Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Dan1 on October 02, 2006, 04:27:46 pm
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For the main FS2 campaign. If you were "Command" and making the decisions, what kind of decisions would you have made differently if any at all?
For me, it would have to be pulling the blockade and letting Bosch escape, I would not have let that happen. Also, during the 1st Sathanas missions, I would have had more than one squadron and the Collossus fighting the Juggernaut. I mean all civilization going to be destroyed and that's all they can spare? (Yes I do know that they said the Sathanas destroyed the fleet blockading the node in GD but still..)
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Well, they let Bosch escape because they wanted to know the capabilities of the ETAK. Hmmm, I'm not sure what I'd do differently, though.
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After the Ravana (before Great Hunt) had destroyed multiple warships and their escorts, I might've sent in more than one bomber wing to take care of the bugger.
I would have installed a remote subspace activator to GTVA Colossus to prevent its idiotic death by stubbornly refusing to leave while clearly being overpowered by the Sathanas... I mean, what the hell did they think getting destroyed was going to by any time to anyone? :nervous: Stubborn assault in front of superior numbers/fire power is never a good strategy, it will cost your troops and gain you nothing. To know when to withdraw is as important as to know when to attack.
Preferably, choose the time and location of the engagement. Fight on your ground. Prepare the defenses by doing something else than putting the fracking ships in the line in front of a node. Put some depth in the battle arrangement, make it difficult for enemy to concentrate fire. Surround the node instead of just putting ships in one side of it. One-sided "blockade" only blockades at maximum 30% of the node, what if some clever bastard decided that he was going into another direction? Yep, send in Alpha 1, he'll kill the rampaging cruiser or an odd destroyer... :nervous:
What more... well, in general, keep more fighting power in reserves. Tactically it is usually considered minimum to keep third of available forces in reserves.
I would have made every single captain to read Sun Tzu instead of whatever they were taught in GTVA Fleet Academy or whatever TSM's they run through.
8)
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Well, I definitely wouldn't be so stupidly optimistic as Command was after killing Ravana, and later after killing the original Sathanas. I would be thinking: "If they have massive clawed-beetle looking juggernauts and a nearly inexhaustible supply of fightercraft, what else do they have in there?" Not: "YIPPEE! We killed a Sathanas, we're invincible! Even though the only warship that could possibly destroy another one is in drydock for the next few months!"
:sigh:
GTVA Command, you give Terrans a bad name...
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First off, I would never have tried to stop the Sathanas in Gamma Draconis - I would have pulled all the ships to the Capella side of the node, bring in the Collie and make a defensive perimiter.
Ships would be ordered to jump out if the Sath gets a clear shot at them. and I would allways have a few heavy hitters standing by to jump behind the thing, hit it and bug out.
Mass production of Mljonirs is a must and blockading of all pertinent nodes. As soo nas the first sath was destroyed I would immediately bring every single ship that can be spared to Gamma Draconis and prepare to seal the GD-Capella node AND have another destroyer hidden in GD, ready to blow the node to the Nebula.
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Long term, I wouldn't have build the Collossus - biggest waste of resources...
I would have made the Ares and Boa as fast as a Perseus and made more powerful bombs :D
And also, everybody would have the callsign Alpha 1 ;)
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And also, everybody would have the callsign Alpha 1
That would be a organizational nightmare, but no force in the universe could stand up the the GTVA.
Run Shivans, Run!
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I think you guys are giving Command too hard a time. These guys are trying to balance the needs and demands of all of civilization while fighting for its very survival aganst odds they didn't know or expect.
First you have Bosch and ETAK. They had a plan, get what Bosch knew about ETAK. They had to keep him alive to do it. Mistake? No, it was a valid idea and remained so for quite some time. After all, the Shivans hadn't been seen for 32 years, who would Bosch use it on?
The Knossos blindsided them, I think. They didn't expect it, and when it showed they suddenly had three problems hit them at once:
1) Need Bosch's info on ETAK
2) Figure out how to use the Knossos to get back to Earth
3) Fight the Shivans.
Now, there is some arrogence in that last one. They fought and beat the Shivans the first time around, if by just the skin of their teeth, and now they had better weapons and the Colossus (which I disagree with being a mistake, it was a great tool for uniting the people of the GTVA and giving them a sense of security, how it was used wasn't great, but the ship itself was not a mistake). They could handle the Shivans.
Then there's Slaying Ravana, which only proved that the GTVA didn't know what it was getting in to. We see only the end of that battle, but I'm willing to bet the first phase was increadible. At the time, they may not have had the resources on hand to deal with it, and the bomber wing was their last chance of taking it out before it left the area. It's destruction was a moral boost and probably gave Command the idea that it needed to pour more resources into fighting the Shivans.
But then they could have shut down the Knossos, but they couldn't, and that's what started to hurt them. They had to leave it open for as long as possible, and when the Sathanas popped up, they did the only thing they could do: Run away. Pulled their whole fleet out of the nebula, destroyed the Knossos and set a defensive line in the first available area: Vega.
Now we get to Command starting to wise up as to what's going on. One super ship like this, and they're in trouble, another would be worse. Ships go back into he nebula looking for both Bosch and yet another Sathanas, which they probably figured was out there somewhere. The little black ops run through the second Knossos proved to be the right decision on the part of Command to order, and now they had to run.
Run very fast. There's not time to set up a defensive line closer than Vega, in fact I imagine the other side of both nodes were virtual fortresses. They were running an evacuation from a genocidal species, and there was no reasoning with them. Should the Colossus have stood it's ground? I don't know, one would think not, but we don't know why the commander of that ship chose to stay. Perhaps he knew more than he let on about the tactical situation, knowing that holding position (and the attention) would spare millions the wrath of that Sathanas. Maybe he was just a fool.
The point is, they did they're best against odds they didn't expect and that just got worse as time went on. Two things to consider here when thinking about it: A: Hinesight is always 20/20, and B: They're only human. Maybe that was the point.
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I would not have the fleet engage the Sath, first I would have A1 destroy it's beam cannons, then I would dogpile it with cruisers and fighters. Also, I would inform all piolts of the cheat codes, and we'd own everyone via ~-K.
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I too think that collapsing the Capella-Gamma Draconis node would have been a better option, and would have saved the Capella system, but I'm betting that the time-constraints of getting an Orion outfitted for the job and brought into position was the limiting factor. Too bad realy, but I guess it makes for a more desparate story.
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Why didn't they just trap the Sathanas in Subspace? It would have been easy, no one would have died, everyone would be happy.... :D
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...funny.
I would've done everything that they've done all over again. The mission "Wake up the Shivans" was a resounding success after all. Etamnanki was tested and completed. Knossos information was taken for further development on stabilizing broken nodes (note - you can't TEST it if the thing isn't active). Line was severed so the Shivans wouldn't come back. They even got the practical structural information on the Juggernaught's and the Comm nodes (<- I actually suspect that was a big one for them) as well as their rate of production.
All in all a resounding success. Had a few civilian casualties, but who gives a **** really. Knowledge is power. All ready for Stage 3.
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The only thing I would have done differently is concerning the NTF. Quite frankly, both times the Shivans attacked was when the terrans already were weakened from fighting.
Let the NTF through to GD, you'll have more destroyers to concentrate on the Shivans.
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I actually agree 100% with Eishtmo. Which is something unheard of.
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Let the NTF reach Gamma Drac and then lock them all in. Turn off or blow up the Knossos, blockade the Capella node with as many destroyers and Mjolnirs as you can scrape together. Maybe park the Colossus in the node's exit vector just to prove the point. "Excuse us, we need those destroyers back. Now."
Find some other way than further prolonging a civil war that is eating up your available combat power to get your hands on ETAK. Making a serious effort to capture the Iceni in The Romans Blunder sounds good. Bosch may be misguided but he doesn't seem crazy enough to blow himself up.
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What Eishtmo said...
Command could have had lot more things going on than we ever knew of. Possibly ****load of blackops stuff going on with the NTF. Therefore it is a bit unfair to judge their doings. Letting the NTF grow so big was an obvious ****up from GTVA, but that's irrelevant because without it nothing in FS2 would have happened. What Command did in a grand scale, I think I can understand.
But some smaller things it did, were just stupid. "Avoid the beam and you won't get hit". "Godspeed pilots, Allied Command Signing off", that's like saying "we don't care if you make it out or not.
One thing I disagree is the general battletactics command used. It was all arrogant fire beams and get some coffee while Alpha wraps up. What they need is battalions of badass marines, and a effective breaching pod/capture system. If they had spent the NTF war capturing back their ships, instead of blowing them, they would have had much more resources to deal with the shivans. But trought the whole campaing, I don't think we hear about a single serious capture attempt.
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One thing I disagree is the general battletactics command used. It was all arrogant fire beams and get some coffee while Alpha wraps up. What they need is battalions of badass marines, and a effective breaching pod/capture system. If they had spent the NTF war capturing back their ships, instead of blowing them, they would have had much more resources to deal with the shivans. But trought the whole campaing, I don't think we hear about a single serious capture attempt.
Even a simple corvette carries 8,000 men, if I remember right.
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Guys, think back to even FS1. There were NO capture attempts on anything larger than a small transport. There is a mission where you "capture" a Cain-class cruiser, but you're not really capturing it, you're just towing it back to base.
Now think of what it would be like for a few thousand marines to capture a ship. All kinds of automated defenses guarding the hallways, thousands of enemy defenders, the ship could self-destruct at any time, you can't be sure you'll be able to puncture the hull...
And it seems like capturing is reserved for important events, anyway. You have to go through the trouble of disarming and disabling it, which is a pain in the ass, when it would be easier to just lob a whole bunch of bombs at it. And even if you do capture it, the crew would probably sabotage the ship. If you look at the capture operations in FS1, they were never to get actual warships, they were just to capture certain people, etc.
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It's probably easier to chopper in troops to capture a modern day aircraft carrier than it is to fly in marines to a destroyer....
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"Automated defences", yeah sure. Ofcourse every hallway could be full of automated lazer-zapper-napalm-cannons that scan the retinals of every passerby. But not only is that a hazard for the crew, but a nightmare to maintanace. And costs ****load of money, and takes space that could be used for something useful and safer.
Hull thickness should not be a be a problem. Air locks are easy to pierce, though also easy to defend. All of the ships have windows. And even thick hull could propably be craked if given enought time and peace to work. That would require a special engineering craft I think.
