another thing I will do is spawn a SJ next to the Colossus and see how the fight would be if they're both 100%...
How many wings of fighters can the Colossus carry? How many in the SJ? and how many in the Orion?
I was thinking of an all-out engagement of Colossus v. Sathanas and at the same time in the same mission Colossus Fighters + Bombers v. Sathanas Fighters + Bombers.
I'd do the same thing for Colossus v. 5 x Orion and Colossus fighters + bombers v. 5 x Orion fighers + bombers.
Remember capships like destroyers and juggernaughts are highly effective because they have firepower on the ship, but also carry many smaller ships inside.
Colossus v. Lucifer seems fun! It'll be hilarous to watch one or the other get pounded...
The Luci has like 800k HP rite? Colly has like 1M hp...
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Quote from Colossus cutscene:
Sixty fighter and bomber wings are housed in its vast hangar...
That equals 240 combat spacecraft, which IIRC is about double that of an Orion.
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Quote from Colossus cutscene:
Sixty fighter and bomber wings are housed in its vast hangar...
That equals 240 combat spacecraft, which IIRC is about double that of an Orion.
And the Sathanas seems to be better suited to carry wings,so expect more than 130% of the Colossus' capability.
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If i get the freespace ISOs any time soon, I will make this simulation!
Another thing I will do is spawn a SJ next to the Colossus and see how the fight would be if they're both 100%...
How many wings of fighters can the Colossus carry? How many in the SJ? and how many in the Orion?
I was thinking of an all-out engagement of Colossus v. Sathanas and at the same time in the same mission Colossus Fighters + Bombers v. Sathanas Fighters + Bombers.
I'd do the same thing for Colossus v. 5 x Orion and Colossus fighters + bombers v. 5 x Orion fighers + bombers.
Remember capships like destroyers and juggernaughts are highly effective because they have firepower on the ship, but also carry many smaller ships inside.
Colossus v. Lucifer seems fun! It'll be hilarous to watch one or the other get pounded...
The Luci has like 800k HP rite? Colly has like 1M hp...
My god, its been over half a decade since i felt like doing anything like that.............To be a FS2 fred virgin again :D
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If you are a FRED Virgin, i'm just about to hit puberty... I don't even have FRED and I still want to test my PC's preformance (it'll crash i betcha... 2ghz celeron, intel d845pesv mobo with a DIMM burnt out, 512mb pc2100 ddr ram, PNY FX 5200 with 128mb VRAM on APG 4.0, runnin WinXP). I will probably see what a all-out war would look like...
Do you think 5 Orions would be able to destroy a Sathanas? Or would it take more?
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Nah i'm fred menepausal, I've fredded myself blind years ago. Now i just play other peoples missions, (this is not in any way a metaphor) Your rig should handle FS2 fine.............
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Of cource my 4+year-old rig won't crash on normal missions, but I'm not sure about a juggernaught and over 200 fighters and bombers!
I'll use the SEXP to change the player's ship to the Colossus, so I (and other players) will be able to control a Colossus when it gets its butt whooped by like 60 bombers!
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FS2 wont handle 200+fighter/bombers anyway, Unless they are winged i think... Someone else can expand on this, my knowledge of actual engine limits is sketchy, Fred and porn jokes i can handle, engine caps. nope sorry :D
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Well we'll be seeing what crashes it and what doesn't...
Probably put ALL the fighters+bombers in after I put the 5 orions in. If it doesn't work b/c of too many ships, I'll start by cutting in half the number of fighters+bombers. If it works, I'll put back in half the fighters+bombers I took out. Rinse, and repeat. Eventually we will have a playable mission with a ****load of fighters+bombers and a huge cap-ship fight.
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Fair enough, if someone know the current active limit let Bob-san know so he can save all that washing malarky..
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Yeah, quite basically...
I'll probably organize them in the biggest wings I can...
I remember seeing a wing with 6 on it... I wonder if there is a setting for 12-to-a-wing... probably not.
If anyone can find any documentation of the limits of the engine... tell me please. I will start doing a number of missions with different matchups.
The current list...
Challenger v. Challenged = Predicted Outcome
Colossus + f&b v. Sathanas + f&b = Colossus
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Orion + f&b = Colossus
5 x Orion + f&b v. Sathansa + f&b = Sathansa
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Ravana + f&b = Colossus
5 x Orion + f&b v. 5 x Ravana + f&b = Ravana
Colossus + f&b v. Lucifer + f&b = Colossus
Colossus + f&b v. 3 x Lucifer + f&b = Lucifer
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Hecate + f&b = Colossus
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Arcadia + f&b = Colossus
Colossus v. 20 x Mjolnir = Mjolnir?
Colossus v. 2 x Modified "Super" Lucifer = "Super" Lucifer ~1
5 x Hecate + f&b v. Sathanas + f&b = Hecate
I actually found the Colossus to be more then a match for a Sathanas. Why? Because! I did a part of the multiplayer campaign, and didn't disable any of the Sathanas's beams. It took on the Colossus undamaged, and the Colossus survived rather well! I think an undamaged Colossus can take about two Sathanas's in a fair fight.
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If you are a FRED Virgin, i'm just about to hit puberty... I don't even have FRED and I still want to test my PC's preformance (it'll crash i betcha... 2ghz celeron, intel d845pesv mobo with a DIMM burnt out, 512mb pc2100 ddr ram, PNY FX 5200 with 128mb VRAM on APG 4.0, runnin WinXP). I will probably see what a all-out war would look like...
Do you think 5 Orions would be able to destroy a Sathanas? Or would it take more?
In the second Chapter of The Southern Cross,a single Orion takes down a Sathanas(jumping on its back,of course).
In the first Chapter eight(or ten,I don't remember)Mjolnirs take down a Sathanas.
Only the upgraded INF SCP Lucifer can destroy the Colossus(I had two of them taking it down).
A Sathanas takes down every ship it faces directly(4 BFRed,God!).In any other flank,the Sathanas can be easily attacked and destroyed.The Colossus is better for me because its beams are placed where they can hit everything.
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You might see something like this in The Sagitta Project... my Sagitta-class Monitors are (if I find a good model) going to be awesome.
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You might see something like this in The Sagitta Project... my Sagitta-class Monitors are (if I find a good model) going to be awesome.
The Campaign will be good too!
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When I get FRED working I'll start on my missions. G2G for the night!
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Colossus v. Lucifer seems fun! It'll be hilarous to watch one or the other get pounded...
Already tried it. There's no contest; the Colossus pulverizes the Lucifer.
Yes, this is the FS1 armed version.
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I guess that doesn't surprise me, as that what it was designed to do, but it's good to see that it holds true in game as well :)
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happens what when put bfred on lucifer?
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happens what when put bfred on lucifer?
I tried with the Inferno SCP Lucifer(it has lready the BFRed).One Lucy is pulverized,two Lucy destroy the Colossus whithout being destroyed.
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Also remember the HP differences between Lucy and Colly...
Lucy = 800 000
Colly = 1 000 000
Its rather hard for a Colly to take down over two destroyers at a time. It gets pounded most of the time when theres more then 2.
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The hitpoints on Superdestroyers are odd...
I mean,they're 150% a destroyer in dimensions but most time they have 8 times the hitpoints of a destroyer,200.000 hp and they reach the Juggernaut configuration...Odd...
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Yes, a bit odd...
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...and no hope of changing it.
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Yeah, quite basically...
I'll probably organize them in the biggest wings I can...
I remember seeing a wing with 6 on it... I wonder if there is a setting for 12-to-a-wing... probably not.
If anyone can find any documentation of the limits of the engine... tell me please. I will start doing a number of missions with different matchups.
The current list...
Challenger v. Challenged = Predicted Outcome
Colossus + f&b v. Sathanas + f&b = Colossus
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Orion + f&b = Colossus
5 x Orion + f&b v. Sathansa + f&b = Sathansa
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Ravana + f&b = Colossus
5 x Orion + f&b v. 5 x Ravana + f&b = Ravana
Colossus + f&b v. Lucifer + f&b = Colossus
Colossus + f&b v. 3 x Lucifer + f&b = Lucifer
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Hecate + f&b = Colossus
Colossus + f&b v. 5 x Arcadia + f&b = Colossus
Colossus v. 20 x Mjolnir = Mjolnir?
Colossus v. 2 x Modified "Super" Lucifer = "Super" Lucifer ~1
5 x Hecate + f&b v. Sathanas + f&b = Hecate
I actually found the Colossus to be more then a match for a Sathanas. Why? Because! I did a part of the multiplayer campaign, and didn't disable any of the Sathanas's beams. It took on the Colossus undamaged, and the Colossus survived rather well! I think an undamaged Colossus can take about two Sathanas's in a fair fight.
I don't really think so :/ . The sathanas can take out 1 Orion destroyer with 1 BFred. The sathanas has 4 BFreds. The collosus has 1,000,000 hitpoints, and the Orion has 100,000. The Sathanas can take out a Collosus in 2 and a half full BFred salvos. It would take just about 1 munite and 45 seconds for a Sathanas to destroy a collosus in a battle (Alpha 1 not with standing). And the Hecate has 100,000 hitpoints too.
And there are 4 fighters to a (standard) wing, 3 (standard) wings to a squadron, and 12 fighters per squadron.
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Ah whatever.... I'll still see about equal matching. It'll be my intro to FRED.
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thesizzler:You are giving for sure that those ships face the Sathanas in its front.
I repeat,in my campaign I have an Orion taking out a Sathanas by itself doing this way...which means that is possible.
In High Noon the Colossus,with a meneuver,makes the BFReds on the Sathanas being useless(I had it firing some SRed,however).
What could happen if the Colossus continues mvoing straight...
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Not really - the Collie can take a pounding.
I actually edited the "thir Finest Hour" mission and made the Sathanas jump out closer to the Colossus (so it can fire).
Belive it or not, the Colle wen't down but it took out the Sath with it's final salvo :D
And it took the Sath 3 salvos to do the job (and hte Collie is damaged in that mission..around 60% hull)
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In its front the Colossus can use max 3 BFGreen,in Their Finest Hour all its side beams...pretty different....
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For some reason, the Colle is alot more duriable then a Sathanas. If the Colossus somehow defeated a Sathanas that was headed directly for it, then there must be something we are all missing.
Are there any fighters or bombers near either the Colossus or Sathanas in Their Finest Hour?
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...and no hope of changing it.
just make a sequel(hades super destroyer went from 800,000 to 400,000 from fs1 to fs2)
I'm not talking about that which may not be mentioned(the thing with a three) :nervous:
edit: I put five orions against a collie it took um down and stayed at 21% with no other major damage.
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What mode was everyone playing in? I find sometimes, depending on mode, stuff happens or doesn't. Such as, in Medium, the Colle's beams are actually more powerful then the Sathanas' beams, due to the changes in power due to difficulty level.
Try it on Medium, Hard, and Insane. That should give us a good estimate.
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:shaking: Please for the love of pete, Just make him a mssion..........
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I suppose that it would be quite unlikely for the sathanas to fire all four beams at the excact same time :) And the BFGreen only does about 200 initial damage less than the BFRed. But I doubt that the Sathanas would just stay there and take it if an orion was
pounding it in the back shooting at it from behind. I would at the very least excpect it to jump out, and at most to micro-jump behind the Orion (so it can shoot it with BFReds).
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Teh Collie having more firepower than 5 Orions??? That's a laugh!!
The Collie has 12 beam cannons. Each orion has 6. So that's 5x6=30 beam cannons!!!!!!!
Collie has firepower going for itself.
And against 5 Orions, even the Sath is in deeeeeeep s***!
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With a couple of BFReds an Orion go down,the Sathanas has four of them and they recharge VERY SHORTLY.
There's another thing you didn't think about.
1)Did you checked if sometimes,during your test missions,some beams missed their target or inflicted light damage(light the Slashes)?
2)You placed the ships in order to bring as many beams as possible to bear?
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I don't do a test mission, I just made a very educated guess.
1) The shivans don't have any slash beams.
2) A Sathanas can kill almost anything in it's primary beam fire solution except for multiple collosusses.
@trashman: A Sathans can eat 5 orions for lunch.
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EDIT: cool there is someone on my side now \/ I can change my post back.
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The Sathanas ate a Hecate alive with one volley, and did damage to spare.
IIRC Kara actually tested this once, a Sath's first volley will go through four out of five Orions in a row. :p
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Aggg, I'll make a mission tonight, and post it tomorrow, No value or weapon edits, just plain and simple 5 Legobricks Vs One Shotgun......
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The Sathanas ate a Hecate alive with one volley, and did damage to spare.
IIRC Kara actually tested this once, a Sath's first volley will go through four out of five Orions in a row. :p
What idiot attacks a sath with it's whole fleet arrayed infornt of him?
Encircle the sath with Orions. the first one wil lgo down pronto, but the Sath will need time to turn and blast hte others...
And if you order them to attack eachother, at least one Orion will allways stay at the Saths flank. The sath will try to move away, but hte Orion will follow. As hte Sath tries to turn to face him the Orion will close and the Sath wil ltry to pull out again.
I know coause I tested this.
ONE Orion destroyed a Sath when it jumped on it's flank!!!
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Surely an Orbit the Sath technique will work, If you imagine the LEGOrions orbiting the Z-axis around the Saths midsection.
On second thoughts, i cant be bothered with the hassle of going to indepth on this one, So i'm gonna do a standard noob, 5 Orions 1 Colly/Sath, No jump entry, Just whack Alt+Y and the Beans will unlock..........
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IIRC Kara actually tested this once, a Sath's first volley will go through four out of five Orions in a row. :p
Hmm. I tested it just last night and it only skewered three Orions, partially damaging a fourth. Is that what you meant?
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The Sathanas ate a Hecate alive with one volley, and did damage to spare.
IIRC Kara actually tested this once, a Sath's first volley will go through four out of five Orions in a row. :p
What idiot attacks a sath with it's whole fleet arrayed infornt of him?
The idiot who gets attacked by the Sathanas jumping in first........
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ONE Orion destroyed a Sath when it jumped on it's flank!!!
In a mission where the Sathanas only rotated on the XZ plane and kept rotating the exact same direction the entire mission no doubt. :rolleyes:
Have you tried in a mission where both the Sathanas and the Orion aren't making simple scripted movements? Cause the first thing any sensible juggernaut captain would do when confronted with the situation you describe is change the direction of rotation knowing that the destroyer would take nearly as long to make a 180 degree turn as it does.
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Nevermind the Juggernaut's fighter complement.
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To be fair I'd expect 5 Orions to actually have more fighters than the Sathanas or at least enough to make that a fair fight.
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I made a mission once where 5 Orions ambushed a Sath by jumping in behind it. The Sath jumped out and came in behind them, destroyed them in seconds.
