Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stealth on September 06, 2006, 02:21:10 pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060906/hl_afp/healthobesityaustraliaconference_060906093244
SYDNEY (AFP) - The global obesity pandemic combined with society's anti-fat bias is more damaging to women than to men, an expert has warned at an international conference.
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"Being obese and female is as bad as it gets," Berit Heitmann, a nutritional and medical research advisor to the Danish government, told a meeting of world obesity experts gathered in Sydney Wednesday.
Not only were obese women socially stigmatised more than their male counterparts, but their health suffered to a greater degree, delegates at the 10th International Congress on Obesity heard.
Heitmann said that although gender differences in the obesity epidemic were narrowing, the vicious circle of obesity and poverty still had a greater impact on women.
Poverty was well known as both a contributor to and result of obesity, a condition that was five times more common among poor people in the developed world, she said.
A recent Finnish study showed that obese women faced more job discrimination and earned less, not only compared to men, but also to women of normal weight and obese men with a similar education and job.
"Appearance and size seem related to getting and keeping both job and salary," she said.
Prejudice began early in life for obese females, with children as young as three shunning their obese peers, Heitmann said.
Family, teachers and healthcare professionals were also more biased against obese girls and women than boys and men, she said.
"Obese women are deprived of friendships, intimate relationships, social interactions, education, income and respect," Heitmann said.
In the realm of education, with fewer grants and scholarships awarded to obese women, she said.
In addition to social disadvantages, obese women suffered more from diabetes, hypertension and heart disease than men with the same body mass index, Heitmann said.
"The risk of developing diabetes type two for an obese man is about half that of an obese woman," with similar figures for hypertension, she said.
Paradoxically, while obesity appeared to cause more disease in women, death rates were similar among the sexes, she said.
Women's tendency to carry more fat on the backside than on the stomach, where it was more dangerous, may explain this, she said.
Research dedicated to alleviating the burden of obesity on women's health included a study showing women could achieve weight loss more effectively when exercise was augmented by a higher protein diet.
Professor Donald Layman, whose 2005 study was published by the Journal of Nutrition, reported that higher protein diets, when combined with exercise, meant dieters tended to lose fat rather than muscle.
Although Layman was invited to speak by the lobby group Meat and Livestock Australia, Manny Oakes of CSIRO -- Australia's government body for scientific research -- called Layman's results exciting.
The obesity conference, which is held every four years, has drawn more than 2,000 academics and health professionals to seek practical ways of fighting the greatest single contributor to chronic disease worldwide.
The World Health Organisation says more than a billion people -- nearly one in six of the world's population -- are overweight, outnumbering the 800 million who are under-nourished.
i've bolded the parts that either make me sick, or that i laughed myself silly about
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So... the ladies get more diseases, but survive more? :wtf:
And they have big butts, but smaller stomachs (that I can believe :p)
Practical ways of fighting obesity... there's that genetic modification technique... there's the roman way...
Yea! Rome has the answer!
How bout we take away the fat people's food, and give it to the poor people. Surely All overweight people eat enough for two[/sarcasm]
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I am so glad I'm not obese. Sometime it just boggles my mind how people can get so heavy.
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Same.
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Ditto.
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How to combat obesity? Easy!
1. Get rid of the supersize option, or enforce far more stringent guidelines on what kind of foodstuffs should be put into fast-food.
2. Stop saying "you look lovely" when you know they look like an elephant.
3. Don't buy your kid that new Nintendo for Christmas. Get them a bike or some roller skates and send them out into the big bad world to get some good old healthy exercise.
4. Chocolate is not a fruit.
There. Sorted. And if you're still incapable of saying "no" to that fourth hamburger for breakfast then you should have any health benefits you have revoked as you clearly don't care about your own health, so why should anyone else.
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5. Outlaw elevators and force people to use the stairs.
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even for ppl on the 9th floor?
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even for ppl on the 9th floor?
No, even for people on the 20th floor.
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As someone who had to lift a 21 inch CRT monitor around when going to LAN parties, I think that's a bad idea.
As someone who sees obese people stuff down more calories in a meal than some families get for a week.. go right ahead. Make them work for their meals.
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How to combat obesity? Easy!
1. Get rid of the supersize option, or enforce far more stringent guidelines on what kind of foodstuffs should be put into fast-food.
2. Stop saying "you look lovely" when you know they look like an elephant.
3. Don't buy your kid that new Nintendo for Christmas. Get them a bike or some roller skates and send them out into the big bad world to get some good old healthy exercise.
4. Chocolate is not a fruit.
There. Sorted. And if you're still incapable of saying "no" to that fourth hamburger for breakfast then you should have any health benefits you have revoked as you clearly don't care about your own health, so why should anyone else.
Absolutely man!
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They should just tell all the kids at school it's okay to beat the **** outta the fat kids within the school grounds.
Getting punched in the ****ing face every day should be motivation enough for anyone to lose some ****ing weight. Or at the very least to make friends to protect them - which would boost their self-esteem and make them want to lose weight anyways.
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yeah. but what makes me so sick is the liberal american will say
"But you can't judge everyone... some people can't help it. they're just obese genetically, etc"
bull.
maybe .01% of obese people can't help it, due to medication, etc. but 1/3 of America's population doesn't have that excuse.
nearly one in six of the world's population -- are overweight, outnumbering the 800 million who are under-nourished
^^^ that is a shame. an effing shame.
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That's a good point actually Stealth. Whenever you see a really fat person you hear people say "maybe they can't help it.. perhaps some disease or something..".
I'd really like to know what the hell kind of disease does that... and why in all my 22 years I've never heard its name once.
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Depression, for one... Metabolic disorder is another.
Most psychical conditions are illnesses just like others, but metabolic disorder is actually something that affects individual cells' ability to produce energy.
Regardless, the reason for all obesity is simple - those people eat more than they consume. It's as simple as that. If they consumed as much energy as they ate, they would not gain weight. And most of fat people really do not have illnesses/medications affecting their metabolism.
