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Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Kieve on November 06, 2006, 01:00:02 am

Title: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 06, 2006, 01:00:02 am: "Tigris" - Light Recon craft
Exceptional maneuverability and speed, but poorly armored. Its thin profile makes targeting difficult (add to that its lightning-quick responsiveness) but the designers were unable to provide more than basic protection, leaving it vulnerable to heavy fire and/or prolonged battle. A reactor focused towards raw speed leaves little energy for weapons/shielding.

So I finally hit an inspiration today (while doing dishes of all things) and managed to crank out a basic mesh. It's currently hovering around 400-some polys right now, since I've chamfered the hell out of it, but I intend to bring that down where I can. I've made a cavity for a cockpit, but I'm still not sure how to work those, so I've left it an empty socket for now... anyways, here she is:

Fore & Aft
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris1.jpg)

Profile
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris2.jpg)

Head-On / Above
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris3.jpg)

Now here's where the glitchiness starts. I've tested it in-game, and the firing points were misbehaving terribly.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris4.jpg)
That's how they "should" operate - but instead they all just seem to blaze forth from the pivot point (0,0,0) with some minor shifts along the Z-axis.
And the missiles are the same deal - up & down, but no side-spread. I tried adding a glow-point for flavor, but the online PCS tutorial is outdated, and doesn't include info on "GLOW" tab (lack of PCS "help" menu aside) - would be on the rear-middle corner of the dorsal fins.

Details:
In testing, the five gunpoints drained the energy reserve in a couple salvos (of course, I was using twin Kaysers, a morning star over the cockpit, and twin Maxims on the wingtips :rolleyes: ). Which fits the bill pretty nicely, actually - the intent is for a "few shots/make it count" piloting style, almost a snipercraft I guess. It literally ran CIRCLES around the Aeshemas I was using for target practice (no real shock, they're slow, but is it really natural to do loop-de-loops around an enemy while they're burning hard to get AWAY from you?). I may have to cut back on the maneuverability just a tad. I also noticed that all "side/rear" glances did for me was make my HUD vanish - but my vision stayed face-forward the whole time. Is there an eyepoint sub-object I can add in MAX, that I don't have to try and make PCS do it? I haven't quite got the knack of [changing] things in PCS, although viewing them is quite simple...

So if someone can help bring this little devil to completion, I'd appreciate any and all (constructive) input.
Particularly on the topic of getting these firing points to work (is the tertiary gun bank too much?), and the use of eyepoints and cockpits. And Bob, what are the GLOW type classifications? 1 is beam, I think I read, but what are the others? (most importantly, which is "running light" point-light?)
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 06, 2006, 08:14:21 am: Original i'll give you that :)

I can't help thinking kitchen implement from tlooking at the picture though...... :D
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: asyikarea51 on November 06, 2006, 08:17:50 am: The nose reminds me of the abandoned M6-class cruiser from X2:TT.

Spoiler:
The one which that (Tooooot...)ing lizard creature thingy tries to steal from you in one of the missions.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Taristin on November 06, 2006, 10:00:20 am: I used to have a smexy vertical fighter at one point... shame what happened to that file.....

anyways, I say you should work a little more on making a more detailed shape for it, and it could be nice.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 06, 2006, 10:29:16 am: Actually, I trace the original inspiration back to Titan AE...
(http://www.virtualtoychest.com/titanae/titanbadjetcrop.jpg)

I did a little tweaking on the missile racks this morning:
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris5.jpg)

I've also reduced the number of gun and missile mounts, as a 3/2 loadout bank seemed excessive for a recon fighter.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris6.jpg)
Now restricted to one missile bank (I'm thinking maybe a payload of 80, will need to test more), and the gun mounts I was going to add to the wingtips have been nixed entirely - I'll add those to its bigger cousin.