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1) The shivans don't have any slash beams.
No,but Terran and Vasudan warships have them(Orion included).
I know coause I tested this.
ONE Orion destroyed a Sath when it jumped on it's flank!!!
Me too.Another thing in common,TM!!
:lol:
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To be fair I'd expect 5 Orions to actually have more fighters than the Sathanas or at least enough to make that a fair fight.
True enough; one hundred wings can probably overwhelm the Sathanas' fighter complement. But not the twenty a single Orion can carry, which was what I meant that as a commentary on. Since that seemed the current subject of discussion.
Even if you accept the propostion that the Sathanas has such a huge hanger to let it handle cargo or other ships and not fighters, I'd still expect 30+ wings to be its normal complement.
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Like the Typhon?
The Colossus has 60 wings housed on(in?) its fighterbay.If you see the MVE Colossus,you see that only a small space(compared to its size)is dedicated for housing fighters/bombers.
The Sathanas,thanks to its configuration and design,could have 90 wings or even more.During the Colossus movie,when the narrator says "And its crew number's over thirty thousand",we see parts of the hull evidenced with yellow or orange,full of activity and occupied by crew and officers.Who knows if the Sathanas needs a low crew number to work?Who knows if this can imcrease the dimension of its fighterbay?
-Sorry for my ugly English,I did my best to explain what this Star Dragonic Head has elaborated-
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For the last time, does anyone really excpect a Sathanas to just sit there not moving at all and to let an single orion kill it? Could it possibly jump into a position where all ships are in it's fire arc?
Would you let a baby rip of your head? Or perhaps would a bear just let a hundred bees kill it? Would a Dolphin just let a shark kill it?
Would you let a 5 year old rape you?
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Only if she was born on a leap year........... :lol:
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The point of a single Orion defeating the Sathanas is positioning. If the Orion jumps in about 1km-2km from the rear of a Sathanas, it will win because all of the SJ's effective weaponry is located on the front-most part of the ship.
Just as the Sathanas will try to turn and face the Orion doesn't mean that the Orion will leave the Sathanas' blind zone. If the Sathanas starts to turn while at complete stop, the Orion simply has to move to stay outside the fire arc. If the Sathanas wants to jump, the Orion follows it into subspace, where the SJ is even more vunerable! If the Sathanas tries to go max speed and outflank the Orion, it takes so long that the Orion probably destroyed the SJ already!
Remember in Subspace (which :v: ironically called Hyperspace in fs2 missions, after looking into the files), capships can't really turn to face an opponent. The Orion will still be behind the SJ in subspace. If the SJ scrambles fighters+bombers, chances are that all wings inside the Orion will be destroyed. Still, in normal space, the Orion has alot of fighter defences. In subspace, it would be easier for the Orion to destroy the SJ's fighters+bombers since those ships have such a light hull
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For the last time, does anyone really excpect a Sathanas to just sit there not moving at all and to let an single orion kill it? Could it possibly jump into a position where all ships are in it's fire arc?
Would you let a baby rip of your head? Or perhaps would a bear just let a hundred bees kill it? Would a Dolphin just let a shark kill it?
Would you let a 5 year old rape you?
It doesn't "let it".
The Sath can't do anything about it, as it simply can't get enough distance and turn since the Orion follows it.
The only thing it might try is the Colossus bat tactic - turning sharply to the side where the Orion is and collide with it - it's far from a vining tactic as the Orion can evade.
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For the last time, does anyone really excpect a Sathanas to just sit there not moving at all and to let an single orion kill it? Could it possibly jump into a position where all ships are in it's fire arc?
Would you let a baby rip of your head? Or perhaps would a bear just let a hundred bees kill it? Would a Dolphin just let a shark kill it?
Would you let a 5 year old rape you?
It doesn't "let it".
The Sath can't do anything about it, as it simply can't get enough distance and turn since the Orion follows it.
The only thing it might try is the Colossus bat tactic - turning sharply to the side where the Orion is and collide with it - it's far from a vining tactic as the Orion can evade.
The point of a single Orion defeating the Sathanas is positioning. If the Orion jumps in about 1km-2km from the rear of a Sathanas, it will win because all of the SJ's effective weaponry is located on the front-most part of the ship.
Just as the Sathanas will try to turn and face the Orion doesn't mean that the Orion will leave the Sathanas' blind zone. If the Sathanas starts to turn while at complete stop, the Orion simply has to move to stay outside the fire arc. If the Sathanas wants to jump, the Orion follows it into subspace, where the SJ is even more vunerable! If the Sathanas tries to go max speed and outflank the Orion, it takes so long that the Orion probably destroyed the SJ already!
Remember in Subspace (which :v: ironically called Hyperspace in fs2 missions, after looking into the files), capships can't really turn to face an opponent. The Orion will still be behind the SJ in subspace. If the SJ scrambles fighters+bombers, chances are that all wings inside the Orion will be destroyed. Still, in normal space, the Orion has alot of fighter defences. In subspace, it would be easier for the Orion to destroy the SJ's fighters+bombers since those ships have such a light hull
OH MY GOD!!! What part of "short jump" don't you understand? Orion jumps in, Sath jumps so it can shoot the orion, orions subspace drives are still recharging, Sathanas owns the orion. Jeez, are you guys THAT dumb?
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For the last time, does anyone really excpect a Sathanas to just sit there not moving at all and to let an single orion kill it? Could it possibly jump into a position where all ships are in it's fire arc?
Would you let a baby rip of your head? Or perhaps would a bear just let a hundred bees kill it? Would a Dolphin just let a shark kill it?
Would you let a 5 year old rape you?
It doesn't "let it".
The Sath can't do anything about it, as it simply can't get enough distance and turn since the Orion follows it.
The only thing it might try is the Colossus bat tactic - turning sharply to the side where the Orion is and collide with it - it's far from a vining tactic as the Orion can evade.
I have to agree with sizzler on this one (though not with the same wording--calm down there mate). The Sathanas won't simply sit there and let the Orion peck at it. If anything, it would launch bombers to damage or disable the Orion while it moves into position to take it out. The Sath has a pretty lethal LRed covering its rear as well; unless the Orion deals with this quickly, say, on the first shot, the Sathanas can do some very critical damage with a few salvos while the Orion is recharging. If it really comes to no LRed or fighter complement, the Sathanas will likely just jump further out, and then rotate once it is out of the Orion's beam range.
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Except now we're into the tactical jumping fallacy, for which there's no precedent in FS. More probably it would just jump off and come back later.
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Sizzler, i hope you calmed down. I try not to have ships take 'shortjumps' due to the fact there is no real information on it, other then the fact that it can happen....
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There is no canon evidence to support short jumps. Aditionally, shivan ships have a tendency to fight till death and not run away.
The Orion vs. Sath example is not a guesswork of mine - I FREDed the mission and let them duke it out.
Note that I didn't plot paths for the ships - I just gave both of them the chase goal.
If the Orion starts off facing in the same direction as the Sath and right next to it, in 9 out of 10 cases it will destroy the Sath.
Even with fighters in the equation, the Orions fighter complement can hold off the shivan fighters long enough.
I havn't tested other starting positions much.
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Even with fighters in the equation, the Orions fighter complement can hold off the shivan fighters long enough.
20 wings vs. 30+ wings? Why do I not believe that?
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The Orion vs. Sath example is not a guesswork of mine - I FREDed the mission and let them duke it out.
Note that I didn't plot paths for the ships - I just gave both of them the chase goal.
Remind me again. How long have you been FREDding?
Cause the first thing any FREDder learns when making capship battles (after figuring out how to make the beams work) is that ai-chase is absolutely useless when it comes to making a capship battle. The resultiing battle is in no way realistic. I've seen ships toss up and down as if they were on the ocean when doing that. It's just simply not the way to FRED a capship battle.
When you said you had FREDded a mission to show that the Orion could destroy a Sathanas I assumed that you had done it using waypoints because I didn't believe for a moment that you would do anything as monumentally amateurish as simply telling the two capships to chase each other.
For all the effort you put into making this a fair test you might as well have simply picked a winner out of a hat. :rolleyes:
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The Orion vs. Sath example is not a guesswork of mine - I FREDed the mission and let them duke it out.
Note that I didn't plot paths for the ships - I just gave both of them the chase goal.
Remind me again. How long have you been FREDding?
Cause the first thing any FREDder learns when making capship battles (after figuring out how to make the beams work) is that ai-chase is absolutely useless when it comes to making a capship battle. The resultiing battle is in no way realistic. I've seen ships toss up and down as if they were on the ocean when doing that. It's just simply not the way to FRED a capship battle.
When you said you had FREDded a mission to show that the Orion could destroy a Sathanas I assumed that you had done it using waypoints because I didn't believe for a moment that you would do anything as monumentally amateurish as simply telling the two capships to chase each other.
For all the effort you put into making this a fair test you might as well have simply picked a winner out of a hat. :rolleyes:
Don't patronize me.
IF I was scripting their every move THEN it would be a unfair battle, as I could script it so that the Orion allways evades the Saths cannons.
This way there is a matter of chance, alltough I discovered that the Orion will practicly allways follow the above route. If it's next to the Sath, the Sath loses, and the Orion actually behaves unusually smart, trying to stay on the Sath right side all the time.
And while the Sath has more fighters, it can't launch them all instantly. And for some strange reason, the Terran/Vasudan fighters seems smarter than the shivan ones (even toguh I increased the strength of shivan weapons). In allmost all of my test the allied fighter force won, despite being outnumbered.
Go figure...
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Don't patronize me.
IF I was scripting their every move THEN it would be a unfair battle, as I could script it so that the Orion allways evades the Saths cannons.
This way there is a matter of chance, alltough I discovered that the Orion will practicly allways follow the above route. If it's next to the Sath, the Sath loses, and the Orion actually behaves unusually smart, trying to stay on the Sath right side all the time.
And while the Sath has more fighters, it can't launch them all instantly. And for some strange reason, the Terran/Vasudan fighters seems smarter than the shivan ones (even toguh I increased the strength of shivan weapons). In allmost all of my test the allied fighter force won, despite being outnumbered.
Go figure...
It's not a matter of chance; it's well known that capship AI doesn't judge the best firing angles but simply tries to broadside (this reflecting most ships' in FS1 and - except the Shivans - in FS2 having broadside weaponry) the other ship.
Even I know that putting a ship against a Sath with purely AI-chase is ludicrous, because the game doesn't recognise all the Sath needs to do to win comfortably is turn to face the enemy. And if you set it up so that the Orion and Sath are facing the same way - i.e. sitting at broadside - it is blatantly obvious that the Orion has a huge and engineered advantage.
It's about as fair a test as sitting a Mjolnir and Cerberus side-by-side, and then declaring the Cerberus is the most effective weapon because its turret can turn and hit the Mjolnir whereas the Mjolnir can't hit it.
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Don't patronize me.
Every halfway competent FREDder knows that you script battles because ai-chase is only useful on fighters and bombers. I've seen people in the FRED Academy who are fresh from the walkthrough know that this is the case. Hell as Aldo has pointed out even people who aren't FREDders know that you simply don't do things that way.
If you're trying to present evidence that you're correct then do so. But this is not evidence. It's the exploitation of poor capship AI code and for you to assume that I know so little about FRED that I'd believe it was anything else is just as patronising.
IF I was scripting their every move THEN it would be a unfair battle, as I could script it so that the Orion allways evades the Saths cannons.
BOTH methods are unfair. If you bother to check up the thread I was pretty scathing of how bad a test scripting the mission in that way would be. It could probably be made fairer than this travesty though.
The only really fair test would be to make a multiplayer mission and have both players control each ship a couple of times. That would be a fair test. Nothing else on this thread would be.
Even I know that putting a ship against a Sath with purely AI-chase is ludicrous, because the game doesn't recognise all the Sath needs to do to win comfortably is turn to face the enemy. And if you set it up so that the Orion and Sath are facing the same way - i.e. sitting at broadside - it is blatantly obvious that the Orion has a huge and engineered advantage.
Exactly. That's one of the main reasons I found it so ridiculous that Trashman was presenting this as any kind of fair test. It's a situation where the Sathanas will actually turn in order to make none of its weapons able to fire. Even giving the Sathanas orders to stay still would probably result in more wins.
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It's not a matter of chance; it's well known that capship AI doesn't judge the best firing angles but simply tries to broadside (this reflecting most ships' in FS1 and - except the Shivans - in FS2 having broadside weaponry) the other ship.
Even I know that putting a ship against a Sath with purely AI-chase is ludicrous, because the game doesn't recognise all the Sath needs to do to win comfortably is turn to face the enemy. And if you set it up so that the Orion and Sath are facing the same way - i.e. sitting at broadside - it is blatantly obvious that the Orion has a huge and engineered advantage.
It's about as fair a test as sitting a Mjolnir and Cerberus side-by-side, and then declaring the Cerberus is the most effective weapon because its turret can turn and hit the Mjolnir whereas the Mjolnir can't hit it.
You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.
As for the Sath turning - it can only do that if the Orion isn't right next to it (which it was), or it will collide with it.
But I do agree that there is no "fair" test.
If we start from the assumption that both the Orion and the Saths captains are competent (not unlike the AI :D) then the Sath has a clear advantage.
If hte Orion is far out then it is toase - the Sath wil lturn and vaporize it.
But there are situations where a Orion could do terrible damage to it - if the captain has some brains.
Flying so close to the sath that you're allmost scratching it and mimicking it's moves should work..in theory at least.
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There is no canon evidence to support short jumps. Aditionally, shivan ships have a tendency to fight till death and not run away.
WTH? Whats preventing the Shivans from jumping to somewhere 5K away? And anyway, the Shivans arn't that stupid.
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Shortjumps or..nanojumps?!?
An Orion behind the Sathanas Takes the Juggernaut down.The Sathanas tries to move so its most powerful beams can do their job,but the Orion(which should be more meneuverable) evades it.The AI couldn't do this perfectly,the Orion will be shootable and then pulverized...the AI...but we know that the player can pilot some warship with some special mods,so he can make this possible.
Do you remember the Maahes?What was the Sobek doing?
What's the problem?Why you're discussing so actively for this SathOrion confrontation?The Shivans are Shivans.They're not stupid,but they cannot work alone.They're like the ants,they can be eliminated easily if you use good tactics,but you'll never win because their number if far superior.The design of most Shivan warships suggest it:take the Ravana,the Rakshasa and the Sathanas.They have all their powerful beams pointing straight,while most TV warships are different,having small beams almost everywhere so they can hit targets at 360%.Thay have a particular "Battle Philosophy".
"If the target is where our beams can pulverize it,ok.If not,we'll die,there are so many of us ready to fight...."
