Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: miskat on December 13, 2006, 07:26:51 am
-
So I've become infatuated with Freespace.
I blame that on everyone at this board. Er... thank you.
Anyway, I bought a joystick and am very happy with it. It's the Logitech Attack 3. Nothing special, just a cheap solution since I can't stand using the mouse and the keyboard is nowhere near precise enough for me. Unfortunately the joystick lacks something that I've deemed a must... the "3D" rotation. That twist you can do to control rudders in flight sims. I want it, and I want it to control my barrel rolls.
So I did some searching on the forums and found a few companies mentioned: CH, Saitek, and Logitech were the big 3. Seems Logitech joysticks break and stop functioning after about 6 months... not sure what the census on the Saitek sticks were, but it seems like the Cyborg Evo is pretty nice (not the Force feedback one... heard there was problems with that) but fairly hard to get ahold of. And CH... much much too expensive. And do any of their sticks actually have the rotation?
Anyway... with bad reviews coming from damn near everywhere, I was wondering if someone had a recommendation for a decent joystick. It need not have any buttons on the base, I'm going to use my Nostromo for that, but lots of thump and index finger accessable controls are nice. And rotation.... *sighs* And dare I hope for anything long-lasting? I don't generally beat the crap out of my equipment, but I hate it when it seems that people hardwire expiration dates into stuff. XD
Thanks in advance all, I've been pulling my hair out here.
-
I can testify to the Cyborg Evo being a good stick; of course, it could never replace my venerable old MS Sidewinder 3D Pro, but I enjoy using it nonetheless. I've been using it off-and-on for about two-and-a-half years now, and it still works fine. As for where to find one, they seem to be available via Saitek's website.
Regarding CH, I can't speak for them myself, but from what I've heard from people who've used them, they're worth every penny durability-wise.
-
Cyborg Evo is godly.
I wish I had the X52 though... :nervous:
-
Go with the Saitek joystick. I bought a cheapo ST290 Pro, and it works like a dream. I also have an old P880. I've stepped on it, kicked it, and nearly busted the wire dragging near my feet. The thing's bullet-proof. Trust me, go with Saitek.
-
Saitek.
-
So it looks like Saitek's Cyborg Evo might be the way to go. Now the question is, since the wireless model is out of the question (replacing 2xAA batteries all the time is something I already do with my mouse... and HATE it) should I hunt down the original Cyborg Evo, or is the Force feedback one worth the extra $s?
How good is FS2_open's force feedback implementation, anyway?
-
I have had no problem using the Cyborg Evo Force model, although I don't use it to play FreeSpace.
I've played too much using the keyboard to start using another interface.
-
Don't go Force Feedback. Force Feedback makes it harder to maneuver your fighter. I have force feedback, but I never use it.
-
saitek is really the only company out there i know that is still makeing good sticks. i hear ch is pretty good but never owned one of their sticks before.
-
I want an x52 for I-War2
-
If you happen to have Ace Combat 5, and were fortunate enough to get the special addition with the USB flight stick and throttle, try using that. I recently found the driver to make it work with my PC and I'm having a blast with it. Granted, you have to map the buttons to your liking, but its a nice alternative to actually buying a new joystick if you have it already.
-
Doesn't fs2_open have freelancer-style mouse-control these days? If yes, then what's the point in buying a joystick just for one game? :p Granted, it has been a year since I last played FS2 in any form, but if my MS Sidewinder Precision Pro breaks, it is unlikely I'll be getting a new stick.
-
Way back when I first got my hands on a retail copy of FS1+ST I played with a mouse. When I started playing again recently, I found that I just couldn't stand having to drag the mouse, pick it up, reposition it, drag again. And keyboard just isn't precise enough for me. So currently I use a joystick most of the time and use the mouse when I need ultra-precise shots (long range, mostly.)
Just got done configuring my Nostromo n52 for use in FSO alongside my joystick and now I'm not so sure I need to go get a new one. =/ XD
Huzzah for the Nostromo.
-
Funny you should mention buying sticks for one game, Fury...I know several Descenters who have bought up a couple unopened MS Sidewinder 3D Pros on eBay, just so they have backups for if/when their current 3D Pro finally bites the dust. :p
-
Yep, Saitek all the way. The X52 was the best money I've ever spent on a PC device. Now I'm eagerly waiting for the X52 Pro to start shipping.
-
Doesn't fs2_open have freelancer-style mouse-control these days? If yes, then what's the point in buying a joystick just for one game? :p Granted, it has been a year since I last played FS2 in any form, but if my MS Sidewinder Precision Pro breaks, it is unlikely I'll be getting a new stick.
tried to implement it through scripting and failed miserably. i believe its on the to do list, pending post 3.6.9 pilot file changes.
the only reason i own an x-52, is because i play alot of flight sims.