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I must admit some skepticism with regards to the estimated number of under-nourished people, considering I expect it's very very difficult to get accurate numbers out of large areas of the World, sometimes through incalcitrent governments, and sometimes purely because the country is too big to do a reasonable consensus.
Other than that, most of what is said here doesn't surprise me.
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So I take it that although depression is a very real occurence in people, it's more a matter of failing willpower that they continue to eat?
That's a tricky one. I respect that people can become very depressed, but I don't have much sympathy for people who comfort eat... like smokers, they know what they're doing and haven't the guts to stop themselves.
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Okay, for first, depression is a real illness. It's a disturbance of cerebral chemistry and can be treated with right medication, although complete healing process (the time the nerve system takes to regain proper balance) takes a lot of time.
Like any physical illness, depressed people can not really control all their actions. One of the symptoms can very well be that they are frankly unable to eat less, or alternately can't bring themselves to do excersize, or both, and that is nothing related to "strength of will". There can be other symptoms as well, similar in this regard. For example, someone simply cannot work. Not that they wouldn't want, or that they didn't know how to do it, they just... can't. Not a question of strength of will in case of depression. It also can't be healed by strength of will. That's one definition of serious depression.
But for most people, it's simply a bad habit of eating too much and moving too little that causestheir problem. And as difficult a habit change is, most people are not hindered by psychological problems, so in their case it really is about strength of will.
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We do all have to accept that some folks are going to be larger than others with more body fat by genetics alone. Not everyone has a body builders body and not everyone has a runners body (or a combination therein). Its a proportionality thing as a "skinny" person with a small bone structure can be obese too.
It also doesn't necessarily have alot to do with how much you consume...but of what you're consuming. North Americans in general have a high caloric intake and thats myself included and I'm a beanpole. The human body can adapt fairly drastically to how much your eating but it can only do so much when its taking in a load of junk and you're sitting around. Now...I do alot of sitting. But I try and eat well (lots of water a day, the veggies, fruit, no soft drinks except on occasion, etc.) and do some exercise during the week.
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Depression is not a ****ing illness.
It's a faggoty excuse for stupid, self-centered people to sit around whining for attention.
And you can whine all you want about how 'they physically can't function'.
C'z they say the same goddamn thing about people not being physically or psychologically capable of hacking their own limbs off - but people do it all the ****ing time when they're out hiking and nature ****s them up.
Being sad is no excuse for being a whiney pussy. Suck it up and get on with your ****ing life....
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yeah. but what makes me so sick is the liberal american will say
"But you can't judge everyone... some people can't help it. they're just obese genetically, etc"
bull.
maybe .01% of obese people can't help it, due to medication, etc. but 1/3 of America's population doesn't have that excuse.
nearly one in six of the world's population -- are overweight, outnumbering the 800 million who are under-nourished
^^^ that is a shame. an effing shame.
Nah, this is one time where I'm (as a fairly liberal American) in complete agreement, unless you're in a coma, or to retarded (literally) to choose what you eat, there is a way for you to not be fat... except maybe kids, but it's their responsibility to lose weight once they get out of their parents clutches
And as to that 1/6th of the world's population... that's the saddest stat I've ever heard in my life.
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Depression is not a ****ing illness.
I know an0n's style but I can not let this past my eyes unfalsified.
an0n's last message was utter garbage. Clinical depression is an illness, period. There's quite accurate article about depression in Wikipedia: Clinical Depression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression)
No specific cause for depression has been identified, but a number of factors are believed to be involved.
Heredity – The tendency to develop depression may be inherited; there is some evidence that this disorder may run in families. A 2004 press release from the National Institute of Mental Health declares "major depression is thought to be 40-70 percent heritable, but likely involves an interaction of several genes with environmental events."
Physiology – There may be changes or imbalances in chemicals that transmit information in the brain, called neurotransmitters. Many modern antidepressant drugs increase levels of certain neurotransmitters, such as serotonin and norepinephrine. Although the causal relationship is unclear, it is known that antidepressant medications can relieve certain symptoms of depression, although critics point out that the relationship between serotonin, SSRIs, and depression usually is typically greatly oversimplified when presented to the public (see here). Recent research has suggested that there may be a link between depression and neurogenesis of the hippocampus. This horseshoe-shaped structure is a center for both mood and memory. Loss of neurons in the hippocampus is found in depression and correllates with impaired memory and dysthemic mood. The hippocampus regains mass when exposed to treatments that increase brain serotonin, and when regrown, mood and memory tend to be restored.
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Medical conditions – Certain illnesses, including cardiovascular disease[10], hepatitis, mononucleosis, hypothyroidism, and organic brain damage caused by degenerative conditions such as Parkinson disease, Multiple Sclerosis or by traumatic blunt force injury may contribute to depression, as may certain prescription drugs such as birth control pills and steroids. Gender dysphoria can also cause depression.
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Alcohol and other drugs – Alcohol can have a negative effect on mood, and misuse of alcohol, benzodiazepine-based tranquilizers, and sleeping medications can all play a major role in the length and severity of depression. The link between frequent cannabis use and depression is also widely documented, although the direction of causality remains in question; Dr. Salynn Boyles writes, ". . . research has linked pot smoking with depression and schizophrenia . . . daily use [of marijuana] was associated with a five-fold increase in later depression and anxiety among young women. But depression and anxiety were not predictive of later marijuana use."
Paradoxally, diet has also been supposed to be a possible reason for depression. Eat wrong -> depression -> eat more and equally wrong -> worse depression...
Regardless of the original reason, it is clear and has been for decades that clinical depression is an actual illness that usually doesn't get better by itself but requires treatment just like other illnessess that affect body.
:mad:
Depression is almost analogous to a brain tumor. If you get a brain tumor and your brains stop functioning as they should, no one blames you of being a faggotry person whining for attention. Well guess what, while tumor can affect chemical balance of brain, so can depression, and it's just as real as the brain tumor's effects.
</flamed>
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I think that every year, we should take one fat person and force feed them and see how big they get before they explode.
