Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Qwer on November 25, 2006, 10:24:32 am
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Topic copied directly from freespace.pl . ;) It's mainly for your visions of GTVA's future in fleets, technologies and so on (also discussions about them). Feel free to discuss, I'll write what we came to on polish forum when I'll have more free time.
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One fleet. Hybridized between the species.
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Fighters no longer being restricted to inter-system jumps (ie without being specially retrofitted at much cost).
Meson based Anti-Cap weapons
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M.A.D. - Mutually Assured Destruction
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The Second Great War demonstrated the importance of fighters, and conversly anti-fighter point defenses. It also demonstrated that bigger ships aren't always better, I think the fleets will be comprised more of smaller vessels, and I think the fleets will be far more integrated with each other, if not combined.
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I believe it should include more, smaller yet more powerful 'tactical' weapons, such as the Golgotha or Apothess, rather than putting all your trust into one super-powerful GTVSJ Terra or anything like that. Trying new weapons would be a good idea. And integrate Shivan technology into new ships, like the Hades. Most of the old specimens using Shivan technology turned out very good. VT relations must be maintained to keep the fleet good. A separated fleet reduces morale and sharing technology is always a good idea.
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definitely meld VT technology...capture more shivan ships and get their techs. The sekhmet and hades were the results of shivan RE-ing, right? and those did turn out well, as snail pointed out.
probably have your fleets/battle groups centered around one or two destroyers with beams in a forward array (much like the shivan destroyers) flanked/rearguarded by corvettes optimized for antifighter with enough firepower to hold off flanking capships.
spread the fighters/bombers around the battlegroup, so that if one ships fighterbays get incapacitated the battlegroup doesnt become completely defenseless.
this for large battles against enemy capships. for scouting/striking, some corvettes could be independent from the main group, seeing as how they have their own fighterbay, and they could go on search and destroy missions.
and definitely redundant engine subsystems on your ships, so theyre that much harder to disable.
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Dealing with juggernauts is going to be high on the list of things they need. I suspect the first "wave" of post-Capella new ship designs will be geared towards that function, though how is open to debate. I've postulated things ranging from monitor-style flying-beam-cannon cruisers to Helios-barrage-of-doom corvettes to AWACs ships able to direct a planetary-launched missile strike.
A proper replacement for the Thoth. (Like the Shu.) Using the Serapis as a space superiority fighter occassioned huge casualities, so the Vasudans need one. The Boanerges and Hecate are likely to be the Terran victims of "Lessons Learned".
More integrated fleets, but not quite so far as Raa thinks. At least for the next fifty years. Rather you'll start to see groups built of mixed Vasudan and Terran ships rather than seperate fleets. I suspect a gradual process with the old fleets remaining as organizations; the new integrated units would be over and above existing fleet units. They may experiment with integrated crews for awhile but I think in the end they'll go against it, as the physical differences between the two species would make that difficult to manage.
An overall trend to being able to do more with less. Modular ship designs are one possiblity. Funding will not be lacking I imagine, nothing like 80 star-killing monsterships to get the government to open its purse, so more battlefield-effective and less cost-effective is another likely trend.
At least a temporary resurgence of the cruiser, because cruisers require less crew and can therefore be gotten into service faster.
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I think the Hecate actually functioned fairly well, but didn't really demonstrate superiority over the Orion.
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I never thought of the Hecate as a destroyer, really. More like a light carrier, IMO.
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More combined-arms wings involving cruisers and corvettes, supported by a command frigate (e.g. Iceni)?
The cruisers help to fend off fighters, the corvettes support the frigate against enemy destroyers, and have few ASA (anti-spacecraft artillery :lol:) turrets for defence. Frigates should have the most hull strength and cap weapons on at least two flanks... mounted on turrets with maybe 190-degree FOV, and ASA turrets on all six ends methinks. (Top, bottom, left, right, front, back)
Drawback to this is fighterbays - fighter wings will have to come from elsewhere. Iceni no got fighterbay and neither does a cruiser or a corvette.
If the GTVA Terran side sees the Hecate's failure in anti-cap firepower... maybe that'll be their temporary solution until a next-gen Orion (say Sirona for example) came into service? But I can't imagine them taking down the Hecate that early in its life though - seems pretty good as a mobile headquarters for plenty of fighters... (I feel tempted to bring INF's Warlock into the sentence, but nevermind.)
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Shivans may have 100 Juggernauts, 10 SSJ, a planet size ship but GTVA have a weapon of mass destruction... Alpha 1.
Enough said.
Nice signature, seems appropriate here...
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More Deimos like corvettes and the use of gunships being greatly increased.
I would see maneuverability being more important than armor, so yeah.
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I prefer Sobeks, personally, but thats a given.
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Well, if this were real life, which it isn't, the weapons would become so powerful that you would have mutually assured destruction. Especially since it seems the GTVA's motive is to defend itself against the Shivans at all costs, and the Shivans seem to plan to destroy the Terrans and Vasudans at all costs. That Meson bomb would've made a much larger explosion and done a huge amount more damage than it does in the game if it had the payload it says it does. Imagine more powerful weapons than that and you've got both sides being wiped out instantly.
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I prefer Sobeks, personally, but thats a given.
Definetly and you need corvettes with fighterbays, like the udjat. by the way Taristin what ship is this?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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An unreleased sistership to this unreleased ship (http://www.game-warden.com/raa/assets/randpics/cruise1.jpg)
Never really got around to finishing the turrets on them.
Looking at it now, the lights are all off on scale...
You can see them both in http://game-warden.com/raa/assets/Fleet.jpg
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In the post-Capella world, the GTVA would face som serious issues. The economy would likely tank and I think they would find it hard to replace their losses (especially if they decide to pour resources into a Knossos Project). You would probably see efforts for smaller ship designs (more corvettes and cruisers) and moving the destroyers even more toward carrier status to keep the odds of losing them down. The Hecate class, while a poor anti-cap ship, would make a great strike carrier, and I think that's where destroyer design would head as far as the GTVA is concerned. Also, the GTVA found a great weapon in the Meson Bomb, so they would look at the technology and try to find more practical uses for it (IE: Anti-cap beam weaponry).
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As others said GTVA's main firepower should be light ships, not super-uber gigants like Colossus that costs huge amounts of cash, requires 20 years to be built and can fall in one coordinated attack (even NTF could've bring him down if Bosh hadn't order forces to make run to Gamma Draconis). Shivan tech REing is quite troubleing, Sekhmet, GTVA beams and Kayser uses only small part of Shivan tech combined with GTVA one, Hades is another case, it's filled with Shivan electronic systems and must've cost a lot (remember that building it started during T-V War, prehaps GTVA has got one Hades under construction that would be released few years after Capella's destruction). Hecate was one of the largest Command's mistakes. It was supposed to be carrier and fleets' flagship, it is crap and unnessesery battle carrier with too weak AC weaponary to fight with Shivan destroyers and too small fighter capibility to be large threat for Shivans. Shortly - warship for everything, but for nothing. It can serve during next few years when the only threat are pirates with old fighters, bombers and modified freighters, but after that they must be either modified, scrapped or loaded with meson bombs.
One thing about GTVA's developement - GTVA must give itself at least 20 years to rebuild and modernize economy, research into new technologies and so on before building dream fleet. Also after some discussion we on freespace.pl realised that the only effective fleets to battle with Shivans are ones based on light forces (Guerrilla Fleet, two driffent fleets developed by c914 and me) or based on light forces supported by large capships (Battle-Guerrilla Fleet, developed by Mekton). I'll write more about them when I'll have more time.
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light forces supported by large capships
Think my idea should be similar to this... you have all classes, Fenris, Leviathan, Aeolus and Deimos all under the control of one or two Icenis, with maybe a Hecate camping behind for fighter support (along with some light anti-cap firepower in case Hecate gets attacked from rear flank)...
Against a Sath, they might probably do something similar to the Circle of Death like in MW4? And throw in several Artemis wings loaded with Stilettos to make the job less painful? Cut out the engine so they can't run, then bombard every last turret...? Maybe throw some bombers into the fray too...
I'm still a fan of "super-uber gigants" though. Like those battleships with the 3-barrel siege guns... BAMBAMBAM!!! Next salvo! BAMBAMBAM!!! :lol:
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Think my idea should be similar to this... you have all classes, Fenris, Leviathan, Aeolus and Deimos all under the control of one or two Icenis, with maybe a Hecate camping behind for fighter support (along with some light anti-cap firepower in case Hecate gets attacked from rear flank)...
Single Hecate is bad idea, you'd have only 150 fighters (remember Hecate was second biggest Command's error, if it had additional fighterbay with additional 150 fighters in place of all those crap beams, it'd be good carrier). And BTW by light forces I actually meant fighters, bombers and gunboats (imagine bigger Seraphim with Kaysers and fighterbeam in place of Shivan Light Lasers and you'll have nice view of what's gunboat :D ).
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Think my idea should be similar to this... you have all classes, Fenris, Leviathan, Aeolus and Deimos all under the control of one or two Icenis, with maybe a Hecate camping behind for fighter support (along with some light anti-cap firepower in case Hecate gets attacked from rear flank)...
Single Hecate is bad idea, you'd have only 150 fighters (remember Hecate was second biggest Command's error, if it had additional fighterbay with additional 150 fighters in place of all those crap beams, it'd be good carrier). And BTW by light forces I actually meant fighters, bombers and gunboats (imagine bigger Seraphim with Kaysers and fighterbeam in place of Shivan Light Lasers and you'll have nice view of what's gunboat :D ).
150 isn't half bad, I think the additional couple of squadrons more than makes up for the poor firepower on the Hecate, but it still maintains enough firepower to fend off cruisers, so the beams
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Having command ships with firepower concentrated forward is a very bad idea IMO. That type of ship is for hit and run attacks. Command ships should have guns covering as much of the ship as possible.
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Having command ships with firepower concentrated forward is a very bad idea IMO. That type of ship is for hit and run attacks. Command ships should have guns covering as much of the ship as possible.
Which type, the Iceni?
If that's the one you're referring to, well I suggested having the heavy guns on the side flanks instead of dead ahead ala "Shivan standard combat tactics except Luci"... I've been doing more modding than playing so I'm not too sure of the basic loadout myself.
Tohoho... :shaking:
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The most important thing for the GTVA right now is efficiency. With the combined devastation of their shipyards by the NTF and Shivans, They'll be looking to cut down on the niches that require special ships, so there are fewer designs to build. With fewer designs, they can pump out more of each ship. While these broad-application ships may not do the specialized roles as well as their predecessors, they'll be okay at most of the roles.
Towards this goal, the first goal would be to condense all the bombing tasks (heavy/light/strike) into one bomber that can do all three. In the light bomber role, it'd be fast, with enough payload so that a wing can take out anything up to a single Destroyer. For anything larger or for multiple targets (e.g. Destroyer with Cruiser escort), a pair of larger bomb bays (consisting of everything needed to carry and fire the largest bombs) would be attached to docking ports on the sides. These bays would allow the bomber to take out much larger targets, at the expense of its speed. Once empty, the bays could be jettisoned mid-battle, allowing the bomber to take out the larger targets, then switch down and dance around the cruisers.
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Does the game ever mention what sort of economy the GTVA runs on? If they simply decide to make the factories and such state-owned, they could just produce whatever they wanted....
if they just converted every industry to a state-owned industry, they could just not have to use money altogether...considering there's no one you have to buy things from, rather, no one else is really there to buy things from.
because i dont think the shivans would open trade with the GTVA anytime soon.
"Need a fleet annihilated? Don't look anywhere else! ObscenelySizedShivanArmadas Inc. is THE place to go for waaaay too much firepower!"
"Dial toll-free 1-800-SATH, and feel the awesomeness of 80 juggernauts and godknowshowmanyravanasandrakshasas TODAY!"
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juggalo or just clown?
Yeah I think cheap and highly destructive things will become more common. Monitors and such
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I can see a few things happening.
1) More hybridization of technologies with Terran, Vasudan, and Shivan reverse engineered technologies working their way into new ships. Whichever provides the best efficiency/firepower/capability will be incorporated. Given that the GTVA captured enough Mara's to use on a special ops mission this isn't outside the realm of possible. And since the GVB Sekhmet is already a product of that...
2) More specialization between Terran and Vasudan fleets and more integration of the fleets. Terran ships and designs will be focused on particular aspects that Terran designs do well at (ships like the Hercules for instance) while the Vasudans will focus on ships more suited to their strengths (like the Bakha, Thoth, Ulysses, etc.).
3) Fleets will focus on more versatile types with longer range weapons using things like subspace equipped missiles, anti-fighter/anti-bomber cruisers, and carrier/battleship like designs for dealing with the big stuff. Instead of building an all encompassing super ship there will be multiple smaller battleships with enough firepower together to deal with any of the really big super Shivan vessels.