-
Don't go Force Feedback. Force Feedback makes it harder to maneuver your fighter. I have force feedback, but I never use it.
I prefer Force Feedback... sure it might be "harder" to maneuver but I love my force feedback! Nothing like feeling what happens.
I always have it fully on. Max up the forces...
It's a Logitech Wingman Force 3D... 7-buttons, 6-way stick (forward/back, left/right, twist handle), 8-way HAT, and a good throttle at the base. I can't play flightsims or freespace without it! Once I got used to forcefeedback, I can't play anything now without it! Most games support it.
If you just hate force feedback, then stay away from it i guess. You have to have the stick in an AC Adapter and centre-spring relies on the force feedback to be on. Only complaint with my stick is it seems to "grind" when I turn for longer times. Watchout as it moves by itself if Autopilot is on, or if there is a collision or a hit on the ship. Rather cool, though... it takes some getting used-to.
-
I had a lot of problem with Logitech controllers (I had a Wingman Extreme, an Attack and an Attack 3, they all had a lot of problems since I bought them). Some months ago, when I almost threw my Attack 3 out of the window, I bought a Trust GM-2500 Predator for only 25 €. And it hasn't given me any problem yet. And, for the first time, I have a joystick with a rudder and the POV controller (actually, also the Wingman Extreme had the POV controller, but I never used it... :rolleyes:).
-
I had that same stick myself, Bob; only trouble is, after a year or two of relatively light use, it started going utterly ballistic every time I plugged it in, particularly the twist function. I wish you better luck with yours.
-
I've had it for three or so years now. The twist is a bit annoying sometimes, but it is overall a good stick. I have to have the base correct or I unconsciously twist it...
I just hate the fact that it has no traditional spring; the forcefeedback-spring seems a bit too loose.
-
I have a saitek cyborg evo force. It is really awesome. Get it.
EDIT: Unless someone already said it, get a USB joystick. Gameports are sorta dieing out...
-
I bought a Saitek ST290 Pro just for Freespace 2. :)
I also have a Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D Digital. Its twist sometimes needs to be rocked back and forth a couple times to settle it down when I start a game session. This is my second WE3DD stick. The first one absolutely would not calibrate the twist and I'd go corkscrewing along in any game that used the twist function unless I held it twisted off to the right. (Sorta like flying a P51-D Mustang, with extra turbocharging and nitrous oxide injection...)
I also have a Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro. Why MS made that beast gameport only, when they'd already introduced a USB version of the Sidewinder... The motors are so frigging big it looks like it could break your wrist. ;)
For the Sidewinder 3D Pro die-hards, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder and http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?t=7090 The person who built the USB converter isn't making more, but you can get the info to build your own. (Now if only someone would cook up same for the FF Pro!)
I think that forum thread also has some posts on how people have got the 3D Pro to work with XP by manually installing a standard 2-axis, 2 button stick, hooking up the Sidewinder, which gets detected as a 2-axis, 2 button stick- then deleting the first one they manually installed. Then XP smacks itself upside the head and recognizes the Sidewinder. You need the switch on the front of the base in the middle, between the | and ||.
I have an ADB version of the Sidewinder 3D Pro, but never could get it to work with Apple's Game Sprockets drivers or anything else on any Mac I tried it on. I have an ADB to USB adaptor that works with Mac mice and keyboards on Windows, I suppose drivers could be written for the ADB Sidewinder, or that it might possibly work on a Mac with the USB Overdrive drivers.
Most Force Feedback sticks have a sensor that prevents the stick from moving when there's no hand on it. CH uses a photocell on the right side of the handle while the Sidewinder has an IR emitter and sensor pair above and below the grip. Your fingers block the beam when your hand is on it. the CH one could be 'fooled' by a sufficiently dark room.
-
YAY, another who uses an ST290 Pro!!!!
-
I use an ST290 as well :) Nice stick, except my number 4 button stopped working :(
-
I'm a proud owner of a CH Fighter stick and a throttle. Very pricey but for its price these things are built like tanks. Even over 3 years constant abuse these things still work like it did from day one.
-
I use the Steel Battalion controller. The driver that some guy wrote is really great that you can tweak so much on the stick with all of the buttons. You can literally program the entire keyboard onto the panel if you wanted to get nuts with it. I love it. I've played more Freespace now with it, than I have Steel Battalion. It's the only PC game I play, actually.
-
Why would you want to program all those buttons in?
-
Why would you want to program all those buttons in?
So, I can sit back on my couch and not have to have a keyboard around. I use close to a majority of the targeting controls and energy management stuff, so I need more than 32 buttons. (1-9 and f1-f12 for squad assignment). You can turn mods on, so flicking a switch can literally change every function of every button and joystick.