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Someone's been watching too much 'Seven' ;)
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I actually envy those people, they think it's hard to stop being fat? Try wanting to GAIN weight! :mad:
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I actually envy those people, they think it's hard to stop being fat? Try wanting to GAIN weight! :mad:
Saying Ditto twice in the same thread feels odd but...
Ditto.
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Me too, actually. 108 pounds is a bit light for my age.
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Someone's been watching too much 'Seven' ;)
Who?
And what is Seven? :nervous:
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Try wanting to GAIN weight! :mad:
What, you can't just lay around doing nothing and pigging out?
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I actually envy those people, they think it's hard to stop being fat? Try wanting to GAIN weight! :mad:
Tell me about it :sigh:
And yeah Mefustae, I've tried... but I got board
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Try wanting to GAIN weight! :mad:
What, you can't just lay around doing nothing and pigging out?
It's a bit hard when I'm doing at least 3 hours of activity a day and at max 12 hours. (Marching band is A LOT more of an athletic activity than you think, trust me)
Of course, everyone else just doesn't have an excuse at all.
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Try wanting to GAIN weight! :mad:
What, you can't just lay around doing nothing and pigging out?
I know I mean gain muscle mass. Although Ghost may mean fat, I dunno. :p
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Try wanting to GAIN weight! :mad:
What, you can't just lay around doing nothing and pigging out?
I know I mean gain muscle mass. Although Ghost may mean fat, I dunno. :p
Well, both actually.
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Who could have guessed this group was full of skinny guys.
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Who could have guessed this group was full of skinny guys.
Haha you beat me to it.
It's a bit ironic that a supposed group of "computer nerds" who sit, well, in front of their computers all day are anything but fat. :lol:
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I blame my metabolism. I eat like a horse but don't gain a pound.
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Someone's been watching too much 'Seven' ;)
Who?
And what is Seven? :nervous:
Seven was a movie about the Seven deadly Sins, it was a criminal whodunnit/thiller/Horror thing. For Gluttony, the criminal force-fed the victim to death through internal rupturing....
It was rather a gruesome movie :)
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Who could have guessed this group was full of skinny guys.
Haha you beat me to it.
It's a bit ironic that a supposed group of "computer nerds" who sit, well, in front of their computers all day are anything but fat. :lol:
Goes to show about stereotypes!
I even sit infront of a computer all day at work too...its worse on my back, eyes, and wrists than my weight. Gotta keep active tho...
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I blame my metabolism. I eat like a horse but don't gain a pound.
Wait till you hit 30 guys.... :lol: I gained 10 in one year.... up to 130 @5'10" LOL
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I'm 33 now and still have a fast metabolism, unfortunately, so fast that the speed is pulling my hairline back :nervous:
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They call it an epidemic...an EPIDEMIC, like it's POLIO or something. </quote>
5 years ago I was in the same boat, trying to gain weight. Just let age do it's thing. Now that I'm nearing my mid 20's, I'm approaching normal weight for someone my height.
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Who could have guessed this group was full of skinny guys.
Haha you beat me to it.
It's a bit ironic that a supposed group of "computer nerds" who sit, well, in front of their computers all day are anything but fat. :lol:
That's because computer nerds only drink Diet Coke and eat nothing else (unless they have a computer within arms-length of food)
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Who could have guessed this group was full of skinny guys.
Haha you beat me to it.
It's a bit ironic that a supposed group of "computer nerds" who sit, well, in front of their computers all day are anything but fat. :lol:
That's because computer nerds only drink Diet Coke and eat nothing else (unless they have a computer within arms-length of food)
That would be me LOL or more like food within arms-length of the computer.
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I wish they'd hurry up and invent Energy to Matter conversion, you could download tacos ;)
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HAHAH and then you'd get the GSA after you (Grocery Stores of America) for downloading free food LOL
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Who could have guessed this group was full of skinny guys.
Haha you beat me to it.
It's a bit ironic that a supposed group of "computer nerds" who sit, well, in front of their computers all day are anything but fat. :lol:
Goes to show about stereotypes!
I even sit infront of a computer all day at work too...its worse on my back, eyes, and wrists than my weight. Gotta keep active tho...
i agree. i sit in front of the computer all day at my job to. But i use tricks so that i don't get backache. We can lift up our office tables by and automatic lift so that i stand for about an half an hour to one hour in the morning and the afternon. We have a big office so i try to go to someone i have to contact instead of sending an email. But i also work out in a gym so i am no worried about getting fat
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The World Health Organisation says more than a billion people -- nearly one in six of the world's population -- are overweight, outnumbering the 800 million who are under-nourished.
Bring the two groups together, give the under-nourished guns, and legalise cannibalism. Problem solved.
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The World Health Organisation says more than a billion people -- nearly one in six of the world's population -- are overweight, outnumbering the 800 million who are under-nourished.
Bring the two groups together, give the under-nourished guns, and legalise cannibalism. Problem solved.
you are not called "SadisticSid" for nothing
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I wonder why there are standards that focus to generalize everyone to follow specific categories. Is it unhealthy to have excess body fat? Generally yes. Always? Hell ****ing no. Consider me, 24 years old, weighs 350lbs, measures 6'4, 46" waste, 35% body fat. The vast majority would consider this disgusting. However, there is more to it than simple BMI scale, which IMO is total horse****.
I eat 1800-2400 calories per day, and I prefer healthy over greasy. I can lift 220lbs with my arms or 500lbs with my legs, which is in addition to my own weight, not inclusive. My active duty blood pressure is 125/90 and resting pressure at 115/75. I can move large pieces of furniture by myself when a pair of two have trouble. Walking distance is limited only by my flat feet (ow!). I can cycle for miles without getting too tired. I've been solicited more than once by my college's football coach to try for center position. I'm regularly asked if I'm the bouncer whenever I'm at a bar. This doesnt fit the 'standard' profile of someone my size, now does it... So the question is, why do I weigh 350lbs? Three reasons, all of which are physical.