Something like this.the Shivans are powerful because they can be sacrificated(exists?).The Phoenicia escapes.The Beast is destroyed.Got it?
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In both FS1 and FS2 no short jumps (or tactical jump) were ever seen, nor the possibility for them mentioned.
It would have surely be very usefull in may of the mission from the main campaigns, yet we don't see it.
Whenever a ship jumps, its WAAY outside of your sensor range (millions of klicks), as tehy usually jump to the other end of the system.
And the shivans do seem to have no regard for their own losses.
Even the Sathanas didn't yoump out when it was being pulverized by the colossuss... Nor did the Ravana.... nad they both had ample time to re-charge thier drives.
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It's what I said before :D
Another thing in common with TrashMan!!!
I was talking about Inferno's Nanojump,it isn't canon,ok,but when we think about the Post Capella period we all think about INF and nothing more,so...
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we all think about INF and nothing more,so...
You think about INF and nothing more.
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You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.
Cause you want the Sath to lose.
Post the damn mission. I'll show you the flaws in seconds.
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we all think about INF and nothing more,so...
You think about INF and nothing more.
And what you think instead of INF?
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You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.
Cause you want the Sath to lose.
Post the damn mission. I'll show you the flaws in seconds.
What? You're brain damaged or something? (no offense)
The purpose of the missions is to show that the Orion can heavily damage/destroy a Sathanas IF it has a good starting position and a captain with some brains.
Of course the Sath will wipe the floor with it if it starts infront of it or if it just waltzes infront of it's cannons....Sheeesh.
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You don't get it do you?
I didn't need to script this battle as the chase AI will actually work as I want it to in this case.
Cause you want the Sath to lose.
Post the damn mission. I'll show you the flaws in seconds.
What? You're brain damaged or something? (no offense)
karajorma brain damaged :( :( :( :(
We are repeating the same things using different words...enough now...
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If the Captain of the Sathanas (AI) was competent he would outpace the Orion then destroy it with the LRed on it's back end.
And I'm sure no-one would take offense at someone assuming they're brain damaged. :doubt:
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we all think about INF and nothing more,so...
You think about INF and nothing more.
And what you think instead of INF?
BWO, my own (planned) campaign, Scroll of Atankharzim, Twisted Infinities. Inferno has a place too, of course. (Might have included Machina Terra too, if they had any content worth a damn...)
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Ya' know what, I'm getting really pissed off at the stupidity of some of you. I'm just gonna try and avoid this thread from now on...
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good idea
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The purpose of the missions is to show that the Orion can heavily damage/destroy a Sathanas IF it has a good starting position and a captain with some brains.
Of course the Sath will wipe the floor with it if it starts infront of it or if it just waltzes infront of it's cannons....Sheeesh.
You simply don't get it do you? :rolleyes:
The point is that the Sathanas is constantly moving in order to give the Orion a broadside it doesn't have. That's the flaw in your mission.
You have claimed that an Orion can stay out of the reach of the Sathanas' guns and then made a mission in which the Sathanas itself will move in order to prevent its guns ever targetting the Orion. That is possibly the most idiotic test I have ever heard of in my life.
Of course the Orion will heavily damage the Sathanas if you exploit a bug in the game. I've explained this to you several times but you just don't seem capable of understanding it. Which is why I'm saying you should post the mission so I can take screenshots and show you how the Sathanas actually turns away from getting its guns into range. I could build a mission to show that in seconds but I know that you would simply claim that I've rigged the mission.
The gauntlet has been thrown down. If the best you can do is insult me rather than post your own best shot at proving your point even though it would take you all of 3 minutes to recreate I'll take that as a sign that you realise what a complete load of bollocks your argument actually was.
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I know i said i'd stay out of this but...
All trashman is saying is that it is possible for an orion to heavily damage a sathanas even if the ai were smarter. The orion would simply have to maneuver itself very carefully.
Now this has gotten out of hand
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All trashman is saying is that it is possible for an orion to heavily damage a sathanas even if the ai were smarter. The orion would simply have to maneuver itself very carefully.
I never said that an Orion couldn't damage a Sathanas before it could turn around and bring its guns to bear but I certainly debate that something as slow and ponderous as an Orion could ever be fast enough to dance it way out of the Sathanas' beam cannons for that long.
I certainly don't buy the assertion that an Orion could destroy a Sathanas. These sort of tests always assume that the Orion is able to stay behind the Sathanas but given the sheer amount of time it would take the Orion to do a 180 degree turn if the Sathanas chooses to rotate in the opposite direction to the one the Sathanas was heading in I don't buy it.
And that's before you consider the fact that the Sathanas is actually faster than the Orion which means that it can simply outrun the Orion until it has enough of a head start on it to flip round and bring its guns to bear before the Orion can hide from it. Circle strafing is not an effective manouver against an opponent who can simply run away faster than you can circle him.
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That is possibly the most idiotic test I have ever heard of in my life.
:D :D :D :D
Repeat:You are posting the same things I have already posted,there's no businness.
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All trashman is saying is that it is possible for an orion to heavily damage a sathanas even if the ai were smarter. The orion would simply have to maneuver itself very carefully.
I never said that an Orion couldn't damage a Sathanas before it could turn around and bring its guns to bear but I certainly debate that something as slow and ponderous as an Orion could ever be fast enough to dance it way out of the Sathanas' beam cannons for that long.
I certainly don't buy the assertion that an Orion could destroy a Sathanas. These sort of tests always assume that the Orion is able to stay behind the Sathanas but given the sheer amount of time it would take the Orion to do a 180 degree turn if the Sathanas chooses to rotate in the opposite direction to the one the Sathanas was heading in I don't buy it.
And that's before you consider the fact that the Sathanas is actually faster than the Orion which means that it can simply outrun the Orion until it has enough of a head start on it to flip round and bring its guns to bear before the Orion can hide from it. Circle strafing is not an effective manouver against an opponent who can simply run away faster than you can circle him.
It all depends on positioning.
IF the Orion jumps in within spitting distance of the Saths flak (or jumps a bit further but manages to spil in while the Sath is distracted with something else), then the Sathanas CAN'T turn to face the Orion and blast it - it would collide with it.
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/8106/sathownedkl3.th.jpg) (http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sathownedkl3.jpg)
What it can do is try to use it's superior speed to pull out, gain enough distance so it can turn without problem. It however takes time during which the Orion can give it a nice pounding.
The AI is stupid here as it stars to turn too soon and the Orion catches up.
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Trashman is losing this thread.
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Make a multiplayer mission.Karajorma takes control of the Sathanas while TrashMan controls the Orion(it's possible with a MOD,isn't it?).No stupid AI.
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I would like to see a captain sane enough to make that jump. Not only are you jumping in under 1km to the Sath, but you have to come out at just the right time so that you are then moving with it when you slow down, and at that very angle for a full broadside.
And why wouldn't the Sath turn to ram it? The collision would probably severly damage the Sath, but the Orion wouldn't survive.
Also what's stopping the Sath from retreating? If I got caught in my blind spot, I'd turn tail for a bit to eliminate the disadvantage.
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*Disregaurds my last post
Stupid AI is a fluke. In the game, the Shivans and terrans are both are intlligent beings (hence the massive warships they produce). And seeing how the AI can only be so good (AI can not be all powerful in this game), and that the AI isn't very good (as Trashman stated), so we are forced to assume that the AI is not proportinal portrayals of what they would be like if FS2 was reality. We then must figure that the Shivans are at least as smart as us FS2 players, plus a lot more. For all we know, the Sathanas could pull some crazy-ass manuver and take both Orions out with one beam. Doubtlessly, command probably tried to engage the Sathanas' weak points when it engaged the fleet, but since the battle wasn't a playable mission, we know that poor AI or glitches in the game did not prevent the Sathanas from decimating the fleet. Also, in the Nebulea stealth mission where you scan the subsytems of the Sathanas, the Sobek corvette was engaging from the Sathanas' blind spot. "HAHA!! CHECKMATE!! YOU LOSE1!!!" you're saying right now, but we can assume that the Sathanas was on a mission of significant mission of importantce, as it did not turn to engage one measly corvette. It didn't even stop to finish off the GTVA fleet it had blown straight through or had circumnavigated. So with that in mind we think that the Sathanas didn't want to delay it's mission to destroy an already doomed corvette. After all, the Shivans could send a destroyer to kill it later, or even a Lilith. There, and to wrap it all up the "Sathanas > orion" team wins.
*ENDS DESCUSSION*
*DESCUSSION OVER*
*NO MORE POSTING*
:)
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What it can do is try to use it's superior speed to pull out, gain enough distance so it can turn without problem. It however takes time during which the Orion can give it a nice pounding.
The AI is stupid here as it stars to turn too soon and the Orion catches up.
Yeah, but again, the Sathanas has a nice LRed situated in the back, and since the Orion has very little offensive firepower on its starboard side, the Sathanas could very well easily tear up Orion 2 in that pic while its bombers disarm Orion 3's offensive port. At that short range, it's not terribly difficult for the Shivan bombers to launch, and, under cover of the Sath's AAA weaponry, disarm Orion 3. The bombers continue to damage Orion 3's engine, allowing the Sath to pull out even faster without risking colliding with Orion 3. The Sath crosses the T with Orion 2, fires, and then takes position to wipe Orion 3 out.
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I would like to see a captain sane enough to make that jump. Not only are you jumping in under 1km to the Sath, but you have to come out at just the right time so that you are then moving with it when you slow down, and at that very angle for a full broadside.
And why wouldn't the Sath turn to ram it? The collision would probably severly damage the Sath, but the Orion wouldn't survive.
Also what's stopping the Sath from retreating? If I got caught in my blind spot, I'd turn tail for a bit to eliminate the disadvantage.
1. If you world and whole species is about to get destroyed, jumping close to a sath (or even ramming it9 doesn't sound that insane anymore.
2. If the Sath turns around (in game) the Orion won't blow up...they will just push eachother around liek glues while slowly losing thier hull integrity.. and the Orion would still shoot.
In RL the Orion would blow up, the Sath would be heavily damaged or destroyed - either way a risk worth taking for a terran commander.
3. What's stoping any ship in the game from retreating after 1-2 minutes (the time it takes to charge the jump drives)? Nothing. Most of them don't.
The Shivans due to their hive frame of mind, the terrans becouse of their stupidity and sometimes inabiltiy to fall back (they have to protect something)
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fire-beam
one BGreen or two on that turret,or let the player do this.
I had one Orion not being hit by the LRed as it attacked the Sathanas both in its right side and behind it in two different misisons,while the destroyer could use its BGreens.
*ENDS DESCUSSION*
*DESCUSSION OVER*
*NO MORE POSTING*
:lol:
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fire-beam
one BGreen or two on that turret,or let the player do this.
I had one Orion not being hit by the LRed as it attacked the Sathanas both in its right side and behind it in two different misisons,while the destroyer could use its BGreens.
What? Use different words, then see if it makes sense.
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What? Use different words, then see if it makes sense.
I think he means that the Sath missied the Orion with all 4 beams...
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Uhm,I try it.
1)The Orion can destroy the turret housing this LRed firing one or two BGreens on it;
2)In my campaign one Orion attacks the SJ ******** first jumping in its right side in the first mission,the behind it in the second one.In both missions,the Orion fires it beams without any trace of this LRed=the Shivan turret is useless against the Orion.
Understood?When someone has difficulties writing in English,just use your brain to understand
Mr Think then post
:p
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What? Use different words, then see if it makes sense.
I think he means that the Sath missied the Orion with all 4 beams...
That's not definitely what I said....
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You might like my way of stopping the Sathanas... but it's highly classified until the release of my campaign...
Two ships going head-to-head, with the SJ losing.
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1. If you world and whole species is about to get destroyed, jumping close to a sath (or even ramming it9 doesn't sound that insane anymore.
Fair enough. But there are still things that can go wrong during transit that would mess up everything.
2. If the Sath turns around (in game) the Orion won't blow up...they will just push eachother around liek glues while slowly losing thier hull integrity.. and the Orion would still shoot.
In RL the Orion would blow up, the Sath would be heavily damaged or destroyed - either way a risk worth taking for a terran commander.
It might look stupid but the Sath would eventually get the Orion in its firing arc. And in real life, the Sath can face the Orion without changing its velocity.
3. What's stoping any ship in the game from retreating after 1-2 minutes (the time it takes to charge the jump drives)? Nothing. Most of them don't.
The Shivans due to their hive frame of mind, the terrans becouse of their stupidity and sometimes inabiltiy to fall back (they have to protect something)
What does a hive mind have to do with not retreating? It might place a lower value on their kind, but it doesn't mean they will just let it die. And I cannot believe Terrans don't jump out because they are too stupid.
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You might like my way of stopping the Sathanas... but it's highly classified until the release of my campaign...
Two ships going head-to-head, with the SJ losing.
Aaaaaaahhhhhhhh...I know... :D
Read my previous posts,are they understandable for you?
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2. If the Sath turns around (in game) the Orion won't blow up...they will just push eachother around liek glues while slowly losing thier hull integrity.. and the Orion would still shoot.
In RL the Orion would blow up, the Sath would be heavily damaged or destroyed - either way a risk worth taking for a terran commander.
It might look stupid but the Sath would eventually get the Orion in its firing arc. And in real life, the Sath can face the Orion without changing its velocity.
Eventually...but that "eventually" can take a long time...even in RL.
What does a hive mind have to do with not retreating? It might place a lower value on their kind, but it doesn't mean they will just let it die. And I cannot believe Terrans don't jump out because they are too stupid.
That stupid remark was aimed at Terran Command...
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Understood?When someone has difficulties writing in English,just use your brain to understand
Mr Think then post
When someone has that much trouble writing in english, it is very hard too use my brain to understand, because it looks like this: I didn't not have no Orions not being shot by no turret that wasn't an Lred as it attacked from both sides right two different mission behind desroyer Bgreen.
@Trashman, usually Terran ships did not retreat when defeat was obvius was because there would be NO capitol ship deaths what so ever in the game. Kinda retarded, eh?
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Understood?When someone has difficulties writing in English,just use your brain to understand
Mr Think then post
When someone has that much trouble writing in english, it is very hard too use my brain to understand, because it looks like this: I didn't not have no Orions not being shot by no turret that wasn't an Lred as it attacked from both sides right two different mission behind desroyer Bgreen.
:p
FreeSpace is a game,when a faction is going to lose a battle they can't escape!
Repulse=escaped
Danton=escaped
Loyola=escaped
Iceni=escaped :lol
Boadicea=escaped
Majestic & Refute=escaped
Iblis & Asuras=escaped
All allied warships in "Slaying Ravana"=escaped
Hawkwood=escaped
Vindicator=escaped
Yo****omo=escaped
ecc ecc
What a beautiful space sim...
