Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on December 12, 2006, 08:36:31 am
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Old, but still interesting; I think this is most suited to this bit rather than general.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynet has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
“They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” the army says.
Fans of the popular roleplaying game had spoken of rumors of this strange policy by the IDF, but now the army has confirmed that it has a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as problematic in regard to their draft status.
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Sandwich, do you play D&D? :p
If so have you told anyone? :lol:
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I play DnD and I think enhances your strategic ability. 'Specially if you're a ranger.
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>IDF rolls D20 for initiative against Hamas
>Initiative successful, roll for damage
>IDF wields Superior F-16 of Asskicking, rolls for damage D10+2
>IDF deals 8 damage to Hamas
If you ask me, IDF command should switch their whole planning system to D20 for ease of use, intercompatability and verstility.
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“They're detached from reality and susceptible to influence,” the army says.
And there I was thinking that part of a soldiers training was to desensitize them to killing people and following orders...
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I think that's a blind-sider they've come away with. What it probably means is that they can see the big picture, and might actually question their orders.
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Uhh...
1) No, I never played D&D in any form. Stayed away from it, mainly due to my Messianic Jewish/Christian/whatever-you-want-to-call-it upbringing.
2) While I can't speak for elite units, standard combat soldier training in the IDF is all about discipline - during basic. Follow orders, know the procedures, be comitted to the service. In advanced training (which immediately follows basic training, natch), the discipline aspect is greatly dropped (you start to call your sergents and immediate officers by first name instead of rank; incidentally, in the public school system it's the same, where you call teachers by first name, not "Mr./Mrs. McCready"). Instead, advanced training focuses on personal excellence in combat, first the personal-level training maneuvers, then squad-level (3 ppl), unit-level (11 ppl), company-level (~35 ppl), etc. You also learn whatever non-generic stuff you need for your position, both on the personal level (AT, mortar, HMG, sharpshooter) as well as the larger scale (combat engineers learn about explosives, mines & minefields, AT obstacles, etc).
The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.
Back on topic, however, I can see how they would get such an impression from D&D players. The few I've known have seemed to be obsessed with the game to the point where nearly everything they encounter and say is filtered through "D&D-colored" glasses.
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The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.
I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces. Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? :)
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I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces. Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? :)
Or maybe because they're cheaper to manufacture, and easier to replace, than full-sized mannequins. >_>
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Are you advocating using captured Pals for target practice, aldo? That's cold man, for real.
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The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.
I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces. Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? :)
Hmm... there may be something to that, but consider that an Israeli soldier regularly comes face to face with those potential "enemies" while not in a combat situation on a daily basis. We look them in the eyes, talk with them, and many of us, in our civilian lives, work alongside them every day. They're people, irrevocably intertwined into our lives as we are in theirs, and no amount of army brainwashing will be able to overcome that experience of living with them side-by-side.
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The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.
I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces. Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? :)
Hmm... there may be something to that, but consider that an Israeli soldier regularly comes face to face with those potential "enemies" while not in a combat situation on a daily basis. We look them in the eyes, talk with them, and many of us, in our civilian lives, work alongside them every day. They're people, irrevocably intertwined into our lives as we are in theirs, and no amount of army brainwashing will be able to overcome that experience of living with them side-by-side.
That makes desensitization even more important. It's a fundamental part of any army to stop their troops seeing enemies as other people, because hesitation gets troops killed, and I'd imagine for exactly the reasons you state that the IDF will have batteries of people dedicated to, in a combat situation, making sure troops are not thinking 'I'm shooting at people', but 'I'm shooting at targets' (kind of crude simplification). Ultimately, it's not brainwashing so much as conditioning, anyways, and I'm not suggesting it'd be something unique to the IDF.
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the us army hasn't used traditional desensitization as it's primary anti hesitation weapon for years
in training they stress the family makeup of your unit, make you believe on some level you are family, a tribe, because the easiest way to get a person to defend someone else with deadly force, is to make that person their family
certainly there is a certain amount of desentization, but much less than there used to be, and that is because it is simply less effective
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I think the point is that any army does require the soldier to conform to certain things...Always follow orders... obey the chain of command... that the soldier must be prepared to kill when it's required of him/her.
So getting back to the original point, saying that an applicant is unsuitable for the armed forces because they may be more "suscetible to influence" as a result of playing DnD seems very strange indeed.