First of which is that I'm a survivor of a may-as-well-be near miscarriage, and I had many difficulties in my earlier development. One such difficulty is overall dyspraxia. It wouldn't be wrong to say it is similar to a mild form of Cerebral Palsy. My gross motor development is significantly hindered by this complication, and as a result I am slow and clumbsy, which itself leads to low metabolism. Thank god my fine motor development was well above average.
Secondly, I have a rare blood hemoglobin type, known as LAC Hemoglobin. This is due to someodd mutation during fetal growth. It is similar to Hemo C, but with a few differences I dont know or care about. But it causes an atypical shortage of blood cells... In a simple word, anemia... I also have thallasemic anemia, which further complicates things. My blood cell count is approx 60% of an average person my size. This too contributes to a slowed metabolism.
The final reason I am how I am is just because I choose to be built this way. I was born 2 weeks premature, and I was announced at 11lbs 14 oz. The doctor said I was gonna be huge. However, as I was growing up, I was smaller than anyone you'd ever see for my age. In primary school, I was unable to perform physical activity. Even the smallest amount of activity would knock the wind out of me. In 8th grade, an assistant bus driver asked me if I was lost. I was small, weak, and barely able to hold my own weight... That is until I finally got my growth spurt and grew both up and out. In 3 years, I gained about a foot in height, and 200lbs in weight. After that, I was large, as well as strong. And it's always been my idea that I'd rather be large and strong than small and weak.
In short, I'm healthier as a big guy than I am as a small guy. So forgive me if I take the 'if you are this tall, your optimal weight is this' rule as a very generic grain of salt.
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Well, it is - or should be by now - pretty well known that BMI is only a very rough estimation (for example, a lot of top rugby players would be classified as obese under BMI IIRC, simply due to muscle mass). But it's only really used (AFAIK - or rather, I'd expect) as a rough, population average indicator anyways; if someones being diagnosed for medical treatment for obesity or malnourishment, I'm pretty sure the doctor uses per-patient methods, not a rough BMI calculation, when giving actual treatment advice. In any case, i'm reasonably sure if you take a population in the thousands, and use BMI, it gives a relatively accurate method to estimate weight 'levels' across that population when compared to the other options.
(My BMI is approx 22.69; I have no idea if that's an accurate reflection or not of my actual physical condition, but it's more or less dead middle anyways)
I don't think there's any unfairness to say that it's bad to be obese when it's entirely down to your own volition, though. One of my best friends at uni had medical problems which caused - due to medication - weight gain. That's fair enough; but when someone does it simply through being sedentary (as I once did) and eating badly, then I don't think they have any excuse or justification for it and deserve criticism. Especially in the UK, where it costs the average person money (due to the NHS treatment costs incurred due to their unhealthiness).
In terms of size-weight-etc issues, I think there are general 'guidelines' on preferred fat levels for a very good reason; high fat levels are often indicative of a diet and lifestyle that leads to medical problems. Generally speaking, I think it's a safe statement that people within a recommended weight and fat percentage are more likely to be healthy than those who are either under or overweight.
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an0n is partly right, though. Clinical depression is a real illness, but there's a lot of people out there who don't have it but use it as an excuse. Medication won't help them, but a swift kick in the nuts might.
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I'm inclined to agree. Depression may have its placed but I'm fairly sure that there aren't that many depressed people out there.
It seems like one of those things you say because you don't have the balls to admit that you just like eating too much. People don't dare argue with something like depression and appear insensitive, which psychologically reenforces the lie to the fat person. They get affection and encouragement to help their "depression" which makes them feel good, and nobody confronts them about their weight and health issues. So they keep eating... keep telling the same old lie and no doubt start crying the minute anyone says "grow some strength of charachter and stop eating too much, you look disgusting".
It's rather like girls who say they've been raped when infact they simply got drunk and felt like a quickie that they regretted the next day. Society doesn't dare disagree with them and say "don't get drunk and have cheap sex then, you daft tart" because there's a small chance they might just have been raped.
Perhaps it's time society was taught a bit of responsibility... you eat too much and you will get fat, and no you are not beautiful because of it and there is not "more to love". Similarly if you don't want to have nasty drunken sex with a stranger then don't get so drunk and learn a bit of self control. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but using their valid reasons as your own excuses only makes you a worse person.
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It's rather like girls who say they've been raped when infact they simply got drunk and felt like a quickie that they regretted the next day. Society doesn't dare disagree with them and say "don't get drunk and have cheap sex then, you daft tart" because there's a small chance they might just have been raped.
Dunno about that - have you seen how low the conviction rate is?
Give that I had a friend hospitalized for clinical depression, I'm not ever going to underestimate or hedge my bets on the subject. Whilst someone may eat 'comfort food' to compensate for the stigma of being obese, at the same time there runs a risk that their ongoing lifestyle can drive to real clinical depression; that's not abdicating responsibility for their weight, but recognising that no physical change can be entirely divorced from the persons emotional and mental state.
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I believe that most people don't really have depression and are merely exploiting what's almost a 'fad' in current society. Same thing for most 'rapes' - a lot of the time, she wanted it, but just doesn't want to deal with it.
As an interesting aside, I recently earned a 2:1 in Unsupported Bullsh*t from the Armchair University of No F*cking Clue.
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I'd really like to know what the hell kind of disease does that... and why in all my 22 years I've never heard its name once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycystic_ovarian_syndrome#Signs_and_symptoms
to name two i know of
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I'm inclined to agree. Depression may have its placed but I'm fairly sure that there aren't that many depressed people out there.
you'd be suprised how many there are - but not all depressed people fixate on food - my fiancee did but now she's over that and I finally got her working out and shows lost every ounce she put on from her bout of eating disorder. now she's fighting her polycystic ovarian syndrome weight (her PCOS is being treating, but is rather pernicious)
It seems like one of those things you say because you don't have the balls to admit that you just like eating too much. People don't dare argue with something like depression and appear insensitive, which psychologically reenforces the lie to the fat person. They get affection and encouragement to help their "depression" which makes them feel good, and nobody confronts them about their weight and health issues.
wrong - food fixation in a depressed person is an eating disorder and anyone know whos anything about depression confronts them (ok, admittedly that's doctors and a few people outside that)
So they keep eating... keep telling the same old lie and no doubt start crying the minute anyone says "grow some strength of charachter and stop eating too much, you look disgusting".
that much is often true
It's rather like girls who say they've been raped when infact they simply got drunk and felt like a quickie that they regretted the next day.
those girls should be shot - because they made it harder for actual rape victims to get believed. ****ing whores.