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2. If the Sath turns around (in game) the Orion won't blow up...they will just push eachother around liek glues while slowly losing thier hull integrity.. and the Orion would still shoot.
In RL the Orion would blow up, the Sath would be heavily damaged or destroyed - either way a risk worth taking for a terran commander.
It might look stupid but the Sath would eventually get the Orion in its firing arc. And in real life, the Sath can face the Orion without changing its velocity.
Eventually...but that "eventually" can take a long time...even in RL.
I took your diagram and made a mission from it. It takes the Orions 6 minutes to kill the Sathanas. From the ships.tbl, a Sath takes 200 seconds to rotate completely. Since it only needs to rotate a quarter of that to engage the first Orion, that's 50 seconds. Once it finishes off the first one, it needs another 100 seconds to do a 180 to the engage the other Orion. So the Sath has 210 seconds of engagement time. Enough I think to swat both of them down.
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This is a theory.We know that when two ships are close(like in TrashMan's image)one of them starts shaking(sometimes both)....
200 secs are enough...an Orion can move(move,not rotate)and get out of the beams' range.
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Yeah. Infact the two Orions trap the Sath so it can't rotate at all. Go game physics!
But I disagree with your second point. The Sath could probably keep up with the Orion trying to manuver away from its beams. 200 seconds isn't enough to escape its range and remember it only needs 50 to turn to one of the Orions. If you're talking about the Orion moving so that its always in a blind spot, well it might be able to do it, but I doubt it.
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This means that you understand what I write here! :D
Uhm:
\\ <--- Orion
\\
----------------
---------------- <---- Sathanas
0 <----- Waypoint
If the sathanas turn right to face the Orion,the max speed of the destroyer(15)is sufficient to escape.If we create an entire waypoint path,the orion can evade the Sathanas and take it down.
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Can destroy and will destroy are 2 entirely different options. We have seen many ships jump out when under attack, therefore it is canon that they can do so provided they have enough power diverted to its subspace drives.
If the stahanas is not pointing towards the orion, than its obvisouly not using its BFReds, which is pretty safe to assume uses a ****load of power.
Therefore, there is more than enough power to jump out of the field of engagement (canon evidence is the sathanas jumping out immediately after killing the psamtic without adjusting course in any way).
Therefore it is canon that ships can enter subspace without changing their heading, and in this case it is canon that a sathanas can enter subspace even though it has been using energy rescources to fire very big guns.
So what is the motivation for a fully armed sathanas to sit and take such a punishment from a lowly orion, when we have also seen (more canon evidence from their finest hour) that aforementioned sathani can make precision jumps from inside the same mission area (dont believe me? press F4 next time)? It is logical to assume that if the sathanas wanted to take care of this orion threat, it could then return approximately 8-12km away from it with the target inside its primary firing arcs, because self preservation which exists in all living things (and many non living as well) would not cause a sathanas to sit there.
In conclusion, trashman is still a moron, and I like pancakes.
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In conclusion, trashman is still a moron, and I like pancakes.
mmm pancakes....
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I'd like to point out that Trashman still hasn't posted the mission. Merely a picture of one which now suddenly has two Orions not the single one he claimed was necessary.
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and it looks like he made the orions bigger than they should be... (somehow)
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Well, I think the whole problem is that the AI is written to support the sexp system, not replace. It is, in game terms, possible to get an Orion to take down a Sath, purely by waypoints and sexp's, because the AI is relying on the sexps to point it in the right direction.
Theoretically, it's possible for a Fenris to take down a Sath if it stayed in the blind spot (For about 6 hours), the AI relies on the mission designer to avoid situations like that.
I suppose as far as Capships are concerned, FS2 was not designed for cage-matches, it was designed for scripted scenarios, and without some really major renovations in the AI, that is the way things will stay.
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I'd like to point out that Trashman still hasn't posted the mission. Merely a picture of one which now suddenly has two Orions not the single one he claimed was necessary.
I lsot that mission when my HDD chrashed, but it's a 1 minute job to make another one. Why don't you do it?
On another note I put two Orion to illustrate that it can be on both it's left abd right flank...and that two Orions cna cause him problems with turning.
In conclusion, trashman is still a moron, and I like pancakes.
Right back at you :D
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and that two Orions cna cause him problems with turning.
I'm pretty cure I proved that turning is irrelevant.
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The Sathanas escpaes before being destroyed,but it won't do this shortly after the arrival of the Orion(Shivans are Shivans).
Hippo:The Orion may concetrate its power on beams,using 3/4 BGreens and damaging the Sathanas.Taking down its main engine will also make the escape more difficult.
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The Sathanas escpaes before being destroyed,but it won't do this shortly after the arrival of the Orion(Shivans are Shivans).
Shivans are Shivans, but they aren't stupid. I can't see the Shivans sticking around just because someone's attacking them.
Hippo:The Orion may concetrate its power on beams,using 3/4 BGreens and damaging the Sathanas.Taking down its main engine will also make the escape more difficult.
Nothing connects jump drives to the engine subsystems. A ship can, in theory, jump out with its engines disabled. Even if being disabled did strike out a subspace jump, a Sath has six engines.
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The Main engine is much bigger than the other put together.To engage its subspace drives, a ship first reaches an high speed and then enters subspace.The Sathanas can do it without its main engines during the game,but in reality it can't.
Shivans aren't stupid,but in High Noon..
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We don't know if a ship needs to go a certain speed to enter subspace. It could be some other effect, like the portal pulling the ship in, that causes the ship to go faster than normal. Besides "in reality", engines only provide acceleration, so unless entering subspace requires X amount of acceleration, then that doesn't mean anything.
There could be some other reason that the Shivans didn't retreat in High Noon. We don't know what the goal of that Sath was. Scout out Capella for the eventual Sath orgy? Observe the strength of the GTVA? It could be any number of reasons.
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Shivans can have maintance failures too... :p
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That's what you get for letting the Drones fly, too proud to ask directions ;)
'This is a shortcut, trust me.....'
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Well,as I said a game where every damaged warship escapes is not a good game...
The Shivans can sacrify(correct?)their forces.See Capella.FS copied many features from Colony Wars,and in CW every warship needed to reach an X velocity to enter hyperpace.With its main engine diasbled,the Sathanas can't rely only on the ones near its cannons.
Whoever commandered the Sathanas entered GTVA space to finsh the Lucifer's job.Finding the Colossus wasn't anticipated.In this case,some kind of particular Shivan behaviour made its appeareance....the Sathanas was easily taken down by the Colossus. The Colossus was destroyed because its CO was stubborn and moved by honour.
As for Terran ships,we know that corvette size ships have thousands of crew.Do you think that in ships like the Danton every crew member would accept his/her death?Who knows how many "rebels" among the rebels have been killed while they were trying to get out their warship from there or simply to surrender?
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Yeah, I know its all "for the plot" (as High Noon was pretty contrived), but that doesn't stop us from speculating.
Anyway, we're talking FreeSpace, not Colony Wars. FS may have taken some ideas from CW, but that doesn't mean they share the same universe. If your still sticking with "reality", I've already said that engines provide acceleration. So it could still get up to "subspace speed", but it will just take a bit longer.
And if the goal was to finish the Lucifer's job, why didn't the Sathanas fleet do it later?
If the crews of corvettes or destroyers don't want to die, they shouldn't have joined the military. Its was their decision to join the GTVA, or defect to the NTF. They should know that they could die tomorrow.
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NTF operatives didn't know a thing about the existance of the Colossus,they knew that the biggest thing they could encounter was a destroyer.
The Sathanas have destroyed Capella for many reasons.They didn't have so much infos about the reconstruction era,they probably thought that Capella was the primary Terran system...who knows?
The acceleration is proportional to the engines used for it.With the main engine destroyed,the Sathanas will need time to accumulate sufficient power in order to escape using the other engines,or something else. thus allwing the orion to inflict heavy damage.
A Sathanas that escapes from enemy forces is a too encouraging ecent for whoever faces the Shivans.that's why they should be "programmed" to just wait until they are destroyed.
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NTF operatives didn't know a thing about the existance of the Colossus,they knew that the biggest thing they could encounter was a destroyer.
The Sathanas have destroyed Capella for many reasons.They didn't have so much infos about the reconstruction era,they probably thought that Capella was the primary Terran system...who knows?
The acceleration is proportional to the engines used for it.With the main engine destroyed,the Sathanas will need time to accumulate sufficient power in order to escape using the other engines,or something else. thus allwing the orion to inflict heavy damage.
A Sathanas that escapes from enemy forces is a too encouraging ecent for whoever faces the Shivans.that's why they should be "programmed" to just wait until they are destroyed.
Hey hey hey hey hey, If the Sath can go 40+ mps while entering subspace with an acceleration of fast, why dosen't it go that fast in normal space? BECAUSE IT CAN'T!!! It's main engeins can only make it go so fast. And don't give me any of that "aww but it's very draining to all of the systems!" crap either. How do you think it can fire all of those guns at once? yeah thats what I thought I WIN!!
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So?
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1st paragraph: The GTVA didn't know a thing about the existance of the Sathanas. They thought the biggest thing they could encounter was the Lucifer.
Back to your NTF point, had Bosch not wasted the NTF on his gambit to reach the Knossos, I think the NTF could've came up with their own trap to ambush the Colossus. Strength of arms does not ensure victory.
2nd paragraph: The Shivans seem to know a lot more than we think they do. How did they know that Vasuda and Sol were so important?
3rd paragraph: Say the Sath can only accelerate at 25% of normal because the Orion killed the main engine. That means it will take 4 times as long to accelerate. It only takes around 5 seconds to warp out, so the Sath will take 20 seconds to reach "subspace speed." Not enough for an Orion to kill it.
4th paragraph: I don't quite understand. Ecent?
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canon evidence shows that ships do not need to accelerate prior to jumping, it is a part of the jump proscess that occurs when the ship is pulled into the portal.
(proven via the tech room info thingies, and in-mission occurances)
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I lsot that mission when my HDD chrashed, but it's a 1 minute job to make another one. Why don't you do it?
Which is why I'm saying you should post the mission so I can take screenshots and show you how the Sathanas actually turns away from getting its guns into range. I could build a mission to show that in seconds but I know that you would simply claim that I've rigged the mission.
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I lsot that mission when my HDD chrashed, but it's a 1 minute job to make another one. Why don't you do it?
Which is why I'm saying you should post the mission so I can take screenshots and show you how the Sathanas actually turns away from getting its guns into range. I could build a mission to show that in seconds but I know that you would simply claim that I've rigged the mission.
:lol:
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canon evidence shows that ships do not need to accelerate prior to jumping, it is a part of the jump proscess that occurs when the ship is pulled into the portal.
(proven via the tech room info thingies, and in-mission occurances)
Which is strange.. I recall several mission in FS1 and FS2 where ships don' jump out if you disable them.
The SD Tantalus and the other demon in the desarm the Sathanas mission spring to mind.
Which is why I'm saying you should post the mission so I can take screenshots and show you how the Sathanas actually turns away from getting its guns into range. I could build a mission to show that in seconds but I know that you would simply claim that I've rigged the mission.
Which would be impossible for me to claim if you didn't, since anyone could look the mission in FRED and see if it has been rigged... :rolleyes:
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I can't vouch for the Tantalus, but the Beleth in Bearbaiting has its exit cue tied to its distance from the jump node. If its disabled, it'll never be able to reach the node and jump out.
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And here we go. Witness the absolute stupidity of the claim that an Orion can destroy a Sathanas by jumping in behind it.
Sathanas engages engines. Sathanas moves 6000m away from Orion (takes 10% damage doing so). Sathanas turns and burns Orion.
Anyone who still believes the Orion can win can place it anywhere they bloody like and give it any orders they bloody well please.
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The Orion won't remain immobile,if the Sathanas moves 6000 m away the Orion can follow it...
Axem:The ambush?There are many things we didn't see in the Main Campaign...
I have elaborated a theory about this...simply the Shivans can detect some kind of jump signatures(not normal jump signaures,but something like "footsteps" leaved by ships which use a node).Thanks to this ability,the know for example that x number of ships come from that system,a lower number has entered the other ecc. They can discover which system is the one where the x species has evolved and started its subspace travels...
As I said,the main engine is far bigger than the others put together.If you destroy it,you may reduce its speed by 8/10.The Orion has sufficient firepower to take out both the rear engines.The four remaining ones are so little,they can't guarantee a jump.They give probably just 1/10 of the complessive power needed to move the Sathanas.
I never said that the GTVA had infos about the Sathanas before it entered the nebula.I simply said that NTF forces didn't know a thing about the existance of the Colossus.
Bosch's final attempt was to reach the Knossos and contact the Shivans to become an ally.Doing this way,he could save the humanity or crush any GTVA forces.
Ecent?
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The Orion won't remain immobile,if the Sathanas moves 6000 m away the Orion can follow it...
You obviously didn't play the mission. Yes the Orion can follow it. But the Orion is slower than the Sathanas. It can't keep up. It takes about 15 minutes for the Sathanas to open up enough distance on the Orion but the second it does death is not far away for the Orion.
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Axem:The ambush?There are many things we didn't see in the Main Campaign...
I have elaborated a theory about this...simply the Shivans can detect some kind of jump signatures(not normal jump signaures,but something like "footsteps" leaved by ships which use a node).Thanks to this ability,the know for example that x number of ships come from that system,a lower number has entered the other ecc. They can discover which system is the one where the x species has evolved and started its subspace travels...
That's your own theory on the Shivans, I have my own. I'll leave it at that.
As I said,the main engine is far bigger than the others put together.If you destroy it,you may reduce its speed by 8/10.The Orion has sufficient firepower to take out both the rear engines.The four remaining ones are so little,they can't guarantee a jump.They give probably just 1/10 of the complessive power needed to move the Sathanas.
I already gave an example where if Sath only has 75% of its normal thrust, the acceleration will just take 4 times as long. Also each engine has 70,000 hit points (7% of the total hull). It's going to take a while for the Orion to grind down the engines. By comparison, a Deimos has 80,000 hitpoints.
I never said that the GTVA had infos about the Sathanas before it entered the nebula.I simply said that NTF forces didn't know a thing about the existance of the Colossus.
Bosch's final attempt was to reach the Knossos and contact the Shivans to become an ally.Doing this way,he could save the humanity or crush any GTVA forces.
Right, the GTVA didn't know about the Sath, just like the NTF didn't know about the Colossus. If the appearance of the Sath didn't demoralize the GTVA (to the point of giving up), I wouldn't really expect the Colossus to demoralize the NTF.
Ecent?
