Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: eagleclaw on November 02, 2006, 12:43:31 pm
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Which do you perfer?
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Neither; they're both gargantuan wastes of money.
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holographic storage
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Betamax.
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Ask the question next year after people actually have them.
Preferring one of the other right now is like asking which is better, the PS4 or the Xbox1280.
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Point taken.
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Or the Nintendo Tinkle.
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Badoom tsh.
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Really not a matter of preference. They perform exactly the same, it's just that Blu-Ray has higher capacity, therefore video can be displayed at a higher bit rate or just simply have longer play.
It's not really like asking if PS4 or Xbox 1280 are better, it's more like asking if SVCD or DVD is the better one.
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That's an unfair comparison, they're generations apart.
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HD DVD. Just so that I can laugh as every single PS3 becomes partially obsolete.
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The storage of Blu-Ray really doesn't help do anything other than store more crap on the DVD. Bit rate is dependent on how quickly the player can read from the disk, not how big the disk is. The players themselves differ more in software than hardware (the laser emitter is the same) and I really think Sony's DRM and their holier-than-thou attitude will do them in.
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holographic storage
PCD and Tapestry Media seem promising.
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HD DVD, because I hate sony >..>;
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Sony is just a part of the association that developed the Blu-Ray, this thread isn't PS3 vs XBox 360. It sounds like if hating one of the companies involved in the developement of the HD DVD would be a reason enough to hate the whole product.
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Really not a matter of preference. They perform exactly the same, it's just that Blu-Ray has higher capacity, therefore video can be displayed at a higher bit rate or just simply have longer play.
It's not really like asking if PS4 or Xbox 1280 are better, it's more like asking if SVCD or DVD is the better one.
Incorrect. HD-DVD uses VC1 while Blu-Ray uses Mpg2. VC1 is a much higher quality codec, therefore HD-DVD movies currently outperform their Blu-Ray counterparts.
Upscaling FTW here.
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False, just the first ones used MPEG-2, currently Blu-Ray supports MPEG-2, SMPTE VC-1 and H.264/AVC, this last one is part of MPEG-4.
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Sony is just a part of the association that developed the Blu-Ray, this thread isn't PS3 vs XBox 360. It sounds like if hating one of the companies involved in the developement of the HD DVD would be a reason enough to hate the whole product.
It's not Sony vs. MS or Sony vs. anyone in particular. The whole organization that developed blu-ray is to blame. It's later, more expensive, and at best equal quality than HD-DVD and yet they still consider it to be the new best thing ever. Despite the fact that neither format currently offers enough selection over standard DVDs to justify buying a new, grossly overpriced first gen player. Don't support format wars, regardless of who's involved.
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EVD and FVD tried to become an inexpensive improvement over DVD, however they didn't make out of China and Taiwan respectively.
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wait... seriously?
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The EVD (Enhanced) uses VP5 and VP6 as the video codec, EVD is basically a DVD, it has same capacity for storage, however the codecs are better than MPEG-2, and it has a good adventage, an EVD can be read from any computer DVD drive. It is believed the developement on this format is abandoned due to money and licensing issues.
The FVD (Forward) can store 5.4 GB, and allows up to 3 layers, that's 15 GB and it uses WMV9 as the video codec.
Both formats support HDTV, depending on the video or movie duration.
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Huh, alright then. The E and F just followed too conveniently after D, I thought you were joking.
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While both are incredible wastes of money at this point I'll tenatively say that the HD-DVD will probably be the winning format. Just as well supported and backwards compatible. Customers who have to ask "what do you mean that my old DVD collection is worthless now with the $1000 player I just bought" are not going to be terribly pleased. We all just jumped on the DVD bandwagon a few years ago...I can't see switching for a while.
Allot of customers can't see the big difference between them either. I can...and most of us here probably can...but the average joe. If either format is going to fly....it'll be HD-DVD in my best bet. Sony is going to make the best try for it but I think they are in serious trouble on so many fronts right now from format wars, to the rootkit issue from last year, the PS3 debacle in the making...not sure whats going to happen.
