Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Carl on December 20, 2001, 07:54:00 pm
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what kind of holidays do you think the vasudans have? they probably celebrate some of the same ones the terrans do that involve the 2nd great war(Battle of Deneb Day ect.)
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vasudans... do they have holydays?
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i doubt they work 365 days a year(or how ever many days long a Vasudan year is).
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Originally posted by venom2506:
vasudans... do they have holydays?
Look at it this way: is there any culture on earth that doesn't hold some days out of the year as signifigant or sacred? I can't think of any. I suspect that there aren't any. I think that Vasudans must have holidays, secular and religious.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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Fishcake Tuesday?
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Ace should know.
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Vasudans know that Terran holidays are simply excuses for merchants from semi-tropical climes to sell their surplus of co-fee beans to those in Northern regions and those in the southern hemisphere attempting to mimic such behaviors by making their holiday icons in "summer clothes."
Since Vasudans do not have inferior co-fee, such holidays are not required. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/drevil.gif)
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Originally posted by mikhael:
Look at it this way: is there any culture on earth that doesn't hold some days out of the year as signifigant or sacred? I can't think of any. I suspect that there aren't any. I think that Vasudans must have holidays, secular and religious.
ants and bees?
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They'll probably 'celebrate' -rather remember- the destruction of Vasuda Prime.
Ascension day looks like a possible one too (the day when the current emperor ascended the throne)
A dynastic Celebration will probably exist too.
The emperors birthday?
Some celebrations having to do with the old myths about that 'mysterious race'
The starting of the New Year? Which could possible co-incide with the ending or beginning of summer (their world being a hot one).
Colonisation day? The day when the first offworld colony was established...
Edit: How could I forget this one:
Headz-day! Every young Vasudan gets his first Headz at a certain age celebrating the trasition from sibling to full citizen. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Crazy_Ivan80 (edited 12-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by venom2506:
ants and bees?
Last I checked, ants and bees hadn't developed religion, literature, sciences, arts, etc. I wouldn't call them a 'culture' in the same sense that humanity has various cultures.
Ants and bees have a hierarchical 'social' structure and we refer to it as a 'social structure' because we like to anthropomorphise things. They aren't 'social' nor do they have 'culture'.
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--Mik http://www.404error.com ("http://www.404error.com")
[This message has been edited by mikhael (edited 12-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by mikhael:
anthropomorphise
thats a big word (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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"We have a responsibility to the coming generations"
"What responsibility???"
"To keep track of the mistakes we made as a species."
"We need to remember to spread the word,and that's what keeps me alive."
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Originally posted by mikhael:
Last I checked, ants and bees hadn't developed religion, literature, sciences, arts, etc. I wouldn't call them a 'culture' in the same sense that humanity has various cultures.
Ants and bees have a hierarchical 'social' structure and we refer to it as a 'social structure' because we like to anthropomorphise things. They aren't 'social' nor do they have 'culture'.
ants have a very developped sense of science, they keep creating things. religion doesn't make a culture, hopefully (anyway, who knows if they don't have that?). aAnts have a fairly developped sense of individualism: the hive sake comes first, but an ant on her own will be able to make decisions, and will always try to find the best way to avoid or fix a pb. I didn't gave much credits to ants before, then I've read the trilpgy by Bernard Werber, I was impressed, so I took a closer look at those little beasts. They steal "technologies" from other species, create others when they need to, have a much more developped communication system, and are everywhere. they're much smarter than we think, are the only species doing war like us (between cities or against other species). They have political goals (they won't fight only for territory, but also to control resources and stuff like that). They're building cities, corporations between cities (cooperation between different social groups, if that's not advanced culture, I don't know what will convince you). They can settle in the most hostile environments( find a single human bieng that never saw an ant), from human cities to deserts and and even Groenland. They can adapt, that's what led us to be the dominant earth species. But what would happen if they decided to cooperate not opnly between some hives, but on a planet scale? I wonder what would be the most dominant species. You kill some ants with insecticides, most will die, but the surviving ones will be completly immunized to it.