Edit:
Quote from: Taristin
anyways, I say you should work a little more on making a more detailed shape for it, and it could be nice.
Could you elaborate a bit? I'll agree that untextured it looks a might bit too plain, but I'm not sure what else you think I might go welding onto it...
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 06, 2006, 02:32:42 pm: Got the model done to where I want it, now to begin texturing (henceforth abbreviated Tx'ing)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris7.jpg)

As you might note in the background, I upgraded my tester "Nasty" wing from Aeshemas to an unpleasant mix of Dragons and Manticores. Most recent test results: Maybe I was too hasty in nixing the third gunbank - I finally wrapped my brain around some of PCS and got the firing points to work, but in doing so I noticed that EACH gun- and missile- bank had exported from Max with ten firing points (arrayed along the center of the ship, as per my previous problem. So it looks like every time I fired my tri-salvo from the test last night, I was blasting out 30 beams of Morning Star, Maxim, and Kayser at once. No wonder I ripped the Aeshemas to ribbons. x.x; My latest run, I felt a tad under-gunned, although part of that had to do with a mixup in gun banks (the solitary firing point above the cockpit is supposed to be a Morning Star, the guns below twin Kaysers, but I ended up with twin Stars). Maybe I can squeeze a new gunmount in the corner under the missile racks...

Still wondering - Does anyone know how to make the damn eyepoints work? I like being able to look behind me in combat.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Taristin on November 06, 2006, 04:43:54 pm: Quote from: Kieve on November 06, 2006, 10:29:16 am

Edit:
Quote from: Taristin
anyways, I say you should work a little more on making a more detailed shape for it, and it could be nice.
Could you elaborate a bit? I'll agree that untextured it looks a might bit too plain, but I'm not sure what else you think I might go welding onto it...

Erm, even textured it is very plain. I cant, for example, tell which is the front, nor the rear. top, nor bottom.
What *I* would do, would be to carve out a definitive cockpit area, make the winglet thingies look more like they're physically substantial, rather than cardboard pieces taped on, and perhaps create engine inlets, outlets, gun areas, a recessed/extruded panel here and there, and then make a good texture for it.

But that's me.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Cobra on November 06, 2006, 05:56:08 pm: Argh, HLP problems continue to plague me.

The Tigris looks more like a Shivan craft to me.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: RazorsKiss on November 06, 2006, 08:46:01 pm: Looks like this:

(http://razorskiss.net/img/flarepersleft.jpg)

Baroness Onrald's "Flare".

From Tachyon: The Fringe :D
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: spartan_0214 on November 06, 2006, 09:21:18 pm: pretty.....must....have.....

Quote
I've also reduced the number of gun and missile mounts, as a 3/2 loadout bank seemed excessive for a recon fighter.

says who? Recon fighters need to have SOME cover if their pilot is stupid enough to run into trouble....
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 07, 2006, 07:35:59 am: Spartan: 3/2 was the number of slots available, not actual firing points. IMO, a single bank of missiles and two gun choices should do it for a little guy like this (Heavy assault craft like the Ares and Erinyes don't have 3 separate gunbanks, even). I did say I would up the count on firing points however. Although I will say that with a top afterburn speed of somewhere in the vicinity of 190, any pilot stupid enough to wander into an ambush better be smart enough to turn this thing on its tail and draw the enemy back in range of support fire.

Taristin: I see what you mean. *erk* Truth be told, I [did] tack the fins on - the central body structure is saved separately to be the basis of many ships to come. Although I don't see how it's that hard to tell back from front, up from down, or left from right. @.<; At a glance, the body itself might look like a smoothed- and streamlined Hygeia.

Thanks for the comments, folks. ^_^ Although I do reiterate previous statements- Cockpit and Eyepoints, still need help with 'em. Anyone?
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: spartan_0214 on November 07, 2006, 09:59:51 am: Suggestion: Put the primary fire points on ONLY the.....fins.....and have the secondaries come from the middle of the horizontal wings....
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 07, 2006, 10:24:11 am: Kind of like the guns on old WWII era fighters? Interesting, but I like them close to the body where they are - more compact (I like compact :)).
Unfortunately, in adjusting the model again I've mucked up all my UVMapping (I'm meticulous about that stuff, so for me it's a real setback :p), however I might be back up and TX'in again by this afternoon. Should re-map it anyway, as I have far too much empty space and some of the mapping is horribly disproportionate (that little engine chunk gets as much UV tilespace as the whole top of the fuselage in its current build!). Ah well... back to the meshing board.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: spartan_0214 on November 07, 2006, 06:17:17 pm: I also like compact, but I didn't know what you were going for. Some like it in, some like it out, some like it nine meters up...
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 10, 2006, 11:08:52 am: Some revisions are slight, others are just not as visible as they might otherwise be:
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris8.jpg)

I added a pilot/cockpit section, although I don't have the TX quite done yet.
Been re-mapping the rest of the ship, so it's back to its untextured state.