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Me thinks that a widespread use of gunships and cruisers would be instated, and the GTVA would emphisize (i know i spelled it wrong) on things like installations and things that would bring the falling economy back on line.... there would still be a massive priority in defensive weapons, and a lesser but still prominent priority on offensive weapons...... oh, and no more juggers! ;)
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Unlike the rest of you I do see potentional juggernaut-class vessels in the GTVA's future, but they would operate in ways that are different from the way you all seem to percieve as the juggernaut role. Semi-mobile node defenses, rapid strikes against particularly critical targets followed by equally rapid withdrawal (the Sathanas can do it, why not a GTVA ship too?), mobile bases for extended operations beyond GTVA space.
It would, for example, be easier to build four juggernaut-type vessels equipped to blockade a node against a Shivan fleet then it would to build installations of similar capability at every node in GTVA space, or even every node to or in a frontier system.
And it must be remembered in terms of "Lessons Learned" that the Colossus was not a failure, but a success. It was lost because it was knowingly pitted against an enemy it was not equipped to properly combat, not because it was poorly designed. The ship was fine. It ate destroyers for lunch just like it was supposed to. The problem was the commanders.
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I think people don't realise that's pretty much the whole crux of the FS2 story.
The GTVA thniking they had a mtach for what the shivans could throw at them, only for the shivans to retort with a fleet none had imagined.
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Keep the fleet small, keep the shivans small?
True dat... no matter how much the GTVA "advances" the shivans advance at exactly the same pace.
Considering they were around 8000 years longer, I get the feeling the GTVA is being toyed with, for reasons unknown...
Then again, with only 2 data points, this is a rather tenous position...
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Im of the opinion that the shivans regard battling for space as a sort of secondary thing...like the loss of their fleet is sort of "eh."
considering how they never take over planets...never exploit resources...blow up capella...
Considering they were around 8000 years longer, I get the feeling the GTVA is being toyed with, for reasons unknown...
of course the GTVA is being toyed with. I quote Zeta 3
"Don't kid yourself. We're the ones being hunted here, pilot."
:D
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Well, duh! If the Shivans killed everything in the universe, it'd get awefully boring. They might have to resort to killing *gasp* eachother!
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You know, about the hypothesis that they are the universal policemen...
where do they expect species to go if they dont expand and grow? seriously...unless they expect humans to sit in churches and wait for the rapture.
which many people that i know would be content to do.
or is it more like the fire that clears away the dead growth and underbrush in the forest...a raging whirlwind of infernal destruction...that births the green tenderness of life.
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3) Fleets will focus on more versatile types with longer range weapons using things like subspace equipped missiles, anti-fighter/anti-bomber cruisers, and carrier/battleship like designs for dealing with the big stuff.
I can see this as an option, definately. Large, shielded meson, warheads, very powerful AI that is able to manoeuvre at higher rates than any Human/Vasudan and in very fast missile type casings. Think ICM's in space, capable of taking out a Sathanas if deployed in groups. They pop out of subspace in groups, detect hostile IFF's and head directly for them, evading hostile fighters at the same time.
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Trying to use subspace weapons against a species vastly more advanced than you are in subspace technologies strikes me as a really bad idea somehow though.
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Trying to use subspace weapons against a species vastly more advanced than you are in subspace technologies strikes me as a really bad idea somehow though.
You may be right, I just had ideas of the Dreadnought from Star Trek Voyager in my head for some reason! ::)
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Unlike the rest of you I do see potentional juggernaut-class vessels in the GTVA's future, but they would operate in ways that are different from the way you all seem to percieve as the juggernaut role. Semi-mobile node defenses, rapid strikes against particularly critical targets followed by equally rapid withdrawal (the Sathanas can do it, why not a GTVA ship too?), mobile bases for extended operations beyond GTVA space.
It would, for example, be easier to build four juggernaut-type vessels equipped to blockade a node against a Shivan fleet then it would to build installations of similar capability at every node in GTVA space, or even every node to or in a frontier system.
And it must be remembered in terms of "Lessons Learned" that the Colossus was not a failure, but a success. It was lost because it was knowingly pitted against an enemy it was not equipped to properly combat, not because it was poorly designed. The ship was fine. It ate destroyers for lunch just like it was supposed to. The problem was the commanders.
I agree, and the Colossus only went BOOM!!! 'cause they sacrificed themself to hold off that sathanas..... but what i think is that, though juggers rule, they would put WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to much a strain on the GTVA, who was just re-emerging from an onslaught in which they lost approx. half there fleet, and a massive ship that took 22 years to build just one of, and the shivans built almost a hundred, and thats only as far as us idiots know. :D (sorry, but our knowledge of shivans is like that ;) )
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of course the GTVA is being toyed with. I quote Zeta 3
"Don't kid yourself. We're the ones being hunted here, pilot."
:D
Zeta 3 is my favourite character in the entire game. As soon as that mission starts I order my wingmen to protect him. ;)
ngtm1r, I agree with you about juggernauts. Mobile bases were exactly what I had been thinking of for a potential mod (don't expect that mod any time soon, people, I can't mod worth crap yet). I don't see the GTVA pulling Sathanas-style strikes, however. It's not really their style, you know?
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fighting a war against one enemy and dividing resources is a waste, the development of two seperate stealth ships was foolish, the resources should have been pooled into one better stealth fighter with greater payload and havier armour
bombers with turrets, if only advanced flak turrets to keep missiles off their bombs
bombs in the conventional shockwave sense are wasted in an environment without the ground, cluster bombs on a larger scale to deal with entire systems of fighters, mine fields, DEW bombers <small beam weapons on bombers, long range, same damage as their bomb payload, directed so as to not waste the energy, use the space regularly devoted to ammo for componentry>
node buster missile, no reason to waste a cap ship every ime you are closing a node, create a giant cruse missile to be launched from a cap ship using meson tech to close the node for you
mobile knossos, reopen and reclose meson closed nodes for hit and run strikes against the shivan forces, including equipment captures, intelligence gathering, and weapons testing
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Lot's of AAF defences on ships...sh**loads. I'm talking gattling lasers, heavy flaks, anti-fighter beams galore.
Development of long-range weapons - hit the shivan bastards from a distance.
And last but not least - shivans are a offensive species.
They are not used to defend themselves but to attack - and their ships have that weakness. GTVA should have sepecific hunter groups of capships designed like shivans ones - as much anti-cap firepower as humanly possible concentrated at one point. These smal lgroups would be supported by carriers and scouts who would fins shivan targets. The hunters would then jump in fro the rear and BOOOOM....
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I'm talking gattling lasers
I tried your Hecate fully decked out with weapons similar to these. Capital ship-only, damage is roughly around the PromS per shot I think - I haven't checked the entry in a while. To simulate a Gatling effect I used "same turret cooldown".
None of the Shivan bombers got through, and only five or six bombs made it. Seraphim, Nephilim, Nahema, whatever. They all got trashed. I wouldn't want to fight a Hecate like that on my own... :nervous:
I admit this is mod-related though (plus there's still the "not-very-good" AI to consider), so it might not completely apply to the topic. But I do think that Gatling lasers would do wonders in keeping the heavily-shielded Shivan fighters at bay...
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Put Mehku lasers on a Fenris and you'll have a hard time killing it.
I made a science vessel that had nothing but Subach lasers (10 turrets). I barely killed it....
Now imagine something bigger with more guns with a bigger rate of fire :D
EDIT: If you D/L my models or campaign you should find a gattling turret in the tables..I used it only on the Excalibur in the campaign and only on two turrets. Try them out :D
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So Turey wants to go the Shivan way. Build as many ships as you can as terribly as you can. Throw them at your enemy and hope they run out of secondaries.....
We really need ships that'll last long....
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I believe one ideea to the future ships and fleets of the GTVA could be taken from the gremans in WW2. I mean they had ships with the firepower of a battleship and with the tonnage of a cruiser. Sure they had to sacrifice some armour but they were superb warships and a real threat to even the most powerfull of battleships. So go poketsize huge firepower.
Downsize the Orion lets say a byt get rid of some of its fighters not all just a squadron or 2 or more it depends add some more aaaf firepower to it get rid of some armour while maintainin the engines.
And there you have it a very fast warship with huge firepower good manouverabilaty. It will be cheaper and faster to produce.
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So Turey wants to go the Shivan way. Build as many ships as you can as terribly as you can. Throw them at your enemy and hope they run out of secondaries.....
We really need ships that'll last long....
I'm simply saying that there's no need to build six different types of ships when the Vasudans get away with three. Reducing the number of designs makes it easier to find replacement parts, and if the bombers are versatile enough, you'll suffer little to no performance hit. I'm not advocating increased fleet size, just a streamlining of the current large number of fighters/bombers that aren't needed. No one needs a Herc II when you can build a better Ares.
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Sure there's need. Some ships are tilted differently than others. The Orion doesn't carry as many fighters than the Hecate. If you were to go up against a capship with a significant fighter escort, you'd want to use the Hecate. If you wanted to take out a lot of capships that have little fighter escort, you'd use the Orion. You can't ever perfectly balance a ship, so you have different designs for different purposes.
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You can't ever perfectly balance a ship
You can get pretty freaking close. Give the myrmidon a bigger missile capacity and possibly more armor and that is pretty close.
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...and make it compatible with Harpoons.
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...and make it compatible with Harpoons.
Amen to that.
I think the pocketsize idea is the way to go. Also more more powerful engines...the fact that a shivan juggernaut can move at 20-30 km/s while our cruisers barely go that fast is appalling.
Basically just have a few classes, each specialized to excel at one thing while capable at others, and then have them all support each other. The Vasudan fleets are excellent, and they DO have a drasticallly smaller number of ship classes. Plus the idea of NOT retrofitting and building new ships, and just building new ones was a good idea too...to me the Hatshepsut is an excellent example of this. Just about as capable as the Orion at ship-to-ship, and just about as capable as the Hecate at AF. Not as good at either category as either of the Terran destroyers, but i would give a hatshepsut better survivability than a lone Orion or a lone Hecate.
Plus, its supported well by the Sobek corvette, for flanking attacks on enemy destroyers, and perhaps an AF screen of two/three mentus. Perhaps.
A capable battlegroup of say, 5 ships, maybe 3 if you scrap the mentus
While a Terran battlegroup would be an Orion battlegroup, which needs a lot of fighter/corvette cover, supporting cruisers which need fighter cover themselves, (except for the sadly discontinued aeolus), bombers to lessen the anticapship load placed on the orion, more fighters to cover the bombers, which are a mix of Great War Ursas and modern Boanerges, both almost incapable of dogfighting (not that the Ursa CANT defend itself, it just has a hard time doing so)....
which is a lot less concise (and im guessing a lot more expensive), than a few modern capships supported by modern fighters/bombers. Sekhmet, anyone?
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I believe one ideea to the future ships and fleets of the GTVA could be taken from the gremans in WW2. I mean they had ships with the firepower of a battleship and with the tonnage of a cruiser. Sure they had to sacrifice some armour but they were superb warships and a real threat to even the most powerfull of battleships. So go poketsize huge firepower.
Downsize the Orion lets say a byt get rid of some of its fighters not all just a squadron or 2 or more it depends add some more aaaf firepower to it get rid of some armour while maintainin the engines.
And there you have it a very fast warship with huge firepower good manouverabilaty. It will be cheaper and faster to produce.
Thats a very good idea. It worked very well in WWII and I think given the context of how this game works it could work very well. It'd be a pocket "destroyer" in the FreeSpace sense. Smaller than a Hecate but with perhaps similar or greater firepower to an Orion. You'd probably have to sacrifice the hit points and big fighter bays to make it work but thats a good idea. Have the corvettes operate in a supporting anti-cap role and cruisers for your defense screen and you've got quite the fleet!
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it'd be nice to see mjolnirs onevery jump node
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Heh, that wouldn't be a bad idea as such, but it smacks of Eve Online.
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Some obvious things for the warships is at least crazily long lasting beams, or normal beams that recharge faster. The gtva will be sticking with what they do best in AAA defense (probably be leaning towards subach turrets instead of blob turrets, i believe the subach was a cheap weapon to produce). Also what the gtva was good at doing fighter and bomber deployments, not to mention the gtva has much superior fighters, and superior weapons for those fighters.
The gtva might put its interest in shielding warships like the lucifer, but probably not since that sounds like something that would suck up too much money and time. Warships would most likely have better armor since the gtva is studying shivan armor and other shivan tech that was readily captured during both wars (not to mention shivan debris). The one major plus side to the gtva actually being able to shield a warship in the way that the lucifer was is that you could completely reduce the amount of flak and laser turrets and antifighter beams (why have all that antifighter power on a warship like a destroyer if you have something as impervious as a lucifer which it's only weakness was beam fire).
Shielded destroyers would be a nice thing, it would just release fighters, be impervious to enemy bombs and projectiles, and pretty much just have an anti-capship armament. That's only if the gtva managed to shield warships.