That said I don't know the full story. Perhaps there were other factors involved that we don't know.
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I actually played a lot of D&D while *in* the army :) Good way to pass time in the evenings, since it required zero physical effort and we were mostly too tired at the end of the day after doing maintenance, cleaning etc. to actually do stuff once we were on our own time. Was nice to just sit down with my roommates in a corner at the (after 8pm nearly deserted) base cafeteria and relax with some D&D. Of course, it was only after we were through basic training that we really had much time for it, during basic things were quite a bit stricter.
Thinking about it, I dare say it might possibly even have made us better soldiers in the end because we weren't out getting stoned or drunk, helped us get de-stressed so we were better prepared for the next day, made us bond better and gave us an opportunity to discuss whatever we had just been through if any of us were in doubt about anything.
Still, I also dare say that military service here is quite a bit less serious than in Israel. Not the actual training mind you, that's serious and demanding enough (though it's a lot shorter here for most types of units, as the compulsory service is mainly just training and no actual deployment etc.), but there's just not that thing hanging over your head that you might just have to go fight for your life at any time. No states next door with our destruction on their agenda. And that's a big difference.
If there was, I can see how the brass might be inclined to just not take the risk with something they don't understand. After all, if real lives are at stake, you want to play it safe even if there probably isn't an issue. And it's not like D&D hasn't been vilified plenty by various parties over the years, so all it would take was for some person in the right place to read the wrong article and you've got a policy like this.
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"D&D-colored" glasses.
commonly referred to as LARP'ers
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It's probably simply that they reckon that if you play D&D you're a devil worshipper and therefore not safe to hold a gun in the first place.
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no amount of army civilian brainwashing will be able to overcome that experience of living with them side-by-side.
Um, 1930s Mississippi?
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'I can't go fight out there, do you realise the damage the Sun will do to my Drow armour??'
;)
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all of the d&d freaks ive ran into were pretty far seporated from reality, more obsessed with the fantasy aspect than the actual gameplay. i see no harm in playing the game, its basicly a numbers game with a strategy aspect. when you start acting out your roles and become a troll or whatever for the duration of the game (and for at least 2 hours after), then your perception of reality needs to be questioned. im sure if youre superior asks if you play d&d and you say on occasion, i doubt youl set off any red flags. but if you enter into a 5 minute monolog about your role/the last game you played/and the best way to kill an elf, im sure hes gonna take note. ive never played d&d and i doubt i ever will. i perfer games where you blow things up :D
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commonly referred to as LARP'ers lunatics
D20-based systems are against my religion anyways.
/me waves Palladium Books flag.
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>IDF rolls D20 for initiative against Hamas
>Initiative successful, roll for damage
>IDF wields Superior F-16 of Asskicking, rolls for damage D10+2
>IDF deals 8 damage to Hamas
If you ask me, IDF command should switch their whole planning system to D20 for ease of use, intercompatability and verstility.
I'd make for much reasonable policies for Israel, the US, and Iran :p
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I've been playing D&D and other rolyplaying games (World of Darkness, the Serenity RPG, I LARPed in a game called Ampgard, played different MUDs including Achaea and Dune3, roleplayed in EVE, WoW, and EQ, all to lesser extents) for about 6 or 7 years now. I've seen all kinds in those experiences. People who truly have lost touch with some points in reality, people who barely roleplayed at all and ONLY played for the nitty gritty aspect of D&D (power-gamers, all.) And I've seen those who are very ballanced in their roleplay and their approach to the nitty gritty.
And I've realized something over time: yes... D&D does ATTRACT people who WANT to lose touch with reality, but not everyone who plays D&D has. And those people who DO play in order to escape reality do so because of underlying problems in their lives, not because of the game.
As for the attack on LARPers, etc... I find it hilarious. What are actors? What is a war-game? It's just silly to say that if you pretend to be anything you're not then you must have a weak personality.
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the us army hasn't used traditional desensitization as it's primary anti hesitation weapon for years
in training they stress the family makeup of your unit, make you believe on some level you are family, a tribe, because the easiest way to get a person to defend someone else with deadly force, is to make that person their family
certainly there is a certain amount of desentization, but much less than there used to be, and that is because it is simply less effective
What about untraditional desensitization? :)
(...)
Also, combat isn't always about defence; you can't have soldiers hesitating to provoke conflict, after all. Yes, of course they will emphasise team-bonding et al (it's useful for discipline, too), but I'd wager any money that you still need desensitization to get soldiers to use disproportionate force to a threat.