I am talking about a civil war. So no sane crew would blow themselves up just to prevent a cruiser from being recaptured by the enemy. Neither are they likely to fight to the death for Bosh when facing a barrel of a pulse rifle. It's not the same thing as space battle where you kill enemy ships, in boarding action it's man to man.
So fighting off boarders, or being vaporized by anti-cap beam. I'd choose fighting the boarders. Even then it would be hardcore marines versus engineers, officers and other personnell whose training was likley focused on other than close combat. The crew propably suffered casualties during the phase the ship was disarmed and disabled. And the marines only need capture certain areas. Like the bridge. Then ask nicely trought the PA system, "surrender or be spaced". Wreacks havoc on morale, don't you think? And when the ship is unable to do anything, command structure broken and banged up crew, then there is little do be done.
In FS way casualties would be the ship and the entire crew. Boarding action would propably cost at least 50 % less in lives and the ship would be saved. Unless something would go horribly wrong during the boarding. Say, robed figure falling to the reactor.
In my opinion boarding actions are entirely possible in the FS universe. What would you do in a destroyer that has no functioning systems left and is little more than a burning wreck, surrounded by enemy fleet? Prison camp, or burning/chocking to death?
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You could say the same of capturing a submarine.
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Good points. I see that it makes sense now. As for automated defences, they wouldn't be THAT expensive considering how many zillions of dollars one of those fighters or bombers must cost. Think- right now we could probably make those kinds of automated defenses, so they shouldn't cost very much in the future.
And as for the marines vs. engineers thing, in the old sail days ships would carry a large contingent of marines speficically to defeat boarding attempts. Think of how many marines a cruiser must hold. Several hundred? Now how many people can an Elysium hold? Maybe 50 or so?
I noticed that a lot of FS ships, like the escape pods, are designed for personnel transfer but really can't carry many people. In one of the Silent Threat missions where you have to escort your ship's escape pods as the Krios is blown up by the GTI, you're told that "we have 43 people in escape pods" when there are like 10 escape pods out there- each one can fit 4-5 people? So how many people could a little transport hold, vs. how many people are there on a capital ship?
And even if you do capture the thing, like I said before it's probably going to be sabotaged. IMO there has to be some reason that in Freespace nobody ever captures a capital ship for the sake of using it later
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I didn't forget about security forces. But most of the crew would still be engineers and stuff. I and I did mention that that the capturing techniques need work. Mostly referring to the ships that transport the marines.
As for the sabotage. Consider that the ship must first be made reasonable safe to approach. And prevent it from slipping away during boarding. And include a messy boarding action. Don't you think the ship would spend some time in a drydock after that? Thus any sabotage would likely be noticed.
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I didn't forget about security forces. But most of the crew would still be engineers and stuff. I and I did mention that that the capturing techniques need work. Mostly referring to the ships that transport the marines.
As for the sabotage. Consider that the ship must first be made reasonable safe to approach. And prevent it from slipping away during boarding. And include a messy boarding action. Don't you think the ship would spend some time in a drydock after that? Thus any sabotage would likely be noticed.
how do you think it'd check to sweep a damaged half-kilometer long vessel, including behind every single accessible bulkhead, etc? I'd wager long enough to safely set a few timebombs.
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Are the crew die hard fanatics? Do they have access to explosives big enought to present danger to themselves and the ship?
Yes it is possible that they have access to explosives. But I imagine that critical areas where explosives can cause catastrofic damage would also be first areas for boarding marines to secure, for various reasons. If the explosive is sufficently large to destroy the ship regardless of placement, then I'd classify that as fanaticism. And the captured crew has no idea how long they will be aboard the vessel. So how to set the timer?
Look. I'm just saying that in my opinion boarding actions are completely possible. And I consider them humane thing to do. If the other option is to conduct genocide by shooting everything that comes in to view.
If we are to debate this further, then split the discussion in to it's own threat. But lets get this one back on topic.
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Are the crew die hard fanatics? Do they have access to explosives big enought to present danger to themselves and the ship?
Yes it is possible that they have access to explosives. But I imagine that critical areas where explosives can cause catastrofic damage would also be first areas for boarding marines to secure, for various reasons. If the explosive is sufficently large to destroy the ship regardless of placement, then I'd classify that as fanaticism. And the captured crew has no idea how long they will be aboard the vessel. So how to set the timer?
Look. I'm just saying that in my opinion boarding actions are completely possible. And I consider them humane thing to do. If the other option is to conduct genocide by shooting everything that comes in to view.
If we are to debate this further, then split the discussion in to it's own threat. But lets get this one back on topic.
Firstly, just look at the size of a multi-kt MX-50 missile; not big. Secondly, it doesn't have to destroy the ship - just make it too much of a pain in the arse to keep hold of it. Take out a few critical sections, kill a few crew, job done. Thirdly, the crew can evacuate beforehand; or at the very least you can't keep them onboard a damaged ship - it's a huge risk (they'll outnumber the captors) and a resource drain. Not to mention it only takes a few hardcore loyalists to plant bombs or do sucidal damage- remember Koth ramming the Colossus? Or more modern examples like WW2 Soviet Commissars.
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Whatever. :rolleyes:
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That would require material for the bombs. Also to be more then a mere nuisance you really have to put it somewhere that matters. There are comparatively few such locations and these are easily secured. If the objective is to destroy the ship then either the fuel or magazines are the only viable options. (And perhaps not even the fuel.) Not every FS ship would have much in the way of explosives lying around either.
Considering the relative size of all known FS explosive weaponry, I don't see somebody manhandling a Hornet down the hall quick enough for that. The size argument you're making here is not coherent: you forget that an MX-50 is a good thirty-plus inch diameter weapon. The Hornet is at least twenty inches. These aren't weapons you can just drag around.
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There's simply too much that can go wrong when trying to capture a ship, so why try it? I mean, to have a successful capture, you would have to...
a) Isolate the ship from the main fleet that way other capital ships can't interfere with the capture operation.
b) Clear out the ship's fighter cover so they can't interfere with the capture operation.
c) Disable and disarm the ship in question so that it can't run away and it can't fire on the troop transports.
d) Send marines in transports to dock with and take over the ship.
Now here is where it gets interesting. You know that the ship you're going to capture is going to have its own compliment of marines, who are going to be prepared to receive boarders. One Argo transport will simply not be able to carry enough troops to effectively take over a ship. You would need to send in one Argo, and hope they can claw out a foothold while you get the subsequent transports into position in order to take advantage of the breech.
In the end, its simply more time efficient to just blow up the ship question with the main guns of other capital ships.
As for what I would do if I was GTVA Command, the only thing I would've personally done different was instead of setting up a defensive line at the Capella node in Gamma Draconis, I would pull the entire 3rd Fleet back to Capella to back up the Colossus and send a few destroyers on a flanking attack. The fool who figured a defensive line could stop a ship that is completely designed to smash through such lines should've had his stars taken away.
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An argo could carry hundreds... if not thousands, of tightly packed people
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But it only has one docking point. Just give me and a squad enough ammunition and we could slaughter the lot.
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Then there's Slaying Ravana, which only proved that the GTVA didn't know what it was getting in to. We see only the end of that battle, but I'm willing to bet the first phase was increadible. At the time, they may not have had the resources on hand to deal with it, and the bomber wing was their last chance of taking it out before it left the area. It's destruction was a moral boost and probably gave Command the idea that it needed to pour more resources into fighting the Shivans.
I think the only way the Ravana could have destroyed so many ships was if the fleet was sent directly in front of it. This was insanely stupid considering the damage it could do to just 2 corvettes.
Should the Colossus have stood it's ground? I don't know, one would think not, but we don't know why the commander of that ship chose to stay
The Colossus was disabled, the captain had no choice.
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i disagree with the whole "collapse jump node prior to first sath" idea, simply because the scientist of the GTVA has not considered using massive amounts of Meson Bombs to do such as thing, such a plan would be concieved under pressure from 80+ saths bearing down on capella, only desperation would cause them to consider collapsing a jump node.
As for Being GTVA command, i would have set up RBCs around the knossos to help in the blockade of ships going in (NTF) and ships comming from (shivans).
also why would command let the iceni enter the knossos with ETAK when they could have mounted a blackops to capture the iceni when it was enroute to Regulus? i mean wouldnt it decapitate the NTF leadership as well as take away ETAK? Considering there were so few ships guarding the Iceni at the time it would have been easy. of course considering they Bosch would not sacrifice his life and ship to keep the ETAK device from the GTVA.
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Perhaps command didn't know if ETAK was finished or not. And how much work would it take. And would the friggin' thing even work. And why endanger your own people? Let the madman go to the Shivans. If he manages to form an alliance, then all is well and good and politics take care of the rest. If he fails and gets eaten, well **** happens but at least it was a madman dictator.
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Assuming Command wasn't pulling the strings the whole time.....
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What always makes me laugh about these sort of threads are the sheer number of people who state that Command were stupid for not simply deploying massive numbers of RBCs or meson bombs to achieve whatever objective they think Command should have achieved.
Does the word experimental mean nothing to you people? :p
Neither weapon had been battle tested. It's quite possible that neither weapon had been heavily tested at all before being yanked out of the labs and thrust into service. Hell given that the briefing only mentions that the scientists "claim" that the meson bomb is bigger than anything previous it seems quite likely that using it was similar to yanking out the bomb used in the Trinity test and dropping it on the Japanese instead.
So why people expect them to have been stockpiled somewhere and not used is beyond me.
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As for what I would do if I was GTVA Command, the only thing I would've personally done different was instead of setting up a defensive line at the Capella node in Gamma Draconis, I would pull the entire 3rd Fleet back to Capella to back up the Colossus and send a few destroyers on a flanking attack.
Why do so many people want to launch flanking attacks in space? It dosen't do anything. On land, it gives you the advantage of surprise, cutting the enemy's communications, going around his entrenchments, etc., but none of that applies in space where ships can simply swivel to face a new threat in a few seconds.
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There's also the question of whether they actually had enough, or any, Meson Bombs ready for deployment at that time.
However I do have to disagree somewhat Kara. Given the number needed for the plan to collapse the Capella nodes it does not seem likely the Meson Bomb was that new. I don't think they could just poof up forty or so of the most powerful warheads the GTVA has ever manufactured in a week or two. It seems more likely that the Meson Bomb had just started manufacturing rather than being in a prototype phase of development.