What i really wanted to go after was the fact that the gtva should still go after juggernauts when the time permits them to do so. The thing that i think was really the flaw in the colossus was how long it took to build it. It was one whole complete ship. My idea for juggernauts is to compartmentalize them. Do like what one dude did in the modding forum. Have a huge mounting aparatus, and then build a whole bunch of chunks to attatch to it. It'd be a lot cheaper and faster to build, and certainly would get the economy going by having a ton of contractors building chunks for the juggernaut.
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What i really wanted to go after was the fact that the gtva should still go after juggernauts when the time permits them to do so. The thing that i think was really the flaw in the colossus was how long it took to build it. It was one whole complete ship. My idea for juggernauts is to compartmentalize them. Do like what one dude did in the modding forum. Have a huge mounting aparatus, and then build a whole bunch of chunks to attatch to it. It'd be a lot cheaper and faster to build, and certainly would get the economy going by having a ton of contractors building chunks for the juggernaut.
many aircraft companies do that, wouldn't be too far a leap to believe military contracters in the freeality <I'm so sorry, it was just so cheesy I HAD to do it> would follow suit
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Mekton's Battle-Guerrilla GTVA Armada after 70 years:
In first years after IIGW GTVA should spend most resources on rebuilding and modernising economy. The rest should be spent on technology developement and only few on building new forces. After 20 years GTVA should have around 2 carriers (modified Hecate with removed beams and added second hangar), around 5 AC destroyers (modified Orions and Hatshepsuts with removed hangars and boosted AC firepower), around 15 corvettes (Deimoses and Sobeks) and around 40 cruisers (Mentus and modified Aeoluses without SGreens).
Second part involes building first prototype GTVA fleet using new technologies in next 10 years. More resources are spent on tech developement. Forces built in first 20 years are transferred to reserve. Here are new GTVA desings:
- Supercarrier (4km long with 800 fighters stationing in 8 huge hangars and very weak AF defence, but 3 separate jump drives allowing it to constantly change position, flagship of all future fleets, it's supposed to stay away from dangerous zones and battles hiding in locations where it's hard to locate it)
- Tactical Carrier (2km long with four hangars for 250 fighters and 3 jump drives, it's smaller supercarrier with better weaponary as it works closer to dangerous zones, both good AF and defense AC)
- Light Carrier (1,5km long with two hangars for 100 fighters and 2 jump drives, even smaller version of supercarrier, low stats (0,5 km smaller than tactical carrier but 150 fighters less), but cheap to produce)
- Escort Destroyer (2km long with both strong AF and AC and two jump drives, used to escort supercarriers)
- Assault Corvette (1km long with very weak AF, but huge AC including two medium beam cannons and two torpedo bays with special torpedoes, there are only two of them in each bay due to their huge size, but they're very devastating, two jump drives, used in hit&run against large targets like Sathanases)
- Escort Corvette (1km long, modified version of Assault Corvette, medium AF and AC, two jump drives, used in everything, from escort duties to attacks on small enemy groups)
- Escort Cruiser (400m long, powerfull AF and weak defence AC, two jump drives, used mainly in escort duties).
There are also gunboats. They're basicly larger Seraphims with powerfull weaponary. There are three versions of them: Space Superiority in dealing with multiple fighters, Assault with 16 gunmounts in froward used in dogfights (but rather crappy when fighting with agile fighters), wiping out cruisers and anti-subsystem attacks on larger capships and Torpedo, some kind of hyper-bomber able to take down juggernauths or even superjuggernauths in large numbers. They're repaired and rearmed by Logistics, 400m support ships without any weaponary, but able to repair four gunboats at the same time. Gunboats doesn't need carriers and can stay in space for few days without need of restocking supplies.
Count of vessels in the end of second phase (around):
- 2 Supercarriers
- 10 Tactical Carriers
- 30 Light Carriers
- 5 Escort Destroyers
- 10 Assault Corvettes
- 75 Escort Corvettes
- 150 Escort Cruisers.
Third phase involes building final armada that's able to destroy forces much larger than Sathanas' Armada from IIGW (it ends 70 years after it). Count of capital ships from second phase (around):
- 25 Supercarriers
- 100 Tactical Carriers
- 250 Light Carriers
- 80 Escort Destroyers
- 180 Assault Corvettes
- 600 Escort Corvettes
- 1500 Escort Cruisers
New Capships classes:
- 20 Battleships (3km with 2 jump drives, very weak AF, but huge AC concentrated in front able to take down even Sathanas single-handely)
- 3 SuperJuggernauths (15km, 2 jump drives, powerfull AC, mainly concentrated in 4 powerfull front beam cannons, large AF)
- 4 Stealth Carriers (modified Tactical Carriers, 50 fighters less and stripped down AF defence, but impossible to hit by capships unless tagged, owned by SOC, carries only stealth fighters and bombers)
- Kamikadze Juggernauth (this unique desing has got no armament and only one jump drive, but it's filled with antimatter and devices to hold it, its explosion is like minature Supernova, its impact on planet's surface could completly destroy it, Gargant could be taken down even from distance of 200km)
- Wave Juggernauth (the most powerfull ship in GTVA armada that costed horrendous amount of cash, but it was finally finished, it's quite like Kamikadze Juggernauth, but insted of antimatter, it's armament is mighty Wave Cannon that creates huge shockwave that spreads through whole space, 10km warship can be taken down from distance of 35km, fire rate of that cannon is however one shot per 24 hours, it has smaller firepower than Kamikadze Juggernauth, but it's one use ship).
From smaller desings there are also stealth gunboats (three version similar to ones from phase II, but weaker) and Logistics.
Weaponary involes upgraded beams using new technology, Dristruptor Beams (something like normal beams, but does no damage to hull, instead it creates large EMP explosion on impact that can destroy several subsystems ant turrets on enemy capships, used mainly on ships that are AF/Carrier dedicated like Tactical Carrier or Escort Cruiser), Supression Turrets (MSes for capships, used mainly on AF/Carrier dedicated), upgraded AAA beams (two types, one sniper-like with low fire rate, but long range and power enough to take down gunboat in single shot, second more like standard AAA, but constantly shots following target) and upgraded flaks (both conventional and energy).
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........... wha? and again, .......................... wha? and also, huh? and, of course, :wtf: :eek2:
:jaw:
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Hybridized fleets, focus on strategic weapons, specialized and generalized warships.
To elaborate, the GTVA may have a handful of vessels nearly Colossus sized as deep range explorers to scout out potential Shivan invasion points. (similar to the "mighty ships exploring the nodes of the ancients" bit some of the earliest FS2 previews hinted that the plot was going to be)
The actual main fleet however would be built around anti-fighter and bomber cruisers (Aeolus), anti-cruiser corvettes (think a Deimos but with fewer antifighter defenses and a small hangar), carriers (somewhat like the TCS Midway in WC: Prophecy, lots of fighters heavilly armored but few defenses so it relies on cruiser escort), and anti-juggernaut destroyers. (golgotha type)
Similarly fighters and weapons would be more focused. Fewer hybrid classes.
One of the largest changes I would make in a sequel is having shield projectors on capital ships, turrets that create shield arcs. Shielded shivan ships instead of projectors would have the shield integrated with the hull structure but reactors power shield integrity. Fighters and bombers can fly inside of the shielding, but generally the best thing is for interceptors to disable shields with a followup bombing run and then beam strike.
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PLZ tell me, WTF did you spend hours writing that up?
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He didn't, he just copied from the Polish forum.
That guy's idea is somewhat similar to Inferno's stuff, at least the first 'phase':
Supercarrier = GTCa Warlock, GVCa Tanen
Tactical Carrier = GTCa Lenaeus, GTCa Rahotep
Light Carrier = GTCa Aristaeus (Notus launcher, scrapped)
Escort Destroyer = GTD Raynor, GVD Asarte
Assault Corvette = GTCv Phobos, GVCv Imuit
Escort Corvette = GTCv Alexandria (May have been scrapped), GVCv Geb
Escort Cruiser = GTC Bellerophon, GVC Selket
Wave Juggernaut = TSJ Icanus (Sort of, the basic idea of a super cannon)
So whaddya think? Will his idea be included in .::Earth Defense::.?
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one use per chassis says to me waste of money, doesn't matter how powerful it is, if it is one use per chassis the thing damn well better be cheap
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Small tactical ships are much better.
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Better corvettes. More flanking assaults. A Sobek can do SERIOUS damage to a ravana if approached from the right angle.
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What about modifiable ships? You could send them out on a mission, get the job done, bring them back, put pre-made "pods" that can quickly attach to a vessel on, then send it right back out. It'd be cheap, quick, and easy. Sorta.
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modular multi role would be the pentagons wet dream, the reason it doesn't work for planes <well....... it does..... to an extent>
okay, the reason it doesn't TOTALLY work for planes is they are limited by air frame, an f-22 can't pull awacs duty because it just can't have that gear and still fly like they want
in space that is less of a problem, all you have to worry about then is engine power and fuel consumption, then it's all economical
build lots of cheap multi role fighters <mini awacs\bombers, fighter\intercepter\stealth> just swap engine pods\armor plating, have the perseus A, pers B pers C, slight if any cosmetic variation, different electronics and engine pods, have identical chassis for the three and modular pods being the only real variant
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I wonder how long it takes to build an arcadia?
That could be a reasonable time table for building something close to the size of a juggernaut. Gtva should definitely have a tactical weapon that could disrupt shivan communications of any kind. I don't know if it could be done, but shivans talk to each other relaying messages to the shivan next to them using the electromagnetic spectrum. Find a way to neutralize shivan communication, and that would be a nice disruption.
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Shivans communicate through a 'quantum pulse', but you know. Disrupting Shivan communication wouldn't work on rebels, though, so it would only work on the Shivans. Find a way to disrupt certain (radio? subspace?) frequencies, such as non-GTVA frequencies and it would put a major set back on the enemy.
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Find a way to disrupt certain (radio? subspace?) frequencies, such as non-GTVA frequencies and it would put a major set back on the enemy.
In theory, the EMP Pulse missile could do that. Just think what happens when you launch one of them and you are too close to the target.
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But that would screw up your own frequency too, right?
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But that would screw up your own frequency too, right?
Yes, I was editing my post when you were writing...
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- Kamikadze Juggernauth (this unique desing has got no armament and only one jump drive, but it's filled with antimatter and devices to hold it, its explosion is like minature Supernova, its impact on planet's surface could completly destroy it, Gargant could be taken down even from distance of 200km)
that's a cargo with subspace engines, not a juggernaught... :D...yay, a BIG cargo...
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................. :doubt:
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It would need a "supercap" flag to move, however, not a Cargo flag (any flag from cruiser to supercap actually).
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It would need a "supercap" flag to move, however, not a Cargo flag (any flag from cruiser to supercap actually).
yes, that's true... but a disarmed supercap is not a supercap, for me... :D (and i don't know how to use flags...)... anyway, are we going to see these models somewhere?
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The GArgant can't be disabled,sis you know it?
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No engine subsystem....
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Then how does the FS2 engine have it move???
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Then how does the FS2 engine have it move???
Also the SFf Damini from Inferno R1 doesn't have the engine subsystem, but it moves...
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What about modifiable ships? You could send them out on a mission, get the job done, bring them back, put pre-made "pods" that can quickly attach to a vessel on, then send it right back out. It'd be cheap, quick, and easy. Sorta.
I have something like that in mind myself, though it developed from the Helios-barrage corvette. Reloading 120 (or 240 if it fired both broadsides) tubes one by one would be prohibitive, so the launchers were mounted in removable cells and can be replaced in 15 minutes or so. Then I went and made a number of other "cell" types.
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Then how does the FS2 engine have it move???
Also the SFf Damini from Inferno R1 doesn't have the engine subsystem, but it moves...
You just need to apply a speed value to the table, iirc, you don't even need an Engine glow. All the Subsystem settings tell the Engine to do is allow you to target it, if you omit it, then the ship will still behave according to the velocity entries.
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You just need to apply a speed value to the table, iirc, you don't even need an Engine glow. All the Subsystem settings tell the Engine to do is allow you to target it, if you omit it, then the ship will still behave according to the velocity entries.
:drevil:
SDG- and Stiletto-invulnerable ships coming your way soon...
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Thing I posted is short version of Mekton's fleet posted on freespace.pl (yeah, he worked four days on it). It definitly won't find itself in Earth Defence, the only place where it would find itself is one Mekton's projects that he plans to realise after Phoenix (for which you'll have to waid at least three years :P ). And I doubt it's even 10% as Inferno. Here's correction:
- Supercarrier - shorter Tanen without beam cannons, stripped down AF and with larger (and more) fighterbays
- Tactical Carrier - Rahothep with stronger AF and AC in cost of fighter capibility
- Escort Destroyer - Raynor without hangar and with better AC
- Assault Corvette - Geb without hangar and much better AC
- Escort Corvette - longer Phobos with better both AF and AC
- Escort Cruiser - longer Joh with much better AF and little better AC
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Shivans communicate through a 'quantum pulse', but you know. Disrupting Shivan communication wouldn't work on rebels, though, so it would only work on the Shivans. Find a way to disrupt certain (radio? subspace?) frequencies, such as non-GTVA frequencies and it would put a major set back on the enemy.