-
I like sitting right in front of my computer thank you very much.
-
i have a Wingman Force 3D... and it was just about unusable for any game until i found http://www.wingmanteam.com/ (http://www.wingmanteam.com/). there are some great programs on there for tweaking sensitivity, dead spots and stuff. because there's no real centering spring, there is a big "loose" section in the center of x, y and z. with the tweaker from that site you can adjust it to ignore that area, and adjust the response angle. i <3 it. I play with Force Feedback on, and it only really annoys me when i'm firing my afterburners. its nice getting feedback when firing missiles and guns, but getting whacked by flak sucks a lot.
oh and it just ticked over 2007 here. happy new year. (wow its sad i'm on here on new years eve)
-
Hehe, I have a Logitech WingMan Extreme, have had it 3 years, still works like a charm, cept not a charm, since they don't do anything.
-
My big question with joysticks is the mounting of them. In the past when attempting to use one on the desktop, it would shift, flop around, and generally was a pita to use, so I gave it up and avoided playing Freespace for years because I figured there was no point without one.
Now I'm playing it on easy with the mouse (I played Descent1&2 with the mouse for years, but most Descent levels have a 2D design, and in addition one of the dos mouse drivers allowed extremely high acceleration rate settings, so lifting the mouse up and setting it down did not occur so often. In Freespace I'm constantly having to reposition the mouse).
What are people doing to mount joysticks onto the desk? Are there commercial mounting systems for joysticks? I can also see that I'd have to have it mounted at a slight angle as the desktop is fairly high.
rms
-
Have you thought about something like this (http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-4/qid=1167682813/ref=sr_1_4/602-7351409-6029459?ie=UTF8&asin=B0000A1Y5A), or maybe some silicone sticky feet? If your joystick isn't heavy enough they may not help though.
-
Heh, I just bought myself a PS2 pad to USB converter for Xmas. It's working out great so far! :nod: ;)
-
Yeah, I got 5 of those at Radio Shack for 6 bucks each I think it was.
-
Regarding mounting, I'm one of the only people I know to do this, but I actually play with the joystick in my lap. (Insert innuendo here :p) In my mind, it gives you the greatest degree of direct control and stability, with the added bonus of simulating the positioning of a real flight stick. I picked up this tip from someone in the Descent community years ago, and I've used it with success ever since. The only caveat I will add is that my configs for both Descent and Freespace are designed to use the keyboard as little as possible, so keep that in mind. Also, for sticks that have bases not exactly conducive to resting comfortably in one's lap (such as my own Cyborg Evo), I've found that using a large hardcover book (such as a textbook) as a base does the job fine.
-
I'm using a Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox 2 Pro USB stick and I love it. I also used to have a MS Sidewinder 3D that I liked but it had serious issues and I never really got to use the digital features of the stick much. The Thrustmaster is great though.
-
My experience with joysticks in general and CH sticks in particular.
My (dad's) very first joystick was a CH flightstick. It had 2 buttons and a throttle. I never had any problems with it at all and the only reason I'm not still using it is my new computer doesn't have an old gameport to plug it into.
Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pro: the perfect joystick for the casual gamer. I wish they still made it. Also fell prey to gameport obsolescence. (sp?)
Saitek Cyborg: Felt and controlled like a cheap piece of crap, broke quickly, returned with no questions asked. If you do get an EVO, keep the reciept.
Logitech Extreme 3D and Logitech dual stick pad (I forget the name): Look great, control decently, poorly placed throttle. Eerily, they both broke down on the same day. They're (relatively) cheap for a reason.
Xbox 360 controller: suprisingly playable if you keep the difficulty down. I used the left stick for flight control and the right stick for throttle. Unfortunately, the triggers are only recognized as another axis so you have to use the shoulder buttons to shoot which can be a little uncomfortable. Some games are really touchy about the Sidewinder's analog sticks. If they ever released some kind of profiling software for this thing they'd have the ultimate general purpose PC controller on the market, but I think they'd rather not provide an alternative to buying their console.
CH Combatstick: Really lightweight, doesn't look like much at all. The first impression is ho-hum. Since it's based on the F-16 for dimensions, that upper-right hat is a stretch to reach. Then I downloaded the profiling software. Using the "shift" key function I can map EVERY BUTTON I NEED to the joystick. HOTAS without the throttle. Plus the stick is completely reliable and quirk-free. Expensive, but the use of USB ports will die before this stick will. No stick twist, you've gotta use the "rotate" button oldskool.
Note that you can get CH sticks for much cheaper from amazon than buying direct from CH (I got mine for about $90, not including shipping.)
-
:wtf:
-
I have never had any problem with my saitek cyborg EVO, and that has good profiling software with shift buttons as well.