EDIT: Flanking still has meaning to a ship, particularly a ship in motion. An Orion's let alone a Sathanas' turn rate could almost be measured in degrees per day. One would be able to get off two or perhaps three unopposed salvos before the other guy could bring his main battery to bear; perhaps more if he was already engaged with someone else.
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There's also the question of whether they actually had enough, or any, Meson Bombs ready for deployment at that time.
However I do have to disagree somewhat Kara. Given the number needed for the plan to collapse the Capella nodes it does not seem likely the Meson Bomb was that new. I don't think they could just poof up forty or so of the most powerful warheads the GTVA has ever manufactured in a week or two. It seems more likely that the Meson Bomb had just started manufacturing rather than being in a prototype phase of development.
The game quite clearly states that the Meson is experimental not simply new.
To demolish the Knossos portal, we will detonate the meson bomb, an experimental new weapon under development at the Hideki Institute in the Vega system. Though its specifications are highly classifed, physicists claim the meson bomb has more explosive power than any other warhead in our arsenal, sufficient to destroy any small craft within a three-kilometer radius.
That's not the description of a weapon about to be put into production. They quite clearly say that it's still under development and that they aren't certain of its yield.
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Park Meson next to Colossus and see what happens. (Similarly: Would a Meson warhead destroy the Colossus? Anyone ever tried it?)
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According to the ani, there was a lot of mesons cramed into the Bastion and Niried. I assumed they started mass production as soon as the first sath was sighted.
What confuses me is why are there so few RBC's - compared to the meson bomb they should be far easier to manufacture (given that beam technolgoy is known and used for years and that this meson thing is new)
I would have entrenched Capella with EVERYTHING I have. Even a fleet of Saths would have ahard time getting trough. 20-30 destroyers, 50 corvettes and a odd cruiser or two + bombers + RBC's. A sath would be fried the second it pops out.
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I think the only way the Ravana could have destroyed so many ships was if the fleet was sent directly in front of it. This was insanely stupid considering the damage it could do to just 2 corvettes.
What other ships were there? We don't know the kind of escorts the Ravana had during that battle, most of them were probably destroyed simply getting to the Ravana in the first place.
The Colossus was disabled, the captain had no choice.
It's been a while since I played the main campaign, so I have forgotten. I still brought it up that way because some people were complaining about the fact that the Colossus did stay, and now they have the reason and should cease bringing it up.
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The disabling was a last-minute hack by :v:. The entire mission was designed with the intention that the Colossus would be moving around. My guess is that they only disabled it so it would stay in a predictable position to get targeted by the Sathanas.
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What confuses me is why are there so few RBC's - compared to the meson bomb they should be far easier to manufacture (given that beam technolgoy is known and used for years and that this meson thing is new)
Just because beams are a well known technology doesn't mean that they are cheap or easy to make.
Furthermore the Mjolnir beam was new. We've never seen anything anywhere near that powerful in a ship that size before.
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Why do so many people want to launch flanking attacks in space? It dosen't do anything. On land, it gives you the advantage of surprise, cutting the enemy's communications, going around his entrenchments, etc., but none of that applies in space where ships can simply swivel to face a new threat in a few seconds.
Read David Weber, especially his Honor Harrington series of novels. The fleet manuevers in his novels all use Newtonian/Einsteinian physics (except the traveling through hyperspace parts) and he really pays particular attention to accuracy and mathematical plausibility. He can show you how flanking maneuvers can be accomplished in deep space. :P
But FS2 uses atmospheric flight physics (even though you're supposedly flying though the vacuum of space) but the concept is still the same. You can still get yourself into positions that take advantage of the weaknesses of an enemy's formation.
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STEP 1 : Place multiple meson warheads around a jump node.
STEP 2: Allow the Sathanas to collide and detonate with the warheads as it exits subspace.
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I think that would have been logistically impossible, there was only one ship that could slow the Sathanas down, and the GTVA was hard pressed to keep up with it. In fact, I would strongly suspect that the moment the Sathanas was identified, they started moving all the remaining bombs to the Bastion in case of the need to destroy a node, that would explain why they managed to prep the Bastion so quickly when the fleet of Saths arrived.
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That's not the description of a weapon about to be put into production. They quite clearly say that it's still under development and that they aren't certain of its yield.
It still fails to explain how they whipped up forty of them for the Neried and Bastion, too.
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Yeah, but we don't really know what those warheads really are and how they are made. They could be made by compressing old furniture. Or maybe its liquid. Then it would just be a matter of pumping it in to the ships tubing. It doesn't necessarily mean there are 40 warheads, but it could mean the amount of reagent is worth 40 warheads.
Suppose they could swipe unlimited amouts of mesons from their asses. I don't think they could rework those destroyers so quickly to accommodate them. They would have to strip everythin out of the destroyer. Re route ****load of wiring, pipework, and whatever. And still maintain the original structural strenght and keep the ship working. Then they would need to somehow pile up the warheads in there (assuming they are copies of the ones deployed at the knossos). In my estimation that would take months.
Conclusion: The whole "two destroyers filled with meson warhedeads" scenario is bogus. It could not be done, so why debate the origins of the warheads when the whole issue is irrelevant.
The ending is a good one and I'm not complaining. But it can't hold under closer examination. Just like the shockwave sweeping trought the system in a minute.
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It still fails to explain how they whipped up forty of them for the Neried and Bastion, too.
It could be that meson bombs are very simple to make but hideously expensive.
Whatever rational you want to come up with it does put pay to all those claims that the GTVA should have just used more meson bombs earlier on. In A Flaming Sword it's likely that they didn't have that many more.
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where does the 40 meson bomb value come from, again?
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where does the 40 meson bomb value come from, again?
It's from the command animations that show the Orion's jampacked with Meson's.
Personally, I feel that is artistic license. There is no way you could strip out two Orion class destroyers that quickly. Considering that it only took 3 warheads to bring down the Knossos, I would say they probably put 2, maybe 3 into the fighterbays of both the Bastion and Nereid.
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Can someone check that, then? I'm curious whether it implies 40 completed meson bombs or something different - like jury rigged (but still meson bomb derivative) explosive devices sans casing, for example.
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(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3886/bastionag8.png)
Doesn't look like the casing is included, and they look to have been installed in several specific compartments, meaning they could have been shoved into cargo- or storage-areas with a lot of open space. For instance, you can see a big cluster around where the fighers would be stored, suggesting they crammed the entire flight-deck with as many Meson Bombs as they could get in there. I would bet they simply pulled as much equiptment and bulkheads as they could in areas with a lot of space, such as primary cargo holds, leaving a good deal of room for the bombs without requiring extensive deconstruction or chancing compromising structural integrity.
Obviously, the problem as to where they got the bombs remains, but as somebody said; they might be easy to produce but just expensive as all hell. Of course, when you're facing the possibility of annihilation as a species, matters such as extinction might transcend money. Or perhaps the GTVA poured all its local industrial power [which would be considerable given Vega seems to be a well-developed system] into creating as many bombs as possible in the lead-up to the plan, which would have been probably a few hours after 'Into the Lion's Den'.
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What confuses me is why are there so few RBC's - compared to the meson bomb they should be far easier to manufacture (given that beam technolgoy is known and used for years and that this meson thing is new)
Just because beams are a well known technology doesn't mean that they are cheap or easy to make.
Furthermore the Mjolnir beam was new. We've never seen anything anywhere near that powerful in a ship that size before.
a) the Mljonir is not a ship - it's a weapon platform. No crew quaters, no storage areas, no engines, no corridors.
It's a bit smaller than a cruiser, but given the free volume, packing a bigger beam than a Leviathan could carry is more than reasonable.
And what I menat to say - it's most definately cheaper and easier to make than a meson bomb - so if they had stuffed two Orion full of those things, they could have produced more than enough RBC's by that time to make a realyl effective node blockade.
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And what I menat to say - it's most definately cheaper and easier to make than a meson bomb
That's a pretty sizable assumption, right there. We don't even know how meson bombs work and you're saying that it would be both cheaper and easier to construct a considerably complicated advanced weapons platform?
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What confuses me is why are there so few RBC's - compared to the meson bomb they should be far easier to manufacture (given that beam technolgoy is known and used for years and that this meson thing is new)
Just because beams are a well known technology doesn't mean that they are cheap or easy to make.
Furthermore the Mjolnir beam was new. We've never seen anything anywhere near that powerful in a ship that size before.
a) the Mljonir is not a ship - it's a weapon platform. No crew quaters, no storage areas, no engines, no corridors.
It's a bit smaller than a cruiser, but given the free volume, packing a bigger beam than a Leviathan could carry is more than reasonable.
And what I menat to say - it's most definately cheaper and easier to make than a meson bomb - so if they had stuffed two Orion full of those things, they could have produced more than enough RBC's by that time to make a realyl effective node blockade.
For your consideration; cost of patriot missile unit - US$170m. Cost of F15 - US$30m (approx wavy handed stuff)
As another aside; historically, it's not usually cheaper to buy autonomous units (at least, not reliable ones). That's why, shockingly, people still fly planes.
As another, final aside; all a mesom bomb needs to be (in a primitive simplified sense) for what it's used for in FS2 is a fissile devices and a trigger - click, bank, done - losing control is a desired thing. An RBC needs to be reusable, reliable, autonomous, and also of course requires to be able to warm up and cool down - losing control is a bad thing. It's worth noting it's generally easier to let energy overload and explode than to control it - after all, how many weapons nowadays are based on energy (reusable, soft-state i.e. not bang-then-done), and how many on explosive action (i.e. bullets)?
Ah... one other thing. Normally, new technology is less reliable than old technology; it would be very dangerous for the GTVA to (for example) devote their reliable fighter, cruiser, etc building materials for what are untested weapons during wartime.
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a) the Mljonir is not a ship - it's a weapon platform. No crew quaters, no storage areas, no engines, no corridors.
It's a bit smaller than a cruiser, but given the free volume, packing a bigger beam than a Leviathan could carry is more than reasonable.
Did I say it was unreasonable? ::) The Mjolnir is new. The beams on the Mjolnir are new. Nothing else carries mjolnir beams. Your entire assumption completely ignores this fact.
