Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Wing Commander Saga => Topic started by: Mancubus on September 20, 2006, 12:13:07 pm
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Well there was some disagreement about some cat's fighters gun in wc3, and data provided in the net and in manuals is somehow erratic.
Now i have recently (few days ago) replayed Wc3, as i made KS version to run, and i've made some observations, and came out with this little list, that just might prove usefull,
STRAKHA has two meson and two lasers, im absolutly sure now
SORTHAK has SIX ion guns in the front (they may be reapers, but i'm pretty sure they are ions) and the same amount of mesons in the rear
the others are not controvertsial (i think) but i can post the whole list if you wish
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:edit: thanks for correction
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STRAKHA has two meson and two lasers, im absolutly sure now
Good to know this. I would have really angered me when I had to make that fighter with only 2 meson guns.
What's with your second post ? :nervous:
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i made a spelling mistake iin the thrad name and someone watching (ome mod probably) corrected it
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yes, I am watching over everything :)
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And hiding from pepople, like the big brother, i must add
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This isn't Burger King. You can't have it your way. :D
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Sure we can. Once we get ahold of the tables anyways. <,< >,>
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Well there was some disagreement about some cat's fighters gun in wc3, and data provided in the net and in manuals is somehow erratic.
Now i have recently (few days ago) replayed Wc3, as i made KS version to run, and i've made some observations, and came out with this little list, that just might prove usefull,
STRAKHA has two meson and two lasers, im absolutly sure now
SORTHAK has SIX ion guns in the front (they may be reapers, but i'm pretty sure they are ions) and the same amount of mesons in the rear
the others are not controvertsial (i think) but i can post the whole list if you wish
Definately Reapers in the front. The sound is the same as the Reaper and not like the Ion. My guess is that they just use one entry for each weapon type Confed or otherwise.
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I agree, besides there fire rate is WAY too fast for ion guns: They must be reapers.
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Definately Reapers in the front. The sound is the same as the Reaper and not like the Ion. My guess is that they just use one entry for each weapon type Confed or otherwise.
Hmmm thats odd. I thought the reaper was only found on the Excalibur and therefore a newly developed confederation weapon.
On a second note though I never really understood why origin chose the guns they did for the confed fighters; neutron guns, photon cannons and the ion gun? They were the most obsolete of the guns available. The kilrathi had the right idea using meson guns - very high damage: energy ratio although they did use ions as well. As for the ion gun why not just use partcile cannons? They do much more damage and use a lot less energy than the ion whilst the range and refire delay are almost equal.
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I'd definately create a seperate set for Kilrathi weapons, having properties similar to the ones seen in the original in-game loadouts. (the manuals are inconsistent often with what's actually in-game)
So while the original might be a reaper cannon, the Kilrathi version has similar properties but a different effect and name that would fit with their technologies.
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Definately Reapers in the front. The sound is the same as the Reaper and not like the Ion. My guess is that they just use one entry for each weapon type Confed or otherwise.
Hmmm thats odd. I thought the reaper was only found on the Excalibur and therefore a newly developed confederation weapon.
On a second note though I never really understood why origin chose the guns they did for the confed fighters; neutron guns, photon cannons and the ion gun? They were the most obsolete of the guns available. The kilrathi had the right idea using meson guns - very high damage: energy ratio although they did use ions as well. As for the ion gun why not just use partcile cannons? They do much more damage and use a lot less energy than the ion whilst the range and refire delay are almost equal.
One might also ask the same question about the US military, we still use the 5.56 mm round but its been proven that the 6.7 spc is many times more effective. Its simple there are enough 5.56 rounds in stock that changing would be too expensive. Maybe they had crates and crates of cannons coming out of their ears so they spent all their resources building ships and used weapons they had hanging about.
After all when playing WC3 most of the kills i racked up in that game I was flying an Arrow, one of weakest gun arrays in the game; but they were in a tight group so it was easy to punch holes in shields on the first pass, then you hit auto slide spin around and launch a FF missile to seal the deal. Its not a question of guns its tactics.
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Definately Reapers in the front. The sound is the same as the Reaper and not like the Ion. My guess is that they just use one entry for each weapon type Confed or otherwise.
Hmmm thats odd. I thought the reaper was only found on the Excalibur and therefore a newly developed confederation weapon.
On a second note though I never really understood why origin chose the guns they did for the confed fighters; neutron guns, photon cannons and the ion gun? They were the most obsolete of the guns available. The kilrathi had the right idea using meson guns - very high damage: energy ratio although they did use ions as well. As for the ion gun why not just use partcile cannons? They do much more damage and use a lot less energy than the ion whilst the range and refire delay are almost equal.
This is where clinging to the games fictional canon and the actual in game content becomes problematic. Its quite simple...the guys at Origin, when they put the ship together, probably felt that the forward guns were too weak being Ion cannons (for the intended effect) and felt that the Reaper cannon was the best solution. Its just programming. And since few even noticed this their mission was accomplished by achieving intended effect while maintaining other appearances.