As for my previous stick, as Logitech wingman extreme, it went wrong very quickly with the centre of the stick movment being outside the central zone for the software, so I was having to hold the stick to one side to keep things straight.
-
Let me clarify, I tried the Saitek Cyborg 3D. I did not try the EVO. For all I know that's a wonderful stick. But from my own experience with the Cyborg 3D... keep the receipt.
-
Logitech sticks are horrific abominations of the simulator industry. Never, ever get one. It WILL break on you within a few weeks. I got a brand new one of them (Extreme 3D), didn't use it for a week, turned it on and bam, already had lost two of my buttons - from it just sitting there.
Like I said before though, I use an ST290. Great stick for $20, fully functional, durable (have only lost one button after about a year and a half of use).
-
bah, 2 of the lights on my x52 went out. piece of ****, next time im getting ch :D
-
I've been using the same CH Flightstick Pro for about 10 years now. It has one hat controller (cannot use both directions at the same time - the only thing to nitpick about), four buttons and throttle. I have never had any problems with it. I don't know about the current quality of CH sticks, but it seems that in the long run you might end up saving a lot when buying a single expensive system that lasts long.
Mika
-
For those with outdated gameport sticks...
you can get a USB adapter down at RadioShack for about $15
to put it back into service. Many other electronics parts stores have
them available online as well.
You'll have to set the stick up using Windows game controllers (in control panel)
setting the axis and button controls... also note that any force feedback that you
once had will be gone.
From what I've read, the MS Force Feedback Pro stick did have a short
run where MS included a USB adapter with the Gamport version.... and this
did allow for the FF to be kept. How I don't know - but eBay's your best chance for one.
-
Logitech is the only one that i know of that currently has force-feedback offerings. Microsoft had a short run with the stick with MS FS7 *Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000*, which sparked my interest, and so I bought the less-expensive Logitech model for about a third the price.
-
For those with outdated gameport sticks...
you can get a USB adapter down at RadioShack for about $15
to put it back into service. Many other electronics parts stores have
them available online as well.
You'll have to set the stick up using Windows game controllers (in control panel)
setting the axis and button controls... also note that any force feedback that you
once had will be gone.
From what I've read, the MS Force Feedback Pro stick did have a short
run where MS included a USB adapter with the Gamport version.... and this
did allow for the FF to be kept. How I don't know - but eBay's your best chance for one.
The downside with these is that 'digital' sticks like the Logitech Wingman Thingy and Sidewinder 3D Pro loose a lot of their functionality. As someone mentioned above, Grendle from the descentbb forums made a custom 'board for the Sidewinder; It even had a little Pyro laser-etched onto it :D
Alas they sold out ridiculously quickly, so the only option now is DIY using his instructions :(
A lot of people always why I stick with my ancient game-port 3D Pro, but it's basically down to feel. The ergonomics are just right for me. It presents the same smooth tension in all directions because it uses a single spring, and the optical sensors are as accurate as the day I bought it (Why modern sticks, even the ridiculously expensive Cougar, still use ****ty pots I'll never know!)
I really hate the feel of almost all modern sticks - The spring tensions either tend to force the stick horizontally or vertically which makes accuracy a pain, or the deflection is far too high from edge to edge. The Saiteks are nice, but they're let down by being slightly too bulky for my hands, which gets very uncomfortable in longer games. Also, I kept breaking the rubber thingy and the plastic collar the Saiteks use for the tension...
-
Hmm, just found this, you might find it interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_components_and_accessories
..Apparently, you can use any XBOX controller with you PC, as long as you download the drivers from MS? And they have a wireless adapter for ~$20 that allows you to use the 360 wireless controllers as well? Hmm... What do you guys think?
EDIT: Oh, and try searching gameport converter usb on eBay (http://www.ebay.com), what do you think of that?
EDIT2: Re-read the posts here more thoroughly. Oops... you already knew all that :nervous:
@rms: You use D2X-XL (http://www.descent2.de)?
-
Hmm... What do you guys think?
Shiny.
EDIT: Though it won't work near well enough as mouse & keyboard, it might be useful for getting console gamers back where they belong...
-
EDIT: Though it won't work near well enough as mouse & keyboard, it might be useful for getting console gamers back where they belong...
:lol:
Very true! :D Long live the PC Game!
-
Has anyone here tried to play FS2 with steering wheel and pedals???
I'm just curious as I have a Playstation Steering wheel and pedals collecting dust here and just wondered if I should give it a try with my Playstation to USB convertor? (I'm also thinking of reloading Colin McRae Rally2 onto my PC and giving that a try with the steering wheel! ;) )
-
I'd say go for it with the pedals, though leave the wheel out of it!
Got a joystick?