And what I menat to say - it's most definately cheaper and easier to make than a meson bomb - so if they had stuffed two Orion full of those things, they could have produced more than enough RBC's by that time to make a realyl effective node blockade.
That's a ****ing big assumption you're making there on absolutely no data whatsoever.
1) Where in the game does it quote the price of either the RBC or the Meson bomb?
2) Where does it state the time taken to make either?
Seeing as it does neither I don't know how you can possibly claim that one is cheaper or easier than the other? Especially given the fact that we never see the RBC ever again yet we do see lots more meson bombs stuffed into a pair of Orions.
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The point is we have no ****ing clue so we can't say anything one way or another about it. Besides, mining an area isn't really that threatening, it merely slows the advance of an incoming force. Since they can obviously see that it's mined, they simply just need to take a little time to dismantle them. If you mine the other side, it'll be devastating for the first couple of ships that get there, but I think command wanted to completely prevent the Shivans from leaving Capella, not just hurt them once they did.
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Mining the area (say GD or the GD/Cap Jumpnode area) would have bought them the time they needed to implement the plan for the Nereid to blow the Vega node. (and save more lives in that last mission.)
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Mining the area (say GD or the GD/Cap Jumpnode area) would have bought them the time they needed to implement the plan for the Nereid to blow the Vega node. (and save more lives in that last mission.)
But did they have time to mine it to save them time? Maybe not, maybe they had to scramble and just throw everything out there at once.
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How powerful is a mine? What proximity is it effective for? How many mines do they have to deploy? Can a minefield be cleared out by enemy fighters? What if the enemy uses suicide runs of cruisers to clear the minefield?
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Since minefields do not seem to be very popular in FS universe (according to official campaigns), we can assume they are fairly ineffective. Perhaps they are not cost effective, voulerable to ECM, ineffective against anything larger than Amazon or whatever. Point here being the first sentence. No reason to assume minefield are nothing more than scrap metal.
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I think that SDGs would supplant mines, anyway, if just going by range. Besides, Mines are ineffective anywhere except where a ship could be forced to run into them, so why bother developing them for space, anyway?
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I think that SDGs would supplant mines, anyway, if just going by range. Besides, Mines are ineffective anywhere except where a ship could be forced to run into them, so why bother developing them for space, anyway?
Well the thought is that since ships have to go through subspace nodes, then you could mine the nodes to cause damage, but that only works if you want them to go through that node, so that they run into the mines at the node on the other side. If you have it set up on the side they can see, then it should be an easy task to approach them carefully, and then dismantle the. Command didn't want to mine the other side of the node because they wanted to keep the Shivans locked in Capella, not lure them away towards their inhabited systems.
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Mjolnirs would not be effective to blockade nodes for any significant period of time. They're way too vunerable against fighters. Anyone who's played Rogue Intentions will know what I'm talking about.
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well as far as i'm concerned if I would have been in GTVA commands place and got sight of those shivans again...i would definatly start mass prouction of as many RBC's as I can ! Not only that but I would definatly try to blocade every pertinent node with as many RBC's as I can .
Also I would not let the god damn NTF get away with half of mi freaking fleets. God that makes me mad. I mean how the hell can GTVI SOC and every other inteligence branch of the GTVA have made such a blunde and not know anything about the impending rebelion.
Also I would make every effort I can to RECAPTURE the ships from the NTF and not blow them up.
To this day I have yet to fogure outhow the hell did the NTF managed to survive for so long in front of the GTVA overwhelming firepower. Must have something to do with the ETAK no doubt.
Also I would never ever send mi most powerfull warship against an enemy wich is clearly overpowering me and let it get destroyed just so it can buy me a a few more seconds. That is a big mistake. The Colosus was misused fort the very beginning. It was ment to take out multiple destroyers not multiple juggs ........hell it wasnt even meant to take out a sigle jugg.
After receiving the scans from the scouting party regarding the sath i would definatly use multiple destroyer class warships to take it out from its weaker flanks then put the collie in front of it.
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well as far as i'm concerned if I would have been in GTVA commands place and got sight of those shivans again...i would definatly start mass prouction of as many RBC's as I can ! Not only that but I would definatly try to blocade every pertinent node with as many RBC's as I can .
Also I would not let the god damn NTF get away with half of mi freaking fleets. God that makes me mad. I mean how the hell can GTVI SOC and every other inteligence branch of the GTVA have made such a blunde and not know anything about the impending rebelion.
Also I would make every effort I can to RECAPTURE the ships from the NTF and not blow them up.
To this day I have yet to fogure outhow the hell did the NTF managed to survive for so long in front of the GTVA overwhelming firepower. Must have something to do with the ETAK no doubt.
Also I would never ever send mi most powerfull warship against an enemy wich is clearly overpowering me and let it get destroyed just so it can buy me a a few more seconds. That is a big mistake. The Colosus was misused fort the very beginning. It was ment to take out multiple destroyers not multiple juggs ........hell it wasnt even meant to take out a sigle jugg.
After receiving the scans from the scouting party regarding the sath i would definatly use multiple destroyer class warships to take it out from its weaker flanks then put the collie in front of it.
Did you make a point of ignoring every other reply in this thread or something? All of these have been addressed before - and some on this very page.
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ummm mi bad sorry!
I do vae a question: Does the GTVA posses specialize teams of marines or whatever trained to capture enemy warships???
Hell they dont have to capture enemy warships just capture theyr own damn warships!
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ummm mi bad sorry!
I do vae a question: Does the GTVA posses specialize teams of marines or whatever trained to capture enemy warships???
Hell they dont have to capture enemy warships just capture theyr own damn warships!
Done this previously, too.
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But did they have time to mine it to save them time? Maybe not, maybe they had to scramble and just throw everything out there at once.
Sure, the retreating fleet just had to drop all those EMP bombs that nobody uses :lol: Specifically in the timeframe of right before the Colossus gets destroyed while blockading the node with the cruisers.
Seriously though, go in node one way and out the other, lay bombs/mines right at the mouth of the apature to the subspace corridor. Even if the fighters had to clear them out, it'd stll take some time depending on how many they had. Also might make them consolidate around the node for a time (time that could be used for civies to evacuate from capella..even 5-10 mins could have made a difference as seen in the last mission of the campaign.
EDIT ADD: In addition, we know that the GTVA uses stealth tech to shield ships (at least partially) from Shivan Sensors, an AWACS could do this most likely (even if it's by blocking transmissions so the ones that get destroyed can't communicate back) or put that shielding on the mines themselves if this is possible although that would include time intensive modifications which would slow down the process considerably.
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Send a big bomb trought the node to make a hole in the minefield. Then send fighters or cruisers to clear out the rest. The rest can be detected by using various means. They are static solid objects, so old fashioned radar would detect them. Or drive in circle and see how they move against the background. That would have taken time, but not nearly as much as creating the minefield. So when minefileds are nothing but a waste of time, one can assume that nobody has even bothered with them in a long time. Since we have no reason to assume that GTVA has any ability to create effective minefields (do not have mines or ships with fast minelaying capacity).
You wan't to block a node? Drag something big in it. Couple of large asteroids in the node is much more cost effective and quicker than a minefield. It would also be just as ineffective slowing down enemy advance.
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Ahem...
The purposes of "mine fields" are always these:
-slow the enemy force down by forcing them to perform mine clearing operations before advancing
-cause N percentage of casualties to an enemy force penetrating it without clearing a route
-limit the enemy's possibilities of movement and, if they have no mine clearing equipment, force them to either go round the mine field or go through it and suffer casualties.
In some situations, a mine field would be an exellent solution against slow moving, big capital ships, in order to achieve one or more of the goals stated above. It's also interesting to note that in Star Wars games there are "mines" used in missions. Completely analogous defensive weapons are used in Freespace, they're just called sentry guns.
Which kinda makes the sentry guns, RBC's and such one kind of "mines" in themselves, and with this definition of "mine", mines ARE used in FS and FS2.
Though they are more related to actively detonated Claymore mines, or perhaps off-route mines.
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Does anyone else get the feeling that command and the GTVA have always been fighting on terms or grounds(in this case regions of space) imposed by the enemy?? I mean I can not really pin point a battle where the GTVA dictated the location and the terms of the engagement.
Also one more thing I would do diferently is not to send several warships to get trashed by the ravana ! Just send in the bommbers to take out its turrets etc. and perhaps then send in the heavy warships. But then againthis is something which i'm sure was already mentioned. Hoever another idea poped up in mi head. Why not simply disable the ravana and them move in really fast several transports of marines to capture the blasted thing. I mean it would of been something as important as the Knossos . Sure there would of been severe casualties but what the heck they are all worth it if it helps me take hold of a shivand brand new destroyer. I mean it sure as hell beats getting your fleets decimated by the blasted thing without taking it out....., same heavy casualties no effect.
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Does anyone else get the feeling that command and the GTVA have always been fighting on terms or grounds(in this case regions of space) imposed by the enemy?? I mean I can not really pin point a battle where the GTVA dictated the location and the terms of the engagement.
In my opinion, nearly every major engagement prior to the discovery of the Sathanas fleet was dictated on GTVA terms. They got caught off guard a couple of times sure, and they lost a few ships trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage. However, for all intents and purposes they had the enemy exactly where they wanted them when the smoke cleared. After the discovery of the Sathanas fleet, now, their backs were against the wall.
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Does anyone else get the feeling that command and the GTVA have always been fighting on terms or grounds(in this case regions of space) imposed by the enemy?? I mean I can not really pin point a battle where the GTVA dictated the location and the terms of the engagement.
Firstly, the entire campaign effectively centres around retaking enemy held systems (NTF), attacking the Shivans in Shivan territory (nebula), and evacuating a densely populated system whilst an overwhelming force of juggernauts attacks. Not massive conducive to controlling the battles. Additionally - and this is something people seem to forget very often - the enemy generally isn't eager to play into your hands. All the 'ambush Sathanas at the sides' etc statements tend to overwhelmingly rely on the Shivans (or indeed NTf, et al) being stupid.
I checked the briefings anyways;
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Briefing_texts_%28FS2%29) Secondly; Feint! Parry! Riposte! - perfect example. Arguably Slaying Ravana (GTVA intiated). The Sicillian Defense. Speaking in Tongues (semi; the last part of the command briefing mentions planned and co-ordinated strikes). High Noon (again, arguably - depending on Bearbaiting result it's either a planned killing blow or a last resort).