For me, ants are equal to us on a civilisation-wise scale. And they have an exponential expansion, w/o even altering their environment.
End of rant (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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Originally posted by venom2506:
ants have a very developped sense of science, they keep creating things. religion doesn't make a culture, hopefully (anyway, who knows if they don't have that?). aAnts have a fairly developped sense of individualism: the hive sake comes first, but an ant on her own will be able to make decisions, and will always try to find the best way to avoid or fix a pb. I didn't gave much credits to ants before, then I've read the trilpgy by Bernard Werber, I was impressed, so I took a closer look at those little beasts. They steal "technologies" from other species, create others when they need to, have a much more developped communication system, and are everywhere. they're much smarter than we think, are the only species doing war like us (between cities or against other species). They have political goals (they won't fight only for territory, but also to control resources and stuff like that). They're building cities, corporations between cities (cooperation between different social groups, if that's not advanced culture, I don't know what will convince you). They can settle in the most hostile environments( find a single human bieng that never saw an ant), from human cities to deserts and and even Groenland. They can adapt, that's what led us to be the dominant earth species. But what would happen if they decided to cooperate not opnly between some hives, but on a planet scale? I wonder what would be the most dominant species. You kill some ants with insecticides, most will die, but the surviving ones will be completly immunized to it.
For me, ants are equal to us on a civilisation-wise scale. And they have an exponential expansion, w/o even altering their environment.
End of rant (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
I agree with all of your points, but draw a different conclusion: ants are not a full blown, self-aware, intelligent culture, yet. They have the potential. I do not believe that potential will ever be realised because they have become superspecialised to their niche by the forces of natural selection.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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I agree with all of your points, but draw a different conclusion: ants are not a full blown, self-aware, intelligent culture, yet. They have the potential. I do not believe that potential will ever be realised because they have become superspecialised to their niche by the forces of natural selection.
Maybe they're playing dumb, waiting for the day when they can annihilate the humans and claim dominance Mwuhahahaha....
The reason they won't become a 'civilized' species is because of us. Eventually some stupid **** will spill soemthing like Agent Orange and everything will die. Also, being the dominant species, I don't think we'd ever let another species (terrestrial or otherwise) be as or more powerful as/than us. The only chance they'd have is if the human race were wiped out and anything that coudl wipe us out would undoubtedly kill everything else along with us.
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that's what be tend to be to: education leads people to specialize themselves in a single track. Jobs are more and more focused on a single point of a total job, for exemple, at the begining of the last centurey, a little group could, on his own, build an entire car, each one able to help the other if a prob;lem occurs. Now you have a complete staff focused only to, say, supervized the paint process (which means looking at the computers if nothing goes wrong). you have specialized "castes", like the cilvil servants. It works exactly the same way for the ants. They have warriors, they have scouting parties, they have nurses, they even have varieties that are used as doors to block paths to the queen's room in times of war (they have a very broad head that can obturate a corridor). And they don't birth (sp?) as what they will become (at the exception of sexued/unsexued individuals), they all began has ants able to do everything, then they specializes themselves according to what's needed, their evolution appears through different foods and pheromonal exchanges. It's just another sort of educational, physic rather than pshychic, as ours is.
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This reminds me of that Rammstein video (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Links 2-3-4
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The GTVA might have declared the days on which certain epic battles or big events occured to be galactic holidays. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) I would think that the holidays would include the day on which Vasuda Prime was destroyed, the day on which the Lucifer was destroyed (and Earth was cut off from itc colonies), and maybe the day of the Capella supernova.
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This thread got from Vasudan holidays/culture to ants.
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)HOW DID YOU MAKE THE TRANSISTION???? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
By the way, ants are highly intelligent. Like stated by him [the other guy], ants do build glorious civilizations. They specialize in work and they farm their resources (grow a fungus on leaves) when natural forages have been depleted. They even specialize within their own species. (The queen has an egg sac, the drone has wings, the soldiers are usually the bigger ones, and of course the rest 97% of the colony are those pests you see on your lawn.) God didn't just create us to be the superior being. (He did say that we have control of this rock and we do indeed.) Ants dominate the subterranean worlds. They do indeed steal technologies from other colonies or other species. (Leafcutters can change their diet to match those of the honeydew ants.) And did you know that when different colonies wage intercolonial war, their armies are more organized that the Redcoats. And did I mention trade? There are several species of ants who trade with a different colony their extra surpluses of whatever for whatever the other colony has that the colony needs.