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what ive learned if anything is a computer game is not life and some take it seriously, when im playing a alot of other games i carry my suicide tactic into everygame, except C&C renegade, i cant use it there. but who would want to carry that computer game tactic into rl?
only the hardcore gamer unfortunatly, and nothing can be done about it.
its a chamical misbalance in the brain :no:, but there is nothing physically wrong with you. desensitsation is a must.
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You know... after thinking about it, couldn't it easily be said that people who ar really into paintball are LARPers? =/
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Yes.
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the us army hasn't used traditional desensitization as it's primary anti hesitation weapon for years
in training they stress the family makeup of your unit, make you believe on some level you are family, a tribe, because the easiest way to get a person to defend someone else with deadly force, is to make that person their family
certainly there is a certain amount of desentization, but much less than there used to be, and that is because it is simply less effective
What about untraditional desensitization? :)
(...)
Also, combat isn't always about defence; you can't have soldiers hesitating to provoke conflict, after all. Yes, of course they will emphasise team-bonding et al (it's useful for discipline, too), but I'd wager any money that you still need desensitization to get soldiers to use disproportionate force to a threat.
that's why I said primary :D
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You know... after thinking about it, couldn't it easily be said that people who ar really into paintball are LARPers? =/
Not for D&D , but yes.. They are playing "Army" like you use to do as a kid with squirt guns... :lol:
I use to be 98c (Signals Intelligence Analyst) by day, and Star Dragon the Cavalier at night... Half our group was Army the other half was Air Force (we had one Token Navy guy...)
Seriously Sandwich (4 years, always wanted to say that :p) There's nothing like getting a headshot and yelling out "CRIT!" Unless you're in a black op situation or what not... Try it sometime! :lol:
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Seriously Sandwich (4 years, always wanted to say that :p) There's nothing like getting a headshot and yelling out "CRIT!" Unless you're in a black op situation or what not... Try it sometime! :lol:
...:wtf: :p
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So, Sandwich, .40 cal, or .50 cal?
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In my avatar? .50cal Browning. NOT to be fired from the hip unless one does not value said hip. :p
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Mounted on a tripod-deal right?
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Mounted on a tripod-deal right?
Of course not; you tie it to your balls with a length of string and fire it from that position. :rolleyes:
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Really? ........ :rolleyes:
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the closest thing I ever did too any kind of role play that was like "I am this person; I must live like him" was in Freelancer. I joined the outcasts on this one RPG server, but I had a liberty battleship, so it was kinda null. IIRC, I was also a weapons dealer, but all that fizzled out after I remembered that I had a real life.
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Okay, so if people who played RPGs cant get into the army, wouldnt people who played a lot of FPS or RTS games be actively searched for by the army?
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I think the idea may be that people who play a lot of fps and a lot of rts might seek out the army on their own
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Mounted on a tripod-deal right?
Yeah, but more commonly found on a tank or APC.
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:)
I prefer the P90 though.
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Yes, let's mount a P90 on a tank...
:p :)
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That's the great thing about the P90. It comes with a standard scope, it's lightweight, and kicks major enemy ass (after going through a sheet of titanium and 20 layers of kevlar, the bullet shot from a P90 still had enough force to kill someone roughtly 30 feet away :nervous: ;7).
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freelancer has kept me occupied for years, i usually use my suicide tactic doesnt stop me in most case, well except pvp where you press z turn around afterburn back strafe and fire, same thing for another 10-40 times the player is dead, you run off :rolleyes:. i want to join the army soon, im sitting at home bored out my mind with work.
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They only asked if I was: Using Drugs, Massively in Debt, Working for a Foreign Power, Was a Conscientious Objector, a Communist, or GAY...
Not if I was a RPG gamer...
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I'd love to get Freelancer. I was "borrowing the game from a friend to see if I wanted to play the game." Now that it's only ten bucks at Best Buy, I'll probably get it for that...
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as you know the Suirus sector doesnt stop moving. you like to go star hugging or planet hugging? then good il join you :p. also watch for big transport ships near planets like manhatten of new berlin, then for some reason the transport ship flys into the planet and explodes. hehe.
Edison Trent. funny character treated like a idoit but he dont mind.
go get it!, 5.70quid around that conversion currency. thats a good price and wont be around for long.
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yea, I know...