Also one more thing I would do diferently is not to send several warships to get trashed by the ravana ! Just send in the bommbers to take out its turrets etc. and perhaps then send in the heavy warships. But then againthis is something which i'm sure was already mentioned. Hoever another idea poped up in mi head. Why not simply disable the ravana and them move in really fast several transports of marines to capture the blasted thing. I mean it would of been something as important as the Knossos . Sure there would of been severe casualties but what the heck they are all worth it if it helps me take hold of a shivand brand new destroyer. I mean it sure as hell beats getting your fleets decimated by the blasted thing without taking it out....., same heavy casualties no effect.
(what makes you think they weren't trying to disable and disarm it? or that they weren't using bombers before the player arrives?)
Capture a Ravana? Are you mad? 3 Shivans decimated a larger Terran squad in Hallfight - how much more damage do you think thousands would do?
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Yeah, I can see capturing small vessels to learn more about Shivan tech, as was done in FS1, but Command lost interest in those kinds of manuevers for the most part in FS2. They apparantly felt that operations such as those were not really necessary for the war effort. They captured some Mara's to learn about fighter tech, but no capital ships because GTVA cap ship weapons were on par with Shivan cap ship weapons at this point. Capturing Shivans is costly and dangerous and would be pointless because it would lead to very little useful information.
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are you sure about that? Lets not forget that GTVA beams are far from beeing equal to the shivan counterparts (Ex: BFRed vs BFG) . Also I seriously doubt that by capturing an enemy vesssel you wouldnt learn anything. For one you could find detailed maps or coordinates of jumpoints the GTVA has no idea exist. Second you could go through the things database and perhaps find out just how large the enemy force is not to mention studying the shivan subspace tech engines weapon sistems fighter/bommber compliment if any are left.
Hell where do i even start there is so much you could find out from an enemy capship. Also you would find out about its limitations and perhaps means ...better means of taking the enemy ship out. Not to mention means of improving your own weapons ship designs etc.
Capturing a ravana would of been a huge inteligence and tactical achievement.
Also about the whole 3 shivans beat a whole squad of terrans thing yeah i agree but lets not forget they went in totaly unprepared for the shivans the first time and later during the Iceni capture atempt you get messages that say the coridors ar filled with human and shivan bodyes which mean they have gotten a lot better at killing shivans then before.
Oh and even if it cost me 10 or 30.000 soldiers to capture the blasted thing I would do it. Lets not forget they wasted an equal amount of men tring to take it out in the first place. So from mi POV sacrificing that many soldiers to achieve such a succes would more then convenient.
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Oh and even if it cost me 10 or 30.000 soldiers to capture the blasted thing I would do it.
I think we can all be thankful that you'll never be put in a position of authority then.
Lets not forget they wasted an equal amount of men tring to take it out in the first place. So from mi POV sacrificing that many soldiers to achieve such a succes would more then convenient.
It would have taken more lives to capture the Ravana intact than to have destroyed it. Not to mention the fact that the Ravana is hardly likely to sit there and let itself get disabled.
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are you sure about that? Lets not forget that GTVA beams are far from beeing equal to the shivan counterparts (Ex: BFRed vs BFG) . Also I seriously doubt that by capturing an enemy vesssel you wouldnt learn anything. For one you could find detailed maps or coordinates of jumpoints the GTVA has no idea exist. Second you could go through the things database and perhaps find out just how large the enemy force is not to mention studying the shivan subspace tech engines weapon sistems fighter/bommber compliment if any are left.
Except the GTVA doesn't 'speak' Shivan, and even if they did, there is absolutely no reason to believe Shivan computer systems are comparable, compatible, or even on the same paradigm as GTVA. Imagine, say, the difficulty of decoding Egyptian hyroglyphs without a Rosetta stone. And that's for a language build around human perception and contexts; even something as basic base-10 maths is a human invention (10 fingers). What if Shivan computers started in 5-state rather than binary values?
Hell where do i even start there is so much you could find out from an enemy capship. Also you would find out about its limitations and perhaps means ...better means of taking the enemy ship out. Not to mention means of improving your own weapons ship designs etc.
Only if you understand enough to do so. And assuming the Shivans would let it be captured, of course; they have rather a history of destroying captured vessels, even assuming there is no self-destruct device.
Capturing a ravana would of been a huge inteligence and tactical achievement.
It would be a huge achievement (in the sense of the obstacles overcome), but one worth the massive expense? If you put me in charge of, say, a particle accelerator, I can't do anything with it because I don't understand the technology.... make that highly advanced alien race and it becomes 10 times more difficult.
Also about the whole 3 shivans beat a whole squad of terrans thing yeah i agree but lets not forget they went in totaly unprepared for the shivans the first time and later during the Iceni capture atempt you get messages that say the coridors ar filled with human and shivan bodyes which mean they have gotten a lot better at killing shivans then before.
I believe that message gives the impression that the human personnel were 'slaughtered'; I think the term used is 'some Shivans are among the dead', which scarcely lends weight to the belief that the Terrans 'won'.... not to mention that a) the Shivans got what they wanted and b) this was Terran ground. And c) we don't know who fired first.
Also, whilst they may have been unprepared for the Shivans, the boarding crew were prepared for battle - and there's no basis for assuming the Shivans were prepared, either, so to speculate 'who was ready' as an excuse is rather futile in both directions. Even accounting for the 1st contact nature, it's evident that Shivans are faster, stronger ("Each Shivan leg ends in a very strong claw, capable of crushing even the sturdiest of known alloys"), and have better weaponry than GTVA soldiers.
Oh and even if it cost me 10 or 30.000 soldiers to capture the blasted thing I would do it. Lets not forget they wasted an equal amount of men tring to take it out in the first place. So from mi POV sacrificing that many soldiers to achieve such a succes would more then convenient.
How would you get 10,000 soldiers into the ship? (assuming it didn't require more, of course) What happens if you can only blow a couple of holes in the hull for ingress? How can you co-ordinate a massive assault without knowing the ships internal defenses, crew numbers, or layout? How many transports would you need? What risk is there to that transport? What if the Shivans depressurize the hall, forcing your marines into environmental suits? Where do you get 10,000 - a destroyers' crew worth - of soldiers from, anyways? Where do you hold them, and how do you mandate the risk they face with anything less than a shadow fleet to protect them? what happens if the Shivans pop up and *bang* kill 5,000 soldiers by taking out their transports at the staging area before or during your attack on the Ravana?
Lets say you sacrifice 10,000, and still can't capture it. What then? Throw in another 1,000 or so? Just keep pissing bodies against the wall in a sucide attack in the hope you can salvage information from a totally alien vessel, and in the hope the Shivans won't just pop up and nuke the thing as soon as you have it?
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Oh and even if it cost me 10 or 30.000 soldiers to capture the blasted thing I would do it.
I think we can all be thankful that you'll never be put in a position of authority then.
Lets not forget they wasted an equal amount of men tring to take it out in the first place. So from mi POV sacrificing that many soldiers to achieve such a succes would more then convenient.
It would have taken more lives to capture the Ravana intact than to have destroyed it. Not to mention the fact that the Ravana is hardly likely to sit there and let itself get disabled.
:nod:
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Aldo you sure know how to demoralize someone. Whats with all the pesimism? I did not say such and endeavour had 100% chances of succes. But still lets not forget we managed to get a couple of shivan fighters to work. This means that the GTVA does posses some kind of shivan tech understaning. Also for language and stuff we have the ETAK project dont we?
I know they didnt manage to get the engines working but at least they managed to get everything else working like targeting computers sensors etc. This all sugests that shivan tech and GTVA tech is not all that diferent. Sure shivan tech may be more advanced but the tech language is not that different as you asume.
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The ETAK wasn't proven to be able to communicate effectively with the Shivans, it merely proved that it could be used to get their attention, to pique their interest with something else other than them trying to annihalate everything in sight. The ETAK made the Shivans want to take Bosch and company and then annihalate everyone else. Whether or not they went ahead and killed Bosch and company anyway we don't know.
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Aldo you sure know how to demoralize someone. Whats with all the pesimism?
Realism is not pessimism. This may only be relating to a game, but you should be prepared for this level of basic consideration for any debate in life. Apply the same shallowness of thinking to a real, non-trivial problem and you will be screwed - hence why I point these things out here.
I did not say such and endeavour had 100% chances of succes. But still lets not forget we managed to get a couple of shivan fighters to work. This means that the GTVA does posses some kind of shivan tech understaning.
Show me one FS2 ship build using Shivan technology? We have seen a couple of fighters, jury rigged to work. I can drive a car - it doesn't mean I understand the thermodynamic and engineering principles required to build a new one from scratch.
Also for language and stuff we have the ETAK project dont we?
do we? Even if ETAK works, that has no value whatsoever for interfacing with technology. In order to have something to translate, first you have to obtain it. Moreso, ETAK may very well have been 'audio' (the command brief references to Shivan communication seem to bear this out); that's different from written language (a cursory glance at the problems of speech recognition and text-to-speech indicates this, and that's on a level of highly advanced linguistic knowledge of the whole language and its grammar).
I know they didnt manage to get the engines working but at least they managed to get everything else working like targeting computers sensors etc. This all sugests that shivan tech and GTVA tech is not all that diferent. Sure shivan tech may be more advanced but the tech language is not that different as you asume.
See above. Additionally, there is a substantial difference between a fighter and computer system. A fighter will have certain common requirements - like engines, weapons, power sources, etc. A computer system doesn't - it can be build in any way. Imagine the difference between an abacus and a pocket calculator. More importantly, imagine someone at the level of an abacus trying to understand the precise operation of a pocket calculator... and even then, the abacus user has numerical knowledge (equiv. to language, grammar, structure - the background of the device) applicable to their study in excess to that of our hypothetical GTVA/Shivan situation.
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He has one point, Aldo. While I agree with your principles regarding this matter, I think you have a tendency to, (How should I say it?) aggressively argue when trying to prove your point. I think you should tone it down a little, say your statements without sounding overly aggressive.
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I apologise for the terrible sin of having the audacity to state an opinion.
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I apologise for the terrible sin of having the audacity to state an opinion.
It's not stating the opinion that's bad, Aldo, it's just the way you say it. It comes across as if you're talking down to them, I think. Just dial back the intensity of your tone, is all I'm saying. Let's all try to be civil.