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Christ
Redeems
All
People
God is Life
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Originally posted by Rampage:
This thread got from Vasudan holidays/culture to ants.
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)HOW DID YOU MAKE THE TRANSISTION???? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
By the way, ants are highly intelligent. Like stated by him [the other guy], ants do build glorious civilizations. They specialize in work and they farm their resources (grow a fungus on leaves) when natural forages have been depleted. They even specialize within their own species. (The queen has an egg sac, the drone has wings, the soldiers are usually the bigger ones, and of course the rest 97% of the colony are those pests you see on your lawn.) God didn't just create us to be the superior being. (He did say that we have control of this rock and we do indeed.) Ants dominate the subterranean worlds. They do indeed steal technologies from other colonies or other species. (Leafcutters can change their diet to match those of the honeydew ants.) And did you know that when different colonies wage intercolonial war, their armies are more organized that the Redcoats. And did I mention trade? There are several species of ants who trade with a different colony their extra surpluses of whatever for whatever the other colony has that the colony needs.
I will preface by saying I do not mean to offend.
By including omniscient, omnipotent powers in your stance, you render the discussion moot. There's no logical divide between ant and man except the whim of some superbeing. Pass.
I guess what makes the distinction between sentient races (human, vasudan, shivan, Ancients) and the nonsentient (ants, bees) is the ability to change their basic responses based on things that are not hard coded or forced by environment. Ants don't build things. They don't create or innovate new ideas, tools or methods. They don't build rafts to take them across oceans or ships to cross the stars. They don't have aesthetics response. They don't have 'culture' or 'society'. Sentient races do all of those things (or work toward them). They have the ability to create things that are not directly related to survival and to appreciate those things in a way that is seperate from their immediate concerns.
Venom, you point out that humanity specializes just like ants. I point out that they do, but they don't have too. A soldier can leave the army and become a farmer. A computer programmer can become an artist. A politician can become an sailor. A soldier ant will live and die a soldier, and will never go out to cut leaves. The queen will always be the queen. She can't just give it all up and become a regular ant. We specialize by choice, not by necessity.
Ants are awesome, but they aren't sentient and do not have culture.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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Ants do have a culture, they all work together for the greater good.
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Originally posted by Zeronet:
Ants do have a culture, they all work together for the greater good.
So do wolf packs. That's not culture. Culture allows for individuals that can ignore the common good for ideals and goals that may run contrary to the needs of the herd.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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Originally posted by mikhael:
I will preface by saying I do not mean to offend.
By including omniscient, omnipotent powers in your stance, you render the discussion moot. There's no logical divide between ant and man except the whim of some superbeing. Pass.
I guess what makes the distinction between sentient races (human, vasudan, shivan, Ancients) and the nonsentient (ants, bees) is the ability to change their basic responses based on things that are not hard coded or forced by environment. Ants don't build things. They don't create or innovate new ideas, tools or methods. They don't build rafts to take them across oceans or ships to cross the stars. They don't have aesthetics response. They don't have 'culture' or 'society'. Sentient races do all of those things (or work toward them). They have the ability to create things that are not directly related to survival and to appreciate those things in a way that is seperate from their immediate concerns.
Venom, you point out that humanity specializes just like ants. I point out that they do, but they don't have too. A soldier can leave the army and become a farmer. A computer programmer can become an artist. A politician can become an sailor. A soldier ant will live and die a soldier, and will never go out to cut leaves. The queen will always be the queen. She can't just give it all up and become a regular ant. We specialize by choice, not by necessity.