Society doesn't dare disagree with them and say "don't get drunk and have cheap sex then, you daft tart" because there's a small chance they might just have been raped.
hahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahah that's hilarious - society sure as hell does. apparently it's either really different across the pond, or you're not paying attention. women have the hardest time proving that they were raped and often getting men to believe them.
Perhaps it's time society was taught a bit of responsibility... you eat too much and you will get fat, and no you are not beautiful because of it and there is not "more to love".
word
Similarly if you don't want to have nasty drunken sex with a stranger then don't get so drunk and learn a bit of self control.
word 2.0
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I'm inclined to agree. Depression may have its placed but I'm fairly sure that there aren't that many depressed people out there.
The trouble is just that, how to tell the difference? I wouldn't be too swift in judging between depressed and "depressed" people.
According to stats, clinical depression affects ~16% of population somehow at some point in their lifes. That's pretty much, I dare say. And local differences are big between different areas.
Still regardless, many cases of obesity are probably not causally related to actual health issues (other than being a health issue itself and causing other ones...). Finnish people have high depression rates but obesity is not (yet) as common in here as it is in, say, US of A. So the relation is not always clear. Depression is but one of the psychological conditions that can cause obesity as a symptom. There are other physical reasons, too. And it is true that some haven't got this kind of reason at all. :blah:
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Kazan, normally you annoy the hell out of me, but that's some interesting info I did not know about. I had no idea Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome could cause weight problems. I guess it makes sense in retrospect. Anything screwing with the ovaries is going to be messing up all kinds of hormone levels (which in turn messes with metabolism and any number of other things).
Almost all of the women in my wife's family have had chronic problems with ovarian cysts, and 3 out of the 4 women in that family are overweight. One of those is excused because she's on medication (which she needs, she seriously thought she was hearing voices) (NOT my wife!). The others have been tested for hypothyroidism and came up negative. They feel horrible about their weight problems and have been doing everything they can short of signing up with the Marines to get it under control. Seems like all they are able to do is keep their weight from getting any higher. The doctors have been singularly unhelpful. "Eat less and exercise more." ****! They don't eat any more or differently than me! I work a desk job and only occasionally get an evening walk in, so all of them are more physically active than I am. For all that, I'm still the second skinniest person I know (that isn't a chain smoker) and all three of them are unable lose weight. Now, there's GOT to be some medical reason for that. Or is my metabolism just that freakishly fast even at 29 years old?
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PCOS is caused by a chain reaction due to insulin insensativity - the insulin insensativity causes the weight gain and supresses proper folicular release from the ovaries, that in turn increases androgen levels so on and so forth - it's one massive feedback loop
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oh and since she was put onto PCOS treatment she's lost nearly 70lbs - her PCOS got bad after we started dating and she put on a bunch.(she wasn't a skinny thing to begin with, but her personality "makes up" for that)
later this month she's going in to the gyno and going to try and talk her into giving her a copper IUD (they rarely will give unmarried women IUDs because IUD+more than one partner over time increases the risk of some disease) - but being that she will be married in 2 months and i'm going along.. her birth control is supressing libido and I suspect that is because it's reinforcing the hyperandrogeny
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I have definitely observed some strongly negative effects of birth control pills or injections on some women, particularly my wife. She's prone to migrains in the first place, and the most common types of birth control pills caused her to have... well, I think maybe two days out of any given week she would NOT have a migrain while she was on those pills (the progestin-estrogen combo). That problem thankfully went away once she switched over to progestin-only medication. She tried pills and injections for progestin only. Unfortunately, there are quite a few side effects there as well. As you mention, Kazan, significantly reduced libido, a kind of dull listless depression (not the "end it all now!" type but the "what's the point in bothering?" type), and yeah, she gained most of the weight she has now while she was on progestin-only.
I hope she never has to go on birth control again. She seems much happier and healthier without it, though obviously (cough reduced libido cough) I am biased. With any luck, it won't be necessary. We're finally in a place in our lives where we can have kids.
It's strange, though. I have seen the same type of birth control have no effect (or if anything, the opposite effect) on other women at least as far as depression and/or weight gain go. (shrug) Sounds rather uncomfortable, but I think the IUD is probably the way to go since it does not rely on hormone regulation.
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The trouble is just that, how to tell the difference? I wouldn't be too swift in judging between depressed and "depressed" people.
As clinical depression is the result of a chemical imbalance, it ought to be possible to test for it, correct? It didn't get in DSM-IV by being unquantifible. Granted this is not of use to you and me, but hopefully the people who put together the statistics were smart enough to go on actual testing.
For you and me, we are reduced to judging on behavior...which is how initial diagonsis is almost always made, so there is obviously something to it. In fact a mere claim of depression is often a good clue that someone is lying. Those suffering from clinical depression rarely realize it on their own. It's one of those things where the shape of it is much more easily percieved from the outside, like most mental disorders. Unless you believe you have depression because a pyschatrist said so, it's likely a delusion.
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I'm inclined to agree. Depression may have its placed but I'm fairly sure that there aren't that many depressed people out there.
A great number of people are suffering from really bad depress...some of them won't admit it, some of them do and are taking drugs for it...if you've not suffered from it...you really don't know how bad it is and what it can do to you. That said...it doesn't necessarily link with obesity.
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Want people to stop being fat and/or depressed? Simple, stop giving them junk food and stop telling them that they have to be perfect , also give some ****ing education to people, why depression is more common today? Because most people treat you like a piece of trash and laugh at you, its easier to do that than to treat people with respect.
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I think that every year, we should take one fat person and force feed them and see how big they get before they explode.