The real shame of it is that Sony used to be an awesome company and still puts out some good stuff in some departments. But their image has shifted...they have a bad attitude and horrible customer experience. The other thing is that I hope PS3 does succeed or at least keeps Microsoft on their toes... otherwise we'll get to see MS in another monopoly. I love my X-Box but it was only made good because they had to fight the other consoles.
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Heh.. What you're saying then is that just like Betamax, Sony's attempt at pushing a new format out to the public will fail yet again. Maybe they'll learn this time that the public DOES know what's possible, when given an alternative.
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Betamax, Minidisk, bluRay... its a trend, y'see.
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Yes, for the much better standard to fail due to the much higher price.
You get what you pay for, but most people are willing to pay for 2nd best.
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The EVD (Enhanced) uses VP5 and VP6 as the video codec, EVD is basically a DVD, it has same capacity for storage, however the codecs are better than MPEG-2, and it has a good adventage, an EVD can be read from any computer DVD drive. It is believed the developement on this format is abandoned due to money and licensing issues.
The FVD (Forward) can store 5.4 GB, and allows up to 3 layers, that's 15 GB and it uses WMV9 as the video codec.
Both formats support HDTV, depending on the video or movie duration.
See this is why DVD players need to be smarter, and have easier firmware upgrade procedures.
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Really not a matter of preference. They perform exactly the same, it's just that Blu-Ray has higher capacity, therefore video can be displayed at a higher bit rate or just simply have longer play.
It's not really like asking if PS4 or Xbox 1280 are better, it's more like asking if SVCD or DVD is the better one.
Incorrect. HD-DVD uses VC1 while Blu-Ray uses Mpg2. VC1 is a much higher quality codec, therefore HD-DVD movies currently outperform their Blu-Ray counterparts.
Upscaling FTW here.
You really need to learn how to read. Blu-Ray uses the exact same codecs that the HD-DVD uses. That includes VC1. If you don't know what you're talking about, you should really learn how to keep your mouth shut. Both of the formats use the same video compression techniques.
While both are incredible wastes of money at this point I'll tenatively say that the HD-DVD will probably be the winning format. Just as well supported and backwards compatible. Customers who have to ask "what do you mean that my old DVD collection is worthless now with the $1000 player I just bought" are not going to be terribly pleased. We all just jumped on the DVD bandwagon a few years ago...I can't see switching for a while.
Err, you do realize both players are backwards compatible, right?
The storage of Blu-Ray really doesn't help do anything other than store more crap on the DVD. Bit rate is dependent on how quickly the player can read from the disk, not how big the disk is. The players themselves differ more in software than hardware (the laser emitter is the same) and I really think Sony's DRM and their holier-than-thou attitude will do them in.
Yes, that's true, but the length of the video has to be considered when you calculate the bit rate. Even if the peak is dependent on how quickly the player can read from the disk, the fact remains that with more storage, you can get a longer video to reach that peak, while the HD-DVD would have to sacrifice quality for minutes/hours. When you sacrifice quality, the size of the video file goes down and it can then fit onto a format. At least that's the case with current encoding capabilities regarding the DVD. I doubt much will change on that front.
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Not initially they didn't. Though it does appear the Blu Ray is now using the superior VC1 codec.
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If any of you look some posts back you may find I already addressed that.
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If any of you look some posts back you may find I already addressed that.
I believe the whole debate can be summarised as;
a) PS3 uses Blu Ray. HD-DVD is Blu-Rays primary competitor and thus adopted by MS as an optional addon to the Xbox360
b) Deepblue likes HD-DVD, BlackDove likes Blu Ray.
There may or may not be a connection between a) and b)
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Yes, the only problem is that I like Blu-Ray for a specific reason. The fact that it has more storage and therefore you can do more stuff with it.