*Cough* The Babel Device *Cough*
Goes back into the shadows.
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Mm, keep plugging your defunct campaigns :p
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ETAK? What are you going to do with that? Spam them to death?
(I know what you mean, I just wanted to say that)
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ETAK? What are you going to do with that? Spam them to death?
(I know what you mean, I just wanted to say that)
JAD anyone?
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Shielded turrets would be a useful addition, and it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to pull off.
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if the shivans could shield an entire destroyer, I dont see why not...
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Shielded turrets would be a useful addition, and it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to pull off.
At least one OTT ship has this...
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@Colossus/GTVA Juggernauts
I say why not? 20 Years to build says nothing. Remember in Starwars you see the build of the first Death Star startet at the end of RotS and it was ready in AnH. 19 Years... but the second Death Star was verry faster build. 2-3 Years after AnH the most work was done. Perhaps after 1 or 2 Years it could be finished. And why these differences? The answer is easy. In the first construcktion happend many misstakes. Many Systems must be redesined, because they didn't work as wantet. But after finishing the Death Star Project the Empire had the knowhow to build faster.
I think the next GTVA Juggernaut could be ready 5 Years after the build started.
@Destroyer Shildsystems
I dont think this is realistic... in the fs1 cutszene we see that by creating a shild the poweloss is over 30%. By an Fighter or Bomber this is not much... but by an Destroyer???
The only capital ship that has a shildsystem was the Lucifer. The Sathanas hadn't one and all other shivan craft hadn't too. I think the Lucifer was a special Ship. Pherhaps as a Blockaderunner?
It jumps to the enemy fortress, get in all firepower and destroy one enemy craft after the other.
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@Colossus/GTVA Juggernauts
I say why not? 20 Years to build says nothing. Remember in Starwars you see the build of the first Death Star startet at the end of RotS and it was ready in AnH. 19 Years... but the second Death Star was verry faster build. 2-3 Years after AnH the most work was done. Perhaps after 1 or 2 Years it could be finished. And why these differences? The answer is easy. In the first construcktion happend many misstakes. Many Systems must be redesined, because they didn't work as wantet. But after finishing the Death Star Project the Empire had the knowhow to build faster.
I think the next GTVA Juggernaut could be ready 5 Years after the build started.
@Destroyer Shildsystems
I dont think this is realistic... in the fs1 cutszene we see that by creating a shild the poweloss is over 30%. By an Fighter or Bomber this is not much... but by an Destroyer???
The only capital ship that has a shildsystem was the Lucifer. The Sathanas hadn't one and all other shivan craft hadn't too. I think the Lucifer was a special Ship. Pherhaps as a Blockaderunner?
It jumps to the enemy fortress, get in all firepower and destroy one enemy craft after the other.
While building a second Colossus would be much faster, it would still cost a hell of a lot to produce. Personally, I think smaller, specialized ships is the way to go as far as Sathanas-killing goes.
Also, while shielding an entire ship would be very difficult, shielding only its individual turrets shouldn't be extremely difficult to do.
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Maybe, just maybe have one colossus to deal with destroyer/corvette/cruiser class ships (if you want to take em out in large numbers). The colossus excels at that; it can engage multiple destroyers simultaneously and come out on top. smaller ships dont even factor in; colossus pretty much sneezes and theyre gone.
the problem is when you get into the bigger ships (+1 superdestroyer, juggernaut), the colossus cant do so well. so to deal with this, you specialize and build smaller ships that arent as big of targets and have the maneuverability[sic] to hit them on their weak spots. remember how the maahes, a simple corvette, hit the sathanas on its flanks, and came out alive? imagine a monitor class warship, about frigate/corvette sized, with two huge caliber(BF) guns or something. that could do some real damage against the juggernaut, and leave, or outmaneuver the juggernaut when it tried to give a big BFRed hug with its arms.
so then, if you have that much firepower on a smaller ship, then just use it against the other ships. try some surprise attacks, some gambits a la adm. koth, etc., and you win.
No need for a juggernaut that took twenty+ years to build. And, you can distribute the 30,000 officers and crew around, instead of losing that much experience if the juggernaut goes down.
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Putting all that time and money into making a second Colossus is a complete waste of resources. If it goes down, boom, a waste of time. Making a smaller, more powerful ship with specialised weapons is the way to go. Building Colossus II would NOT take five years either, because building the Colossus took many companies, and the cost of paying those companies? And with the turmoil the GTVA's already in, do you think they would bother to build something that failed to do its duty? It is also to be noted that the Colossus can't use all its beams at once, as evidenced by High Noon. The Colossus couldn't manage the energy drain on all of its reactors. So all those BFGreens, LRBGreens, BGreens and TerSlashes you see can't be used since it would put a major strains on the reactor.
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Ähm.... @Smaller Ships with BFGreen
As wtf_cl0vvn wrote, the Big Ships Colossus reaktor couldn't manage to drain enough energy... how a smaller ship could be able to use a BFGreen with a verry smaler reaktor-system?
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I dont know, how do the shivans mount an LRed on a cruiser?
If you get a really really powerful reactor core, and get nearly all of the power going towards weapons, you might....remember that the Colossus also has to provide for, what, over 6 dozen weapons systems? not to mention life support for over 30,000 people, as well as power for internal transport to get across the damn thing, and for the equipment necessary to service a fighter complement of 240...etc.
Basically build a (relatively) small ship with a big and powerful reactor core and dont waste it on so much other stuff. It would have, say, the BFGreen, and a few point defence turrets or something (make them something like HL-7s).
Youd have to provide fighter cover, or flank it with an AF cruiser, or both, but im sure it would be more economic than building a huge f***ing colossus so that we can lose twenty years worth of work, not to mention 30k+ experienced officers and men, when a sathy decides to give it a great big BFRed salute.
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Given that nothing in the current GTVA fleet has BFGreens I find it rather unbelievable that a cruiser could mount one.
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@wtf_cl0vvn
If you are able to build a reactor that is powerfull enogh for BFGreens, AND small enogh to put it in a Cruiser, how powerfull must a reactor builded with the same technologie be that you put in a Juggernaut...
And how much power this reactor can put in a Beamweapon? This must be a Ultra-Beam thats eats Juggernauts with one or two shoots.
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Well, its going to be bigger than cruiser sized...the shivans, with all of their amazing technology, can mount only a destroyer caliber gun on the Lilith.
Ok, so theyre not exactly BFGreens, but some Juggernaut caliber gun. Perhaps MjolnirBeams? IIRC those are about as powerful as BFGreens.
also, recall that the Colossus has god-knows-how-many reactors...not just one.
My point is also that this ship is pretty much built around the gun (or guns). Its not designed to be able to singlehandedly kill a juggernaut, fight off two or three Destroyers, pulverize several cruisers and corvettes, and vaporize the swarms of fighters that they bring on.
Its just that gun (or guns). Sure, its going to suck at point defence, and any angle but the front is going to be very vulnerable, but thats not the point.
If you put the reactor in a Juggernaut sized ship, you get a Juggernaut sized target. IF it gets taken down, you will lose that huge of an investment.
If you put it in a smaller sized ship, you get a smaller sized target. Should it get taken down, the loss will not be nearly as severe as the loss of a juggernaut.
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Y'know, a reactor isn't going to be the only thing determining the power and efficacy of a beam turret.
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Considering we're building the ship around the gun, I'd say the beam would be built pretty well...no chintzy heatsinks.
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So basicly it would just be a BFGreen with engines?
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sort of.
my point here is that it would be much more efficient than a huge fecking juggernaut...
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Why not just build a worthy successor to the Mjollnir instead.
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Something like the Gorgon cannon would be cool to see. A meson cannon that one-shots Ravanas? Yes please!
Although it would be much more efficient if it didn't blow itself up afterwards...
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The Gorgon Cannon had to be powered by the Meson thing. I suspect it was quite expensive and unstable (it blew up).
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Plus it was fanon
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Why not just build a worthy successor to the Mjollnir instead.
Because if a Moloch gets the jump, the mjollnir is screwed.
If you give it engines, the Mjolnir can escape, or possibly turn around and hit, or maybe get the jump on the moloch (or juggernaut)
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Rig four docking points on the back of the Mjolnir? And make it so that you need four Hercs tow one Mjolnir (and slave the computer controls of three of the ships to one "master" Herc - this'll cut down operation of the Herc+Mjolnir to one pilot. An idea to MechWarrior3's C3 slave/master system anyone? Or whatever it was...)
Rather cheapo though... but I have no idea how to input strafing capability on it... It'll be a huge advantage if the Mjolnir+quad Herc hackjob can strafe meguesses.
An alternative way would be to rig a single dockpoint behind the Mjolnir, and have it towed or something. Those guys on the Inferno boards know exactly what I mean... :lol:
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build a mjolnir fighter? take a mjolnir, put in a second reactor, add a cockpit and quad of kaiser turrets, send out a wing of thm to park around a juggernaut, that way you don't have to worry about not being able to use all your fire points because your fire points manuever to be able to shoot the target, have the vette or carrier or whatever do fightr suppression and you're home free
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Plus it was fanon
Geez, Mars, this is in a thread talking about fanon, besides, most of the stuff here isn't canon anyway, what difference does the Gorgon Cannon make? :doubt:
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It makes grumpy old canon addicts upset :P
Don't worry... I just didn't get coffee / nicotine yesterday.
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I drank some crappy milk this morning too, actually...
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Just don't smoke and you'll be okay :nod:
Seriously though I think the best idea is the one floating around right now... a Monitor a little ship with a big ass gun. They would have to travel with an escort, but they'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than the 80+ Juggernauts it would take to destroy 80+ Juggernauts
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Maybe a Mjolnir with the power of the Icanus attached to a transport....
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Just don't smoke and you'll be okay :nod:
Seriously though I think the best idea is the one floating around right now... a Monitor a little ship with a big ass gun. They would have to travel with an escort, but they'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than the 80+ Juggernauts it would take to destroy 80+ Juggernauts
The Golgotha would do nicely.
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I'd rather have a half-dozen Apothess destroyers. Seriously, good-bye Sathani. Even an Inferno-ified Sathanas can't stand up to a simultaneous attack by six Apothess's.
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About Lilith topic: look closer at FS2 campagin. You can see only ONE Lilith compared to 10 encountered Cains. There are two possible explainations:
- Lilith is horrible expensive so it can't be mass-built
- Lilith is next-generation Cain that was put into production recently and there's still plenty of Cains in service.
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About Lilith topic: look closer at FS2 campagin. You can see only ONE Lilith compared to 10 encountered Cains. There are two possible explainations:
- Lilith is horrible expensive so it can't be mass-built
- Lilith is next-generation Cain that was put into production recently and there's still plenty of Cains in service.
I disagree with both of those statements. The first one says the Shivans have to pay their workers and pay for their raw materials. If this was so, how much money would it take to build the Sathy fleet? A few googleplex ShivoTokens? :P
As for the second, if it was the next-gen Cain then it wouldn't be next-gen anymore since they've been in service for 32 (likely much more) years. But then again the Shivans are a super ancient race and probably don't evolve much, so it could well be a new design (in Geographical terms :P)
My views touch on the whole 'Shivan theories' place. So if you're Mars and are obsessed with canon only info, don't read on.
I believe the Shivans were originally a large super race which used FS1-style ships like the Lucy and the Cain. But they were separated into groups due to some war of somesort, and have been separated into 2 (encountered) groups. The first being the FS1 shivans, with no beams. They are conciderably smaller than the other Shivan groups, and are technologically behind, with no beam capable warships except for the Lucifer. Because the Lucy was the only ship that was capable of world devastation and all that, they had to keep it alive, so they shielded it. They were trying to join up with one of the larger groups so they went on an exodus around the Galaxytm to find one. The second Shivan group encountered was a much ( much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much) larger group, perhaps one of the largest. They had evolved more rapidly, because they weren't on somesort of exodus. They were using their comm nodes to look for other Shivan groups. Their ships were more advanced, including the Astaroth, Moloch, Sath, etc. class ships. However, they had abandoned the Lilith (encountered once), Lucifer (not encountered) and Demon (encountered once) class ships. However, the Cain class was a strike cruiser so it was not phased out. Also, the Lilith cruiser could be unstable because it had such a big beam cannon, so it was phased out. The same can be said for the Lucy because it had a shielding system.
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Really, the Lucy is just a Cain with invulnerable shields (invulnerable by Great War weaponry, but the Icanus...)