I've tryed that . . .
On myself. :nod:
Couldn't make myself explode though :mad:
How to combat obesity? Easy!
1. Get rid of the supersize option, or enforce far more stringent guidelines on what kind of foodstuffs should be put into fast-food.
2. Stop saying "you look lovely" when you know they look like an elephant.
3. Don't buy your kid that new Nintendo for Christmas. Get them a bike or some roller skates and send them out into the big bad world to get some good old healthy exercise.
4. Chocolate is not a fruit.
There. Sorted. And if you're still incapable of saying "no" to that fourth hamburger for breakfast then you should have any health benefits you have revoked as you clearly don't care about your own health, so why should anyone else.
Aww! but thats how I live my life, except 5 hambergers for breakfast. :D
edit was feeling to lazy to fix it but i did
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sorry for the double post
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1323/editmoronfn5.png)
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But how can you up your post count that way?
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Bah, the real reason is global warming, it gets too hot for fat people to go burn off the gut.
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Depression is not an illness.
Obesity is not an illness.
Depression is 'being sad'. That's not a disease - that's being a pussy. I am by far the single most depressed person any of you will ever meet, talk to or know in any capacity, but you don't see me whining about the nihilistic nature of the universe (much) - because I'm not a pussy. People who claim to be 'suffering from depression' are just sad and too lazy/whiny/defeatist to just ****ing ignore it and get on with life. They're looking for an excuse to be the center of attention, to be special, to have everyone tell them they're nice and fluffy and a beautiful, beautiful butterfly.
Pussies.
Life is pain. Deal with it.
Now, on to obesity.
As a fat man, I consider obesity to be solely the result of being lazy as a mother****er. You can whine all you want about genetic disorder and inherited predispositions to fat accumulation, but all that's saying is "some people have to work harder to lose weight" - big ****ing shock. So you work harder and get thin. It's not that difficult to understand.
Yes, your genetic make-up may result in a slightly lower metabolic rate than your peers, but if you ****ing exercise you'll still get thinner - it'll just take longer. Therefore genetics becomes an excuse for people to remain fat, because - being fat - they've already proven they're lazy ****s and 'I come from a fat family' is just their pudgy little mantra so they can feel better about being an exercise-deficient sack of ****.
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:rolleyes:
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Tell me I'm wrong.
If someone cries about their girlfriend leaving them, they get their friends telling them to grow the **** up and get laid.
Someone cries because they don't like their life, suddenly it's depression and the kiddy gloves come out.
**** 'em. They need a slap.
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:rolleyes:
It's just amusing to see you using the same tactics over and over again to get attention.
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If I wanted attention, I'd've Goatse'd the place by now.
I'm just a big ol' bundle of festering rage.
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If I wanted attention, I'd've Goatse'd the place by now.
No, if you wanted banned you would have. But who's going to give you attention if you're banned?
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Depression is not an illness.
:rolleyes:
There is a difference between being depressed (as in every day use, describing the feeling on monday mornings) and clinical depression.
Much like there's a difference in being retarded and just behaving like one.
You have been told to be wrong in this matter; clinical depression is an illness because it messes your brain.
If you get ill and, say, you get a diarrhoea, how would you like if people came to you and just told you to shut the **** up and eat your food? Because it's the same frakking thing; a part of your body ceases to function normally.
Clinical depression is a disturbance in brains just like diarrhoea is disturbance of digestation organs. Regardless of what causes it, it's very very real once you have it.
If you don't get it after this second time these things are explained to you, you either are really as daft as you seem to be in this matter, or alternatively you've done a lot of practice. In either case, I'm done proving your opinion utterly false, because it doesn't seem to have any effect to your opinion. If you want to think like you do, you sure are entitled to have an opinion, but denying obvious is just plain stupid. :blah:
"Tell me I'm wrong."
It's difficult to tell something to someone who obviously doesn't want to hear it. You have already been told the reasons why clinical depression is to be considered as an illness; yet you still ask us to tell you you're wrong... Creationists do that all the time, they claim to have reasons why evolution can not work, and every time their "reasons" are shot down they just repeat them as if they were some incredible incantation making things like they want them to be. :rolleyes:
That said, I'm inclined to agree to aldo's analysis of you trying to get attention, and you know what, you've gotten it, but not for yourself but because I don't want to leave your claims unfalsified. If you're not trying to get attention, get us some actual arguments behind your claims of clinical depression not being an illness, not just some ridiculous anecdotes of someone losing their girlfriend and needing a slap. :wtf:
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So your entire argument for 'clinical depression' being an illness is that it affects your brain?
Eating too much sugar affects your brain. But you don't see the doctor forking out syringes full of insulin to every fat man with a donut, do ya?
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Sugar does not alter brain chemistry, such as changing hormonal levels.
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Fine.
Eating cheap burgers affects your brain. All them cow-hormones gotta be doing something to you. But you don't see the butcher handing out informational pamphlets on what to do if you start lactating and eating grass.
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Fine.
Eating cheap burgers affects your brain. All them cow-hormones gotta be doing something to you. But you don't see the butcher handing out informational pamphlets on what to do if you start lactating and eating grass.
If burgers did make people lactate and eat grass, you bloody well would see informational pamphlets and psychiatry programmes addressed to deal with it.
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Yes, I kinda forgot what my point was and went for cheap laughs.
Oh, right, depression isn't an illness. I remember now.
Just because something affects the hormonal balance in your brain doesn't mean it's an illness. There are all kinds of **** that affect your hormonal level. ****, by that rational you can call PMSing an illness....
Okay, bad example. But you get the idea.
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Re: Obesuty, I've said this since i was about 13 and fat kids moaned during PE,
There are a thousand an one excuse for putting on weight, But there are NO EXUSES at all for not getting off your fat arse and doing something about it..........
Exercise makes you fitter and thinner, its that simple.....
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Yes, I kinda forgot what my point was and went for cheap laughs.
Oh, right, depression isn't an illness. I remember now.