A Sathanas that escapes from enemy forces is a too encouraging ecent for whoever faces the Shivans.that's why they should be "programmed" to just wait until they are destroyed.
Encouraging what?
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The Orion won't remain immobile,if the Sathanas moves 6000 m away the Orion can follow it...
You obviously didn't play the mission. Yes the Orion can follow it. But the Orion is slower than the Sathanas. It can't keep up. It takes about 15 minutes for the Sathanas to open up enough distance on the Orion but the second it does death is not far away for the Orion.
Uhm,yeah.I have created a subspace pursuit a few months ago,and the Orion was slower.I didn't remember it. :lol:
Axem:event.It was event.Making a Sathanas escape is not good for Shivan forces and boosts the morale of their enemy.Being destroyed is better,trying to inflict as many casualties as possible.
GTVA had the Colossus to face the Sathanas.The NTF couldn't respond to the Colossus' deployment in the battlefield.
The Orion can bring two BGreens on a single target + some Slashes.Enough to destroy a Deimos and of course an engine subsystem.The Sathanas is faster,but in my mission I had the orion inflicting most of the damage on the Sathanas,while the other warships(an Aeolus,a Deimos and a Sobek)inflicted only small damage.The Orion wasn't fast enough,but it has destroyed the Sathanas.I can attach here that mission,its old and my FRED skills have improved in the meantime.I will laugh like you.
My theory is mine,ok,but even if the method isn't correct,the Shivans do what I said.Another possible theory is that they have record of florid systems where life could be present(they fought the Ancients,maybe they have visited Vasuda or Sol).
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Aaah, event. Ok, that makes much more sense now. ;) Anyway, that stuff is again your theory. It may fit and follow what the Shivans have done, but I have different thoughts.
The NTF did respond to the Colossus, but not by attacking it directly. The NTF attacked a supply convoy for the Colossus. If they had destroyed it, Command would've had to withdraw the Colossus temporarily. The NTF sabotaged the Colossus' beams to get Bosch through the portal. They didn't need their own mega-ships for that.
And I just did a quick test. Supposing the Sath isn't moving, the Orion is at the right angle, and using fire-beam, it takes an Orion about 40 seconds to destroy one engine subsystem. So I'll give you it is possible for an Orion to take out the main engine for a Sath quickly. But I still don't think that if you disable the main engine, you disable its ability to go into subspace. In game or in reality, it can still leave.
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It is due to faulty coding in the game. IT doesn't distinguish engines, only calls them different things. Just as you MUST destroy every engine to disable a ship, you can't prevent a jump completely.
Try this quick, Mobius...
Place the ships in the mission quickly, and set them up like this...
Sathanas going from 0mps to maximum speed. Turn beams off the Sathanas. Send the Orion into the mission and bring it from 0mps to max speed as well. Free the beams of the Orion to disabled the engines of the Sathanas, and then see the actual changes to the Sathanas. After the main engines are disabled, bring both ships to a complete halt, and then start them up again. Repeat until all Sathanas engines are dead.
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There's this mission,very old one....
This is just a previwe.It's a mission from The Southern Cross Part 2,supposed to be contained in the main package before i split the mega-campaign.
Axem:The NTF allowed the Iceni to escape.It's not to be paragunated to the destruction of the Colossus.
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The NTF showed the ability to infiltrate and disable a major system in the Colossus. If they disabled its weapons during a real battle, the Colossus would be in real trouble.
They could also park an Orion in the Colossus' blind spot and take it out. :p
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5 seconds. That's all it would take to change the Sathanas into a Colossus and rename the mission to AxemWrong.fs2
Don't make me do it :p
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Well,in the mission I have attached the Orion takes down the SJ Slaanesh,but near the end it can bring only one BGreen to bear.
The mission is in subspace,so the Slaanesh can turn and fight the enemy.
<please no MobiusWrong>
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canon evidence shows that ships do not need to accelerate prior to jumping, it is a part of the jump proscess that occurs when the ship is pulled into the portal.
(proven via the tech room info thingies, and in-mission occurances)
Which is strange.. I recall several mission in FS1 and FS2 where ships don' jump out if you disable them.
The SD Tantalus and the other demon in the desarm the Sathanas mission spring to mind.
If a ships drives are disabled, chances are its subspace "drives" are disabled too.
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FFS, Trashman, you're a ****wit. ANYONE who says that ships cannot and DO NOT jump while disabled, can fall into the group with him.
Fior instance, the Tantalus DOES jump out regardless of whethere is is disabled or not about a minute after the bastion jumps.
The people in this community have a tendancy of talking out of their ****ing asses without taking the 30 seconds it takes to actually TRY something. The lot of you need to grow the **** up.
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Moving in space and entering subspace are two connected things.A ship can't enter subspace if most of its engines are disabled(like the Sathanas,a so big ship can't enter subspace with only its four frontal engines). :shaking:
Hey Hippo stay calm! :)
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(like the Sathanas,a so big ship can't enter subspace with only its four frontal engines). :shaking:
I've already said it doesn't work like that. In game a Sath can leave with even one tiny engine. In reality, assuming that the increased speed is a result of the engines working super hard, it would just take the Sath longer to accelerate.
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You're all WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!
A ship is pulled into the subspace vortex. And other passing by ships don't get sucked in because they are not in the right position to.
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That's why I said, "assuming the increased speed is a result of the engines working super hard." Even if you try to change the whole premise of entering subspace it still doesn't work out.
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oh.
I'm sorry :)
But it still stands for the Lt. Gen.
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FFS, Trashman, you're a ****wit. ANYONE who says that ships cannot and DO NOT jump while disabled, can fall into the group with him.
Calm down Hippo. Whether you agree with him or not it's no reason to start insulting him. If the thread does degenerate into a flamewar I'll have to lock it and I won't be able to rub Trashman's nose in the fact I've proved him wrong. :D
Secondly I'm going to say that I haven't made my mind up on this one yet. There does appear to be evidence for both sides of the argument.
1) There are three methods for a ship to leave the game.
a) A ship can have a departure cue set. This method will work regardless of the state of the ships engines.
b) A ship can be given ai-warp-out orders. This method will not work if the engines are dead
c) A player ship can press Alt-J. This method will not work if the engines are dead
This leans towards the conclusion that :v: intended for engines to be needed for a jump. Seeing as how the departure cue is used for things other than simple arrivals and departures from subspace there is a good reason for leaving it that way. There's no sensible reason for putting those limitations on the other two methods (especially considering that the break and never-warp SEXPs exist) unless the :v: coders wanted to make sure that disabled ships couldn't jump out.
2) The Colossus is given orders to jump out even though it is disabled. I don't think you can read too much into that though. The Colossus was only disabled at a late date in the mission's development. It's quite possible that this was an oversight.
3) There are several occassions where you are told to disable the engines of ships in order to prevent them escaping. Off the top of my head
a) You are told to disable the Iceni to prevent it escaping the first time you encounter it.
b) You are told to disable the Shivan transports carrying Bosch in order to affect his capture.
4) In the mission with the Tantalus the ship jumps out whether or not the engines are disabled. But if a ship can jump out without engines why doesn't it jump out regardless of whether the conditions required for the mission goal are met or not. The same thing applies to pretty much any capture mission in fact.
Based on the above I tend to lean towards the argument that jumps do require the jump engines to be working.
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You're all WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!
A ship is pulled into the subspace vortex. And other passing by ships don't get sucked in because they are not in the right position to.
The FSRef Bible states that the Drives cause a ship to resonate/osccilate in harmony with the subspace continu'um (spellings ****e so sue me) opening the vortex in question. If another ships drive aint on, then its not wobbling in synch with the wormhole anyway....
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1) There are three methods for a ship to leave the game.
a) A ship can have a departure cue set. This method will work regardless of the state of the ships engines.
b) A ship can be given ai-warp-out orders. This method will not work if the engines are dead
c) A player ship can press Alt-J. This method will not work if the engines are dead
I have also witnessed ships with departure cues as waypoints-done-delay with an actual delay. As soon as part 1 of that cue (waypoints-done) is satisfied it meerly waits for part 2 and then warps. Typically not noticeable without a long wait time where there is time for the ship to become disabled.
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Not getting your point. That's still a ship being told to leave via a departure cue
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Aye, just throwing that out there.
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Darth water-Horse? how long you had thtat :lol:
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quite some time now.
*points at the SWC*
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So I what I was saying is right...
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FFS, Trashman, you're a ****wit. ANYONE who says that ships cannot and DO NOT jump while disabled, can fall into the group with him.
For instance, the Tantalus DOES jump out regardless of whethere is is disabled or not about a minute after the bastion jumps.
The people in this community have a tendancy of talking out of their ****ing asses without taking the 30 seconds it takes to actually TRY something. The lot of you need to grow the **** up.
Calm down blubberboy...
I'm not claiming anything with certanty about subspace jumping right now. Do you allways overreact so?
Can a ship jump while disabled? I really don't know. I can't recall anything in the techroom that can shed the light on it, however I do know that in those missions I mentioned those ships didn't jump out (at least not for me).
I actually stayed 5 minutes after the Bastion left, blasting the Tantalus till it died. But maby it was a glitch?
The other Demon I mentioned jumps out unless you disable him.
Is this rock solid proof that ships can't jump while disabled? Nope. But it does merit some research.
I can't recall any ship in the FS1 and 2 campaign that jump out disabled but I could be wrong.
If anyone else knows of ships jumping/not jumping while disabled then plase be kind enough and post them here.
On another note I have a theory - the bigger the ship the more energy you need to make a jump. Now batteries can only go so far, so can you store all of it or must you produce part of it on the spot?
Secondly, do the engines of FS2 ships produce power or are they connected/tied to the jump drive itself in any way?
Food for thought.....
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Oh - I re-did that Orion vs. Sath mission...
Here you go:
http://www.hades-combine.com/web/hosted/fow/LeBigTest.fs2
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Oh - I re-did that Orion vs. Sath mission...
Why?
I've already proved that the Sathanas can avoid being destroyed by moving in a straight line. Which just goes to show how ridiculous your attempts to FRED the mission using attack orders really was.
So why you waited until I've already proved you wrong to post the mission is beyond me.
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Oh - I re-did that Orion vs. Sath mission...
Why?
I've already proved that the Sathanas can avoid being destroyed by moving in a straight line. Which just goes to show how ridiculous your attempts to FRED the mission using attack orders really was.
So why you waited until I've already proved you wrong to post the mission is beyond me.
Becouse you asked for it.
And while the Sath can indeed avoid destruction, it gets heavily damaged by the Orion...
But this is one of those case-to-case scenarios. X will happen if A does B. If A does C Y will happen.
This just goes to prove that a Sath is really a mediocre design.
If a ship so smaller can destroy it or heavily damage in ANY scenario (given that the Sath is fully operational) then it's not that good.
Collie rulez!
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HEY GUYS WOW A FENRIS CAN KILL A FULLY CAPABLE SATHANAS HEAD ON!!!!!
::)
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Becouse you asked for it.
I asked for it several pages back because I knew if I didn't you'd try to pull this kind of ****. So now when it's been proved that the Sathanas can win the battle by simply travelling in a straight line for 15 minutes you decide to post a mission to prove that if you stack the mission in favour of the Orion then it will win.
No one was calling you a liar. We're all well aware that if you write a mission that way the Orion can win. The reason is not due to poor design on the Sathanas but due to the fact that even a trained chimp would come up with better tatics than the ones the Sathanas uses in your mission. Hell sitting still on the spot and rotating is smarter than what it actually does.
And while the Sath can indeed avoid destruction, it gets heavily damaged by the Orion...
The sathanas takes 10 - 15% damage. In a mission I took three minutes to write. Where I did no optimisation. I didn't test if the Sathanas could simply revolve on the spot and blow the **** out of the Orion. I didn't test if the Sathanas would be better served by moving away in a way that brought the LRed to bear.
You claimed that it would be destroyed. My interest was in proving how full of **** that claim was.
But this is one of those case-to-case scenarios. X will happen if A does B. If A does C Y will happen.
This just goes to prove that a Sath is really a mediocre design.
No it doesn't. It's like saying that the USS Nimitz is a poor design cause if they set off all the bombs at once the ship blows up. Using AI-Chase is ****ing stupid. It's suicidal. No sensible commander of the Sathanas would ever try to fight the ship that way. Words can not suitably express the stupidity inherent in doing it. The very fact that changing tactics means that the Sathanas wins with only minimal damage should prove the sheer magnitude of the stupidity needed to fight the ship that way.
If a ship so smaller can destroy it or heavily damage in ANY scenario (given that the Sath is fully operational) then it's not that good.
Except that I question that an Orion could even get that close to the Sathanas. Your mission starts out with the Orion in optimum firing position without any regard to how it got there. It's conceivable that the Sathanas could manouver to bring its guns to bear during the time it takes the Orion to coast to a stop. Have you tested it to see if the Sathanas can manouver into a better position while the Orion is jumping in? I'll bet money that you haven't.
Furthermore we have no proof that Terran jump engines are that accurate even if they wanted them to be.
But do you know what the real ****ing disgrace in your argument is? I tested the mission you gave me. When ran at 1x the Orion was still destroyed after 4 minutes. At 8x it was destroyed after about 8-9 mins. At 64x the two got stalemated and after 2 hours they were still fighting.
Kinda proves how full of crap you were on this matter that even the mission you provided doesn't result in the Sathanas taking more than 20% damage when run under proper mission conditions.
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time compression breaks beams by the way... i thought the scp fixed it once already though.
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Well if nothing else good comes out of this at least we have a nice comparison mission that can be used to show this behaviour :)
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HEY GUYS WOW A FENRIS CAN KILL A FULLY CAPABLE SATHANAS HEAD ON!!!!!
::)
:lol:
Karajorma:Did you play or at least check my mission i attaches some posts ago?Though there were many other ships to assist the Orion,they work in tandem.Of course Command we'll never risk losing an Orion without support.An Aeolus,a Deimos or another ship would be deployed for AAA cover and beam support.A single Orion is simply impossible...
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I didn't play it for the simple reason that I haven't seen you make the claim yet that an unsupported Orion can take out a Sathanas.
If you're going to make that claim I'll be more than happy to play it and prove you wrong :p
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It's more canon.
Two BGreens of the Orion inflict more damage than two SGreens of the Aeolus and 4 Slashes(uhm....).
Without them the Sath will be untouchable by the BGreens,but this can be fixed moving the Orion ahead in the Z axis.
(I'm not going to change my mission for it,because the slow Orion will *********** in the second mission)
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No one was calling you a liar. We're all well aware that if you write a mission that way the Orion can win. The reason is not due to poor design on the Sathanas but due to the fact that even a trained chimp would come up with better tatics than the ones the Sathanas uses in your mission. Hell sitting still on the spot and rotating is smarter than what it actually does.