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Another reason to protect it.
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I thought the common idea was Inferno was canon in the FS universe? According to this community anyway.
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I thought the common idea was Inferno was canon in the FS universe? According to this community anyway.
No
Canon = was in FS1, FS1:ST, or FS2
Non-canon = anything else
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I thought the common idea was Inferno was canon in the FS universe? According to this community anyway.
*Shoots self*
What next? The Shivan Manifesto?
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Snail - about first one I didn't told it well. About "expensive" I meant it uses some kind of hard-to-produce reactors, very rare minerals or something like that. BTW I always wondered why Shivan fleet from FS1 was much weaker if it comes to technology than one from FS2. I found it very hard to explain, few possibilities are:
- they had problems somewhere else and must've sent quickly-repaired old ships like old Lucy and Demons without flaks, beams and so on
- they didn't want to beat GTVA completly but instead give them chances to win
- Ancients were destroyed by another, powerfull race and Shivans only got their technologies.
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I thought the common idea was Inferno was canon in the FS universe? According to this community anyway.
*Shoots self*
What next? The Shivan Manifesto?
Yup. And then the Capellan Barbecue Theory. :lol:
Oh, and Snail, I really hate those "These aren't the same Shivans" theories.
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I thought the common idea was Inferno was canon in the FS universe? According to this community anyway.
Someone put that in the Freespace wikipedia entry. It was removed as soon as it was noticed as it's absolute nonsense. Inferno is just a campaign amongst many others. In fact given that Derelict beats in every single poll it would be a bloody strange choice even if the community were stupid enough to elevate one campaign above all others.
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As much as I like Inferno, I agree.....
But what happend, exactly?
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And people wonder why I'm a canon whore on the wiki :p
As much as I like Inferno, I agree.....
But what happend, exactly?
What happened where?
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Really in the FS future I don't even see Golgotha like ships happening... I see large glorified bombers and Monitors... maybe that missile corvette... and many more fighters.
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Well, a destroyer armed with a BFGreen is sort of a monitor....
Exactly what was said to make people think Inferno was canon? And in which article? The one I created?
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Here is a damn good question: Exactly when did the Collie failed at its "original" pourpose?
The answer is never. In fact it performed remarkebly well for a GTVA vessel on its first missions out.
The Collie was NEVER suposed to engage ships anywhere near its size or power not to mention that the Sath actualy has more firepower mounted on its forward firing ark then the entire broadside of the Collie !
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Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. :rolleyes:
Without a doubt, the Colossus succeeded at its role of area denial to enemy fleets, and she would have undoubtedly have proven effective against a Lucy had she faced one, but the fact remains that the design is logically flawed. Having one, all-powerful vessel is all well and good, but it simply cannot beat the force-projection of a number of smaller vessels. Moreover, whereas the loss of a Colossus-class would be a crippling blow to the GTVA, the odds of losing a similar amount of materials & crew when dealing with fleet of smaller vessels is miniscule in comparison.
The merits of the Colossus-class are a moot point in this arguement. The future of the GTVA lies with fleets of smaller, more specialised vessels, as most contributors to this thread have already pointed out.
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Meson Torpedoes carried by ships ala the Earthshaker by Hamano could be a good idea too.
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I always imagined that after Capella, Command would look to find ways to quickly take out Shivan Juggernauts. A new Colossus would have to match an SJ, at the least, and at most be able to outright destroy one with no problem and maybe be able to engage multiple Saths. But building a huge fleet of these Juggernauts would not be an option, since the Colossus took so much time to build. So, the GTVA would have to come up with new technologies in the interim that would be capable of taking on huge fleets of Sathani quickly. The answer, a new type of bomber, specially designed to take on Sathani, a strategic bomber. It's sort of like how new American Bombers after WWII went from tactical to strategic bombing. This is the case for this bomber. A single meson bomb is probably powerful enough to destroy or seriously disable a Sathanas. So these bombers would be decisive in these engagements. These bombers would be large, nearly the size of a small ship, and capable of intersystem jumps, standard. In battle, they'd likely be escorted by at least a wing of fighters and possibly even some tactical bombers to handle any small capital ship that gets in the way. The bomber itself would have at least two defensive turrets, one a flak gun, and the other an anti-fighter beam, and would have a crew of about five, like a modern B-52.
The task force would have to find a way to escape the meson blast, and that could be done in one of two ways. The ships in the task force could be equipped with some sort of "rocket boosters" (no doubt it can be called a "fusion booster" or some other technical jargon) that would fire once the payload has been delivered. These boosters would be designed to burn long enough to get all the ships at least three kilometers away from the bomb in a short period. The bomb itself would latch on to the target and delay detonation until a certain period of time, just enough for the task force escape. The strategic bombers would not unleash their payloads until they were very close to the target.
Another way is to redesign the meson itself so that it becomes a shaped charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge), focusing all its blast energy on the target. This would have the added effect of making the weapon much more damaging to its target, definitely making one meson bomb lethal for a Sathanas. The task force might still need boosters to get far enough away from the Sath as it explodes.
The strategic bomber concept should be very effective against the Shivans. The GTVA should be able to create a large multitude of these task forces quickly. They would be so effective that it would put the Shivans on the defensive and would not engage their SJs unless they knew that these task forces were destroyed. So using them to early might be detrimental. So, what I think the GTVA should do is build one or two Juggernauts, to make it look like the GTVA is looking to destroy the Sathani using conventional means. The plan is that destroying one or two Sathani with this Juggernaut would convince the Shivans to bring out their whole fleet of Jugs, at this point this is where the GTVA unleashes their strategic bomber task force, to try to take out all of these Saths at once. No doubt many will escape and then the GTVA will go into pursuit. This might lead the GTVA to the Shivans' homeworld or home ship, whatever the case may be.
These strategic bomber groups would have the effect of leveling the playing field, in the end. These Stategic bombers would be inefective against regular destroyers since they would be exploiting the weaknesses of the SJ's near defenseless rear. Against regular destroyers, they wouldn't be able to get close enough. The final battles between the GTVA and the Shivans would be between more conventional platforms such as the Destroyer. This final war would be a fight to the death, with only three possibilities, death of the GTVA, death of the Shivans, or possibly a peace deal brokered by Admiral Bosch.
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I thought the common idea was Inferno was canon in the FS universe? According to this community anyway.
Someone put that in the Freespace wikipedia entry. It was removed as soon as it was noticed as it's absolute nonsense. Inferno is just a campaign amongst many others. In fact given that Derelict beats in every single poll it would be a bloody strange choice even if the community were stupid enough to elevate one campaign above all others.
Not only that, but at the very least I find Inferno's story (at least the R1 story, I don't know if INF:A or INF SCP will be of a higher quality or not, as I'm not really keeping track) to be flawed. But that's another story, so back on-topic.
EDIT: When I posted this, I had not seen INF: A had been released (holy crap!). I'm going to go try it and see how the plot looks.
- they didn't want to beat GTVA completly but instead give them chances to win
What, like ngtm1r's Shivan Theory?
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FSFreak freaks out again. :P
Good idea, but I don't support making ANY juggernauts whatsoever. Making a juggernaut takes time and patience, as well as money, and making one is unnecessary, just send in the strategic task force straight off the bat and smack up the Shivans. But these bombers won't work if the Shivans deploy fighters or somekind of anti-fighter cruiser to repel any small-scale (?) attack, armed with many SAAA and rapid cannons.
Building strategic combat carriers around 4km in size and then sending them in to destroy the immediate warship threat that it can handle, send out escorted strategic bomber wings, and then watch them annhialate the Sathy. That would be a good idea IMO.
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Victory in numbers, Snail?
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i think of more classes
now there are cruiser corvette destroyer juggernaught
newer classes (i combining them with the old 1)
light cruiser, medium cruiser ,heavy cruiser ,anti-fighter/bomber cruiser, anti-capship cruiser
light corvette, medium corvette ,heavy corvette, anti-fighter/bomber corvette , anti-capship corvette
light frigate ,medium frigate ,heavy frigate, anti-fighter/bomber frigate ,anti-capship frigate
light destroyer, medium destroyer, heavy destroyer, anitF/B destroyer, anti-capship destroyer
light juggernaught , medium juggernaught , heavy juggernaught, anti-F/B juggernaught anti-capship juggernaught
carrier class
light dreadnaught, medium dreadnaught, heavy dreadnaught, anti-F/B dreadnaught anti-capship dreadnaught
all the normall classes are comparable with the classes that are normal ingame
with the light medium heavy i mean the weaponry not size(that also possible) but lighter weapons for the light classes but also better speed and maneuverability for medium the settings that are in game and for the heavy more powerfull weapons but worser speed and maneuverability
anti-F/B(fighter/bomber) classes have the weapons that are effective on fighter and bombers
and at last the anti-capship classes are more effective against capships.
for weapons and stuff
maybe some fighterbeams , railguns machine guns or some sniper reactin weapon
also maybe beamprotected shields(not completly but its harder for beams to penetrate)
and for beams (This is used in inferno) more sizes in beams like Fgreen Sgreen Mgreen Hgreen Bgreen BFgreen SBFgreen Ugreen Ogreen Pgreen
F=Fighter beam
S= Small
M= medium
H= huge
b = big
BF = (never knowed were the BF in game was..)
SBF super (never knowd were the BF in game was..)
U = ultra
O = omega
P = Planetairy (for planetairy bombardments or very large ships)
and maybe shields for capships ! :)
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If the GTVA were to make a jugg, then the Vasudans should be the main contributor because the Terrans are in a worse state than them.
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I disagree with both of those statements. The first one says the Shivans have to pay their workers and pay for their raw materials. If this was so, how much money would it take to build the Sathy fleet? A few googleplex ShivoTokens? :P
Expensive doesn't mean necessarily either. It can simply mean not cost-effective, i.e. you can get more out of that amount of resources/time/Shivanpower by using them in other ships. Because no matter how you look at it time, energy, and people must be expended in gathering the resources, processing them, construction, and the ship has to be crewed.
What, like ngtm1r's Shivan Theory?
Where in the heck did I say that?
A juggernaut project would give the GTVA as a whole something to rally around, and possibly help to stimulate the economy. Massive government expenditure works both ways. Just ask Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Plus people tend to issue credit to the government more willingly than most organizations, because the government's word is generally good in such transactions.
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Here is a damn good question: Exactly when did the Collie failed at its "original" pourpose?
The answer is never. In fact it performed remarkebly well for a GTVA vessel on its first missions out.
The Collie was NEVER suposed to engage ships anywhere near its size or power not to mention that the Sath actualy has more firepower mounted on its forward firing ark then the entire broadside of the Collie !
It all depends on how you define the Colossus' objectives. If you define them as "as the flagship of the allied armada, destroy anything that you come across", then it was a failure in its role of defense of the GTVA. If you define it as "run around and blow up destroyers in single barrages", then of course it's going to be a success.
I think miniaturization of beam weaponry will be the GTVA's main project, besides rebuilding. IMO, the GTVA will have learned an important lesson from the destruction of the Colossus: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. The GTVA may well try and put bigger beams on smaller ships. Eventually, we may find ourselves with a LGreen on a ship half the size of a Fenris, or smaller. Perhaps a BFGreen on a Fenris. Mjolnirs are relatively small. Mount them on engines and add shielding, and you've got one heck of a weapon. Warp in these fabulously expensive cannons around any ship and it's toast. They may cost about as much as an Orion each, but they will be worth it. (Interestingly enough, the Colossus is just less than the length of three Orions, has the crew of three Orions, but, according to FS2, has more firepower than five Orions. Why couldn't they just pull the beams from the Colossus and stick them on a ship the size of an Orion? It would be much less of a terror weapon, but it would get the job done.
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IMO, the GTVA will have learned an important lesson from the destruction of the Colossus: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. The GTVA may well try and put bigger beams on smaller ships.
The EA has yet to learn this lesson...
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F=Fighter beam
S= Small
M= medium
H= huge
b = big
BF = (never knowed were the BF in game was..)
SBF super (never knowd were the BF in game was..)
U = ultra
O = omega
P = Planetairy (for planetairy bombardments or very large ships)
and maybe shields for capships ! :)
Come now....Remember Doom and what BFG stood for?
that's right.. Big Fu***** Green!
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@wtf_cl0vvn
Yes, the Lilith has a LRED. But the Lilith is unkown technologie.
You know, the Shivan Beams fire all 10 Seconds, and the GTVA-Beams with the same dmg all Minute.
The GTVA is far away from the Shivan tech-level. Some Tech has beem stolen from the Shivan, okay.
I agree with your Cost-Point. But i personally think a Juggernaut or a Juggernaut-like Installation will be buildet. And this will be build to kill Juggernauts. And this will be no offensive Craft. It will wait at the Jumpnodes 4 incoming Juggernauts.