Anyone who prefers the HD-DVD is either;
a) Uneducated in using the formats, so they don't really know the up and down sides
b) An employee of the HD-DVD exclusive supporters, because the whole reason HD-DVD exists is because if you want to manufacture Blu-Ray or a better disc than Blu-Ray, you have to make new factories, because the old line production doesn't work. Old factories work just fine for making HD-DVD.
c) Just simply be a corporate shill for any HD-DVD exclusive corporation.
If the HD-DVD was in fact, cheaper than Blu-Ray, which was the whole god damn purpose of refusing to build new factories - cut down costs of production and offer the format at a reasonable price, then you'd have something to argue. But the Blu-Ray format pricing is identical to the HD-DVD one. There really is no argument to prefer the HD_DVD.
Unless you count the "BETAMAX" argument. That's all well and good, and there is a possibility it may really come true in the future, but if your primary instinct in a debate is fortune telling, then your opinion is more or less invalidated from the start.
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holographic storage
PCD and Tapestry Media seem promising.
:yes:
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Really not a matter of preference. They perform exactly the same, it's just that Blu-Ray has higher capacity, therefore video can be displayed at a higher bit rate or just simply have longer play.
It's not really like asking if PS4 or Xbox 1280 are better, it's more like asking if SVCD or DVD is the better one.
Incorrect. HD-DVD uses VC1 while Blu-Ray uses Mpg2. VC1 is a much higher quality codec, therefore HD-DVD movies currently outperform their Blu-Ray counterparts.
Upscaling FTW here.
You really need to learn how to read. Blu-Ray uses the exact same codecs that the HD-DVD uses. That includes VC1. If you don't know what you're talking about, you should really learn how to keep your mouth shut. Both of the formats use the same video compression techniques.
While both are incredible wastes of money at this point I'll tenatively say that the HD-DVD will probably be the winning format. Just as well supported and backwards compatible. Customers who have to ask "what do you mean that my old DVD collection is worthless now with the $1000 player I just bought" are not going to be terribly pleased. We all just jumped on the DVD bandwagon a few years ago...I can't see switching for a while.
Err, you do realize both players are backwards compatible, right?
The storage of Blu-Ray really doesn't help do anything other than store more crap on the DVD. Bit rate is dependent on how quickly the player can read from the disk, not how big the disk is. The players themselves differ more in software than hardware (the laser emitter is the same) and I really think Sony's DRM and their holier-than-thou attitude will do them in.
Yes, that's true, but the length of the video has to be considered when you calculate the bit rate. Even if the peak is dependent on how quickly the player can read from the disk, the fact remains that with more storage, you can get a longer video to reach that peak, while the HD-DVD would have to sacrifice quality for minutes/hours. When you sacrifice quality, the size of the video file goes down and it can then fit onto a format. At least that's the case with current encoding capabilities regarding the DVD. I doubt much will change on that front.
Mmmmm....something must have changed because up until a few months ago I was reading constantly that Blu-ray was not backwards compatible. I still think the whole thing is moronic...I was hoping and crossing my fingers that the industry could come up with one standard. But they couldn't...its very disappointing.
Blu-ray with some of that I perceive to be benefits of HD-DVD plus wide ranging support would be the best case scenario. Instead...split down the middle. Even if Blu-ray is the superior technology...I'm waiting for the dust to settle and everyone to get properly on board.
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It's not moronic.
It's parasites fighting over who gets the royalties.
Might be helpful to know this.
Here's the background:
Philips's development of the Laserdisc in 1969 yielded many of the technologies Sony carried over and adopted when they partnered with Philips to create a little something called the CD way back in '79. Both companies were hard at work together once again in the early 1990s on a new high-density disc called the MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD—original name, guys), but their format was eventually more or less abandoned in favor of Toshiba's competing Super Density Disc (SD), which had the vast majority of backers at the time, such as Hitachi, Matsu****a (Panasonic), Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Thomson, and Time Warner.