Ants are awesome, but they aren't sentient and do not have culture.
no offense taken, but you're wrong:
Ants create and uses tools: it has been witnessed ants trying to push leaves in water in order to cross a waterpoint. They grow other insects for their own use, like cattle. And they build their hives (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) and unlike spider webs, all the hives are differents, they will use usefull stuff if they find it (a dead tree for exemple). And warriors d not live only for war: ants aren't always at war after all (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) warriors can do drone stuff too, and they carry stuff just like regular ants when they have nothing else to do (they will cut leaves (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) ).
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You attack my every point, sir, and well.
I will still maintain, however, that this discussion of ants does not give them culture, just structure. They are still not sentient, and thus do not qualify for the discussion. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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They don't build rafts to take them across oceans or ships to cross the stars
Fire ants. On their travels, if they encounter a river or water barrier the entire colony forms an immense (and deadly might I add) raft that floats across the water. They kinda sting and mame anything they come in contact with and at present are probably the single greatest natural threat to human habitation in parts of the world.
Also, ants come in many species that are adapted to their regions eg Meat ants in Australia strip dead animal carcasses, the fire ants form rafts because water is a frequent problem. This could be compared to traits in humans such as black skin to survive more sun and the inability of many arid countrys inhabitants to swim.
To summarise: HA! They don't need to build no stinkin' boats coz any that need to cross water can naturally swim/float.
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or ships to cross the stars
Neither do humans.
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Originally posted by an0n:
Fire ants. On their travels, if they encounter a river or water barrier the entire colony forms an immense (and deadly might I add) raft that floats across the water. They kinda sting and mame anything they come in contact with and at present are probably the single greatest natural threat to human habitation in parts of the world.
Also, ants come in many species that are adapted to their regions eg Meat ants in Australia strip dead animal carcasses, the fire ants form rafts because water is a frequent problem. This could be compared to traits in humans such as black skin to survive more sun and the inability of many arid countrys inhabitants to swim.
To summarise: HA! They don't need to build no stinkin' boats coz any that need to cross water can naturally swim/float.
In what way does that qualify them as having culture? Beetles come in all shapes and sizes and perform all sorts of tasks and activities too. They just do it more or less in a solitary manner. They aren't sentient and neither are ants. There's no culture involved, just instinct.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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ahem, Vasudan holidays?
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Originally posted by an0n:
Neither do humans.
We're discussing Vasudan holidays in a notional future in which man has done precisely that. And in which ants and bees still have not. Humans have holidays, so must Vasudans--and Shivans.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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Originally posted by mikhael:
In what way does that qualify them as having culture? Beetles come in all shapes and sizes and perform all sorts of tasks and activities too. They just do it more or less in a solitary manner. They aren't sentient and neither are ants. There's no culture involved, just instinct.
Well, my best answer here is their communication system, even more devolpped than us: it's faster and more acurrate. And if normal ants lacks that, sexued individuals have very developed abstract feelings. They even have what scientits calls total communication, they put their antennas together and, basically, the memories and thoughts of the other ant will be available to the first one just like it was her owns. And ants can do TC in groups: imagine a kind of telepathic chat in a room, between a dozen of people, you could remember what your neighbour did 5 years ago for exemple.
And instinct is not the only way of behaving fot ants. From the little I know, apart from humans, there's only two species in the world that could find the way to open a plastic bottle: octopus and ants. Apes have to be educated to find how to do that. An ant put with some food in a bottle (small enough for her of course) was able to find how to open it in 32 days... Instincts won't teach you that.
Anyway, you're right, I should stop talking about ants, but they fscinate me...
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Ok, this is off to HL.... there's not much FS content here.
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We have spaceships, they cant cross the stars !"YET"!. But we in theory have the means to send people to other solar systems.
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Originally posted by mikhael:
We're discussing Vasudan holidays in a notional future in which man has done precisely that. And in which ants and bees still have not. Humans have holidays, so must Vasudans--and Shivans.
lol, I don't think shivans have holidays (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
we tend to give other species the same characteristics we have, and that ruins their "alienness"...
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Going back to ants... They DO have a culture. They communicate and do have aestheic affinities. They do "decorate" their hive. The queen's lair is often fore elegant that the granaries. God made them this way. They are social creatures with a complex society. And their army is very organized. They do have "lieutenants" in the field and they do organize their warfare. If they're losing, they will retreat and will dispatch reinforcements when needed. It has been witnessed to do this. I rest my case.