Perhaps one of the most noticeable changes is the increased thickness of the wings. Unfortunately, I don't think I can smooth out the transition any more than I have, but hopefully they look less "tacked on" than before.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 10, 2006, 11:21:30 am: Getting there, I'm thinking Lost in space fighter, but far less stupid. :yes:
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: spartan_0214 on November 10, 2006, 06:21:12 pm: I dunno, it's starting to look worse, IMHO....
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 11, 2006, 07:35:19 pm: (http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris9.jpg)

Better, Spartan? ;)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris10.jpg)

Some pulling on the engine TX's - I'll have to fiddle around in Max so it stops doing that - but otherwise, things are progressing smoothly again.

As you can see, I've adjusted the missile banks - there will be two firing points on each side, with the lowest section devoted to another gunbank. Missile payload will accommodate approximately 40 Tornados per side - 80 in all. Gunbanks... well, I'm still determining loadout. Kaysers seem a bit much - maybe Prometheus-S paired with that Morning Star.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: spartan_0214 on November 11, 2006, 09:16:15 pm: It's not the model, or the modeling, or the textures, it's the way the ship is. I just don't like ships that are oriented vertically. I really don't like the main fighter in Inferno 1. because it's oriented vertically 2. the weapons are asymmetrical...

it's just my preferences.... All in all, a nice ship that I will never use, sorry
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Taristin on November 11, 2006, 09:30:30 pm: The only thing I'll fault you on is the cocpit. That ship would be a dog to fight in with a cocpit that you can only see directly in front of you in...
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: spartan_0214 on November 11, 2006, 09:32:52 pm: it's like a TIE-Fighter, GTVA-style
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 11, 2006, 09:54:43 pm: I won't argue that, Taristin...

I just finished another round of tests - forget the Morning Star, default weaponry will be Prometheus-S and a top-mounted Maxim cannon; missiles, an 80-count of Tornados.

Also, I need to do something drastic about the docking point. Anyone know approximately how [long] the path should be? I tried to rearm and the Hygeia just sat there looking stupid until I flew over to it- then it proceeded to try and mate with my face. X.x; Now, I know the docking point is on the top of the cockpit, but the support flew INTO me - and I don't mean collision, I mean clipping...

On a more positive note, firing points work, glow points work, eye points work (thank god)... I'd say all that's left is to finish up the textures, do some fine-tuning on the .TBM and I can call it done.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 16, 2006, 08:55:35 am: Going in for another round of testing. I created some new weapons to better match the "design philosophy" of the Tigris' creators... ehem... >.>

Question for anyone still watching this: How do you change the thruster glow? Is there a fix in PCS or ModelView I can use, or is it hard-coded to the Species listing? (IE: If I select Terran, it's blue, Vasudan, gold, Shivan, red?)
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Titan on November 16, 2006, 09:28:42 am: i know at Hades there's a thing for orange thrusters.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: asyikarea51 on November 16, 2006, 09:32:08 am: Quote from: Kieve on November 16, 2006, 08:55:35 am
Question for anyone still watching this: How do you change the thruster glow? Is there a fix in PCS or ModelView I can use, or is it hard-coded to the Species listing? (IE: If I select Terran, it's blue, Vasudan, gold, Shivan, red?)

Not sure about this, since I have yet to explore that part of the tables, but you might want to take a look at "Customised Thruster Effects" in the Ships.tbl section of the wiki. It's SCP-only though.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Janos on November 16, 2006, 10:35:47 am: how the hell does that thing fit in anything or land or dock anywhere
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 16, 2006, 10:39:29 am: Same way as a Tie Fighter or a herc mark II i'd imagine. :nod:
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 16, 2006, 07:18:56 pm: Janos:
A fork-type cradle I should think, positioned around the underside of the fuselage and missile bays. Probably from the front, as that would make life more convinient for pilots entering the top hatch.