Assuming you can rotate on the spot..
And B.. even a untrained Chimp in a Collie would do better. A total, brainless idiot that would put Command to shame, a ameba on the Collie can deal with an Orion better than a Sath.
The sathanas takes 10 - 15% damage. In a mission I took three minutes to write. Where I did no optimisation. I didn't test if the Sathanas could simply revolve on the spot and blow the **** out of the Orion. I didn't test if the Sathanas would be better served by moving away in a way that brought the LRed to bear.
I tested it. It can't turn if the Orion is so close. They will collide.
But you completely miss the point. By scripting I can make a Faustus kill a Sath if I want to.
The point is that The Sath clearly has big, exploitable weakneses and that the GTVA Command is a big pile of morons to lose so many ships to it.
You claimed that it would be destroyed. My interest was in proving how full of **** that claim was.
It can be destroyed... in a specific scenario :D
Except that I question that an Orion could even get that close to the Sathanas. Your mission starts out with the Orion in optimum firing position without any regard to how it got there. It's conceivable that the Sathanas could manouver to bring its guns to bear during the time it takes the Orion to coast to a stop. Have you tested it to see if the Sathanas can manouver into a better position while the Orion is jumping in? I'll bet money that you haven't.
Furthermore we have no proof that Terran jump engines are that accurate even if they wanted them to be.
Question is as much as you like. Means squat to me. How did it got there? Maby it jumped in? Maby hte Sath ignored it as it got better things to do? Maby the Sath was distracted while fighting other ships (ever heard of a little thing called diversion)?
5 klicks is considered way off course for a jump, so I'd say they're pretty acurrate.
But do you know what the real ****ing disgrace in your argument is? I tested the mission you gave me. When ran at 1x the Orion was still destroyed after 4 minutes. At 8x it was destroyed after about 8-9 mins. At 64x the two got stalemated and after 2 hours they were still fighting.
Kinda proves how full of crap you were on this matter that even the mission you provided doesn't result in the Sathanas taking more than 20% damage when run under proper mission conditions.
The mission worls by me....Sath dead..every time.
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The Southern Cross has initially based on this-different ways to destroy Shivan Juggernauts.
Though the storyline has changed,many missions with Sathanas being destroyed are present.
I had three Hecates destroy a Sath facing it on its front :D
Specific scenario:
Such missions require a specific scenario(uhm,why you use so many Italian words?).Ok,we are proving our theories without considering fighter/complements ecc. High Noon and the missions which came before it didn't gave us so much opportunities to learn as many things as possible about the Sathanas.
Now we aren't considering these things,we are just talking about strange AI behaviour and strange meneuvers.FS doesn't reduce the speed of a ship with most of its engines destroyed.A slow Sathanas can be destroyed.
Why not the Hecate?Ships like the Mentu have strange weapons.We can insert a Hecate with two frontal BGreens,and this will make the difference because the Orion can use only one BGreen against a target located ahead(in this case,the Sathanas when moves straight on).The Hecate,thanks to its design,can use two BGreens+its two TerSlash.Change the destroyer class to Orion and add another BGreen.Let's see if the Sathanas survives.Certanily it will sustain much damage.
It's not canon because you are changing a default weapon bla...bla but as I said some entries are strange.The Orion fires a BGreen beam from a turret with three little barrels...come on!
Probably this happened because of the Repulse.It had to hit the Colossus with a beam,and only that ex-laser turret could do the job.
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Assuming you can rotate on the spot.
You can. If you've never seen ships do it in game you've obviously not been paying attention.
And B.. even a untrained Chimp in a Collie would do better. A total, brainless idiot that would put Command to shame, a ameba on the Collie can deal with an Orion better than a Sath.
And what has that got to do with anything? What is at debate is whether an Orion can kill a Sathanas. I couldn't give a flying toss about your attempts to drag other ships in to justify the fact that you've already been proved wrong.
I tested it.
And then conveniently lost the mission no doubt :rolleyes:
It can't turn if the Orion is so close. They will collide.
I'm taking about the ship rotating on the Z axis. That could be done easily without colision to bring the LRed to bear. You'll have trouble getting FRED to do it but in a real battle between the two using the starting positions you gave me it would be an exceedingly simple manouver for the captain to perform.
But you completely miss the point. By scripting I can make a Faustus kill a Sath if I want to.
So now telling the Sathanas to travel in a straight line for 15 minutes before doing what you originally had it do counts as scripting? :lol: Don't try to make it seem as if what I'm doing is any more a case of scripting the battle than what you were doing. We both gave the ships orders. The only difference is that I tried to give sensible ones to both ships. You didn't even try.
The point is that The Sath clearly has big, exploitable weakneses and that the GTVA Command is a big pile of morons to lose so many ships to it.
Hardly as big or exploitable as you originally claimed though is it? Had you simply said that the Sathanas is weak from the rear, the GTVA should have concentrated on attacking it there I wouldn't have batted an eyelid cause any fool knows that. It was your ridiculous assertion that the Sathanas could be killed by a single Orion attacking it from behind that I felt needed to be called.
It can be destroyed... in a specific scenario :D
In a specific ridiculous senario. If I place a Fenris behind the colossus and don't let either of them move it could probably kill it too. What does that tell us about either ship? **** all really. It's not a fair test of the capabilities of either ship.
Question is as much as you like. Means squat to me. How did it got there? Maby it jumped in?
As I pointed out have you tested to see if the Sathanas could get its guns into range when the Orion jumps in? Nope. You haven't. You simply placed the Orion in the optimum firing position and assumed that it could reach that position safely with no damage. That is almost as stupid an assertion as the original one that started this debate.
Maby hte Sath ignored it as it got better things to do? Maby the Sath was distracted while fighting other ships (ever heard of a little thing called diversion)?
Oh so an Orion can singlehandedly kill the Sathanas when it has help? :lol: Fine if you're going to give the Orion help I can give the Sathanas help too. The orion can't singlehandedly take out the Sathanas because the Ravana I had waiting in subspace will jump in and fry the Orion with its beams. :lol:
This is why I find arguing with you so funny Trashman. Your very inability to stick to the topic at hand makes this topic the most ridiculous assertion you've made since the whole "The Maxim doesn't have a 3km range cause I say so" argument.
If you're claiming that the Orion can beat the Sathanas singlehanded why the hell are you falling back on having to have other ships present in order for your strategy to work? :lol:
The mission worls by me....Sath dead..every time.
I used retail data and FS2_Open 3.6.9. What did you use?
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The mission worls by me....Sath dead..every time.
I used retail data and FS2_Open 3.6.9. What did you use?
I think he uses the buld where an Orion has 13 BFReds and 86 million hitpoints.
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Funny.But his theory seems to be quite correct,despite from what Karajorma says.
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Funny.But his theory seems to be quite correct,despite from what Karajorma says.
Which theory?
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Eh.. I use the 3.6.9. R7 build with slightly modified tables.
Terran Huge Turrets have a bigger punch, but the Sath is allmost allways out of range anyway. If it they were constantly shooting, they would give a max of 5% increase to the Orions firepower....
The re-charge rate of shivan beams is degraded slightly, but it has no bearing on this mission anyway, since hte Orion is dead after the first Sath salvo...
And then conveniently lost the mission no doubt :rolleyes:
There's nothing convininent in loosing HALF A YEAR worth of modding material.....
I'm taking about the ship rotating on the Z axis. That could be done easily without colision to bring the LRed to bear. You'll have trouble getting FRED to do it but in a real battle between the two using the starting positions you gave me it would be an exceedingly simple manouver for the captain to perform.
And the LREd can be easily destroyed by the Orion - resulting in hte Orion being hit once, and hte Sath loosing it's rear cannon and having it's belly exposed.....
This is why I find arguing with you so funny Trashman. Your very inability to stick to the topic at hand makes this topic the most ridiculous assertion you've made since the whole "The Maxim doesn't have a 3km range cause I say so" argument.
And very inablility to tell the truth is why I find arguing with you pointless.
My arguments was "it's highly possible that the Maxims extreeme range is a [V] oversight, so *I* am taking it with a grain of salt"..
Get your facts straight man. :ick:
And check what's the topic of this thread....
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Eh.. I use the 3.6.9. R7 build with slightly modified tables.
Terran Huge Turrets have a bigger punch, but the Sath is allmost allways out of range anyway. If it they were constantly shooting, they would give a max of 5% increase to the Orions firepower....
The re-charge rate of shivan beams is degraded slightly, but it has no bearing on this mission anyway, since hte Orion is dead after the first Sath salvo...
ROTFLMAO!
Unbelievable. You're probably the only person in the world who would unapologetically use altered tables in something like this. I suppose the fact that degrading the Shivan's beams would also have the effect of making the Sathanas's rear LRed less effective wasn't a problem then? :lol:
For three pages you've complained about how you can script a battle to have any result you want as if my giving the Sathanas a very simple script was in some way unfair and yet you think nothing of conducting tests using tables that improve the Orion while degrading the Sathanas. I'm dumbfounded that you would even admit to doing it. :lol:
And the LREd can be easily destroyed by the Orion - resulting in hte Orion being hit once, and hte Sath loosing it's rear cannon and having it's belly exposed.....
We never see that kind of pinpoint accuracy in the game. Why are you using it now? Furthermore why are you only giving this ability to the terrans? Yet again you're continually stacking the odds in favour of the side of the argument you are on regardless of how fair it is.
And check what's the topic of this thread....
That has nothing to do with anything. The entire argument between the two of us is as to whether a single Orion and kill a Sathanas. If you are willing to conceed that it could only happen if the Sathanas pilot was a complete idiot I'm willing to end the matter here.
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I am 100% sure anyone who has played through parts of the FS2 campaign know what I will be talking about...
What happens when a wing of eight SF Maras jump in 300m away from you? Quite simply, you will most likely lose that fight.
I was playing a Terran Gauntlet with 2 respawns. The first three wings of fighters were easy, though my wingmen kept on dying. By the fourth or fifth wing, I was alone with 2 spawns. All of you know what happens when a wing of Myrmidon jump in halfway through the destruction of another wing. You are swamped... quickly. A loadout of 3 Stiletto II's, 2 Infernos (I think), and 24 (i think) Hornets on a Myrmidon using a Subach HL-7 and a quad-firing Prometheus S. You easily survive because of maneuverability and speed, against the Herc Mk.II's in the gauntlet. However, what happens when you are swamped with 4+ equals? Most of us can take 4 myrmidons in a 4-on-1 dogfight without losing. Sometimes you get lucky and make it out with no damage, sometimes you are dead with a hundred missiles locked on you. It's all about timing.
So, what does that have to do with a Sathanas v. Orion? It should show that, in a fair fight, either could win.
I actually recommend someone FREDs a mission for Karajorma and TrashMan. Put in that mission, built for a clean build of FS2 retail. Karajorma, take control of the Sathanas. TrashMan, take control of the Orion. Duke it out, starting the mission in a broadside (both jumped in next to each other). Beam-free-all for both, and take control. I recommend both of you try to outmaneuver eachother.
In that mission, If I was the orion, I'd try to take out the Sathanas's engines, and blow it up in a blind spot. If I was the Sathanas, I'd try to use my HP and ram into the Orion, until that ship blows up (fairly quickly, mind you). Remember that the Sathanas has both speed and up-front power. The orion has maneuverabilty and spread weaponry.
If the FS universe was the same as our own, I'd put money on human determination, and say the orion will win. A good captain would disable every beam possible before the second salvo. The terran captain would have to be desperate to take on the Sathanas 1v1. Sufficent maneuvering and disarming the SJ should be sufficent. Remember that the Shivans are colony-minded. Do what is best for everyone, even at the cost of yourself. They would probably do anything to win, if it was for a goal.
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I don't need to do a multiplayer test to show that the Orion can't win. The Sathanas' engines comprise 42% of the Sathanas' total hitpoints. There is no way that an Orion can do that kind of damage to a Sathanas in time to prevent it getting out of range of the Orions guns. So even if it hits the engines with every single shot it won't disable more than two of them before the Sathanas is out of range.
Once out of range it simply turns around and blasts the hell out of the Orion. The Orion has no defence against this tactic. It's just simply too slow to keep up with the Sathanas. Until someone can suggest a counter tactic to that I see no point in wasting my time with a multiplayer test.
Besides FREDding a mission wouldn't work anyway unless the crash caused by having too many damaged subsystems on the HUD has been fixed.
If the FS universe was the same as our own, I'd put money on human determination, and say the orion will win. A good captain would disable every beam possible before the second salvo.
Sorry but that's utter nonsense. The Orion won't survive the first salvo from the Sathanas.
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If the FS universe was the same as our own, I'd put money on human determination, and say the orion will win. A good captain would disable every beam possible before the second salvo. The terran captain would have to be desperate to take on the Sathanas 1v1. Sufficent maneuvering and disarming the SJ should be sufficent. Remember that the Shivans are colony-minded. Do what is best for everyone, even at the cost of yourself. They would probably do anything to win, if it was for a goal.
Why are you assuming that the shivans are morons? We have 0 proof that shivans are of this 'colony mind'. Whereas my expanation using cannocal evidense shows that the sathanas is fully capable of jumping out and returning at optimal firing range, just as the orion would seem to be able to.
And heres something else to chew on;
If the orion is behind the sathanas in the blindspot, and the sathanas launches bomers (cause omg the bay is RIGHT THERE) you now have hundreds of bombers at point blank range. Compare that to the orions fighter compliment and try to take out all that firepower.
"Just disable the sathanas."
2 flaws with that;
one, it doesnt stop it from jumping out.
two, if you're suggesting this you obviosuly have never tried. See you in an hour if you do
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Wow, how did this thread become so big?
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trashman keeps trying to win
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trashman keeps trying to win
And failing.........
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*Sigh*
Have fun with this thread... I'm not returning again....
But Whatever.... i dont carry anyways....
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ROTFLMAO!
Unbelievable. You're probably the only person in the world who would unapologetically use altered tables in something like this. I suppose the fact that degrading the Shivan's beams would also have the effect of making the Sathanas's rear LRed less effective wasn't a problem then? :lol:
Now that you mention it it will take it 2 more seconds between each shot...not that that will affect the battle in any significant way. I did use modded tabels but the total differences shouldn't add up to more than a 5% total gain for the Orion in firepower in this scenario..
Hell, I can repet the mission with clean tables, but as I told you before, I did a similar mission when I first got FS2 and it stil lended up the same way.. Not that it matter..
And the LREd can be easily destroyed by the Orion - resulting in hte Orion being hit once, and hte Sath loosing it's rear cannon and having it's belly exposed.....