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Christ
Redeems
All
People
God is Life
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*sees danger of thread becoming a religious/creationist discussion/argument*
*runs*
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if it does it's getting ownt.
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As a final point I would like to add that we're only considered better than the ants for two reason:
1) We have far more arrogance and self righteousness/importance
2) The dinosaurs died. If those massive *****es were still walking around then I doubt we'd be much more advanced than ants (squish).
Don't believe what yer ex said, size matters.
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Originally posted by an0n:
As a final point I would like to add that we're only considered better than the ants for two reason:
1) We have far more arrogance and self righteousness/importance
2) The dinosaurs died. If those massive *****es were still walking around then I doubt we'd be much more advanced than ants (squish).
Don't believe what yer ex said, size matters.
Brains evidently trump size, speed, herd instinct etc. I seem to see billions of people on the planet, and an endangered population of elephants (large), endangered cheetahs (fast), and wolves (pack creatures).
Humans and ants share a lot, but there is no way you'll get me to believe that they are a sentient species capable of having holidays, observing astrological phenomena, creating sculpture for aesthetic purposes, sending mail, developing a monetary system, etc. They're insects. Make them big enough so that they can have a complex enough brain to have sentience, then perhaps I'll buy it. IE: no holidays.
Vasudans, Shivans, Humans, Ancients: They have holidays. Yes, even Shivans. Not because they're less alien, but because they are organized and intelligent. Even if its just an observence of the changing of seasons, the beginning of the next emission cycle of a quasar or the arrival of a comet on its long elliptical course around a solar system, they observer those events and they mark them.Holidays are almost a direct outgrowth of a sense of time, an awareness of a temporal location in the universe.
I reiterate: every sentient species has holidays.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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Vasudans would probably have some kinda special day but I doubt it'd be anything religious. More ceremonial stuff like khonsu inaugeration day and memorial stuff like 'the day vasuda prime got levelled' day.
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This should shut up everyone who is clever enough to understand it:
The universe has certain laws, laws of physics which dictate properties of particles and energy forms, such as the law that an object in motion stays in motion until an outside force is applied. Now taking these laws we can see that under a set of circumstances involving a number of particles in motion that only a single sequence of events can occur and that this sequence and every part of it was predetermined by the state of the particles at the beginning of the sequence. Now we take this out to a larger, universal scale and we can see that all actions, reaction and events were predetermined at the point of the big-bang or the creation of the universe. Therefore we see that no species has free will and is only doing what it was destined to do, what it was programmed to do. Ants have a much simpler program than higher animals but have the exact same amount of free will and creativity that humans have, namely the amount the universe gave them.
If we were to work on a macroscopic scale we can see that every action taken by a person is the result of some external stimuli, this stimulation of say the optic nerve sends impulses to the brain (the only thing that was allowed by the laws of physics). They electric sparks ripple through the nervous system and various parts of the brain to form a complex sequence of impulses. These impulses are formed by the events in a persons life and the way in which their brain is structure as a result, since these past events cannot change, the sequence of impulses is predetermined the second the light hits the retina of the subject. The events are carried out and interact with various other sequences and stimuli to form what we call life, but is simply quantum and cellular level reactions that result from simple sub-atomic stimuli. Ants have these exact same processes going through their heads only the sequences are simpler. Thus we can conclude that both ants and people are simply sacks of chemicals that react to stimuli in a predetermined way and as such they are the same in every respect with the exception that their reactions to various stimuli differ somewhat. Now it could be said that this means nothing and that humans are still sentient whereas ants are not, but if you really understood the point I was trying to get across you understand that sentience means **** and that everything we say, think, feel and do was predetermined at the beginning of the universe. To summarise: You're destined to follow a single path, as are the ants, and there is **** all you can do about it.
I should really right a book.
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Homer: So I thought to myself 'What would God do?'
Bart: Mwuhaha. Locusts
I is internet proficient ("http://www.fattonys.com")
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Originally posted by an0n:
This should shut up everyone who is clever enough to understand it:
I should really right a book.