Just because something affects the hormonal balance in your brain doesn't mean it's an illness. There are all kinds of **** that affect your hormonal level. ****, by that rational you can call PMSing an illness....
Okay, bad example. But you get the idea.
It's an illness because it negatively affects the persons' brain chemistry over a prolonged period of time leading to mental and quite possibly physical injury (symptoms). To use your rationale, there are no mental illnesses.
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There aren't.
There are just people being pussies with weak minds.
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:sigh:
Clinical depression affects your brain in a way that makes them function abnormally. My earlier analogue to a brain tumor was not very much off. If some of my body parts is not working normally I would automatically consider it not normal, thus being an illness. How are brains different in this regard? If they're not functioning as they should, they are ill, it's not that difficult to understand.
Eating too much sugar affects brain in a way that healthy body can handle without hindering brain functions. Hyperactivity caused by sugar is not abnormal, and it is a self-induced situation where the brain have a lot of energi at their disposal but they start to get tired and need sleep, thus creating normally harmless situation called "sugar intoxication". The brain have the power, but they start to need rest, and especially children jsut don't understand always how tired they are, especially if the body is not tired. That can cause erratic behaviour, but that passes; itäs not an illness from same reasons being drunk is not an illness as such.
Diabetes is whole another case, in that the too high/low blood sugar can of course cause the brains to function abnormally or indeed to stop them altogether. But that's not the point here, is it? Your straw mans are getting more and more ridiculous. Try something better next time.
WTF, is this some kind of a chat room? seven new replies while I was writing this? Dear Spaghetti Monster give strength... :shaking:
Anyway, you can also say that there are no bone fractures, there are just people who have too weak bones for their actions. People should be strongly enough built to tolerate being hit by cars. Also, there is no flu; jsut a bunch of people susceptible to a viral infection in respiratory organs.
Of course, that is the definition to flu. :nervous:
Just like mental illnesses are defined to be severe enough disruptions from normal levels in cerebral activity. If you want to make new definitions, fine. But if you do, remember to mention it and define the terms you prefer to use.
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I find it quite amusing you're actually trying to make an informed argument against him. With an0n for pity's sake!
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We're detracting from the point in question here, Obesity = fat people who dont get rid of the fat, Obesity is a title given to people over a certain bodyweight fat percentage, Now fat can be put on for countless reasons, such as idleness over-eating or hyper-thyroidism to name a few, But exercise and diet WILL cure them its a proven fact..
I've no sympathy for bone-idle wastes of humanity who allow themselvves to degenerate because they wont go past the first step...... :mad:
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We're detracting from the point in question here, Obesity = fat people who dont get rid of the fat, Obesity is a title given to people over a certain bodyweight fat percentage, Now fat can be put on for countless reasons, such as idleness over-eating or hyper-thyroidism to name a few, But exercise and diet WILL cure them its a proven fact..
I've no sympathy for bone-idle wastes of humanity who allow themselvves to degenerate because they wont go past the first step...... :mad:
That's fair enough, but there are some people with medical conditions that, unfortunately, result in significant weight gain either due to the condition or due to medication and which also prevent that person from losing the weight. It's worth remembering, doubly, that these people also have to live lives, so it may be extremely difficult to get enough excercise when a normal person can lose weight with far less activity.
None of this is an excuse, of course, for the people are fat bastards just because they're lazy; I've done the whole overweight thing, and there's no excuse for it when it's just down to bad diet and too little excercise.
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Everyone has the time to do half an hour three times a weel there is no such thing as too little, And theres no such thing as bad exercise. I understand what you're saying ( iwouldnt patronise by adding "trying to say") But as i said before, people who make no effort reap their own rewards..
*if you cant be bothered to run for the bus/train, dont moan if you miss it*
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Everyone has the time to do half an hour three times a weel there is no such thing as too little, And theres no such thing as bad exercise. I understand what you're saying ( iwouldnt patronise by adding "trying to say") But as i said before, people who make no effort reap their own rewards..
*if you cant be bothered to run for the bus/train, dont moan if you miss it*
The point is that for some people, with medical conditions, half an hour 3 times a week isn't enough. Hell, it's generally not enough for me, and I have a relatively healthy diet.
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OK, in any case, if people aren't prepared to do the minumum required then they shouldnt moan, Simple things like walking, It is avicous circle of self destruction, The longer people leave it the harder its gonna be.
And the more unfit someone is the easier it is to warm up as well, As the bodies under more exertion. So a ten minute forced wwalk is better than nothing.
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This post abused the HLPBB code of conduct and was cleaned. On top of that this post also contained excessive use of irony, not suitable for those with a weak heart.
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Argh! I missed it!
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OK, in any case, if people aren't prepared to do the minumum required then they shouldnt moan, Simple things like walking, It is avicous circle of self destruction, The longer people leave it the harder its gonna be.
And the more unfit someone is the easier it is to warm up as well, As the bodies under more exertion. So a ten minute forced wwalk is better than nothing.
My whole point is that some people because of medical conditions (such as Crohns disease, or specifically steroid treatment) can't physically do the required amount to lose weight and still live; that the physical excercise required by you, I, or a fat person with no underlying medical cause to lose weight isn't nearly sufficient for that person.
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There aren't.
There are just people being pussies with weak minds.
Your obviously arguing devils advocate...
We all know you know better than that...
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It's not just eating to much, its lack of exercise.
Sometimes a life style just doesn't give one enough exercise.
Me for example, I generally eat less than the average bear, take stairs at every oppurtunity, walk instead of catch a bus to places, take the dog for walks, and live on a mostly vegetarian diet. Yet I still manage to keep a bit of chubbyness about me. I think its some screwed up metabalism thing.
Hell I used to do martial arts for a while and while I did slim, was always difficult losing the general chubbyness about about me.
I'm no fat albert, I believe I'm within my body index due to my height and broadish shoulders, but for the life of me can't lose me pot belly! :p
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We're detracting from the point in question here, Obesity = fat people who dont get rid of the fat, Obesity is a title given to people over a certain bodyweight fat percentage, Now fat can be put on for countless reasons, such as idleness over-eating or hyper-thyroidism to name a few, But exercise and diet WILL cure them its a proven fact..