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Compared to past experiences, Aldo's counterarguement has been rather tame this time. When you've been around a bit longer, you'll know when he isn't being civil. :rolleyes:
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Right, but I just wanted to sort of let him think real quick because his argument seemed to be heading that way, LOL. I just wanted to let him catch himself before this thread turns into a shouting match.
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Name the last time I got into a shouting match?
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Show me one FS2 ship build using Shivan technology?
No ships, but we got beams from them and Kaysers are based on their guns.
I'm just throwing this out in the wind here, but assuming that shivans are vulnerable to vacuum, perhaps capturing would be more feasible if we placed hull breaches in order to clear out Shivan personnel without endangering the ship? Then we could dissect their technology without worrying about strike teams.
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Show me one FS2 ship build using Shivan technology?
No ships, but we got beams from them and Kaysers are based on their guns.
I'm just throwing this out in the wind here, but assuming that shivans are vulnerable to vacuum, perhaps capturing would be more feasible if we placed hull breaches in order to clear out Shivan personnel without endangering the ship? Then we could dissect their technology without worrying about strike teams.
I'll give you Kaysers, but beams is a guess.
Albeit it's not clear exactly how Shivan tech factors into the Kayser; there's a difference between mimicking the physical properties of the tech and actually replicating the technology wholesale, I think. What I mean is, you can discover 'bits' of it - spark new ideas or discoveries from the technology - without necessarily understanding the technology wholesale. Like taking a car, and learning the wheel, axle, maybe even the combustion engine, but still not understanding ABS, or drive-by-wire style microchips, etc. That is, learning enough to mimic, or add new advances, without matching the source. Arguably, the Kayser is (likely to be) inefficient compared to the Shivan weaponry, for example. (to be fair, the vagarities of gameplay balance can make it hard to be sure about these things - is the Kayser less or more efficient than the storyline states?)
Shivans aren't vulnerable to vacuum (decompression, I don't know about) - one of the Silent Thread secret cutscenes (showing a Shivan in space, jumping onto a Vasudan fighter, and ripping it to shreds). The description in the Fs1 ref bible for the cut cutscene where the Lucifer destroys the Taranis and, er, wherever it was also describes individual Shivans jumping from the Lucifer and freely travelling through space to attack. (this is why I mentioned them venting the hull as a defense mechanism).
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There you go, the last post was superb, Aldo! :yes: No more from me on that matter.
One reason to think that beams are not exactly a copy of Shivan tech is the fact that the colors are different. I think that is because possibly they are using different focusing crystals, or if the beams are a charged particle beam, they use different elements of the periodic table. So that shows that they are not replicating the technology exactly, merely mimicking it.
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Okay...back on the vacuum thing...if you watch hallfight, you can see that the Terrans boarding the ship have exposed skin. The fact that they're not being turned inside out means that the Shivan craft is pressurized at a leval tolerable to humans, which also means that Shivans also like "Terran" pressure. If they didn't care about pressure, they wouldn't bother pressurizing their own ship to begin with. Still...they aren't vacuum vulnerable, so I may be just babbling on this end.
As for the masks the Terrans are wearing in hallfight, I doubt they're breathing apparatuses, but it could be possible so I'll say that they are. Still, because we have pressure, we have gasses. The presence of any sort of gas aboard the Shivan vessel, oxygen or not, means they breathe something. This also means that a Shivan must board a Shivan vessel at some point to take a breath. So perhaps Shivans hold their breath when they enter vacuum, but they cannot survive for an extended time without whatever it is they breathe...which means depressurization would be fatal to them after a certain amount of time because they'll have asphyxiated without their precious atmosphere...so maybe the depressuization strategy would work?
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Okay...back on the vacuum thing...if you watch hallfight, you can see that the Terrans boarding the ship have exposed skin. The fact that they're not being turned inside out means that the Shivan craft is pressurized at a leval tolerable to humans, which also means that Shivans also like "Terran" pressure. If they didn't care about pressure, they wouldn't bother pressurizing their own ship to begin with. Still...they aren't vacuum vulnerable, so I may be just babbling on this end.
As for the masks the Terrans are wearing in hallfight, I doubt they're breathing apparatuses, but it could be possible so I'll say that they are. Still, because we have pressure, we have gasses. The presence of any sort of gas aboard the Shivan vessel, oxygen or not, means they breathe something. This also means that a Shivan must board a Shivan vessel at some point to take a breath. So perhaps Shivans hold their breath when they enter vacuum, but they cannot survive for an extended time without whatever it is they breathe...which means depressurization would be fatal to them after a certain amount of time because they'll have asphyxiated without their precious atmosphere...so maybe the depressuization strategy would work?
Well, pressurization could simply be for mechanical or other reasons rather than comfort (unlikely, granted); perhaps some technology works better in pressure than vacuum. It might just simply be comfortable to have gases; or useful against previous enemies, such as a biological weapon (this is very unlikely and highly speculative, of course). The Shivans could perhaps have evolved past a need for gases but keep them for emotional or connotative reasons (related to comfort) - reminders of home.
It could also be that the GTVA performed some form of basic pressurization on the transport before boarding (perhaps not possible with larger ship classes?).
The Shivans can also possibly store gas internally (i.e. have an innate ability to survive without the physical compromise of an enviro-suit), allowing them to adopt this tactic - or they might just fight to the death and screw worrying about breathing later. Also, if the Shivans are vulnerable to asphyxia, then they will likely have both defenses and tactics against decompression - it's scarcely inconceivable in a warship, after all.
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Well, first of all, you can have gases at pressures humans would find confortable, but not be of mixtures that would be healthy to breath, i.e. not enough oxygen or too much of chlorine or something that makes the air toxic. In other words, it has gases, but it's not "gas-free." (Gas free is a term used by mariners that means that the air is safe to breath.)
That cutscene always confused me because I can't see why the Shivans would have a pressurized atmosphere in their ships, but not gravity. In nature, you're only going to have pressurized gases where significant gravity exists. Perhaps they were created by some other species or evolved from a space-faring species that had not yet developed artificial gravity systems on their ships. So, they would have pressurized space ships, but be accostumed to a zero-g environment.
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There you go, the last post was superb, Aldo! :yes: No more from me on that matter.
I think you'll find that the way BurntCornMuffin phrases things is partly responsible for that.
I'm just throwing this out in the wind here, but assuming that shivans are vulnerable to vacuum, perhaps capturing would be more feasible if we placed hull breaches in order to clear out Shivan personnel without endangering the ship?
I can't speak for Aldo but what annoys the hell out of me is people posting assertions with no evidence and no attempt to even consider that they might be wrong. Now compare that with AlphaOne's style of posting and see if you can't spot a fairly large difference.
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Well, first of all, you can have gases at pressures humans would find confortable, but not be of mixtures that would be healthy to breath, i.e. not enough oxygen or too much of chlorine or something that makes the air toxic. In other words, it has gases, but it's not "gas-free." (Gas free is a term used by mariners that means that the air is safe to breath.)
That cutscene always confused me because I can't see why the Shivans would have a pressurized atmosphere in their ships, but not gravity. In nature, you're only going to have pressurized gases where significant gravity exists. Perhaps they were created by some other species or evolved from a space-faring species that had not yet developed artificial gravity systems on their ships. So, they would have pressurized space ships, but be accostumed to a zero-g environment.
Or perhaps they physically evolved - or modified themselves - to operate comfortably without gravity but as of yet have not removed the physiological need for gases.
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Or perhaps the ship in Hallfight usually did have gravity but was damaged when the GTA shot it repeatedly :D
The handholds in the roof etc could be there for just such an occurance.
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The thing about vacuum breaches is that you'd think that in a space-faring warship, that they'd have air-tight compartments to isolate depressurizations. In modern naval warships in the US, we set "condition Z" (pronounced Zebra) which means we close all water-tight doors and hatches and isolate ventilation and water systems so that if a section of the ship was blown off, you wouldn't flood the entire ship or loose the functionality of your vital systems. We could assume that space-navy ships would probably have a similar design philosophy. Essentially the only part that you would depressurize would be compartments located near the outer hull, while the interior would remain fully pressurized. Besides, navies would probably have procedures on how to deal with loss of pressurization scenarioes such as skin-suits and such. Read David Weber, he shows how it's done.
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yea, every space-faring ship I've encountered in sci-fi has had some sort of defense against hull breaches. These life-saveres are called bulkheads. They automatically close and seal, leaving those inside to experience vacuum for the first and last time, and those who are on the other side of the bulkheads just get light headed...
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The thing about vacuum breaches is that you'd think that in a space-faring warship, that they'd have air-tight compartments to isolate depressurizations. In modern naval warships in the US, we set "condition Z" (pronounced Zebra) which means we close all water-tight doors and hatches and isolate ventilation and water systems so that if a section of the ship was blown off, you wouldn't flood the entire ship or loose the functionality of your vital systems. We could assume that space-navy ships would probably have a similar design philosophy. Essentially the only part that you would depressurize would be compartments located near the outer hull, while the interior would remain fully pressurized. Besides, navies would probably have procedures on how to deal with loss of pressurization scenarioes such as skin-suits and such. Read David Weber, he shows how it's done.
huh? What's this in relation to?
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I think it goes without saying that both Terrans and Vasudans use that system and if the Shivans do have gases on their ships then it's pretty much a certainty that they do too. However if you're a member of a race like the Shivans which can withstand being in a vacuum then you'd rig it so that the ship could be deliberately vented as long as your equipment wouldn''t suffer from ill effects in hard vacuum.
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Wait, if Shivans need to inhale some sort of gas, they have a weakness. Depending on where the air-intake is (the nose for humans), we could just blast that through their thick skulls... :nervous:
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Personally, I've always thought that the shivans wore some kind of powered armor/suit. Just my opinion though.
Additionally, I would hope that the GTVA would understand to read some shivan writing. Case for this as follows:
1. Captured Dragon in FS1.
2. Captured mara's in FS2.
They had to learn to use the controls somehow and I believe that there is probably writing in there somewhere, if not at least for the UI/database for basic controlled flight.
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Personally, I've always thought that the shivans wore some kind of powered armor/suit. Just my opinion though.
Volition stated (on the VBB) we were seeing the Shivans true form, not a suit. Plus, there's enough knowledge and specimens in FS1 & ST to determine whether it was a suit or not, methinks.
