Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on November 05, 2006, 10:31:39 pm
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http://science.slashdot.org/science/06/11/05/0840227.shtml
Evolution @ work people.......
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EVOLUTION IS A LIE FROM THE DEVIL!
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EVOLUTION IS A LIE FROM THE DEVIL!
Praise Jesus!
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wow, the original story is on fox news, i'm surprised its even up there.
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That's because only the most vehemently indoctrinated dullards of the world would ignore this for what it is; damn interesting stuff! :yes:
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well from the perspective of someone who doesn't accept evolution this probably won't do anything for them.
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Well **** them, then.
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they'd be all like [poorly done girl voice]oh, well doesn't that mean that they are deevolutioning and why didn't every dolphin in the world have this obvius step twards being human and thus the penicle of God's creation at the same time...[/poorly done girl voice] und ****...
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you can observe evolution if you ever had to put up with a pest infestation. ive never relied on an exterminator, they never get the job done right. anyway after your first two attacks on whatever pest youre killing, they will apear to vaninsh, and by the third wavethe critters will take twice as much poison to kill. no matter the bug or rodent, you will always kill the weakest leaving only the strongest to breed. you get around this by rotating your poisons. they cant all be immune to the same thing.leave as few survivors as possilble, forcing them to inbread helps **** with their gene pool.
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When they start singing so long and thanks for all the fish, call me...
Seriously though, this is very very cool. I wonder what an early Dolphin, or it's land-based predecessor would've looked like.
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When they start singing so long and thanks for all the fish, call me...
Seriously though, this is very very cool. I wonder what an early Dolphin, or it's land-based predecessor would've looked like.
Pakicetus is apparently one of the earliest known cetacean ancestors, due to having a similar ear canal; (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Pakicetus.gif)
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It's a giant ****ing rat. :wtf:
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Just pointing out the obvious possible flaw in this conclusion, as any good creationist would do... How come the dolphin is evolution, while this poor fella (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,43036.0.html) is/was a mutation?
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The part where he died gives the answer away.
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So a mutation that a living being doesn't die from is evolution? Hmm, you're gonna have to try harder to convince me.
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Because this dolphin is a mutation. Nothing more.
The difference here though is what the mutation was. In the case of the chick that's obviously a control gene mutation. The scientists involved in this case don't seem to think the same thing has happened here.
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Just pointing out the obvious possible flaw in this conclusion, as any good creationist would do... How come the dolphin is evolution, while this poor fella (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,43036.0.html) is/was a mutation?
Because that mutation gave no survival or procreational advantage leading to its propagation across a species.
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You're deliberately being think as two short planks Sarnie, don't do that with me.
My point was that in of itself, an individual mutation is not necessarily an evolutionary step - it may be due to outside influences such as unusual NBC exposure, etc, or extreme conditions during mating/gestation. Besides which, evolutionary steps are generally much smaller and discrete.
Now, I don't have the time or interest to pull up page after page of the wiki or google searches to offer you proof that evolution exists or that your God does or doesn't either, so I'll leave that to the more prepared members like aldo (you're up lad). Besides, if you're a creationist you're basing your opinion on religious belief, and nothing I can say will change your mind. ;)
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I love it how everyone seems to be gladly jumping into the train on rails towards another evolution debate... :p
Do we know for sure that the four-legged chick was caused by a mutation in a control gene?
It could've been simple conjoined twins.
Essentially, evolution cosists of mutations. There are harmful, neutral and useful mutations. Harmful mutations don't generally get a chance to spread in population, while useful mutations give a better chance to stay alive and procreate. Neutral mutations just hang along, and they usually aren't noticed until they become either harmful or useful.
If the chick was a mutation, it was arguably a harmful one - hence it died away.
Dolphin having extra pair of fins could be either useful or neutral mutation. Most likely it was neutral for the dolphin - the fact that he or she was caught is more related to chance.
All mutations are part of evolution process. Evolution process doesn't actually touch individuals - individuals don't evolve, the species does.
By the way. Statistically, it is extremely unlikely that the only four-finned dolphin in the world was caught. There are others most likely like this one. And I don't think it's as much as a mutation bringing out old traits. It's more like the fact that dolphins might have lost their "legs" later than is generally thought. Perhaps (read: likely) there is a part in dolphin population that still has two extra fins.
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IMO the issue as to whether the chicken was a mutation is irrelevant, it's more important to highlight the importance of selection in this. Too often people - thanks to the creationist/ID misinformation campaigns - seem to make the mistake of viewing evolution as directed or random, when in reality it's mutation that is random, and evolution is deterministic (natural and sexual selection).