Orange thrusters on Hades...? I'll have a look - at the very least, it might be a nice "how-to"
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 16, 2006, 08:28:10 pm: God bless the Wiki (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ships.tbl#Customized_Thruster_Effects)

Ah well. Anyone have a tip on how to make fighter beams less uber?
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Shade on November 16, 2006, 08:36:05 pm: Should just be a weapons.tbl issue. Tweak the damage and energy consumption values for the beam you're using until it fits your needs.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Polpolion on November 16, 2006, 08:47:26 pm: It reminds me of the vesuvius from inferno. But then you put those textures on, so it doesn't anymore :)
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 16, 2006, 09:17:59 pm: Shade: noted... I've been toying with it, I had just hoped someone had some values they could spit out for a "weak" balanced fighterbeam. I'll keep tweaking.

thesizzler: Haven't seen the vesuvius yet - I'll have to look into it.

[Edit] Nevermind. I was Googling the wrong keywords. Set Kieve.ANI ability == True

Go me. ;7
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 17, 2006, 07:03:40 am: Ran another round of tests last night. For the most part, things went very well, but it seems I have a tendancy to overpower my weapons. Rate of fire was much too quick on several of them, although the adjusted beam I mentioned now works exactly as it should - as a disabling tool, not a one-hit kill. Shortening the beam's on-time to a few fractions of a second helped immensely, now that I can no longer sweep it in the general direction of my targets and hope to wipe out a whole wing.

Also of interest is the KVM-22 and -25S "Mauler" missile - basically a fast-lock version of the Morning Star (25S is Swarm variant - less damage, but a quartet of them). I can't tell you how much fun it was to watch a Mara coming at me head-on and suddenly bounce away like it was hit by a train. For a scouting fighter, these will buy plenty of time to get away. May have to up the cargo value though, or decrease the Tigris' load capacity.

It would seem some of my guns (primaries) are not showing their icons correctly - even when the $Icon and $Anim parameters are copied directly from the original weapons.tbl. For the flak, I've come to understand that this is due to the model being defined (and unfortunately, I don't see any way around that, aside from revising Flak to be a secondary ammo-dependant weapon... which may not be a bad choice... hm...) but my other machinations, namely a Maxim rework and some high-level kayser-esque weapons, are listing their name on the selection board and not showing icons. o.O;

In testing the new species entry and thrusters, I found that the engine glows worked fine again, but apparently I need to define some kind of subobject in order to have an actual thruster flame. Anyone know the MAX heiarchy for that?
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 18, 2006, 02:59:15 pm: Quote from: Taristin on November 11, 2006, 09:30:30 pm
The only thing I'll fault you on is the cocpit. That ship would be a dog to fight in with a cocpit that you can only see directly in front of you in...

Myrmidon, Serapis.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Taristin on November 18, 2006, 07:25:25 pm: Quote from: ngtm1r on November 18, 2006, 02:59:15 pm
Quote from: Taristin on November 11, 2006, 09:30:30 pm
The only thing I'll fault you on is the cocpit. That ship would be a dog to fight in with a cocpit that you can only see directly in front of you in...

Myrmidon, Serapis.
Im aware of those, but they don't block you from looking upward. You can see, atleast partially, above you with those. This tigris cannot, in fact, even 45* upward ahead of you looks to be the limit.
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: asyikarea51 on November 18, 2006, 08:58:10 pm: Quote from: Kieve on November 17, 2006, 07:03:40 am
For the flak, I've come to understand that this is due to the model being defined (and unfortunately, I don't see any way around that, aside from revising Flak to be a secondary ammo-dependant weapon... which may not be a bad choice... hm...)

I tried to find a way around this too, but didn't have luck as well. I found an alternative in the SCP features though, thank goodness for it. :)
Title: Re: ?GF "Tigris" prototype - needs help
Post by: Kieve on November 21, 2006, 03:57:23 pm: Finally, some significant progress on the texturing... Still have to tweak it for glow and shine mapping, and I haven't really started with the cockpit yet, but otherwise...

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris11.jpg)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris12.jpg)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/Kieve/WIP-%20Robofish/VGF_Tigris13.jpg)