The two factions cut a deal, brokered by IBM president Lou Gerstner, on a new format: DVD. Toshiba wound up on top after the dust settled in 1995/1996, and Sony and Philips, who weren't cut in on the standard (and royalties) nearly as much as they'd have liked, immediately started work on a next gen system. The Professional Disc for DATA (aka PDD or ProDATA), which was based on an optical disc system Sony had already been developing in the side, would eventually become the Blu-ray disc. Toshiba, not to be outdone by the pair, also started work on a next gen system, the Advanced Optical Disc, which eventually evolved into the HD DVD. After thirty-five years of optical audio/video disc development we're back where we were years ago: two money-grubbing factions fighting each other and threatening to wreak havoc on the consumer electronics industry. Apparently history really does repeat itself.
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Philips and Sony introduced the first CD-ROM drive to computers, guess which one was, a MSX.
Mmmmm....something must have changed because up until a few months ago I was reading constantly that Blu-ray was not backwards compatible. I still think the whole thing is moronic...I was hoping and crossing my fingers that the industry could come up with one standard. But they couldn't...its very disappointing.
Blu-ray with some of that I perceive to be benefits of HD-DVD plus wide ranging support would be the best case scenario. Instead...split down the middle. Even if Blu-ray is the superior technology...I'm waiting for the dust to settle and everyone to get properly on board.
There is no really such thing as an unified format, everyone just chooses the one that fits best, consoles or platforms are no exeption, there are plenty of dedicated formats (If needed I can cite the formats), I for example would expect to see the red laser optical discs push forward in terms of storage, the VMD for example is supposed to be a low cost solution, it stores from 20 GB to 100 GB even using red laser technology, that's more than a HD DVD, and if they even get to implement blue laser it would probabily surpass the Blu-Ray, but that's speculative.
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Don't you mean 20 to 50?
Dual Layered Blu-Ray is 50.
The next standard should logically, in about ten years time, be HVD, though I guess that's overkill for consumers, and would only be an "option".
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From the official site:
VMD is precisely the same size and thickness as DVD. While DVD technology utilizes two layers of a disc, VMD technology has conceived multi-layering, whereby the storage capacity is dramatically increased. Each additional layer adds approximately up to 5 GB of memory over a standard DVD disc. VMD provides the ability to place up to 20 layers on a single disc with no quality loss in the content stored. This means capacity to record 100 GB or more.
http://www.nmeinc.com/technology.htm
This is the theoric limit, not that it will be used or even needed, but in the future:
HD DVD (Max capacity): 90 GB, Double Sided, 3 Layers
Blu-Ray (Max capacity): 200 GB: Single Sided, 6 Layers
200 GB: Double Sided, 4 Layers
VMD (Max capacity): 100 GB, Single Sided, 20 Layers
DVD-18 can reach up to 15.9 GB, they're usually refered as Double Sided Dual Layer, but is too long...
The next standard should logically, in about ten years time, be HVD, though I guess that's overkill for consumers, and would only be an "option".
Only if UHVD gets slowly implemented by the same time, prices are other matter, I can't really think of any other use which could need such massive memory storage, at least not a standard one.
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Yeah I know, but two companies are already working on "lite" versions, so those are the ones I suppose would be marketed to consumers.
The general idea I think being that you'd have one re-rewritable HVD "lite" which you would just add **** to. Movies can always be downloaded and stored on it or erased, and the same would go for games. Every other release, would be some form of Blu-Ray.