It's worth noting that, IIRC, there tends to be a lot of 'junk' DNA in all animals; essentially inactive (or at least not active in a detected way) DNA strands which often include or indicate 'discarded' genes from earlier in the genetic evolution of the species (I think I have a magazine article on this at home, which I'll try and dig out after work) - it's most likely, it seems, that in this case the dolphin had a mutation which re-asserted/re-built the recessed/corrupted DNA for the additional fins.
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Just pointing out the obvious possible flaw in this conclusion, as any good creationist would do... How come the dolphin is evolution, while this poor fella (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,43036.0.html) is/was a mutation?
That chick was almost certainly not a mutation, but some sort of conjoined twins. Consider the pic - the chicken is obviously not a stable organism - look at the leg alignement mainly, and the fact that it died as an infant. The dolphin however is bilaterally symmetrical, has grown to what looks like an adult or near adult stage and generally has the appearance of a competent, survivable organism.
Moreover, the dolphin had limbs in that area of its body fairly recently along its evolutionary timescale - within the last 15 million or so years. There hasn't been a four legged bird ancestor in much, much longer - at least 200 million years, and I'd probably be able to push it back considerably further than that if I did any more research than looking up "thereopod" on wikipedia- and I very, very much doubt that there has ever been an organism in any evolutionary line with multiple anuses - certainly not anything from the chordate line anyway, so we're talking well over 500 million years (and even then you'd probably not find anything with more than one true anus).
By the way. Statistically, it is extremely unlikely that the only four-finned dolphin in the world was caught. There are others most likely like this one. And I don't think it's as much as a mutation bringing out old traits. It's more like the fact that dolphins might have lost their "legs" later than is generally thought. Perhaps (read: likely) there is a part in dolphin population that still has two extra fins.
Statistically unlikely, yes, but don't read too much into that. The fossil record agrees with around 2000 years of biological and pseudo biological observation. Moreover, any species or race of dolphin with two fins back there would be disadvantaged enough to be outcompeted by non rear finned dolphins pretty quickly (since they break the nice neat hydrodynamic shape). This one probably survived because it was born into a social pod of normally formed dolphins (in much the same way people with disadvantageous mutations like downs syndrome survive because they're propped up by the social conventions of human society) but an entire pod of these things would not survive fending on their own - they'd simply be outcompeted.
Besides, they don't need to have had a particularly recent loss to have these kinds of regressions - it just takes a slight genetic mistake to trigger old DNA (or suppress it in the first place), but it takes millions upon millions of years to get rid of it entirely - as Aldo says, all organisms carry around a lot of useless DNA in exactly the same way. It does degrade over time, which is why you don't see humans sprouting, say, reptillian scales. but 15 million years isn't all that long on an evolutionary timescale - and, at the end of the day this discovery does prove that the DNA for rebuilding the fins hasn't degrarded yet.
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Palm sized fins = legs?
Bah. i wanted freakioshly deformed twisted limbs................
Evolution :no: :p
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Bah. i wanted freakioshly deformed twisted limbs................
Okay... mental image: A dolphin sprouting long, strong limbs instead of its main fins, two others at the rear end, and a fifth on formed from it's tails.
Add red and black colour scheme. Multiple eyes and a beam cannon at the forehead.
So long, and thanks for all the fish...
By the way, I see you have received a title... kind of. :drevil:
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Bah..............I didn't notice.
Still it beats some of the more "imaginitive ones"
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Like BlackWolf's title? ;)
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*Looks at Blackwolfs title*
:nervous:...............................I hazard to check that link but :lol: still.
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Just pointing out the obvious possible flaw in this conclusion, as any good creationist would do... How come the dolphin is evolution, while this poor fella (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,43036.0.html) is/was a mutation?
Because that mutation gave no survival or procreational advantage leading to its propagation across a species.
In that case humanity isn't evolving.
There is no filter to our procreation....
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A severely handicapped individual is less likely to reproduce in our society than an able bodied one - even if they are helped to survive. There's your filter.
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Just pointing out the obvious possible flaw in this conclusion, as any good creationist would do... How come the dolphin is evolution, while this poor fella (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,43036.0.html) is/was a mutation?
Because that mutation gave no survival or procreational advantage leading to its propagation across a species.
In that case humanity isn't evolving.
There is no filter to our procreation....
Yes there is; a simple consideration of sexual selection mechanics in modern society indicates the direction of our evolution; and that's excluding the third world and other situations where there isn't sufficient healthcare.