We never see that kind of pinpoint accuracy in the game. Why are you using it now? Furthermore why are you only giving this ability to the terrans? Yet again you're continually stacking the odds in favour of the side of the argument you are on regardless of how fair it is.
Think again. I've seen many times during the game that sometimes capships target weapons..especialyl on the Sath since it's a big target (and even more common if they attack the sath from the front, since it's the closest system/turret for them to target)
The entire argument between the two of us is as to whether a single Orion and kill a Sathanas. If you are willing to conceed that it could only happen if the Sathanas pilot was a complete idiot I'm willing to end the matter here.
In that scenario yes...and possibly in another one.. You see, the Sath captain doens't have to be a idiot - he can just be sure of himself.
For instance, he can try and turn around immediatley... or he can try to bring hte rear cannon to bear.
That agressive tactic sounds far more logical for Shivans than running for 15 minutes while the enemy is shooting at you and then turning around.
Now all by itself those two tactics aren't bad... IF they work. They can work, but there's no guarantee.. Of course, in order to win the Orion's captain has to be a good one. He should take out the rear cannon if possible and try to stay at the saths side or below it.
If the rear cannon is lost the Shivans captain would probably try to bing hte front ones to bear by turnign immediately. that probably won't work well, but how long will it take for hte shivans to abandon that tactic? How much damage will the sathanas take before that? It's engines compromisea big percentage of it' HP, but if it's spends several minutes trying to catch the Orion in it's weapons arc it will suffer quite some damage....and how much of that damage will be to it's engines? slowing it down..
If the Sath's captain starts the pull away and turn tactic then, then the Sath is in far worse position - it's allready taken some damage (? of it to the engines) and it's running from a Orion ow can again, shoot at it's engines, slowing it down...increasing the time it takes for it to pull away enough...and again giving the Orion more time to hit it's engines...
I'd say a Orion has good chances to win in this scenario too, but I wouldn't call the Sath's captain stupid...
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Ehm,sorry.
But I had the Orion win,without modifying the mission!I have a screenshot but even if compressed is too big to attach here.
1)The Ships were too close.I don't know why,but for most of the mission the Orion speed was 23-24 23-24 23-24 and only near the end the Sathanas could advance.
2)As I said,the ships were too close and fired with their laser turrets,targeting subsystems ecc. The Orion could fire with just one BGreen, I don't know if Karajorma has disabled it with FRED or theturrets on the Sathanas have destroyed it quite istantly.
3)Karajorma paid attention on the backG,but the planet has to be slightly rotated :D
4)Anyway an orion can be placed 700 meters above the Sathanas or similar in order to use three BGreens.Unfortunately they don't aim on the Sath's engines,but if you see the screenshot the Orion has destroyed one engine.
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Now that you mention it it will take it 2 more seconds between each shot...not that that will affect the battle in any significant way. I did use modded tabels but the total differences shouldn't add up to more than a 5% total gain for the Orion in firepower in this scenario..
Hell, I can repet the mission with clean tables, but as I told you before, I did a similar mission when I first got FS2 and it stil lended up the same way.. Not that it matter..
Use clean tables. Until you've done that you've done **** all. And run the mission at 1x speed too. Running at greater than 1x seems to be triggering a bug in the beam code that favours the Orion.
Think again. I've seen many times during the game that sometimes capships target weapons..especialyl on the Sath since it's a big target (and even more common if they attack the sath from the front, since it's the closest system/turret for them to target)
Name one.
In that scenario yes...and possibly in another one.. You see, the Sath captain doens't have to be a idiot - he can just be sure of himself.
For instance, he can try and turn around immediatley... or he can try to bring hte rear cannon to bear.
That agressive tactic sounds far more logical for Shivans than running for 15 minutes while the enemy is shooting at you and then turning around.
Now all by itself those two tactics aren't bad... IF they work. They can work, but there's no guarantee.. Of course, in order to win the Orion's captain has to be a good one. He should take out the rear cannon if possible and try to stay at the saths side or below it.
If the rear cannon is lost the Shivans captain would probably try to bing hte front ones to bear by turnign immediately. that probably won't work well, but how long will it take for hte shivans to abandon that tactic? How much damage will the sathanas take before that? It's engines compromisea big percentage of it' HP, but if it's spends several minutes trying to catch the Orion in it's weapons arc it will suffer quite some damage....and how much of that damage will be to it's engines? slowing it down..
If the Sath's captain starts the pull away and turn tactic then, then the Sath is in far worse position - it's allready taken some damage (? of it to the engines) and it's running from a Orion ow can again, shoot at it's engines, slowing it down...increasing the time it takes for it to pull away enough...and again giving the Orion more time to hit it's engines...
I'd say a Orion has good chances to win in this scenario too, but I wouldn't call the Sath's captain stupid...
And you're assuming that the Shivans have no idea of the capabilities of their craft. Do you not think that if there is a big gap in the Sathanas' defences the Shivans will already know about it?
Yet again you're assuming that the Shivans are stupid. They really aren't.
And that's before we count the sheer amount of damage needed to disable the Sathanas. We're talking about 42% of the hull here. With some of those engines actually out of range of the Orions beams. The Orion couldn't possibly hope to take down all of a Saths engines.
Ehm,sorry.
But I had the Orion win,without modifying the mission!
Using 64x speed right? Try it at 1x for the reasons I mentioned above.
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Well,sometimes the Slashes fired late as well as the BGreen.I don't know if this happened bacause of the speed.
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I noticed a problem with the game code....
Sometimes, after an order is given, they start to ignore another ships. My example? The MP mission where you are to escort 3 NTC Aeolus's. I gave them commands, and they hit the cruiser. One salvo, and two minutes later, they ignored the cruiser I told them to destroy. I had to repeat the command for them to blow up the NTC.
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did you tell your wingmen to ignore the cruiser? if so, then thats why.
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Use clean tables. Until you've done that you've done **** all. And run the mission at 1x speed too. Running at greater than 1x seems to be triggering a bug in the beam code that favours the Orion.
What part of "I made the same mission wiht retail FS2 and it stil lended up teh same" didn't you inderstand?
Name one.
It's not a scripted/triggered event - the aI does it on its own. But an example - HIGH NOON.
And you're assuming that the Shivans have no idea of the capabilities of their craft. Do you not think that if there is a big gap in the Sathanas' defences the Shivans will already know about it?
Yet again you're assuming that the Shivans are stupid. They really aren't.
No I'm not. They are aware o the capabilites of thei craft but:
a) Are they aware of hte Orions capabilites?
b) Do they know what the Orion will try to do?
c) Can they know for sure they won't manage to catch it without running first?
And that's before we count the sheer amount of damage needed to disable the Sathanas. We're talking about 42% of the hull here. With some of those engines actually out of range of the Orions beams. The Orion couldn't possibly hope to take down all of a Saths engines.
You don't need to disable, only slow it down a bit. It adds up.
So you see, the Orion would need a excellent tactic and exceelent execution to pull this off, not to mention a shivan captain that wil ltry to shoot him down with the tail beam first...or won't run away IMMEDIATELY....
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did you tell your wingmen to ignore the cruiser? if so, then thats why.
they have been attacked by oter forces and responded.
Someone here is trying to defend the Sathanas,someone else is defending the Orion etc. this discussion is not balanced.
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Oro.................. :eek2:
I still say let two people take control of each, and see who wins.
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As I said before Bob-San, an attempt to FRED that mission would result in a mission that crashes FS2 when played.
What part of "I made the same mission wiht retail FS2 and it stil lended up teh same" didn't you inderstand?
It's not that I don't understand you. It's that I think you're talking bollocks and no such thing happens. Same way that you said that the mission you posted resulted in the destruction of the Sathanas and yet when tested it actually resulted in the destruction of the Orion.
Post that retail mission. Oh yes you can't cause you lost it with your hard drive. You've already presented missions which you claim did one thing and in fact did something else when tested. In fact by testing using tables that favoured the Orion you have actually cheated in favour of the side you claim is better. I'm not taking a single word you say in this discussion on trust because quite frankly you haven't done a thing to earn that trust.
Either remake it or shut the **** up about it. Cause I'm not going to count a mission I've never tried myself as evidence for anything.
It's not a scripted/triggered event - the aI does it on its own. But an example - HIGH NOON.
And when in High Noon does either ship specifically target the turrets on the other ship? I've got an awful feeling that you're simply assuming that the random subsystem destruction that is an inevitable part of the game is intentional because it suits your arguments to do so.
No I'm not. They are aware o the capabilites of thei craft but:
a) Are they aware of hte Orions capabilites?
Given the fact that they've destroyed several by the time we first see the Sathanas I'd say yes.
b) Do they know what the Orion will try to do?
Given that they've had to jump in and get very close to the Sathanas in the exact spot where it has a weak spot, there's a pretty good chance that they will. There's no sensible reason for performing that manouver other than to attempt what you suggest after all.
c) Can they know for sure they won't manage to catch it without running first?
I still think that they can probably rotate on the spot and catch the Orion despite what you think.
So you see, the Orion would need a excellent tactic and exceelent execution to pull this off, not to mention a shivan captain that wil ltry to shoot him down with the tail beam first...or won't run away IMMEDIATELY....
So in other words a Shivan captain who doesn't attempt to use the weapons at his disposale to kill the enemy :rolleyes:
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I know it crashes. However, it would be a great battle if it DIDNT crash... how about both of you quickly FRED a mission with each of your scenarios, and don't test it yourself. The general rules are only 3 ships allowed; GTD Orion, SJ Sathanas, and Alpha 1. Post an ignore on Alpha 1, and only allow training lasers (to prevent the use of Alpha 1 to disable any part of the Sathanas). 4km out from the battle, have them duke it out. Both of you should follow these rules if you really want to test this out accurately. No biased on either side, and testable for both. Also, Trashman, save a copy to C: ... that way Karajorma can look in there to make sure no unfair advantage is to Terrans. You can do the same, make sure there is no unfair advantage to the Shivans.
It's up to you, though.
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The too-many subsystems on screen crash was fixed ages ago, AFAIK it's still fixed.
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I know it crashes. However, it would be a great battle if it DIDNT crash... how about both of you quickly FRED a mission with each of your scenarios, and don't test it yourself. The general rules are only 3 ships allowed; GTD Orion, SJ Sathanas, and Alpha 1. Post an ignore on Alpha 1, and only allow training lasers (to prevent the use of Alpha 1 to disable any part of the Sathanas). 4km out from the battle, have them duke it out. Both of you should follow these rules if you really want to test this out accurately. No biased on either side, and testable for both. Also, Trashman, save a copy to C: ... that way Karajorma can look in there to make sure no unfair advantage is to Terrans. You can do the same, make sure there is no unfair advantage to the Shivans.
It's up to you, though.
I've already done that. I posted a mission and challenged Trashman to come up with any tactics he cared to in order to beat it. I'm still waiting.
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Kaj, you again completely miss the point.
In a sense you are "metagaming" if I can use this tearm when you claim that the Shivan captain has to be an idiot.
A Sathanas has never fought a Orion before 1 on 1, so how on earth can the shivan know that a certain tactic WON'T work?
Rotating on the spot can very well work - depending on the position and skill of the Orion.
Trying to fry it with the rear LRed might also work - MIGHT
The thing about battle is - it allways depends on the actions of BOTH combatants. There's no way for the Shivan comander know where the Orion will go next or what it will target. You base your strategy on the expert knowlede og both ships and varous simulations - the shivan captain doesn't have thet luxury.
So no, he doesn't have to be a idiot.
It's that I think you're talking bollocks and no such thing happens. Same way that you said that the mission you posted resulted in the destruction of the Sathanas and yet when tested it actually resulted in the destruction of the Orion.
Strange how the mission works for other people, eh?
And when in High Noon does either ship specifically target the turrets on the other ship? I've got an awful feeling that you're simply assuming that the random subsystem destruction that is an inevitable part of the game is intentional because it suits your arguments to do so.
I never saikd the ships fire from every availabe weapon on a singel turret - but every now and then the Collie fired the Saths beam cannons (that's cause I didn't destroy them all - left 2) untill it disarmed hte Sath.
Aditioanly, we have to clear one thing - are we talking about a stricly in-game (FRED) Sath vs. Orion scenario, or are we talking about a tactical battle ina FS universe (coause I'm sure both there and in RL you can target weapons...)
In concusion you fail to see the obvious flaw in your logic - the question asked here is CAN a Orion beat a Sat (and vice-versa) not will it do jsut that every time. Both ship can jump out ya know... but in that case no one would ever win. So for the sake of reasoning we'll assume they will both fight to the death.
So you're basicly outright denying ANY possiblity that a Orion could destroy a sath other that a Sath's captain is a idiot..
If you realyl think that, then according to you some of the greatests generals and tacticians in history are also idiots - since they lost in the end (mostly due to NOT having a full picture of the battlefield, which commanders rarely do)
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In a sense you are "metagaming" if I can use this tearm when you claim that the Shivan captain has to be an idiot.
A Sathanas has never fought a Orion before 1 on 1, so how on earth can the shivan know that a certain tactic WON'T work?
Sorry but you're cheating to even suggest such a thing. The Shivans have fought Orions. They do know the strengths and weaknesses of the design.
The reason you're cheating is that you are suggesting that the Orion leaps in performing a manouver that expressly exploits a weakness in the Sathanas' design. Why are you saying that the Terrans have the information to perform such a manouver but insisting that the Shivans are ignorant of the Orions flaws despite the fact that the Orion is an older design which the Shivans have encountered several times before the appearance of the first Orion?
Yet again you're stacking the odds in your favour by giving one side information, weapons or tactics that you do not allow the other side to use. It's not fair. If the Terrans know the Sathanas well enough to perform a manouver like this (one which would be suicidal against a differently armed ship like say the Colossus) then why do you insist that the Shivans would know nothing about their enemy?
The thing about battle is - it allways depends on the actions of BOTH combatants. There's no way for the Shivan comander know where the Orion will go next or what it will target. You base your strategy on the expert knowlede og both ships and varous simulations - the shivan captain doesn't have thet luxury.
So no, he doesn't have to be a idiot.
So far you've only proved that the Orion will win if the Sathanas uses AI-Chase. The Sathanas commander would have to be an idiot to do that. Find another senario where the Orion can win and I might take you more seriously.
Strange how the mission works for other people, eh?
Who? Name one person who has tested the mission at 1x and had the Orion win.
I never saikd the ships fire from every availabe weapon on a singel turret - but every now and then the Collie fired the Saths beam cannons (that's cause I didn't destroy them all - left 2) untill it disarmed hte Sath.
Prove that it didn't simply fire at the Sathanas and happen to hit the beams.
Aditioanly, we have to clear one thing - are we talking about a stricly in-game (FRED) Sath vs. Orion scenario, or are we talking about a tactical battle ina FS universe (coause I'm sure both there and in RL you can target weapons...)