You could write a book, but its been written numerous times already. You're talking about the strong anthropic principle. Its tripe.
Its also unrelated. Ants and bees don't have holidays. Vasudans, Terrans, Shivans and the Ancients do (or did). Back to the question at hand, what sort of Vasudan holidays are there?
I disagree that they wouldn't have religious holidays, for the same reason I think that they must have holidays: all cultures on earth (that is to say, all the cultures we have to use as a body of evidence) have religious and secular holidays. I suspect that at the very least, Vasudans have solstices and equinoxes (as any planet with an elliptical orbit and an axial tilt will). I suspect also that they have several different religions, each with its collection of holy days. Weren't the Hammer of Light followers of an older religion? I can't recall.
There are also the secular observences, like the new year (again, a common observence on earth). Did Vasuda have moons? They probably observe (or once did) full moons (for their tidal signifigance) or for their marking of parts of the year that are good for planting. The tides, especially, might have signifigance for a species that is semiaquatic in nature (I don't know why, I've always thought that Vasudans were amphibious).
Going further, we know they have a military and thus very likely observer military victories of the past, disturbing defeats that are mourned (like ANZAC Day. The Fall of Vasuda Prime comes to mind). They probably celebrate (as likely do Terrans) the day they signed the treaty that birthed the GTVA.
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--Mik http://www.404error.com ("http://www.404error.com")
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
[This message has been edited by mikhael (edited 12-21-2001).]
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You're talking about the strong anthropic principle. Its tripe.
No, it's high-school physics. (Action -> reaction)= Event. Event -> reaction.
And about the holidays. The fact is, we simply don't know enough about the Vasudan culture to speculate. Although I'd say that holidays are pretty much a certainty for a species that prides itself on such trivial **** as how to address someone being based on their age, status and time of day. They're big on formality.
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Originally posted by an0n:
No, it's high-school physics. (Action -> reaction)= Event. Event -> reaction.
No, the strong anthropic principle is cosmology. You are misapplying basic Newtonian physics, which are demonstrably broken during certain extremely high energy and low energy situations, such as very soon after the creation of the universe, and thus destroy any tracing of causal chains back to the creation of the universe. Further, Newtonian physics break down (as do most such things) at extremely small or short(Planck length) scales.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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Kind of tough for the Vasudans to be amphibious on a planet where most of the water is undrinkable by their own standards (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
The destruction of Vasuda Prime by the Lucifer would definately be a holiday of mourning for the Great War. Probably most of a "Vasudan holiday" though is in the handling of The Conversation during that time period...
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Originally posted by Ace:
Kind of tough for the Vasudans to be amphibious on a planet where most of the water is undrinkable by their own standards (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Is it? I didn't know that. *heh* They still remind me of fishies.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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You don't seem to realise that no matter the force affecting an object, be they on the microscopic, macroscopic or universal scale, they are all unbreakable, unbendable and interlinked with each other. Just because Newton's theories don't apply directly, Newtons laws are a larger part and are made up of all the Planck scale interactions. Everything obeys some law, all the laws are in the universe and are based on observations in the universe and thus are all linked in many many ways. Just because modern science can't link them or understand them doesn't mean that they are random or not linked.
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Originally posted by an0n:
You don't seem to realise that no matter the force affecting an object, be they on the microscopic, macroscopic or universal scale, they are all unbreakable, unbendable and interlinked with each other. Just because Newton's theories don't apply directly, Newtons laws are a larger part and are made up of all the Planck scale interactions. Everything obeys some law, all the laws are in the universe and are based on observations in the universe and thus are all linked in many many ways. Just because modern science can't link them or understand them doesn't mean that they are random or not linked.
Everything obeys certain laws, but those laws change the conditions, which chains the laws, which change the conditions. That's cosmology again. Its still not high school physics. And high school physics neither states, nor implies that causal chains dictate the patterns of thought in sentient beings brain. You might want to go back to Hawking for a fine discussion of that topic.