Additionally, I would hope that the GTVA would understand to read some shivan writing. Case for this as follows:
1. Captured Dragon in FS1.
2. Captured mara's in FS2.
They had to learn to use the controls somehow and I believe that there is probably writing in there somewhere, if not at least for the UI/database for basic controlled flight.
"Push this button.... what does it do? Left? Ok, left."
Seriously, you don't need instructions for this sort of thing - even assuming the Shivans have instructions. On one hand, look at a car - no written instructions, but most people with a base knowledge can work it out (i.e. determining the accelerator, clutch, etc) with some trial and error. On the other hand, you can also imagine an airliner cockpit - it has lots of controls with lettering, but to the layman they are still indecipherably complex. Plus, the indications are IIRC that Shivans are integrated with the control system - they don't need labels or manuals most likely in that case, because it's a straight brain-flight activity type mapping (you'd need to map Shivan brain patterns to output, rather than control operation to ouput).
Essentially, all you need is a bit of trial and error; it's not requisite, even if helpful, to have instructions. Plus, we don't even know if the Shivans need writing...... or possess the ability.
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some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man. But then again we do not know that the shivans actuali evolved but instead there are some indications that they were actualy created yet that has yet to be proven.
But still reverse engeniering shivan tech however difiult it mai apear must be a lot more easy then it apears if the GTVA managed to not only get a few fighters to work except the engines but they actualy managed to improve on the available tech. You can not do that simply by reproducing on a more rudimentary level the available tech. For the to improve it they would have to understand it...!
So in the end i believe shivan tech advanaced and complicated as it mai be is not that dificult to understand and deciphre that it would prove an insurmountable task .
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some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man.
Among evolved primates, yes. I'd prefer not to make such assumptions about extraterrestrial life, especially creatures as enigmatic as the Shivans.
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Among evolved primates, yes. I'd prefer not to make such assumptions about extraterrestrial life, especially creatures as enigmatic as the Shivans.
So all Shivans have perfect recall?
Maybe they do now, since they're all living in cybernetic bodies, but I don't think they came that way. There's really no reason at all to assume any form of biological life will not require some method of keeping permanent records to attain any serious technological development. If it acts anything like life as we know it, it's fairly certain they have writing of some kind.
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A hive mind may have no need whatsoever for language of any sort. Let alone written language
some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man.
If the Shivans aren't a race so much as a single entity then they wouldn't need a written language. In fact they probably wouldn't even understand the concept of language. The same goes for most other kinds of hive or group minds.
Or the Shivans may have a method of passing on information directly between themselves that is good enough to never need to write anything down.
I can come up with about a dozen other theories that explain why that assertion is complete nonsense when dealing with a species you know next to nothing about.
But then again we do not know that the shivans actuali evolved but instead there are some indications that they were actualy created yet that has yet to be proven.
Name one indication that they were created. There's nothing like that in the game at all AFAIK. What you're posting is complete conjecture. I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves.
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Additionally, I would hope that the GTVA would understand to read some shivan writing. Case for this as follows:
1. Captured Dragon in FS1.
2. Captured mara's in FS2.
They had to learn to use the controls somehow and I believe that there is probably writing in there somewhere, if not at least for the UI/database for basic controlled flight.
Didn't they replace the entire control setup in those fighters? I doubt a human/Vasudan would fit comfortably into a Shivan-porportioned cockpit. They probably just set up new controls, and hooked them up to the parts of the fighter. Don't need alien linguistics experts to do that, just engineers.
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Name one indication that they were created. There's nothing like that in the game at all AFAIK. What you're posting is complete conjecture. I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves.
:eek2:
Karajorma, the great FS2 master of knowledge! I am surprised at you! Here's a quote directly from the tech room regarding the Shivans.
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity.
Of course, this doesn't mean that the Shivans were constructed, and when I mean constructed, I mean they were "created by other beings," not that they come off an assembly line. However, it does mean that canon supports the theory, and to say that they might have been created is just as valid as saying the might not have been.
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IMHO, that's just :v: messing with our heads.
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some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man. But then again we do not know that the shivans actuali evolved but instead there are some indications that they were actualy created yet that has yet to be proven.
That only applies to an anthrocentric view. It's a classic mistake to assume the development of human intelligence defines the development of any intelligences. The Shivans might, for example, have quasi-telepathy (or straight out telepathy) and genetic memory that reduces or removes the necessity for written information. They might, for example, place markers (such as warning signs) through scent, radiation, or visible light wavelength rather than by geometric painted shapes.
(EDIT; imagine, for example, a race that communicated by releasing & scenting pheremones - how would such a race have 'writing' and would we even recognise it as such?)
Additionally, the Shivans could have evolved past the need for such comparatively primitive data representation; perhaps storing information as quasi-brain patterns that can be directly copied to the Shivan subconscious. Finally, if writing does exist, it may be of a manner unreadable to human eyes; perhaps the Shivans can sense subspace patterns, and use sensation this to add a sort of 3rd axis (if we view human writing as '2D' or flat) which provides contextual information to writing.
Not to forget the previously mentioned hive mind theories, of course.
But still reverse engeniering shivan tech however difiult it mai apear must be a lot more easy then it apears if the GTVA managed to not only get a few fighters to work except the engines but they actualy managed to improve on the available tech. You can not do that simply by reproducing on a more rudimentary level the available tech. For the to improve it they would have to understand it...!
So in the end i believe shivan tech advanaced and complicated as it mai be is not that dificult to understand and deciphre that it would prove an insurmountable task .
The exact quote is "Our engineers have modified and optimized these craft. They'll handle even better than the Shivan original, and if you play it right, you might even avoid enemy detection."
That doesn't say improved; it says optimized (pushed as much performance as they can conceive with modified Shivan technology) and improved the handling. That's a world away from reaching the Shivans tech level, and it doesn't imply actually adding to it - only playing around with various settings and tweaks. Plus, given the frequency they are frittered away at, there's no reason for believing the Mara is the height of Shivan technology - or even representative of the depth and complexity of a Shivan tactical computer system or large scale system. finally, it's worth observing that even with Great War specimens (including from the GTI), the GTVA pilots are (by canonical messages at least) astounded by the Mara, indicating that manufacturing such a ship (different from steal and retrofitting it) is beyond GTVA capabilities.
Name one indication that they were created. There's nothing like that in the game at all AFAIK. What you're posting is complete conjecture. I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves.
:eek2:
Karajorma, the great FS2 master of knowledge! I am surprised at you! Here's a quote directly from the tech room regarding the Shivans.
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity.
Of course, this doesn't mean that the Shivans were constructed, and when I mean constructed, I mean they were "created by other beings," not that they come off an assembly line. However, it does mean that canon supports the theory, and to say that they might have been created is just as valid as saying the might not have been.
The pertinent part of karas comment is "I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves." The techroom entry itself only offers that (Shivans as designed entities) as a suggestion, but it does not provide a basis that cannot be applied to self-design (as kara says), and additionally it is worth noting the techroom entry is effectively from before the main campaign and thus wouldn't any (conjectural, I recognise) discoveries that may have been made during the progress of the FS2 campaign.
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IMHO, that's just :v: messing with our heads.
You can say that, but the fact is that the theory remains plausible. It could be that the Shivans were created as slaves for another species, and then the Shivans destroyed their creators before moving on to destroy all other species. It's also possible that the Shivans evolved naturally. However, since :v: threw the possibility out there that they could have been created, that lends credibility to the theory. However, because :v: never explicitly said "The Shivans came about like _____," then that theory could also be wrong.
My point is nobody can say "Hey you're taking stuff out of your ass with the whole Shivans were created theory" because no one is. I'm not saying that the theory is right or wrong, but it's a perfectly legitimate theory none the less.
Hmmm, I guess a good response would be, name one indication that the Shivans were self upgraded or evolved naturally. We have just as much evidence for either way, namely absolutely not a god damn thing.
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Karajorma, the great FS2 master of knowledge! I am surprised at you! Here's a quote directly from the tech room regarding the Shivans.
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity.
Quote the whole thing next time :D
Physically, the Shivans have multiple, compound eyes and five legs with claw-like manipulators. Their insect-like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiognomy, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology. The integrated plasma weapon also exhibits properties of an organic-artificial fusion. The weapon may be a kind of focusing device powered by the energy of the being itself, though this point is the subject of heated controversy.
The use of the word original is interesting. A designed creature would not have an original form. Maybe I'm reading too much into that particular word. Then again maybe not :)
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity. Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the GTI's Hades rebellion in 2335. The results of these studies remain highly classified.
But this is where it gets very interesting. If the research on Shivan specimens is classified what would conclusions based on that research be doing in public? I think that this sentence is showing how :v: are messing with us. The statements about the shivans being designed are probably from a source which doesn't have access to the GTI reports. i.e someone who knows as much about the Shivans as we do :p
Notice the comment about citing as evidence. Who would be citing that? Certainly not the scientists who were actually studying the Shivans. They'd be prevented from talking about them. Again we're probably talking about people who didn't actually study the Shivans are who are working on 2nd or third hand evidence.
Of course, this doesn't mean that the Shivans were constructed, and when I mean constructed, I mean they were "created by other beings," not that they come off an assembly line. However, it does mean that canon supports the theory, and to say that they might have been created is just as valid as saying the might not have been.
Just because something is conjecture doesn't mean it can't be correct. I never said that the Shivans couldn't be a race created by someone else. My point was that there is no reason whatsoever to assume that the creator (assuming that there was one) couldn't be the Shivans themselves.
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Just because something is conjecture doesn't mean it can't be correct. I never said that the Shivans couldn't be a race created by someone else. My point was that there is no reason whatsoever to assume that the creator (assuming that there was one) couldn't be the Shivans themselves.
Yes, right, um, I think we're actually arguing the same thing here. I'm not going to say whether they were created or self-upgraded or naturally evolved because I really don't know. So, I'm not going to include either possibility in any of my theories of Shivan design philosophy or ship design, either. Which is what I guess you're trying to say as well. Either way I don't think it'll make a difference. Whether they need pressurized compartments or not, I would think that species, including Terrans and Vasudans, who've had some experience with space warfare would design their ships with systems or procedures to handle depressurization scenarioes, just as today's navies have systems and procedures in place to handle multiple compartment flooding scenarioes and the like.