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Definately Reapers in the front. The sound is the same as the Reaper and not like the Ion. My guess is that they just use one entry for each weapon type Confed or otherwise.
Hmmm thats odd. I thought the reaper was only found on the Excalibur and therefore a newly developed confederation weapon.
On a second note though I never really understood why origin chose the guns they did for the confed fighters; neutron guns, photon cannons and the ion gun? They were the most obsolete of the guns available. The kilrathi had the right idea using meson guns - very high damage: energy ratio although they did use ions as well. As for the ion gun why not just use partcile cannons? They do much more damage and use a lot less energy than the ion whilst the range and refire delay are almost equal.
This is where clinging to the games fictional canon and the actual in game content becomes problematic. Its quite simple...the guys at Origin, when they put the ship together, probably felt that the forward guns were too weak being Ion cannons (for the intended effect) and felt that the Reaper cannon was the best solution. Its just programming. And since few even noticed this their mission was accomplished by achieving intended effect while maintaining other appearances.
We have a winner! Playablility + Ability of engine > canon
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After all when playing WC3 most of the kills i racked up in that game I was flying an Arrow, one of weakest gun arrays in the game; but they were in a tight group so it was easy to punch holes in shields on the first pass, then you hit auto slide spin around and launch a FF missile to seal the deal. Its not a question of guns its tactics.
Well that is true the arrow did rock and it was because of its awesome dog-fighting capabilities and the auto-slide which i confess that i have never actually used yet (cause my attempts at running WC3 on winXP are unsuccessful). The thunderbolt was great as well especially against corvettes - that was always the downside with the arrow). But anything except a hellcat - I really hate flying those and they truly suck in my opinion but on the whole even they are still more than a match for their kilrathi counterparts.
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I like Hellcats. Probably one of the few people who does :D
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I also like the hellcat very much. It looks very good and is well balanced (could have a few more missiles though) :)
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I would prefere the Arrow or Thunderbold over the Hellcat. Normaly I prefer the well balanced designs but in this case I prefere the speed and agility of the Arrow or the raw power of the Thunderbold.
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I'd take a rapier 2 over a hellcat, but they no longer exist in wc3 :sigh:
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You might find some at the Landreich or with some other backwater system that still got them. Also I think their would still be some carrier with Rapiers but I doubt their will be much of them. Most of them where lost during the Battle of Terra, to my knowledge and later replaced by the cheaper Hellcats....as most of the WC ships around WC3 are originaly older designs then WC2 ships.
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Ya, the same thing would explain the disappearance of the Sabers. Although the longbows do have afterburners while the "newer" broadswords and defintely newer crossbows don't... chalk that up to canon inconsistency and real life (TM). I can see the epee's getting replaced, they were great at killing pilots. Actually I think the biggest reasons isn't battle for terra, it's the adoption of a 3d engine, you couldn't get ships to resemble ships from earlier games. Hence the battle for terra and the complete change. Probably the same with flak to point defense.
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I'd take a rapier 2 over a hellcat, but they no longer exist in wc3 :sigh:
Whoa I wouldn't go quite that far :) You must absolutely hate Hellcats. Admitablly the Rapier from WC2 is faster and has the same number of missiles but even though its gun volley damage is only slightly less the hellcats shields and armor are quite strong. So your Hellcat can take quite a beating in combat so I guess it allows for sloppy flying to make for up for its otherwise poor performances. Too bad they couldnt give us the Morningstar instead. Although it probably would kind of clash with the thunderbolt which for what it was I liked immensly except when u have to fight darkets and stealth fighters (which was nearly every mission anyway).
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Well by that time period Rapier 3 would have probably been coming into service if the war conditions weren't as bad. While the hellcat does have armor and shielding its speed and maneuverability is sluggish. I want either fast and nimble or heavy and devastating. Hellcats are more of a jack of all trades while the rapier was more like a rapier sword, jousting with the enemy.
Course I shouldn't say much, I've got fighter models that are really medium class like the hellcat... course I've got the new rapier too :P
Ya I loved the morningstars too, although they seemed to die too easily, wish I could play wc2 now, maybe i'd have better luck with them.
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I think I am one of the very few people who actualy "liked" to fly the Epee. It requires a hit and run tactic and you can't never go front up against someone but at running and hitting they where great. Also sniping. No other ship of this time had its guns so close that you eather hit or not. If you hit then its quite a punch.
As for the Longbow, Braodsword and Crossbow thing. The Crossbow had an afterburner IIRC. The Broadsword was just to big to have one. I also tend to call the Broadsword the smallest station ever build ^_^
The Crossbow was a newly developed bomber that was quite expancive so it never went into mass production when you could have Broadswords. The Longbow original seamed to be a trooptransport/S&R ship...at least you could see it in that duty in the WC Academy TV series.