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I don't think anyone can make any predictions about what's going to happen with this one until PS3 and XBox HDDVD addon sales figures and general reception are known. Very few people are going to shell out for a brand new Blu Ray or HD DVD player until the format war is settled - however, a lot of people are going to shell out or the PS3 and get a blu ray player for free. Moreover, many of these people will be the tech head early adopters who would have cast a vote in the format war anyway - if most or even some choose not to bother buying a separate player, then that's a tacit vote for Blu Ray. The number represented by that "a lot" is going to have a massive impact on which format wins. Same case with the XBox 360, but to a considerably lesser extent because the HD DVD pack is, as I understand it, optional. So even if half the people who buy 360s buy the HDDVD Player (A number that I think may be a little high unless they're needed for games) MS is going to have to outsell Sony 2:1 to cancel out the affect of the console market on the next gen DVD player market, and I don't think that'll happen.
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Not to mention that Europe will be seeing the XBox360 long before the PS3 comes out here. That, in itself, will mean that Sony face an uphill battle against a pre-established competitor.
While Blue-Ray seems to have the better range of storage and usage, I fear that it could be in for a pretty rough time. Personally, I'm no big fan of Sony's marketting practice, but then Phillips, who were involved the CD-Rom, were far from angels themselves.
If it were a question of opinion of the companies, I'd be behind HD, if it were a question of the most sensible media to use, I'd be behind Blu-Ray.
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What they should do. In there second generation, is make the player capable to play both. HD and Blu-ray. And call it Blu-HD.
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Heh.. What you're saying then is that just like Betamax, Sony's attempt at pushing a new format out to the public will fail yet again.
yep
Maybe they'll learn this time that the public DOES know what's possible, when given an alternative.
nope
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Wow.. Necro-monger strikes again...
Anyways, that's not going to happen with the combination of the two formats. Both formats were created and copyrighted in competition with each other. Supposedly, this should foster a competitive situation in the market, but it will cause too much confusion to the typical everyday user, and even some of the tech-geeks who want 1080p resolution just cause it's the newest buzzword flying around. What will more likely happen is one format dropping altogether, and the other one reigning king. The only way to get Sony to put HD-DVD tech into thier products is to buy out the HD-DVD spec. Either that, or they'd buy it and shelve it, like Creative did with Aureal A3D tech/nvidia and 3dFX...
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What they should do. In there second generation, is make the player capable to play both. HD and Blu-ray.
Already done in the 1st generation, as announced in October 18:
http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/16136.html
NEC is developing a chip that is capable of reading both formats:
http://news.com.com/NEC+unveils+chip+to+bridge+Blu-rayHD+DVD+divide/2100-1041_3-6124799.html
These companies are trying success by covering all of the market and for popular demmand, I hope they don't go insane about pricing their products...
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Wow.. Necro-monger strikes again...
Anyways, that's not going to happen with the combination of the two formats. Both formats were created and copyrighted in competition with each other. Supposedly, this should foster a competitive situation in the market, but it will cause too much confusion to the typical everyday user, and even some of the tech-geeks who want 1080p resolution just cause it's the newest buzzword flying around. What will more likely happen is one format dropping altogether, and the other one reigning king. The only way to get Sony to put HD-DVD tech into thier products is to buy out the HD-DVD spec. Either that, or they'd buy it and shelve it, like Creative did with Aureal A3D tech/nvidia and 3dFX...
me?
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No. Bill. Haven't you met him? Nice guy.
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You have that title for a reason man.....
So does this mean NEC might be getting into legal hot-water with the two sides? It'd be nice to see a laser read and write all these formats. I'll be impressed when I see a drive that will do everything in one, Writes to CDR-RW, DVDR-RW-DL and BR+HD. More than likely we'll see CD/DVD drives stay the way they are and the High-Def drives might be drives of thier own. For a while, until some genuine genius figures out how to pack all of those instructions into a controller, and a laser so refined it can do all of those formats.
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NEC doesn't seems to limit their developement by standars, they used to develop the NEC PC-9800 series, basically a PC with a 8086 CPU that wasn't compatible with IBM PC standard, even so it managed to be the mainstream PC in Japan.
I would be more afraid by the fact that only Japan could be seen this kind of technology, while the rest of the world would be maintained in an eternal commercial format war with the only purpose of making even more profits.
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lolblu-raylol