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Not to mention that a few hundred years of equal-opportunity reproduction isn't exactly going to have a massive effect on a million-year process.
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Not to mention that a few hundred years of equal-opportunity reproduction isn't exactly going to have a massive effect on a million-year process.
It's not equal opportunity, though.
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But that was what TrashMan was implying.
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No he wasn't, Helping the less able and thinking "My she is a hotty, with her no arms and withered legs, Ohhhh yes she is :lust:" are two different things........
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No he wasn't, Helping the less able and thinking "My she is a hotty, with her no arms and withered legs, Ohhhh yes she is :lust:" are two different things........
Dammit, I was trying to forget about the friggin' amputee porn. Thanks a lot.
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Gahhh stop doing that.......... :(
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No he wasn't, Helping the less able and thinking "My she is a hotty, with her no arms and withered legs, Ohhhh yes she is :lust:" are two different things........
Dammit, I was trying to forget about the friggin' amputee porn. Thanks a lot.
You shouldn't try.
Never forget.
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It depends largely on the degree of the mutation. Most animals have a whole batch of DNA which is dormant, they are left in place from earlier stages of evolution and can, under the right conditions, become active again. This is why I hate it when people call stuff 'Junk DNA', it's not 'Junk', it just a mixture of dormant stuff and bits we don't understand.
When you get a big mutation, sometimes the organism is incapable of dealing with the degree of it and the system fails. A lot of 'Freaks' in Victorian times were mutations at extreme levels.
If you consider that every single one of us is a mutant to one degree or another, that it is, in fact, the engine that drives evolution, then I'm frankly surprised that these things don't turn up more. Or possibly they turn up more, but don't get reported.
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Mandatory reference when speaking of limbs, dolphins, and general sea populace.
(http://users.adelphia.net/~33h3q/shark.jpg)
Evolution :yes:
Okay, back to your topic.
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http://science.slashdot.org/science/06/11/05/0840227.shtml
Evolution @ work people.......
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a8/MrsGarrison.png)
Oh wow! Great, it's a retarded fish frog!
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It depends largely on the degree of the mutation. Most animals have a whole batch of DNA which is dormant, they are left in place from earlier stages of evolution and can, under the right conditions, become active again. This is why I hate it when people call stuff 'Junk DNA', it's not 'Junk', it just a mixture of dormant stuff and bits we don't understand.
When you get a big mutation, sometimes the organism is incapable of dealing with the degree of it and the system fails. A lot of 'Freaks' in Victorian times were mutations at extreme levels.
If you consider that every single one of us is a mutant to one degree or another, that it is, in fact, the engine that drives evolution, then I'm frankly surprised that these things don't turn up more. Or possibly they turn up more, but don't get reported.
In human DNA, there are something like 19,000 'psuedogenes' (genes which are incapable of creating proteins due to errors/corruption) identified, and 21,000 (estimated) protein coding genes, so it's quite possible we have more 'junk' than actual working DNA. This is also a good indicator of evolution; firstly there's no natural selection on unexpressed pseudogenes, so you can more reliably estimate the rate of mutation (especially as many pseudogenes are actually corrupted copies of expressed genes). Secondly, some of these genes crop up in other animals in their functional form; disabled olafactory (pseudo)genes from humans are found - expressed - in mice, for example.
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Yup, that's why Frogs have a lot more complex DNA than humans do, Mammals, by growing their young in their womb and having warm blood, eliminated a massive amount of environmental problems that tadpoles have. The chances are that somewhere inside us we have 'instructions' on how to change our blood chemistry in case we were growing up in salty water etc.
But personally, I still don't like to think of it as 'junk', makes it sound like it's something that can be simply thrown away ;)
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After reading this, the human body (and any other animal's body) reminds me of a badly maintained computer that seriously needs its registry cleaned up :D
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LOL It's a pretty close analogy actually, except for the fact that it's easier to get AOL out of DNA ;)
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well from the perspective of someone who doesn't accept evolution this probably won't do anything for them.
Thats because its still a dolphin! It hasnt turned into a pineapple or even a chiken or given birth to a human! hahahahaha YOU EVOLUTIONISTS LIBERAL ATHEISTS ARE SO STUPID. LOLZ.ZZ.Z
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http://science.slashdot.org/science/06/11/05/0840227.shtml
Evolution @ work people.......
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a8/MrsGarrison.png
Oh wow! Great, it's a retarded fish frog!
:lol: :lol: That's exactly what I was thinking. :lol: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bvZjaZrw-Cc