As for the Hellcat...I also see it as a the allround fighter for every situation that dosn't excell in any duty but can fullfill most of them. With the bad situation after the battle of earth and the overall bad going war its no wonder that they searched for a not so specialized fighter that can be thrown in every situation instead of a specialised fighter like the Morningstar.
A good fighter but also a to specialliced ship IMO.
But all of this is just the fiction as we/I would like to see it. It has its logic holes and we will most likely never know for what reason it was decided to use what ship with the stats they had in the end. So I am happy with what I got ^_^
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. The Crossbow had an afterburner IIRC.
No, it didn'i
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. The Crossbow had an afterburner IIRC.
No, it didn'i
Yes, I remember flying the Crossbow in the earlier installment of the mod. No afterburner, it was a nightmare :)
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I have a couple questions to ask while we are on the subject of Kilrathi weapons.
Are we expecting to see real dangerous kilrathi ships and pilots that can provide a real challeng to kill for instance...
1) Will there be Sorthak's in Saga?
Sothaks are nasty to fight but are a great challenge especially in the arrow. They have seriously powerful guns and one on one they can even rip a thunderbolt to shreds as I nearly found out the other day when those 3 rear meson gun turrests ripped through my shields and armor in seconds.
2) Will there be Kilrathi aces?
Kilrathi aces were always fun to fight especially the ace Bloodmist who I found is quite a challenge to fight one on one on the higher difficulties. Bloodmist definately isnt the greatest pilot but he launches loads of missiles at u which even the Hellcat didnt have the capabilities to evade as I found out and his rear turret is deadly although Im not sure what gun it is. The trick I found to defeat that ace Bloodmist was to convert the damage repair power to shields and guns which makes your hellcat alot more durable in combat. Im not sure what the rear turret of the Paktahn bomber is but it sure as hell is nasty. I found it is then mainly a matter of patience and just waiting until your shields are high enough to move in from behind and blast through the shields and weaken his hull gradually until that cat is nailed.
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Are we expecting to see real dangerous kilrathi ships and pilots that can provide a real challeng to kill for instance...
You can bet :)
1) Will there be Sorthak's in Saga?
Not in the upcoming prologue, but the main game will cover everything from WC3 (gamestyle and ship wise)
2) Will there be Kilrathi aces?
See answer to issue 2 (which is acutally No. 3 :) ), but I wont tell/spoil any more on that matter :)
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You might find some at the Landreich or with some other backwater system that still got them. Also I think their would still be some carrier with Rapiers but I doubt their will be much of them. Most of them where lost during the Battle of Terra, to my knowledge and later replaced by the cheaper Hellcats....as most of the WC ships around WC3 are originaly older designs then WC2 ships.
Quoi? Sorry...how are WC3 ships older than the WC2 ships? As I understood it...WC3 designs were pumped out by the industries involved with rebuilding the fleet as quickly as possible after the Battle of Terra. Seeing as both sides lost so many ships in the battle they both went back to the drawing boards and started pumping out new ships. Helps explain the reasons for the changes in design that occurred over a very short period of time.
I don't buy some of the fiction thats in some of the books. It makes no sense to me :)
Especially since second line aircraft, in the modern day context, usually get used by reserve units and in a wartime situation you're industry cranks out so many planes/ships per month anyways that old types either get used by training units, reserve units, or so forth. Do you mean that the designs were perhaps in place prior to the Battle of Terra?
Sorry...very confused! :)
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Some designs you find in WC3 are older ships or typs of ships that have been put back into active service...like most of the Ranger-class carriers that where even build before WC1. Others are refits of older designs. The Arrow, Hellcat and Longbow are all in service while Blair is still a cadet at the Academy. But these aren't the same versions as you fly.
The old Arrow seams to be more like a small one person shuttle/hopper. Same could be for the Hellcat as we see one also standing in front of the Academy. The Longbow during that time is a rescue ship.
All these frames have been later reworked to become fighters/bombers.
Still I agree that their are quite some points where continuity is more then strange ^_^
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I think I'm going to keep thinking about these on my own little universe :)
But thanks!
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Everyone as he likes it ^_^
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Are we expecting to see real dangerous kilrathi ships and pilots that can provide a real challeng to kill for instance...
You can bet :)
1) Will there be Sorthak's in Saga?
Not in the upcoming prologue, but the main game will cover everything from WC3 (gamestyle and ship wise)
2) Will there be Kilrathi aces?
See answer to issue 2 (which is acutally No. 3 :) ), but I wont tell/spoil any more on that matter :)
Thats great news. Sorthaks and the upgraded kiltrathi fighters were the only real fun challenges in WC3 besides the insanely overwhelming numbers 0f kilrathi fighters. From what I've seen so far in the prologue your also outnumbered by kilrathi fighters so we'll have both I guess. That should make for a real challenge. And great work with the prologue I was really blown away by the amount of detail u guys put into it.