I'll buy the weak anthropic principle, but not your strong anthropic principle. It neither makes sense, nor is it terribly likely once you start looking at the numbers.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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What would a Shivan holiday (or "special" day that repeats periodically) be like anyway?
Now taking these laws we can see that under a set of circumstances involving a number of particles in motion that only a single sequence of events can occur and that this sequence and every part of it was predetermined by the state of the particles at the beginning of the sequence. Now we take this out to a larger, universal scale and we can see that all actions, reaction and events were predetermined at the point of the big-bang or the creation of the universe. Therefore we see that no species has free will and is only doing what it was destined to do, what it was programmed to do.
Actually I think that with recent advances in quantum mechanics and the development of the chaos theory, this idea has been replaced in favor of the random/probability idea. (nothing is directly predetermined but is a matter of probabilities, influenced but not determined by the laws)
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You're a good arguer.
Here's something for you to think about:
I can setup and experiment whereby, according to einstein, if one result is given, I can determine and absolute fixed, motionless point in space and if the other possible result holds true, I'll have moved the universe with a few rockets and a pair of lasers. That's how ****** up that fuzzy haired ***** was.
Everyone goes to such great lengths, dreaming up highly implausible, very thin and impossible to prove wrong theories just to prove that Einstein (the man who miraculously came up with the e=mc2 thing while working in a PATENT office) was right. They simply cannot accept that he bluffed his way through and talk a load of crap. I mean how the hell can you prove him wrong when he says that speed of light is constant but all speed is relative? You make light slow down and they just say that you were moving very fast in the direction of the light. Complete bull****. Thats little ****er has held up science for decades.
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Actually I think that with recent advances in quantum mechanics and the development of the chaos theory, this idea has been replaced in favor of the random/probability idea. (nothing is directly predetermined but is a matter of probabilities, influenced but not determined by the laws)
I know. They've observed particles simply appeaing outta nowhere. But there must have been some event or circumstances that triggered the particle to form, even if the event was extra-dimensional or from the Xth dimension of space.
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Originally posted by an0n:
I know. They've observed particles simply appeaing outta nowhere. But there must have been some event or circumstances that triggered the particle to form, even if the event was extra-dimensional or from the Xth dimension of space.
Yes. Something does cause it: random chance. The important thing is that such particles annihilate themselves instantaneously. They do not last in the universe very long. Their very existence is observerabel only by ancillary effects, not by direct observation. The Casimir Effect is one such consequence, as is the (theorized) 'evaporation' of black holes.
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--Mik http://www.404error.com ("http://www.404error.com")
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
[This message has been edited by mikhael (edited 12-21-2001).]
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Don't get me started on black-holes.
The whole bending of space thing was just invented to explain how light got sucked in to them (it magically having no mass and no gravitational force being able to attract it). They're just super-dense stars that have the gravity to suck in light.
Oh did you read the thing about the super-positioned particles that did stuff simultaneously even over great distances, so great that the communication between them must have been faster than light. Now that has some interesting possibilities.
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Hmmm, talking about quantum-inseperability?
And what do you have against black holes and warped space-time?
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Originally posted by an0n:
Don't get me started on black-holes.
The whole bending of space thing was just invented to explain how light got sucked in to them (it magically having no mass and no gravitational force being able to attract it). They're just super-dense stars that have the gravity to suck in light.
Oh did you read the thing about the super-positioned particles that did stuff simultaneously even over great distances, so great that the communication between them must have been faster than light. Now that has some interesting possibilities.
No, the whole 'bending of space' thing was theorized as a reason why gravity fails to obey the speed of light. Again, go read your Hawking. You've missed some points.
The other matter to which you refer is called 'entanglement' and was referred to by Einstein as 'spooky action at a distance'. In theory, changes to one particle on a quantum scale are mimicked precisely by a second particle that is somehow 'entangled' with the first. Entanglement actually been created in laboratory conditions in several hundred atoms at once.
Since entanglement only happens when the particles are near each other, for spooky action at a distance to actually violate c, you would have to, in some way, seperate the two particles. However, once you start interacting with them, the entanglement collapses, and you're left with a bunch of undifferentiated atoms with no particular relationships.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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What do you think is more likely:
Einstein was wrong and light can go faster and round corners
OR
The very fabric of our existence is broken by objects that exist within the space they destroy
Hmmm?