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I believe that there is much more that is understood about the shivans than we are led to believe. I look to Dr. (Hargrove's?) report on the Knossos and why they think it isn't shivan in origin as evidence that they understand more about the Shivans than we are led to believe.
I know I'm grasping at some pretty short straws but I believe that the argument can be made.
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I believe that there is much more that is understood about the shivans than we are led to believe. I look to Dr. (Hargrove's?) report on the Knossos and why they think it isn't shivan in origin as evidence that they understand more about the Shivans than we are led to believe.
I know I'm grasping at some pretty short straws but I believe that the argument can be made.
Dunno; for all you know the report read
Dear GTVA Command
Having extensively studied the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis, we have established it is not red and is, in fact, a sort of blue-ey-greeny-gray. We have therefore concluded it is not Shivan.
Yours sincerely
Dr. Hargrove BSc MSc MD Phd POS GTVA HLP BLAHBLAH
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Dear GTVA Command
Having extensively studied the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis, we have established it is not red and is, in fact, a sort of blue-ey-greeny-gray. We have therefore concluded it is not Shivan.
Yours sincerely
Dr. Hargrove BSc MSc MD Phd POS GTVA HLP BLAHBLAH
ROFL!!!!
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Wasn't there an exceprt of the report?
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Yes there was, but all it said, AFIACR is that they said it's clearly not of Shivan origin. Well, duh! It's not red and doesn't have spiny insectoid appendage-looking thingies, LOL.
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Mystery of the Trinity
Start sm1-05.fsm
COMMAND BRIEFING 1
Research Task Force
With the Gamma Draconis system secure, a task force of Terran and Vasudan scientists is now examining the subspace portal. At this point, the scientists have ruled out the possibility the device is of Shivan origin.
Dr. Mina Hargrove, leader of the research team, has issued a report of its preliminary findings. An excerpt of this report follows.
COMMAND BRIEFING 2
Dr. Hargrove, Task Force Preliminary Findings (Excerpt)
The subspace portal is unlike any Shivan construction we have yet encountered. Though Shivans demonstrate considerable diversity as a species, all Shivan technology possesses certain distinctive properties. None is present in the subspace device, which means we must look elsewhere for the portal's origin. We do know that the device is very, very old, on the order of several thousand years.
COMMAND BRIEFING 3
Subspace Vortices
The field generated by the interlocking movement of the portal's components creates a subspace vortex, connecting one part of the universe to another.Dr. Hargrove theorizes that whoever built this device may have used it to stabilize a jump node on the verge of collapse.
If Dr. Hargrove is correct, this technology is a tremendous discovery.
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Shivan 'writing'?...
>.>
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Moderator! Moderator! No, just kidding, it's funny, but not my kind of humor... :wtf:
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If the Shivans aren't a race so much as a single entity then they wouldn't need a written language. In fact they probably wouldn't even understand the concept of language. The same goes for most other kinds of hive or group minds.
The results of Bosch's use of the ETAK to send messages to them does show that they have a language.
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Merely "communicating" with them is not indicative of a unified formal language.
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Merely "communicating" with them is not indicative of a unified formal language.
Then explain how he was able to communicate with them. In order to communicate, you need to have some sort of language.
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Depends on how you'd read a quantum pulse I guess. I wonder if quantum pulses aren't a sort of... concentrated telepathy? No, that's stupid. Been reading Ender's Game too much...
I guess I suppose it depends on how you define "language"...
Relevant definition from Dictionary: a systematic means of communicating ideas or feelings by the use of conventionalized signs, sounds, gestures, or marks having understood meanings
Hmmm... I don't see quantum pulses listed in there... :D
Although maybe a pulse could be a "sign". :doubt:
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Saying that Shivans communicate via quantum pulses is just a damn difficult and cool sounding way to say that they use (most likely) electromagnetic waves (ie. radio waves) for communication. That's what quantum pulses are... :nervous:
It's completely possible that a radio transmitter/receiver organ could develope perfectly naturally via natural selection. Considering that for example the electric eel already has one, called spark transmitter, and electricity has definitely an *important* role in nervous system.
After all, a simplest possible transmitter is an on/off circuit. It can be used to transmit pulse when the current is applied, and another pulse when the circuit is killed. Simplest possible receiver is a little more complicated, as it demands an antenna of some kind, a capacitor, a coil and something that can analyze the changing current flowing in the circuit. We earthlings either convert analog signal directly to voice or picture via modulation technologies, or transmit digital information and use computer to analyze it, like on digital TV/Radio.
By the way, a fast digital spark transmitter sends pulses of EM-radiation on almost all radio frequencies... That would fit very well on the Shivan comm messages heard in some rare missions, as they are heard as sporadic static. Even so, I would say that either the Shivans have also another, more secretive means of communication, since that kind of communication is heard only quite rarely... other possibility is that they don't keep contact during battles, but that's unlikely. ;7
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I think we're reading too much into it. If aliens were to analyze our method of communication, they'd conclude that we communicate through radio waves. If they were like you, they'd start formulating theories on how humans evolved radio transmitters and recievers into their bodies naturally, or if they were somehow spliced into our bodies. None of this is true. We use machinery to communicate over either long distances, or through medium that our natural form of communication is impossible, like the vacuum of space. What we're seeing with ETAK I think is exactly that, not the form of communication that Shivans communicate naturally, but instead the way they communicate over long distances or through the vacuum of space.
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STOP BLATANTLY IGNORING THE ANTHROPOMORPHIC FALLACY AND STOP BLINDLY CALLING SHIVANS A 'HIVE MIND' SYSTEM WHEN THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN EITHER DIRECTION.
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Who the hell are you talking to Hippo? No one on this thread has said that the Shivans are definitely a hive mind. Give yourself 5 minutes to let the red mist clear from your eyes and try actually reading the thread before responding to it.
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"We are the Shivans. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technical distinctiveness to Carl's stomach. Your culture will adapt to service his hunger. Resistance is futile."
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"We are the Shivans. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technical distinctiveness to Carl's stomach. Your culture will adapt to service his hunger. Resistance is futile."
:wakka:
anyway, they probably either communicate telepathically, or use some sort of eletrical pulse to communicate. Either way, Bosh (was it Bosh? Anyway) was able to communicate with them. Peace is thus theoretically possible.
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It was already technically possible. You don't have to talk to someone to get them to leave you alone; a fist in the face can work too.
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Again, I think you're reading way too much into it (why doesn't anybody read my posts?). Bosch only figured out the technology that the Shivans use to communicate through large distances or through a vacuum. Humans do this using radio waves, but that doesn't mean we evolved to have radio transcievers integrated into our skulls somewhere. Instead we use a technology we call radios to convert sound waves into radio waves, and then convert those radio waves back into sound waves that we can understand. The ETAK project was a study in Shivan technology, not Shivan biology. Bosch learned the technology the Shivans ships use to relay messages to one another, not the way two shivans, standing next to eachother in their natural environment, would talk to eachother.
We have no idea whether the Shivans understood wtf Bosch said, or if Bosch himself understood wtf the Shivans were saying, but he probably piqued their interest because he found out how Shivans relay messages from one ship to another. Maybe they were interested because no one had ever interfered with their communications before, or maybe because they wanted to kill him before the GTVA could adapt the technology and use it to decipher what the messages between their ships mean, thusly giving GTVA a tactical advantage in combat, or maybe, if the Shivans so have some sort of hive mind, the messages that Bosch was sending interfered with their ability to think, and wanted to shut him the f up as quickly as possible, and capture him to figure out how he "got inside their heads".
Edit: Bosch did use info from the defunct GTI project involving the study of live Shivan specimans, but we don't know how the "quantum pulses" are related to the way two Shivans might communicate normally. The quantum pulses are used by Shivan ships to transmit messages to one another, exactly what these messages sound like to "Shivan ears" once they are demodulated we don't know. They could communicate in the visible light spectrum, or with infra-red, or with something else. However, the quantum pulse part of the ETAK project is definately not how Shivans communicate conversationally, but how messages are transmitted over normal space amongst the Shivan fleet. Messages over subspace are probably transmitted via those "comm nodes" you see in "Into the Lion's Den," much like how the GTVA uses relay stations, in the form of GTSC Faustus installations.
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We have no idea whether the Shivans understood wtf Bosch said, or if Bosch himself understood wtf the Shivans were saying,
"As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the Shivan transports." He got through to them, and they apparently got through to him; at least clearly enough that it was understood about the transports.
Edit: Bosch did use info from the defunct GTI project involving the study of live Shivan specimans, but we don't know how the "quantum pulses" are related to the way two Shivans might communicate normally.
Even if they do communicate that way normally, it may not be a natural method of communication. The Shivans the GTVA has encountered are (insofar as we know) all cyberneticized, so what capablities and phyisology they show may not have any bearing on the natural capablities and physiology of an unaugmented Shivan.
In essence, we have absolutely no way of knowing what a regular unaugmented Shivan can do, save that it is probably less somehow then what an augmented one is capable of. Otherwise there would be no need for such augmentation.
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Right, so we know that Bosch was able to communicate with them some way, but I don't think Shivans normally talk to eachother using "quantum pulses" anymore than I talk to my wife using radio waves. I talk to her by vibrating my voice box which vibrates at certain frequencies and makes different sounds depending on the shape of my mouth, which she interperets using her ear. Radios turn the sound my voice makes, and modulates it on radio frequencies, transmits it, is recieved by another radio, which demodulates it, converting the radio waves into audio waves that someone else's ear interperates as sound. I think the quantum pulses are what the Shivans use to modulate whatever method they use to communicate naturally into a medium that can travel long distances and through the vacuum of space. I don't think in the least bit that Shivans actually talk to each other "conversationally" using quantum pulses.
Edit: In other words, the ETAK project gives us no insight into how the Shivans communicate naturally. Is it possible the Shivans have a biological space suit that transmits and recieves quantum pulses? Yes, but not likely. It would take enourmous energy for a biological being to have that sort of energy stored inside of them. Besides, how can you get biological tissue to transmit quantum pulses? It doesn't make sense, more likely quantum pulses is a result of Shivan technology, not Shivan biology. So the ETAK project doesn't tell us a thing about how the Shivans communicate naturally. It doesn't tell us if they have a hive mind, if they use telepathy, if the use sound or light waves, or if they use something else to communicate in a natural setting. The ETAK project ONLY tells us that they use quantum pulses to transmit messages between ships, nothing else.