I'am not sure, that the Shivans will be impressed by a BF-Cruiser or -Corvette-Fleet. Because the Shivan answer is just known: The Ravana-Destroyer-First-Strikes.
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Well, a destroyer armed with a BFGreen is sort of a monitor....
For me, my idea of a monitor vessel is a cruiser/corvette/maybe frigate too with that BGreen.
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Snail - your universal 4km carriers are waste of time and resources. You're making another Warlock (ship for everything, but for nothing). That kind of warships have got too weak firepower to compare with AC capships of the same size and too small fighter capibility to counter carriers. Pure carriers are supposed to say out of battle (and even if possible from system where enemy forces are present) and bleed enemy with fighters.
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Carriers tend to operate behind a shield of defence ships, typically it would be escorted by a couple of point defence ships and at least one Cruiser (Destroyer in FS2 Terms). Basically, I can see light carriers appearing, with large launch facilities but only flak cover for bomb defence, flying with a task force but large carriers would require such a heavy concentration of ships and resources they'd actually be more of a liability than a bonus.
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The Strategic carrier just has to be big enough to carry fighters, so it could be 1.5 km actually. I just wanted something to destroy smaller ships which may stop the strategic bomber attack force. So it could actually be a small ship to kill the anti-fighter warships, and then deploying the bombers later. Just something to kill the smaller ships, since using those meson torps on smaller ships is probably a waste of money and time as well as overkill (like dropping a nuke to destroy a spy's house).
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BF = (never knowed were the BF in game was..)
It wasn't. It was meant to be on the Colossus but the entry is commented out.
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Was it used in game? High Noon it used LRBGreens, IIRC.
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Exactly. AFAIK the BFGreen doesn't appear anywhere in the finished game.
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Exactly. AFAIK the BFGreen doesn't appear anywhere in the finished game.
Right, whatever. Disregard comments about Colossus' better beams.
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Umm. What? :wtf:
Anyway the Colossus does actually use the BFGreen once. In Endgame. Turret 63 is a BFGreen.
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Where in the heck did I say that?
You never said that the Shivans wanted us to win, certainly, but you did point out that, had we won in the end, the Shivans would have counted it as a victory, as the GTA and PVN would have been forced to integrate so much that peace would last. You didn't see the Shivans dispatch Sathani in FS1, did you?
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Personally, I see no use for any ship larger than a Super-Destroyer (think the Sirona).
Since the Shivans have virtually no rear defenses, you simply need a few of these ships to provide supporting fire in case a Juggernaught gets through node defenses.
And the Meson bombs could be delivered by unmanned Tritons jumping out directly under a Sath and detonating immediately, no risk to bombers required. :p
Personally, I am of the opinion that the GTVA would concentrate mostly on subspace technology after the war, perfecting sensors, subspace travel, and possibly developing a "subspace disruptor" weapon.
(I have already developed a very long and detailed explanation for why ships can't simply jump from system to system directly, but have to actually jump out from inside a node: it involves an idea of mine that the node is somewhat like the eye of a four-dimensional "subspace storm" which stretches for several Km in every direction in real-space, and makes subspace essentially innavigable for vessels equipped with standard subspace drives. Knossos devices work differently: since they are artificial, the storm is virtually non-existent, so ships can jump in and out very close to the node without danger.)
Anyways, back to the weapon: it would exploit the inherently volatile nature of subspace as outlined above to create an area in which subspace is effectively rendered innavigable, trapping all capital ships inside for hours (if continuously aimed at the target, this type of weapon could be used indefinitely). This renders capships easy prey to fast moving fighters and bombers, which don't need to use subspace to get close to the target, as once they are within about 20k of a target, they can close the distance within minutes.
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Why do people keep saying that Shivan ships have no rear defence? They have very strong rear defences. It's called another ship of the same class you just attacked the rear of. :p
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Where in the heck did I say that?
You never said that the Shivans wanted us to win, certainly, but you did point out that, had we won in the end, the Shivans would have counted it as a victory, as the GTA and PVN would have been forced to integrate so much that peace would last. You didn't see the Shivans dispatch Sathani in FS1, did you?
No, but I don't think they had that option either. The Shivans were in the game to win it, which of necessity meant that they wanted us to lose. It's just that in the end if we won that would be okay with them (sort of) too.
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why ships can't simply jump from system to system directly
I thought it was canon that intrasystem jumps required the presense of a gravity well (I.E. a star), limiting them to a single system.
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Nope, I think it's somewhere in the Tech Room
The Tech Room isn't canon?
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sorry, lost the real meaning of canon..... it's not fanon, sorry...
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Was it used in game? High Noon it used LRBGreens, IIRC.
Yep...they used this weapon in High Noon. In other missions not so much. If you modify a mission outside of that where the Colossus engages in ship to ship combat...it wipes everything out.
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Hmmm yes, most definitely **** the idea of juggernauts. The shivans have tons of them, and pretty much perfected them, they have way too much forward firepower. Ares III pointed out a great thing, **** juggs, why not make super destroyers. Personally i still find the lucifer intimidating and full of awe and glory even if the damn thing is unshielded. Plus the lucifer in fs2 has enough power already. Watching the fs2 lucifer in action in derelict was confirmation enough. Besides the fredding put into the missions of derelict, the fs2 lucifer showed off that it could take a ****load of a beating and scare the **** out of you so you want to run away when the lucifer starts blasting out of its docking rings :D
When the lucy started whipping out with its beams in derelict where it undocks itself :lol: that scared the **** out of me. But like obviously in the future the gtva will have developed more efficient beams, and shielding a destroyer largely doesn't matter for say a ship like the lucifer. The gtva didn't really learn a lesson from juggs. They just found out all of their other ships were completely awesome except for the colossus. The colossus was never a folly at all, not even to other juggernauts, the gtva simply thought it had built a ship much bigger than what the shivans had to offer (i mean the shivans pretty much through everything they had at the gtva minus ravanas and sathi). Hell, why wouldn't the shivans throw in more lucifers whether they're shielded or not? With that type of thinking the only jugg in existence to the gtva eats smaller ships for lunch is great logic. Too bad they had no foretelling of shivan juggs. Luckily enough for a sathanas, is that it's size is important for it's unique purpose. I mean a sath isn't just a forward baring beam rig that's oversized (i mean if a sath was relied on for it's forward beams like that, the shivans would be more intelligent to scrap saths for a whole bunch more lucys). The sath is a unique weapon with it's four forward arms using beams as something you could call an afterthought purpose. The sath is a weapon meant to be combined with other saths to be a star buster and pretty much be nothing else, saths aren't very heavily armed. They're probably that big to house a huge ass power core, and mainly the size of the jugg to create huge ass subspace fields that disrupt a star.
But since the shivans did have juggs because shivans like to nuke stars, something that's really not in the gtvas head as an offensive move, pretty much that made the colossus a failure.
Since the gtva doesn't need saths, making another one would truly be a folly, unless it would had one particular unique purpose that made it viable to have one or more.
Super-destroyers is the way to go for the gtva if they're interested at all in making bigger ships. If the gtva make a super destroyer that should probably be the terrans. The terrans need a stronger destroyer, and that could be supplemented by making super destroyers as the next line up, and consider hecates as light destroyers (i really don't see the hecate being phased out anytime soon, it's not composed of aging great war systems and technology, and therefore is probably a lot easier to mod and retrofit the damn thing with new technology, unlike say a great war destroyer that the vasudans have that doesn't work that great with new beam weaponry(tech description classification) and i'm sure the gtva is just waiting for orions to be moffballed so they don't become more expensive to change than ever before...and yes of course the gtva will be building new ship designs too).
The vasudans on the other hand i don't think they'd need to make their own super destroyer. The hatshepsut class is more than powerful enough (i guess this is where the vasudans would be considered having a heavy destroyer and the terrans having a light one).
But yeah, pretty much the gtva shouldn't make anything bigger than a super destroyer, it's not necessary. Another bonus for designs like the hecate is that, in fs2 the hecate was really new, there wasn't that many of them at all, there's still time to augment the hecate design, as in the shivan second incursion the gtva should really consider the hecate light destroyer a beta test :lol: Pretty much after the second shivan incursion(the beta test) the gtva would probably classify the hecate as a light destroyer (that's the main reason i do).
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Not to annoy you or anything, but I hate long posts or PMs. FSFreak sent me a lot. :P
The FS2 Lucy uses SReds, whereas the Derelict Lucy (Nyarlathotep) uses BFReds. The Nyarlathotep also has regenerating armor. Your view of Saths is my view as well, so I agree with that. The BFReds were simply added bonus for having such a large reactor/energy weapon.
The GTVA should make either Superdestroyers, or small ships such as Corvettes armed with a rapeload of BGreens (monitors). They should also use uberbombers packed with (viva la) uberbombs. Carriers, not superbig lumbering beam packing Juggernaut wannabe's, but little ships, say 1.5km dedicated to carrying fighters, bombers, etc. Also developing a Mjolnir class weapon capable of defending itself would also be a good idea IMO. Strike destroyers (destroyer class vessels with more firepower than usual, or normal destroyers with just all their forward firepower mounted forward) too. They rock.
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Sorry it was long because i knew i hit something big. But yeah, the vasudans hatshepsut is a lot more powerful and durable than the hecate. The vasudans should create a light destroyer as well, and the terrans should create a heavy destroyer. Because you really don't want to put a hecate into the shivan nebula, and since the psamtik didn't have much of a presence there in the fs2 campaign based on how much you were around it since you were serving on a hecate. I mean obviously terran and vasudan capships in fs2 are complementing each other. But still, you get the idea, having a terran light and heavy destroyer would put the hecate in situations where it would be more feasible and then stuff like a terran heavy destroyer in the shivan nebula probably wouldn't have gotten disabled. The hecate does fill more of a carrier role, wtf was it doing in the shivan nebula? Something like a hecate complementing a hatshepsut would be really powerful, then again idk if the hecate has greater fighter capacity than the hatshepsut. A new terran heavy destroyer would put the hecate into more applicable roles instead of being used as a node blockade for a sathanas.
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I want a hud that makes it look like there is no nebula, even if it's green nightvision glow
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I say the GTVA invests in a billion million kamikaze amazon drones. A Sathanas jumps in, two thousand drones follow, 500 get taken down, 1500 impact hull, BOOM!!!
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Gtva should invest in dumbfire highspeed helioses. Just aim at the sathanas and let her rip. Of course leave the normal helioses for more tactical purposes.
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Mass firing of Helios bombs would probably not be a good idea. Why do you think there were delays in the first place? That looks like a job for... The GTCv Ajax (or something like it). The Ajax fires Cyclops and StarShaker torps which look cool (they are on the actual ship) and blow stuff up too (actually they get shot down more).
The Hecate was in the nebula because it was commanding the forces in there. You never actually see it blowing up Shivan cruisers, that was the fleet's job. However, it had to be in the nebula because the transmissions wouldn't work if they were still in Gamma Drax. However, when they had to retreat it was either that it was too slow, or its fleet was blown up. It was simply caught up by the Shivans.
The Hecate tat was blockadin gthe Sath (the Phonexia) was just a last-ditch defense, which failed. Boom. :)
Kamikaze bots are a good idea. But making so many sucks. Where are ya going to store them. And then one goes off at the storehouse and KABOOM!!!!!!!!!! Fireworks. :)
A HUD that clears nebula would be a good idea. I agree. :nod:
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A HUD that clears nebula would be a good idea. I agree. :nod:
Better than that, build a lot of those giant hoovers called "GTG Zephyrus" and "GVG Anuket" to physically remove the nebula, so there won't be anymore nebula interference and EMP storms :lol:
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:wtf:
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My point exactly, gtva probably could have at least sent in an outdated orion into the nebula instead, at least that thing would technically work better when it's in enemy territory.
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Better than that, build a lot of those giant hoovers called "GTG Zephyrus" and "GVG Anuket" to physically remove the nebula, so there won't be anymore nebula interference and EMP storms :lol:
or (WARNING:highly complicated and improbable idea) use the "hoovers" to move nebulas...nebulas could be used as a defence:
createa EMP nebula, or also a nebula that disables shields...can we have it? (anybody has played "Conquest: frontier wars"?)
place it so that it surroundes a jump node
place mjoliners/titans all around
wait for the enemies to jump in and watch them suffer...
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Can we stop with the lame jokes that aren't lame enough to be funny, please? Lame jokes have to be so lame they're funny, and these aren't lame enough.
Unless you're being serious... In which case you're an idiot.
Yes, I did drink more milk. I feel really crap today, got a headache and everything.... :/
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i was serious
GTVA could use nebulas to defend important areas, and, of course, to make them more hidden... of course i don't want to debate on the physics laws on which this is based...I know that now such an idea sounds foolish, but in >2300...
or such a technology could be used by shivans to create problems to enemies' scouts.