Which ever one you want. I'll beat you on either. But once you've picked one do me the favour of sticking with it.
So you're basicly outright denying ANY possiblity that a Orion could destroy a sath other that a Sath's captain is a idiot..
If you realyl think that, then according to you some of the greatests generals and tacticians in history are also idiots - since they lost in the end (mostly due to NOT having a full picture of the battlefield, which commanders rarely do)
I can't think of any great general who lost a battle when he had the overwhelming superiority involved in a Sathanas vs Orion clash. Bear in mind that what you said about having a full picture of the battlefield is exactly the kind of misdirection you like to bring to these arguments. There is only one picture to be had. This is a 1 on 1 battle between the two. No reinforcements, no hidden forces ready for an ambush. Only a 2km destroyer sitting 500m away from you. I can't name a single great general who lost a battle which was that obvious. Feel free to name one.
You've yet to prove that a Sathanas can be beaten except for the ridiculous mission you posted earlier. You're yet to prove that the Sathanas can't simply rotate on the spot and blow it up. You're yet to prove that the Orion can get into that position without getting blown up.
You like to make it sound like the Orion could win most of the engagements from that position. It wouldn't. I doubt it would win any at all but I'm willing to conceed that given exceptional circumstances it might be possible for an Orion to win but the circumstances would have to be very exceptional. If you're willing to say the same then yet again I'd consider the matter closed. But if you want to say that the Orion has a reasonable chance of winning you'd better come up with something a damn sight more substancial than simply saying "Alexander the Great or Hannibal Barca could do it"!
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Yet again you're stacking the odds in your favour by giving one side information, weapons or tactics that you do not allow the other side to use. It's not fair. If the Terrans know the Sathanas well enough to perform a manouver like this (one which would be suicidal against a differently armed ship like say the Colossus) then why do you insist that the Shivans would know nothing about their enemy?
I'm not.
But the Orion doesn't have any such balant weakneses... lack of fighterdefence is one, but it would take time for tha Sathana to capitalize on it. It takes time to lauch fighters nad for those same fighters to gain space superiority over the Orions fightercover.
The thing about battle is - it allways depends on the actions of BOTH combatants. There's no way for the Shivan comander know where the Orion will go next or what it will target. You base your strategy on the expert knowlede og both ships and varous simulations - the shivan captain doesn't have thet luxury.
Strange how the mission works for other people, eh?
Who? Name one person who has tested the mission at 1x and had the Orion win.
Lt.GeneralMobius
I never saikd the ships fire from every availabe weapon on a singel turret - but every now and then the Collie fired the Saths beam cannons (that's cause I didn't destroy them all - left 2) untill it disarmed hte Sath.
Prove that it didn't simply fire at the Sathanas and happen to hit the beams.
You prove that it did.
Aditioanly, we have to clear one thing - are we talking about a stricly in-game (FRED) Sath vs. Orion scenario, or are we talking about a tactical battle ina FS universe (coause I'm sure both there and in RL you can target weapons...)
Which ever one you want. I'll beat you on either. But once you've picked one do me the favour of sticking with it.
That depends.. Do you want to drag in weapons targeting into the debate or not?
You've yet to prove that a Sathanas can be beaten except for the ridiculous mission you posted earlier. You're yet to prove that the Sathanas can't simply rotate on the spot and blow it up. You're yet to prove that the Orion can get into that position without getting blown up.
You've yet to prove that it can't ;)
You like to make it sound like the Orion could win most of the engagements from that position. It wouldn't. I doubt it would win any at all but I'm willing to conceed that given exceptional circumstances it might be possible for an Orion to win but the circumstances would have to be very exceptional. If you're willing to say the same then yet again I'd consider the matter closed. But if you want to say that the Orion has a reasonable chance of winning you'd better come up with something a damn sight more substancial than simply saying "Alexander the Great or Hannibal Barca could do it"!
Agreed. The circumnstances would indeed need to be exceptional (or the commander and crew really great and those on the sath mediocre at best)
Fixed the quoting - Karajorma
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I'm not.
But the Orion doesn't have any such balant weakneses... lack of fighterdefence is one, but it would take time for tha Sathana to capitalize on it. It takes time to lauch fighters nad for those same fighters to gain space superiority over the Orions fightercover.
It does have a blatant weakness. It's lack of speed. Yet when I exploited its lack of speed you launched into a page long rant about it not being appropriate for the Sathanas to do that.
Who? Name one person who has tested the mission at 1x and had the Orion win.
Lt.GeneralMobius
Take a look at his posting immeditately following that one. I'll leave it for him to confirm but it appears as though he ran the test using time compression.
That depends.. Do you want to drag in weapons targeting into the debate or not?
The LRed issue is trivial. I don't need it to prove that a sathanas can't be beaten easily. Do as you please just stick to whichever side you come down on the side of.
You've yet to prove that a Sathanas can be beaten except for the ridiculous mission you posted earlier. You're yet to prove that the Sathanas can't simply rotate on the spot and blow it up. You're yet to prove that the Orion can get into that position without getting blown up.
You've yet to prove that it can't ;)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You've admitted yourself that the situation required is exceptional so there is no doubt as to who is making the extraordinary claim. Therefore the onus is on you to prove yourself right. Not on me to prove you wrong.
Furthermore I'm the only person (with the possible exception of Mobius who's mission is irrelevent to this discussion) who has provided an objective mission so far. Why should it continue to be my responsibility to prove you wrong when all you've contributed thus far is a mission that proves nothing beyond the fact that you appear to have no knowledge of how to script a capship battle fairly?
The same goes for your claims that the subsystems were being targetted or any of your other assertions.
Do the work rather than claiming I need to. I've already done my share.
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I'm not.
But the Orion doesn't have any such balant weakneses... lack of fighterdefence is one, but it would take time for tha Sathana to capitalize on it. It takes time to lauch fighters nad for those same fighters to gain space superiority over the Orions fightercover.
It does have a blatant weakness. It's lack of speed. Yet when I exploited its lack of speed you launched into a page long rant about it not being appropriate for the Sathanas to do that.
If you had a ship that far more powerfull than your opponents, would you fly around for ten minutes and then attack (getting inevitably damaged in the process) or would you try to turn and hit it immediately (even tough it may end up unsucesfully)?
Shivans are agressive. What do you think they would do sooner?
You've yet to prove that it can't ;)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You've admitted yourself that the situation required is exceptional so there is no doubt as to who is making the extraordinary claim. Therefore the onus is on you to prove yourself right. Not on me to prove you wrong.
Furthermore I'm the only person (with the possible exception of Mobius who's mission is irrelevent to this discussion) who has provided an objective mission so far. Why should it continue to be my responsibility to prove you wrong when all you've contributed thus far is a mission that proves nothing beyond the fact that you appear to have no knowledge of how to script a capship battle fairly?
The same goes for your claims that the subsystems were being targetted or any of your other assertions.
Do the work rather than claiming I need to. I've already done my share.
Since when do I *HAVE* to prove anything to you more than you have to me?
Specific circumstances don't automaticly make a claim exceptional... And even if it was it doesn't automaticly mean that I have to prove it right any more than you have to prove it wrong.
And hte mission works. In both retail and SCP. With normal tables. At 1x.
Now if you excuse me, I got a test to write....
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Hang on a sec. This discrepency between what you're getting and what I'm getting is starting to worry me. Any differences caused by what difficulty level we're running on should not be capable of causing such a large difference between the outcomes on two different PCs.
Are you telling me that you have run the exact same mission you posted (LeBigTest.fs2) on both retail and FS2_Open and in both cases the sathanas lost?
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Hey there. I’m kind of with Karajorma on this. I realize I’m a newbie as I only ever played Freespace 2 ‘pure’ for the first time about two years ago, then just played the original campaign again a couple of weeks ago on SCP. I’m three quarters through ‘Derelict’ right now (and am writing a walkthrough too, for other noobs) and although I don’t know my ass from a Keyser or a Trebuchet I don’t think that an Orion can take out one of those big whatamacallits.
But, first to address the original thread. It inspired me to load up FRED and go through enough of the tutorial to get a Colossus and ‘five’ Orions attacking it. No matter what I did, they all got slaughtered. Actually I thought it was so much fun that I spent most of yesterday trying different things; side by side, space out, surrounded with the Colossus encircled (and using six Orions), but I just couldn’t get it close to an even battle.
First I was running waypoints and then just gave up and pretended the Indians had the chuckwagon circled and they still got slaughtered. Of course, I don’t know the difference between the different beam weapons or where they’re located (what is LRed?) so I would stagger the relative heights and distances of the Orions but they still got slaughtered.
(In the mean time I made a very balanced battle between the original tutorial ships off in the distance, the Potomep against the Munin and Hugin plus an extra cruiser, all on waypoints. Was nice to see (after all the ColvsOrion battles) that the corvette actually pulled it off once in awhile, otherwise there was only one badly damaged cruiser left).
I realize that this doesn't mean a thing and this has all been talked about before a million times and most of you gurus have probably nuked Collosuses (not my callusness) a million times with three Hercs and a frigate before.
Anyways, as to the Sath vs Orion thing, I downloaded Karajorma’s version and tried it many times. No contest, with or without time compression, I never saw the Orion come close to winning. I would’ve downloaded Trashmans version but it doesn’t exist anymore as of September 17/2006. But since he admits to altering tables (I’ve been using FRED for ONE day, I know what that means) on his own system, then I’m not sure what the ‘demonstration’ is as I haven’t seen it as it doesn’t exist anymore.
The onus is on Trashman to provide the proof. If you come to me saying that you have a ‘perpetual motion machine’ that has been debunked by scientists for years and goes against all laws of physics and even common sense, and then you say ‘prove that I *don't* have a perpetual motion machine', what do you think we're going to do? Ignore you. The burden of proof is upon you to back up these fantastical claims.
Anyways, thanks for getting me interested in FRED. I forgot about my current campaign for a day. Whatever you’re differences are on this ‘issue’, it’s a fun game, glad you’re all around to discuss it.
And that my fellow wingnuts, is my first post.
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Welcome, please be prepared to be beamed and spammed and given a longwinded speech by someone annoying who forum whores.
And I agree with you.
And the LRed is the single beam canon on the read of the ship.
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Actually I buried my first post so far down into such a tired, meaningless thread that I'm hoping to be one of the first to avoid that big ugly green graphic thing they use to welcome newcomers here. And the accompanying blurb. Seen it many times the last couple of weeks digging for information that's very old and out of date. Thanks for agreeing with me.
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It used to actually be of some signifigance a few years ago because there was a standardization, now its 'omg i can be funny and add my own parts to make it bettererererererererrrrr1!!!11!!!111'.
And siding with kara is typically the right answer to begin with, you'll do well here :P
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I not be sidin' with anyone yer ol' scallywag. I just be usin' the ol' wizardery, err, scientific approach to decidin' on what in the universe you can believe, an' that what yer cannot. If yer get me drift.
And someone has been playing pirates a little too much, mee thinks.
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It's the word filter, it'll all be back to normal by tomorrow (right guys? huh? huh?)
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Good ol' IHTFPFDSFST (http://www.geocities.com/ngtm1r/IHTFPFDSFST.htm) time.
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It used to actually be of some signifigance a few years ago because there was a standardization, now its 'omg i can be funny and add my own parts to make it bettererererererererrrrr1!!!11!!!111'.
Quoted for effin' truth.
As for the argument ... I would pay good money to see a Kara vs Trashman multipayer duel with an Orion vs a Sath, granted that they use teamspeak for great hilarity.
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I proposed this too....
karajorma takes control of the Sath :lol:
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We need Aldo flying something as a referee, maybe a poseidon or Elyssiium ?
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I could fly the Terra...nice referee....
Of course,ehm,I'm the PRESIDENT of karajorma's Fan Club=it doesn't mean that he is advanced in the battle....or not? :D
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The thing with a one on one battle is that I'd win every time. The only objection Trashman can raise to my tactic of simply flying away for 10 minutes is that if the Sathanas did lose an engine or two it would begin to slow its top speed down.
The game however does not reflect this fact so it's pretty impractical for that point. What it might resolve is whether the Sathanas could simply revolve on the spot and simply blow the Orion away.
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come on several times trashman has stated that he only trying to prove it is possible for the orion to win. and every time you seem to ignore him.
oh yeah I played you mission 1x time compression and guess what the orion won.
3 times out of 5
using unmodified tables
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come on several times trashman has stated that he only trying to prove it is possible for the orion to win. and every time you seem to ignore him.
oh yeah I played you mission 1x time compression and guess what the orion won.
3 times out of 5
using unmodified tables
Simply put: that's not possible.
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come on several times trashman has stated that he only trying to prove it is possible for the orion to win. and every time you seem to ignore him.
I haven't ignored him. I've even acknowledged that point. Read back a few posts and you'll see. Put simply I believe the Orion can win. But the circumstances have to be exceptional. What I take issue to though is Trashman saying that the Orion can win in the circumstances he has set his mission up to use. Because he has scripted the mission in a manner that is unfair to the Sathanas.
1) The Orion starts in the optimal firing position with both ships at 100% hull. This would never happen. The Orion must somehow get to that position. Trashman has pretty much ignored my exceptions to that fact waving them away with some nonsense about the Sathanas being distracted or something.
2) The Sathanas has been given orders that do not allow it to make optimal use of its guns. The AI-chase SEXP tells the AI to close with an enemy ship and then turn to give it a broadside. The Sathanas has no broadside. It is designed around the concept of a frontal attack. This means that in Trashman's mission the Sathanas is manouvering to present its weakest armorment to the Orion.
In other words Trashman's mission proves nothing. I could script a mission in which a fenris kills the Colossus if I was similarly unfair.
oh yeah I played you mission 1x time compression and guess what the orion won.
3 times out of 5
using unmodified table.
So the sathanas won twice? Even though Trashman made a mission that was hugely unfair to the Sathanas it still didn't lose every time. So how much worse do you think the Orion would do in a mission that was fair to both sides?
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I really don't get it why is this continuing?
Havn't I stated from the begining that the Orion is vastly inferioir to the Sathanas and can only win in an exceptional/lucky circumstance (but it still can win)?
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Yep. The matter was ended as far as I was concerned till BS403 decided to stir it all up again.
The only matter I still care about is why you were getting different results to me (and only then if it indicates an SCP bug). But since you probably ran a different mission from the one you supplied me with on retail it pretty much explains everything.
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sorry :(
I didn't mean to stir it up again. I didn't read the last few posts and I was mad about something vented it in this thread for some strange reason. Anyways from now on I'll think before i post
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I bet that an Hecate is better.Even without two frontal BGreens.