I've no sympathy for bone-idle wastes of humanity who allow themselvves to degenerate because they wont go past the first step...... :mad:
not true. my sister diets and exercises and she barely loses any weight
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Define "diets and exercises"? Unless her regime was worked out by a professional she's likely to just be burning energy.
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There aren't.
There are just people being pussies with weak minds.
Your obviously arguing devils advocate...
We all know you know better than that...
Funnily enough, I wasn't. I was just generalizing.
I accept that there are genuine neurological disorders that impair function. But anything caused as a result of emotional and/or psychological 'not rightness', I don't consider to be a proper illness.
If it's caused by something you did or can be fixed by something you can change, it's not an illness - it's being a pussy.
If it's something that absolutely cannot be fixed by anything other than surgery or heavy medication, I'll accept it's an illness in the classical sense. But not necessarily an illness generally. For example, I don't view mental retardation as an illness.
If it's down to your genetics and does nothing but impair function without altering perceptions, I consider it simple inferiority.
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There aren't.
There are just people being pussies with weak minds.
Your obviously arguing devils advocate...
We all know you know better than that...
Funnily enough, I wasn't. I was just generalizing.
I accept that there are genuine neurological disorders that impair function. But anything caused as a result of emotional and/or psychological 'not rightness', I don't consider to be a proper illness.
If it's caused by something you did or can be fixed by something you can change, it's not an illness - it's being a pussy.
If it's something that absolutely cannot be fixed by anything other than surgery or heavy medication, I'll accept it's an illness in the classical sense. But not necessarily an illness generally. For example, I don't view mental retardation as an illness.
If it's down to your genetics and does nothing but impair function without altering perceptions, I consider it simple inferiority.
Thats just the thing...clinical depression is not about anything that you do at all. Its chemical...it affects what you do but its not like you sit down and say "ok, I'm now depressed". I know two people who are actually full blown clincally depressed (that I know about - there are more that are taking drugs to keep it down and you never know or find out years later) and there's not a thing they can do about it.
I know that I have it in the family...I don't suffer from it but I do occasionally have my bouts with very mild depression. Some people just call it depression and lump the whole thing together. I think what you're actually railing on about is the normal kind of depressed thats generally caused by external pressures that I think most people experience. I see a distinction between that sort of thing (I'd be mighty surprised if you weren't depressed at some point - if you haven't ever been...then just keep doing what your doing) and the folks who are chemically imbalanced.
Its a bit like alchohol abuse...there are people who go out and get drunk all the time (which is basically everyone who is 18-30) and then there are the alcholics who are compelled to drink. So I would suggest not calling everyone a pussy because there are people who have a legitimate, real, and dangerous problem with clinical depression. They get to see specialists and take drugs all their life and its definately not fair to attack them in the slightest.
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Ok, if you can do something about it mentally, like... mental counselling, logic, etc, but you don't, you're a pussy,
But if something is literally screwed in your brain, then it's an illness?
Makes sense to me. Just need to define it right. On the other hand, sometimes I say I'm depressed when I'm not really. I'm jut cynical ;)
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Saying clinical depression is a chemical imbalance is like saying anger is a chemical imbalance. What makes it clinical is if it impairs someone's functionality/ability to live a normal life. They need therapy because they can't snap out of the cycle of depression without external assistance.
Whether or not that makes them a 'pussy' is one's own opinion, but it doesn't rule out therapy as a viable treatment.
The severity of the depression dictates whether a patient needs drugs or not as a supplement, but it still isn't an illness in the pathological sense.
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Ok, if you can do something about it mentally, like... mental counselling, logic, etc, but you don't, you're a pussy,
But if something is literally screwed in your brain, then it's an illness?
Makes sense to me. Just need to define it right. On the other hand, sometimes I say I'm depressed when I'm not really. I'm jut cynical ;)
Something like that. I have my moments where I'm feeling a bit down...chemically there is something different than when I'm normal or really happy (your brain is just all chemicals anyways) but I'll pull out of it. Maybe a few hours later or I'll sleep on it and its not a big deal in the morning. No problem...feel fine and normal for days, weeks, and months on end.
Clincal folks...they can't pull out. They do for a day and then drop back in for days or weeks. Its bad news...
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I think the real decider is motivation and confidence. People who are simply 'going through a bad patch' won't lose much in the way of either, but those who have clinical depression tend to lose all their motivation, and become recluses, not feeling confident enough to communicate with other people, and too mentally drained to socialise. It's actually a very dehabilatating disease at its worse because the sufferer knows what is wrong, but cannot call on the confidence or energy to do anything about it, which makes them feel even worse.
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Ok, if you can do something about it mentally, like... mental counselling, logic, etc, but you don't, you're a pussy,
But if something is literally screwed in your brain, then it's an illness?
Makes sense to me. Just need to define it right. On the other hand, sometimes I say I'm depressed when I'm not really. I'm jut cynical ;)
Something like that. I have my moments where I'm feeling a bit down...chemically there is something different than when I'm normal or really happy (your brain is just all chemicals anyways) but I'll pull out of it. Maybe a few hours later or I'll sleep on it and its not a big deal in the morning. No problem...feel fine and normal for days, weeks, and months on end.
Clincal folks...they can't pull out. They do for a day and then drop back in for days or weeks. Its bad news...
Isn't that deemed "Manic depression"?
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Manic depression refers to the tendecy to alternate between depression and mania or euphoria. I believe it's the same thing as bipolar disorder.
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Bipolar disorder is an umbrella term that is used more inappropriately than that of ADD. Saying a person has bipolar disorder is like saying someone had breakfast foods for their first meal of the day. Yeah it's true, but it's so vague that it in itself doesnt have any meaning. Bipolar disorder covers so many mental illnesses that ir's almost synonymous with it. Everything from as little as a cycle of low and high energy levels, to as much as a cycle of being normal and paranoid schizophrenia. It's so broad that it's validity as a diagnosis is now irrelevant.