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S-99 - Lucifer must've been horrible expensive. It's only 0,5km longer than Demon, but has five powerfull beam cannons (three of them able to destroy destroyer in one shot), three times better armour and powerfull shielding (Nyarlathotep's regenerating armor is non-canon and IMHO impossible) and we see only one of it in FS. Even if there were more of them, they'd be very rare. GTID Hades must've been also horrible expensive and built for a long time (there's large probablity that GTI had contact with Shivans long before attack on GTI Rivera). Even if GTVA would get Hades' plans and build its clone, there'd be at most two of them. True that they'd have awersome firepower, but single well-coordinated attack could finish them of (remember that shielding destroyer of that size is impossible for GTVA and bombs would deal damage as well). SDs would be good however as 3km mass-produced battleship with large front Anti-Cap firepower. Also with Hatshepsut-Hecate team I think it's wrong. Hecate was complete mistake, Hatshepsut has got large firepower, but it'd have twice as much if it wouldn't have fighterbays. Another thing is 2,5km carrier filled with fighters and 3km battleship with massive froward firepower that could lay waste to multiple Shivan destroyers.
The Hecate was in the nebula because it was commanding the forces in there. You never actually see it blowing up Shivan cruisers, that was the fleet's job. However, it had to be in the nebula because the transmissions wouldn't work if they were still in Gamma Drax.
So you can recive messages from GTVA Command from Beta Aquaile, but you can't from destroyer in near system? That's little odd, don't you think? :p
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Yes, Snail I think in the end the point of my post was to say **** Jugs. I don't think the GTVA should build Jugs at all unless they are meant as a lure. The GTVA should make a strategy whereby they build a large multitude of relatively cheap, expendable ships that in large numbers are capable of taking down multiple Sathani. As I said, a single meson bomb made into a shaped charge would probably be powerful enough to destroy a Sath in one hit, but just to be sure, these uberbombers would fly in a defensive formation, kinda like the flying fortresses of WWII, plus be escorted by a wing or two of interceptors and even a "bomber escort" to take down any small vessels that might get in the way. Alone, these things would be a tough nut to crack, with their AAA beam and flak gun, but with three to four of them flying in formation, they'd be a nightmare for any fighter daring to take them down.
Lastly, these uberbombers would not need to be supported by a carrier. Since they are large enough to be considered ships in their own right, they'll have intersystem jump drives as standard equipment. Crewed by about eight, they'd have bunks, toilets, showers, and a galley (kitchen) onboard. They'd have enough amenities for them to stay deployed for weeks. I'd imagine that they could launch from a planet, rendezvous with their escort launched from a destroyer or carrier for the mission, and do their jobs.
In the end, just have the GTVA make lots of expendable little guys who can do enough damage on their own to destroy lots of Juggies, that's how it should work. I don't even think Superdestroyers or other capships are a good idea to use to take down Saths, since these things themselves are expensive and take a long time to build. That's why I think the uberbomber idea is the most efficient one.
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Then its not even a uberbomber anymore... Its a gigabomber.
However, they would be easier to take down if the target had many SAAA beams or STrebuchets. However, deploying these gunboats would probably be the GTVA's best bet, since making 80 Colossi to counter the 80 Sathanes is completely out of the question.
However, the lots of little expendable guys is IMO a bad idea. If that was referring to the Uberbombers, then no, they're not little and they're not expendable. The bombs would take a lot of time and money and failed experiments to build, as would the bombers themselves. However, long-range bombardment craft capable of killing a Sath without needing to get anywhere near it would be a good idea IMO if the bombers fail to do their job.
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Yes, they're not little or cheap compared to, say, other bombers, but they are cheap and expendable compared to a Destroyer, a Corvette, or even a cruiser, and that's the ticket. It would be cheaper and probably much more effective to make a bunch of these guys compared to a bunch of Superdreadnoughts designed to take on Saths, when each one of these would defininately not be cheap nor expendable. Besides, with an escort of fast, powerful interceptors, these gunboats (more like missile or bomb boats, oooh, now I need to play Tie Fighter again) have little to worry about from Trebuchet equipped Shivans.
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Obviously never saths, that's why super destroyers are more recomendable. Yes on the note of the lucifer, yes it was rare, yes the shielding possibility for gtva is impossible, and that derelict is non-canon. But those points don't matter since i was just pointing out the fact that lucifers are pretty damn intimidating in any light.
Building SD's would promote new ship design, and eventually get rid of hecates especially, but since you know orions are being phased out, the hecate is to stay. The hecate is a new design still to the gtva, upgrading what few there are wouldn't be so expensive, and if the next ones get built, they would have already have changed the blueprints for those. Hecate isn't a mistake, just hard to think of a mission where a "light destroyer" would be a tactical benefit. And since everything in here costs too much money to do anyway, at least it's a better and feasible idea compared to building juggs.
Qwer, next time you quote something that i didn't say, plz include snails name since that was not something i wrote.
On the other hand for bombers. How hard was it ever to get really up close and personal to a sath with a normal bomber? I'd say if gtva wanted to, they could get away by just having more powerful ordinance, and possibly more capacity on bombers. With more powerful bombs, taking down a sath could become easier than taking down a destroyer (since saths don't have much weaponry besides 4 huge arms).
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How expensive are Meson Bombs (charges), then?
Shivans would probably deploy something capable of pushing back the SSF (Strategic Strike Force), such as ships with say 4 SAAA beams, which would force the SSF back, protecting the Jug. But these mega-bomb-lobbers are the best the GTVA has.
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On the other hand for bombers. How hard was it ever to get really up close and personal to a sath with a normal bomber? I'd say if gtva wanted to, they could get away by just having more powerful ordinance, and possibly more capacity on bombers. With more powerful bombs, taking down a sath could become easier than taking down a destroyer (since saths don't have much weaponry besides 4 huge arms).
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Exactly right. I think after a little demonstration, the Shivans would become very reluctant to commit the Saths to battle any longer. They may even scrap them and convert the scrap to contemporary Destroyers and other capships, which would be much more effective against the GTVA at this point. After the Shivans abandon the Saths, GTVA vs. Shivan battles would become more like old-fashioned slugging matches that we're used to in FS2.
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We still don't know the purpose of the Sathanas, or of the destruction of Capella. We don't know that the Shivans ever intended the Sathanas as a general-purpose assault ship. Perhaps the expense of putting four BFReds on a Sathanas was simply an acceptable investment to protect the juggernaut's anti-star weaponry/theorized portal generator. The Sathanas has many already-pointed-out weaknesses, the biggest being its lack of rear-facing defensive beams. The Lucifer proved to be an equal threat, and it was much smaller. We don't know anything about Shivan motives for the Sathanas fleet, which could easily have destroyed every city on every planet in every system governed by the GTVA before any nodes could be destroyed, but chose not to, instead wholly destroying a system which they may have known to be uninhabited, having observed many transports (assuming they recognized them to be transports) leaving the system, even attempting to destroy these transports, sacrificing not insignificant forces in the process. While the Sathanas fleet destroyed Capella, the Melchom and the Bane attempted to enter the node in what was probably an attempt to attack the GTVA or perhaps an attempt to stop them from closing the node. We can only speculate on Shivan motives for producing the Sathanas, or indeed their motives for pretty much anything.
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FSFreak, I don't think the Shivans would scrap the Saths, they have a special purpose that we don't know about. I agree with Koopa, the 4 BFReds were either there to protect the Sath's subspace weapon, or were simply benefit of having the weapon's reactor. The Melchom and the Bane could actually be trying to escape Capella before it went nova. And about the Saths not jumping out. Perhaps they just had no more energy to do so after using the weapon. You actually see that the red fades from them, signalling they had used almost, or all, their energy on the subspace weapon.
The Sathanas fleet, at the time, could have easily wiped out the GTVA fleet in Capella, split up into two groups, wipe out Epsilon Pegasi and Vega, and move on until they have pushed the GTVA into a corner somewhere. They could've done that, the GTVA fleet was entirely inferior to a fleet of eighty Sathanes, but they did not. Wonder why...
So I doubt they would scrap Sathanes, I think they would simply just add more SAAA or protect them better with many more Cains, Liliths, Rakshasas, Molochs, Ravanas and Demons. Or simply keep them in subspace for as long as possible, stop at a rally point, recharge jump drives and continue on. So the Strategic Bombers would probably kill a few Sathanes before the Shivans begin to go all tactical on you. Perhaps if they still want to blow up ships normally with their Sathanas fleet, they would just jump them in and then warp them out as quickly as possible.
But the bomber strike force is probably the only thing the GTVA can rely on unless they make Meson Beams that can kill Saths in a single beam, which would be a lot cooler. However, flying a lumbering superbomer would probably be far more fun than just guarding the Meson lobber from Shivan Bombers.
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The Sathanas fleet, at the time, could have easily wiped out the GTVA fleet in Capella, split up into two groups, wipe out Epsilon Pegasi and Vega, and move on until they have pushed the GTVA into a corner somewhere. They could've done that, the GTVA fleet was entirely inferior to a fleet of eighty Sathanes, but they did not. Wonder why...
Woah, that would be an awesome idea for an AU-Campaign: The GTVA pushed literally into a corner, almost every core system occupied by the Shivan Juggernaut armada, the only choice left being to push through the Shivan fleet and try to fight through Shivan territory beyond the Knossi while the bulk of their forces are in GTVA space. Damn, i've gotta go write this down somewhere... *wanders off*
Back OT: If they had any Sathanas left, the Shivans would sooner upgrade them than sell them into scrap. They would likely use the tactical information they gathered from the scuffle against GTVA forces and augment the hull to hold more weapons systems and give the Sathanas a wider firing arch, potentially similar to the Colossus. Given the size of the Juggernaut, scrapping a Sathanas would be akin to the USN scrapping the Nimitz-class Supercarrier just because the design isn't perfect.
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WEll the way i see it the GTVA really needs a fast ship with powefull weapons sistems.
One idea would be to produce omething about 1.5 km long put 2 subspace jump drives onm it and 4 heavy wepons sistems (4 heavy beam cannons) give it the armour of a deimos of about 80.000 hp with a top speed of about 35 m/s small fighterbay of about 100 spacecrafts. Such a ship would be very fast very versatile. And deadly give the right cirustances or a good capatain. I wonder if Bosch would of taken the job of camanding such a beutyful ship. Oh and lets not forget use as much vasudan and shivan tech as curently available. Terrans are somewhat inferior to vasudans in terms of reactor cores and general power sistems.
Of course for such a ship to be viabl you would have to decrase its beam refire rate. Even 30% would be good.
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The GTVA should pour all its resources into making the Sol Jumpgate rather than doing anything else. Well, that's probably what command would do anyway. :rolleyes:
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The GTVA should pour all its resources into making the Sol Jumpgate rather than doing anything else. Well, that's probably what command would do anyway. :rolleyes:
Exactly, distract the GTVA populous from the cripplingly devastating economic and social hardships ahead as the second reconstruction era begins.
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It would probably boost morale, but what happens if the SHivans return and all you've got is a Knossos portal?
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If they're in serious danger of losing to a third Shivan incursion? Collapse the nodes. That would likely be one of the major avenues of research into the future; craft specifically designed to collapse subspace nodes. The GTVA already have the crude ability to collapse them permanently, but I forsee that the advent of Knossoss technology will allow the them to collapse and re-open nodes at will. Shivan fleet coming your way? No problem, just seal off the node and go happily about your way.
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Shivan fleet coming your way? No problem, just seal off the node and go happily about your way.
the problems comes when shivans re-open the nodes... i've seen that in Inferno there is a "shivan knossos". if shivans are fast enough and have the resources to build 80+ sathanas in a short period of time, they could as well open a subspace portal to come in the systems of the GTVA. (-->a new idea for the sol history: GTVA builds the Sol Gate and finds shivan inside.... ;7)
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The chances of shivans actualy managing to get to Sol before the GTVA are even smaller then you actualy taking out a shivan jugg with a cruiser.....a fenris cruiser. I thing that every square km of space that surounds the closest sistems to Solhave been scaned and rescaned in order to find a suitable jump node. Not to mention that the Sol fleets would of done the same. If a stable jumpnode could of been to get to Sol then you can rest asured then the GTVA would of eventualy found a way to use it without the use of a knossos. Hell they had shivan captured ships. Sure they did not manage to get the engines working properly but the jump drive seemed to be operational.
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Who says they didn't use their own jump drive?
The Shivans are known as the MASTERS OF SUBSPACE (dun dun dun), so I dont really see how they were sealed off in the first place anyway. :doubt:
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AlphaOne may be right. So far, the Shivans have been explained as using unstable nodes as jump points, never making their own. On the other hand, how many times do jump nodes form and collapse in a second? Stable ones last decades, how often do unstable ones? It's fairly difficult to scan an entire star system, perhaps they missed something.
Also, now that the GTVA has Knossos technology, I think they'll go around and build Knossos portals around every jump node to prevent collapse, once they've rebuilt the economy.