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No, the whole 'bending of space' thing was theorized as a reason why gravity fails to obey the speed of light.
Yes. Something went faster than light and they tried to destroy this heracy with ****** -up new theories.
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Originally posted by an0n:
What do you think is more likely:
Einstein was wrong and light can go faster and round corners
OR
The very fabric of our existence is broken by objects that exist within the space they destroy
Hmmm?
Light can go 'round corners, and it cannot go faster than itself. c is the frame of reference by which all other relationships are measured.
Existence is neither a fabric, nor is it 'destroyed'. Parts of it, can, however be made impassible, or extremely hazardous.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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Existence is neither a fabric, nor is it 'destroyed'. Parts of it, can, however be made impassible, or extremely hazardous.
I was dumbing stuff down because it's like 4am and I'm getting to tired to make use of my extensive vocabulary.
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Originally posted by an0n:
I was dumbing stuff down because it's like 4am and I'm getting to tired to make use of my extensive vocabulary.
And your incredible reserves of humility and modesty?
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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They were depleted about the same time this guy in a white coat held me upside down and smacked my *** . I really should drink less when I got camping.
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Cool, my spelling is starting to go as well. Musta been the Lambrini. That stuff sucks *** but my sista wouldn't let me at the Red Square.
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I haven't gotten a chance to study relativistic physics in great detail but from what I have read so far, Einstein's theories certainly do make sense. (and experiments involving the decay-time of particles moving at speeds near C show the relativity ideas to be correct)
BTW mikhael, I just visited your website out of curiosity; are you into Lego stuff? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) I am a complete Technic fanatic and also like some Space stuff. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) I frequently post on the lugnet.technic newsgroup and run a Technic-related website; I really need to start updating it again...
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I can see what ants might have to do with holidays. (To sort out this piece of argument I think you need to define exactly what sentience is) I can sort of see how the destiny/fate thing might have to do with holidays (there is such a thing as destiny but it can be influenced up to a point by anyone)
But exactly how do Einstein and Newton's theories relate to the topic? And why does it matter who's right or wrong?
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And why does it matter who's right or wrong?
We're discussing the things that make-up the universe and dictate how it works, and you can't see why this matters? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
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Originally posted by mikhael:
I reiterate: every sentient species has holidays.
Sorry I won't read all that, anyway this part kept my attention. the result:
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Woah!! to have holidays means being intelligent!!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
What the hell??? Does wasting time doing nothing makes a species sentient??????? I don't think we would be that advanced if our prehistoric ancestors just put their fat a$$ every sunday, every birthday, every "celebration of the fire falling from: the sky that toasted the mammoth".
Hollydays??? Don't get me wrong, I like holidays (of course :rolleyes (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif), but I don't see what makes holidays a proof of sentientness (?). pff, come on, it's nothing incredible, it's just a rest time. Oh! Animals are much wiser than we are: when they're tired, they stop doing stuff, and rest. us superiors humans will keep on working till it's 6pm, saturday, etc etc etc, and will then only get a break, ignoring the fact that the last hours of work were made in a hurry, negligence etc. Whoa, advanced behaviour this is, little bug (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
"looking at my post, wondering if I should make it look less agressive--> hell no, I'm a member of the most advanced species, I will sure not write this again (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)"
edit: loooots of typos
[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 12-22-2001).]
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the only reason we need holidays is because our society is fundamentally opposed to the way we should natyrally function.
We force ourselves to live this way, we also force people who DONT want to live this way into living like it. Then wonder why we have terrorism. Idiots.
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hell no, I'm a member of the most advanced species
From:Nantes, Loire, France
joke.
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How do holidays apply to people on Spaceships? I know from SC that they do usually have rememberence ceremonies etc.
[This message has been edited by Zeronet (edited 12-22-2001).]
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Originally posted by an0n:
joke.
f*ck you. Is that clear enough?
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Hey people, grow up some. You know who you are.