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Do the Shivans even know that Sol is our home system?
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No, but they sure do know that's where your mom lives. And they want a piece of that :nod:
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I personally don't think that there would have been a second economic collapse. The Second Great War was not nearly as devastating as the first, and they only lost one system. Granted it was a major system, but it wasn't a homeworld. Additionally, during the first Great War the TV forces were pushed into a corner, and who knows how many civilians were slaughtered behind enemy lines.
Most likely the GTVA would have simply accelerated into a command wartime economy, creating a rationing economy sort of like a temporary communistic economy. Not unlike the wartime economies of WWII America and the US. Even though they wouldn't be directly at war, they would realize that the Shivans could return at any moment and this time they knew more about the Shivans capabilities. They would behave as if they were still waging an ongoing war with the Shivans, even thought they had severed contact.
The first thing the GTVA would have done, I think, after the collapse of Capella would be to find some way to take on a large Sathanas fleet, and be able to build this capability in under, say, five years. This is why I came up with the ultra-bomber idea because they would need to build this anti-Sath-armada capability quickly, for as far as they knew the Shivans could have popped up in some other GTVA system practically the day after the collapse of Capella.
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It would probably boost morale, but what happens if the Shivans return and all you've got is a Knossos portal?
Would htat be all you got? Research would continue on other things and Sol would have some forces of it's own. Given the fear of Shivans, they would probably fortify the system beyond all reason :D
Plus, they have hte Lucifer remains floating there...which means Sol might have acess to some pretty neat tech :D
If they're in serious danger of losing to a third Shivan incursion? Collapse the nodes. That would likely be one of the major avenues of research into the future; craft specifically designed to collapse subspace nodes. The GTVA already have the crude ability to collapse them permanently, but I forsee that the advent of Knossoss technology will allow the them to collapse and re-open nodes at will. Shivan fleet coming your way? No problem, just seal off the node and go happily about your way.
I?m not so sure that it's permanent... the node might stablise again (in a few thousand years:D)
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You are right about the Terrans in Sol making it a super fortress. As for tech advances i think they could be ahead of the GTVA in terms of weapons and engines etc. Why? Simply because they had all this time to spare for nothing to do but advance theyr tech. And they also have the Lucy remains over there. Rememeber what the GTI did with that tech? Who says they wont be able to do the same .
This is indeed a very plausyble scenario since Even if it took 10 or 20 years for the GTA to rebuild Sol after aledged economical desasters or something like that the rest of the time they would be building more powerfull ships more advanced ships. Hell the GTVA has been in one war after another and they still managed to get the economy working and rebuild they shipyards and fleets and advance in tech terms. I think one of the biggest fears that the GTA would of had is the fear of another Lucy or more of them and would of taken apropriate measures .
Sweet just imagine Sol fleets actualy beeing more powerfull the theyr GTVA counterparts. this reminds me of Inferno.
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You are right about the Terrans in Sol making it a super fortress. As for tech advances i think they could be ahead of the GTVA in terms of weapons and engines etc. Why? Simply because they had all this time to spare for nothing to do but advance theyr tech. And they also have the Lucy remains over there. Rememeber what the GTI did with that tech? Who says they wont be able to do the same .
This is indeed a very plausyble scenario since Even if it took 10 or 20 years for the GTA to rebuild Sol after aledged economical desasters or something like that the rest of the time they would be building more powerfull ships more advanced ships. Hell the GTVA has been in one war after another and they still managed to get the economy working and rebuild they shipyards and fleets and advance in tech terms. I think one of the biggest fears that the GTA would of had is the fear of another Lucy or more of them and would of taken apropriate measures .
Sweet just imagine Sol fleets actualy beeing more powerfull the theyr GTVA counterparts. this reminds me of Inferno.
Generally speaking, cutting off an entire city from the outside world in the aftermath of a disabling long-term war, does very little to make that city more economically vibrant. The GTVA was forced to advance through said wars; it also had multiple colonies and cross-research with the Vasudans, which could potentially have opened up many new avenues of development (such as reactor technology). The GTVA also had access to not just more materials, but more variety of materials.
Whilst it's hard to find an exact parallel with the real world or history, it's surely worth noting that Sol has had to endure the loss of every outside resource it ever had. And I personally would suspect there was a growing economic dependence on exterior resources, for the very same reason that it expanded outwards in the first place. It's hard, also, for me to see what motivation there would be for a stable Sol to preserve & expand the military when it's quite possible there are more pressing problems of rebuilding or perhaps overpopulation, and when there are no nodes for an enemy to come from. Many nations without a plausible threat stagnate - even the Us needed to invent one in the 'War on Terror' to mobilize the masses - and I'm not convinced Sol would be driven to arm itself against an invisible threat.
The Lucifer remains, I think, are really a red herring. If you look at the cutscene, the little that survives is gutted by the explosion; I'm not sure how much is left, let alone how much would be comprehensible (after all, they struggled to get a Dragon working and that was considerably more intact and quite possibly worked on more familiar principles). The idea of the Lucifers crumbling remains as an Aladdins cave of technology has never really hung well with me.
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That may be true but let us not forget that almost all of the GTA manufacturing and industrial power base was based in Sol. Also Sol as far as we know is not that resource poor as one might think.
Also lets not forget that at the time the lucifer showed up only a few sistems actuali had mining gooing on. And even less were actualy colonized at the extent we see in Fs2
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Acording to the ani, the front half of hte lucifer split into 4 bigger parts and a few smalelr ones. One "arm" looks completely intact at least.
Anbd whjile hte Lucifer might be difficult to analyze, don't forget that they retrofitted a dragon fighter in a few DAYS. Now, if you have 30 years or so.. :D
Oh, and we're talking about the whole solar system. Shortage of materials? HA! You got a lot of planets nad moons and a gigantic asteroid belt....
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Mi thoughts exactly. Sol was the industrial and economical powerbase of the GTA for a reason and it wasnt beacuse of its strategic position . But rather because it already had a very large suply of rwa material for almost anything you could imagine. It had rare gasses it had minerals etc. So the Prospect of Sol becoming some sort of superfortress is quite posible.
Rememebr it wasnt the city that was cut off from the coutry but rather the country that was cut off rom the city. So while the city would strugle for some time to recover as was the case for the GTA forces outside Sol the country in this case Sol would be gooing along with its business beacause most of its economy is intact and working.
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The trouble is, there aren't really any real world examples to draw from, so this is all guesswork. The closest thing I can think of is a city under siege, but that presents a whole new set of circumstances.
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You have to try and take in account how well developed the other systems are by that time anyhow...plus the planets. My guess is that the Earth is something like a planet-city, much like Trantor from the Asimov novels or Coruscant from SW...
Mercury, Mars, and the Moon wouldn't be far behind...nor the Jovian moons, perhaps even the Saturnian ones, and Pluto even.
When does it say the subspace drive was invented? sometime like 212-something...cant really remember. by that point, my guess is that the solar system has been pretty well worked...the Earth is at a level 4 (services and tech) economy, the other planets leaning more towards service industries, still with heavy industry (shipbuilding), then theyd move out to Delta Serpentis and the other systems...
By the time of the VT War, my guess is that Sol is like a capital system. If youve had 2-300 years to expand out into the galaxy, and youve got 15 systems colonized, then the original system has been pretty much left as administrative. Delta Serpentis would be close to there, and the other systems would be raw resource and industrial systems. Remember, with subspace, a cargo of food or metals from, say, Ikeya or Ribos, going on large civilian freighters would be able to get to Delta S. or Vega in a day or so.
The freighters im guessing would be large, slow, and close to defenseless, but with huge cargo capacity for efficiency. With subspace, they dont have to move too quick :)
If you cut off the capital system from the rest, i dont know what would happen...maybe like cutting off Western Europe from the rest of the world? i have no idea...
Im not saying they would be COMPLETELY useless, just that their production capacity and resource influx would be drastically cut down....
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Actualy from what i gather for the FS and FS2 the outer sistems that the GTA colonized were rather under developed. The most developed one was the DS as far as I can rememeber but i do remember that there was a mention of Sol beeing the backbone if you will of the entire GTA with most of the industryal and economical actyvity taking place there.
If that is so then you could argue that Sol is indeed the powerhouse both economical and industrial behind the GTA controled space. We can not exactly argue that Sol would have its resources drasticly reduced since Sol has vast amounts of resources on its own. Remember they stopped building the Prometheus S because they did not have acces to rare gasses that were found in Sol. And it took the finding of the nebula to strat production of it again.
They more likely decided to bring resources from the colonized sistems thus helping the economi moving along by creating more jobs and develop outside the Sol sistem to some degree beause it suited them . more jobs for the colonies and more raw material posibly even cheaper for the industry etc. I mean even cut off the GTA from Sol would have enough resources to build a fleet of juggs similar to the shivan one. They have thye ore from the asteroid belt and the other rock planets in the sistem they have the gasses and they shipyards and research facilaties would be intact. So no resources and money wasted to rebuild those.
So in the Long run i believe that Sol when reconected to the GTVA space would be somewhat more advanced in various areas then the GTVA. I mean they sere as hell had 35 years at they disposab to rpoduce more powerfull variants of the Prometheus cannon. Also with the reamins of the Lucifer at they disposal especialy forward half of it i'm willing to bet they are more advanced in beam canno9n tech then the GTVA!
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Actualy from what i gather for the FS and FS2 the outer sistems that the GTA colonized were rather under developed.
Indeed. According to the FSRefBible, subspace technology was only developed 20 or so years before the start of FS1. That's not a lot of time to form colonies, not unless you had a massive number of emigrants from a severely overpopulated Sol system.
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20 years before FS1 left only 6 years for the technology to spread to the fleet before war would necessitate it being used predominantly by the military. 6 years isnt enough time, IMO, for military tech to spread throughout the populace.
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Is it even possible for the billions of people that it seems like there has to be in the outer systems, to be in the outer systems? It doesn't seem like there'd be enough time
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There's not really that many people in the outer systems, Capella was the most inhabited system outside of Sol and it only had a few million.
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There's not really that many people in the outer systems, Capella was the most inhabited system outside of Sol and it only had a few million.
That was never stated in the game.
Think about it, say there were only 50 million people outside of Sol, then every destroyer blown up would be .2% of the entire population
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That makes alot more sense.
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Okay, according to the FSRefBible, subspace travel was discovered "twenty-two years ago", which would place it in 2313. (For the purposes of the TVWP, we're assuming that means intersystem travel, since that gives us a bit more flexibility. If one were to take it as any sort of subspace travel, then space colonization would have to be very primitive indeed.)
Capella was described as "densely populated" with 250 million civilians, which is 50 million fewer than the number of people in the United States and only four percent of the total number of people living on Earth today.
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Well while I do agree that for the most part the outer sistems were rather uninhabited i'm sure there was a substantial terran presence in the outer sistem just not enough to call them developed enough. I mean its one thing to asume a sistem is developed when it has 1 billion terrans or at least more then 500 million but a totaly different thing when you have one or 2 bilion terrans spread across 10 sistems or more. that would decrease its averall develeopement of the outer sistems. However the amount of peaople in capella sugests to me that a serious amount of colonists have made it out of sol and into the outer sistems just not enough for them to be populated in the serios notion of the word like 400 or 500 million people per planet or more.
Basicly the GTVA could not of hadsuch a large milatary force without a decent amount of civilians from wich to recrute them.
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diffrent weapon systems for diffrent situations
for axsample : for escort missions without any big ship threats arm a fenris (or other ship) with more anti fighter beams and the fusion mortar with harpoon missles.
or change it completely to a missle based cruiser.
also for the bigger ships battles arm it with more ANTI-cap-based weapons.
and so on
also more phobos based capital ships
those ships are almost invincible!
and space colonies aka Gundam wing
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do not necro topics this old. the last post was 8 months ago. let it die if it wants to.
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do not necro topics this old. the last post was 8 months ago. let it die if it wants to.
whats wrong with it its a fine topic!
and sometimes peeps are posting so quick that this topic was just vanished..
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ok, look at the last reply before yours. look at the date.
December 22, 2006, 03:27:04 AM
Now look at the date on your post
July 12, 2007, 11:09:07 AM
no do the math
7 months, 9 days, 7 hours, 32 minutes, and 3 seconds.
that is officially "necromancing".
necromancy is a revival of the dead through forbidden means.
your lucky this is the HPL BB and not some time in the mid 15 century, they beheadded people if they believed they were necromancers.
nercoing threads is just plain impolite. theres no recent action so it gets burried. if it's not searched for within a reasonable period of time, say a week at most, there is no point to revive it. no one wants to look at it, and i certainly didn't want to spend 5 minutes typing this extremely long flame.
sorry if i came off a bit harsh, but being a former admin on a different forum (and i bold that so you dont think i have ever had the honor of leading this wonderful community) i cant take nercoring. i annoys me to no end. once again, sorry, and please, dont nerco.